Originally by: Shintai

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Edited by: Shintai on 03/06/2008 10:07:10
Making a drama out of an incomplete context?

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without removing the ability to make premeditated strikes and so on. There's a balance to be struck that's close to what we have currently, but not exactly the same."

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Read everything next time.

Oh, and complaining? Let me guess. You want easy risk free and cost free iskies? because real pvP is too hard for you? Oh cry more to your mommy!

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Originally by: Jmanis Catharg

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Edited by: Jmanis Catharg on 03/06/2008 14:50:40
I love how everyone reads the bolded:

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Greyscale: Before anyone jumps to conclusions, what we're mainly looking at is small, common-sense adjustments to tune down the randomized griefing and opportunistic free lunch attacks without removing the ability to make premeditated strikes and so on. There's a balance to be struck that's close to what we have currently, but not exactly the same."

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and not

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Greyscale: Before anyone jumps to conclusions, what we're mainly looking at is small, common-sense adjustments to tune down the randomized griefing and opportunistic free lunch attacks without removing the ability to make premeditated strikes and so on. There's a balance to be struck that's close to what we have currently, but not exactly the same."

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Christ, mountain, meet molehill.

End of the day, only reason why this carebear has a fat wallet is because all the PvPers buy my ships and weapons.

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Originally by: Exlegion

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Edited by: Exlegion on 03/06/2008 20:08:58
Bellum Eternus,

There's a difference between a playstyle and plain out griefing. That you choose to ignore the difference is all on you. Don't come here and defend griefing as a legitimate play style just as any other play style. Because it just isn't.

And forget the high sec 'stupid' people, as you call them. What I want is consequences for your actions for breaking the laws in high sec. Slaps in the hands for silly "lulz" obviously isn't cutting it anymore.

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Originally by: Faife

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Edited by: Faife on 03/06/2008 20:12:09
OP: the phrase "before anyone jumps to conclusion" does NOT mean "please immediately jump to conclusion like a ********"

i'm guessing english is your 4th language? if so, grats, you're almost fluent. much better than me in my fourth.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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The mere fact that they've (Devs, CCP. Greyscale is their mouthpiece here, verbalizing approved content that *must* have been signed off on and approved by his superiors. They wouldn't have just let him run his mouth about any random thing, right? Right?) put this information out there is a perfectly valid reason to be alarmed.

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Hell, I can remember when warp to 0km was on the test server and the devs were saying 'oh, this is just to test the idea, it's not going on TQ', and the players were thinking 'yeah, there's just no way they'd do something this stupid'. And now we have WTZ.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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Originally by: Exlegion

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Edited by: Exlegion on 03/06/2008 20:08:58
Bellum Eternus,

There's a difference between a playstyle and plain out griefing. That you choose to ignore the difference is all on you. Don't come here and defend griefing as a legitimate play style just as any other play style. Because it just isn't.

And forget the high sec 'stupid' people, as you call them. What I want is consequences for your actions for breaking the laws in high sec. Slaps in the hands for silly "lulz" obviously isn't cutting it anymore.

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There is. Security hits are very real consequences. It takes quite a while to rat your sec back up, and not everyone is in a 0.0 carebear alliance where they can spend all week fixing their sec as fast as possible with little risk.

How about if CCP removed insurance payouts? Then popping a hauler with a BC wouldn't cost you 8m or so, it would cost you 25-30m or more. The only rub is that CCP would have to remove ALL insurance payouts to ALL ships, to make it fair. I'm willing to accept such a change. Are the rest of the carebears? After all, a change like this would only hurt the less skilled players in Eve. And by skilled, I'm not talking about skillpoints.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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The mere fact that they've (Devs, CCP. Greyscale is their mouthpiece here, verbalizing approved content that *must* have been signed off on and approved by his superiors. They wouldn't have just let him run his mouth about any random thing, right? Right?) put this information out there is a perfectly valid reason to be alarmed.

Hell, I can remember when warp to 0km was on the test server and the devs were saying 'oh, this is just to test the idea, it's not going on TQ', and the players were thinking 'yeah, there's just no way they'd do something this stupid'. And now we have WTZ.

IMO CCP has already made up it's mind about how they're going to nerf high sec attacks (no, it's not 'griefing') and they're just slowly getting the sheep in Eve (i.e. the general population) acclimated to the idea.

So yeah, the last time they made any 'small, common-sense adjustments' to Eve, we had a 20% damage reduction to high damage ammo, a 25% increase in HP, drone bandwidth introduced, the removale of drone shield recharge upon scooping, the castration of sensor damps... the list goes on.

The whole point of the post is to nip this garbage in the bud, before it can go anywhere, but I still don't see that happening. I think CCP will just ignore it and f#ck it up anyway.

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Originally by: Maalan

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I just say we add the ability for manufacturers to not allow someone to buy their stuff based on standing. Then the suiciders would suddenly find a lot less to buy on the market...

Though this would probably fail miserably between the Goons infrastructure and greedy manufacturers...

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Originally by: CCP Wrangler

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There's a Community petition category??

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Originally by: Sergeant Spot

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One detail that never ceases to amaze me in this debate are number of knuckle dragging idiots that talk about using "available defense options"

Word to the wise: There are Two, and ONLY Two defense options that are truly effective:
--Fly a ship that gets into warp so fast they dont have time to scan you, and use warp to zero.
--Fly empty (or at least no more than a few million in cargo value if in a tough ship)

That means Frigates, shuttles and Blockade runners.

NOTHING can "defend" a Frieghter. The defence a reasonable escort group can make in the time that the combat is decided is "nearly" meaningless.

and the notion that no frieghter should EVER fly with cargo EVEN IN EMPIRE, unless escorted, is just too stupid for words...... (and yes, thats what the "defend yourself" morons are basicly suggesting, regardless of if they admit it or not....)

The idea that every time a ship undocks with more than 100mil in cargo, he should have a combat escort is even more brain dead, and once again, thats whats some fools are effectively suggesting, regardless of if they admit it or not.

And its a whole additional magnitude of stupidity to actually expect players to choose between "Not hauling cargo" and "making several friends fly escort just move a 100mil worth of stuff in empire".

Carebearism in 0.5+ empire is ftw. THATS WHERE THE CAREBEARISM IS SUSPOSE TO BE. If you dont like it, LEAVE EMPIRE.

I live in 0.0, and have for a long time, but I never lost any sleep over empire carebearism, and never will. On the contrary, I was pleased that a ruthless game Eve could support varied styles of play.

That ability of Eve to support such varied styles of play is severely threatened. To be clear, it is NOT threatened simply by "Suicide Ganking" (which has always exitsed). It is threatened by "Common, Casual and Cheap Suicide Ganking"

Eve Needs to return to as it was. 0.5+ Suicide ganking Should not be common, it should not be casual and it should not be cheap. Having said that, "Focused, Rare, and Expensive" suicide ganking is cool. Everyone like to take part in, or read about a brillant plan successfully concluded (except maybe the target....)

Common, Casual and Cheap Suicide ganking in 0.5+ needs to cease to exist. Let em suicide gank, suicide ganking is fine, but NOT if it is "Common, Casual and Cheap".

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Originally by: Mangtoos

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If that's the case, then stupid people will always remain stupid. Changing game mechanics will not infuse them with intellegence.

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Originally by: Sarin Adler

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Remove Concord kill insurance payment and it's fixed, this has been suggested bazillion times, CCP why the heck don't you do it? Do you like exploiters!?

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Originally by: Chaos Space Marines

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Do you hear the voices, too?!?!

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Originally by: Haakkon

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I feel a great deal of patriotism at being a part of Goonswarm. We've accomplished great things... we're just mainly jerks about it

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Originally by: Tarminic

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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The mere fact that they've (Devs, CCP. Greyscale is their mouthpiece here, verbalizing approved content that *must* have been signed off on and approved by his superiors. They wouldn't have just let him run his mouth about any random thing, right? Right?) put this information out there is a perfectly valid reason to be alarmed.

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So the devs are not allowed to discuss what may or may not be considering adding to the drawing board without corporate approval first? I don't believe that is true.

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Hell, I can remember when warp to 0km was on the test server and the devs were saying 'oh, this is just to test the idea, it's not going on TQ', and the players were thinking 'yeah, there's just no way they'd do something this stupid'. And now we have WTZ.

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WTZ was dumb? Really? So you miss copying hundreds of bookmarks in order to survive in low-sec or 0.0? Or do you perhaps miss the additional database lag?

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Originally by: Tobin Shalim

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Here's a thought that I don't think I've ever heard of before:

When someone shoots in high-sec and becomes flagged to Concord, they become flagged to EVERYONE there. People are then allowed to shoot/EWAR/whatever that person and that person only, without Concord shooting them back. I imagine that a smart-bombing Raven pilot in Jita would think twice when confronted with the idea that suddenly they're faced with about a hundred pilots all turning upon him the second he turns his smartbombs on.

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Originally by: Tobin Shalim

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Here's a thought that I don't think I've ever heard of before:

When someone shoots in high-sec and becomes flagged to Concord, they become flagged to EVERYONE there. People are then allowed to shoot/EWAR/whatever that person and that person only, without Concord shooting them back. I imagine that a smart-bombing Raven pilot in Jita would think twice when confronted with the idea that suddenly they're faced with about a hundred pilots all turning upon him the second he turns his smartbombs on.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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I've flown freighters with 20b+ in the hold quite often, and always with zero issues in high sec. I guess I must be doing some crazy cheat method in order to escape the high sec gank squads that I pass? It's beyond me how I don't seem to have any problems being ganked (never have in high sec), yet so many other people die every day. What is it that is the difference? If I can figure it out, then why can't other players? Am I just *that* much smarter than everyone else?

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Originally by: emepror

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just dont forget that carebears run our economy

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Originally by: Shintai

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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I've flown freighters with 20b+ in the hold quite often, and always with zero issues in high sec. I guess I must be doing some crazy cheat method in order to escape the high sec gank squads that I pass? It's beyond me how I don't seem to have any problems being ganked (never have in high sec), yet so many other people die every day. What is it that is the difference? If I can figure it out, then why can't other players? Am I just *that* much smarter than everyone else?

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Alot of us have. But thats not the point since a freighter is rarely ganked due to the BS amount requirement, teamwork and planning. Something that excludes the majority of suicide people. And I dont think thats what we want to stop either. Its simply so rare.

But the issue is when xxxWannabeeGanker1xxx ganks an itty5 with 2million pyr in with his thorax. Simply because its worth it. And usually the character is recycled for the purpose. Very easily done on trial accounts aswell. Or one in a BC ganking the same or alittle higher value. Or the Hulk/Mack ganks with thoraxes, vexors, brutix etc over basicly nothing.

Its not about moving 100million or 20billion. Its already a problem when you move 10million up. Sometimes even empty worthless haulers get ganked. Its just so cheap and easy that you dont even have to look in the cargo.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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How about if CCP removed insurance payouts? Then popping a hauler with a BC wouldn't cost you 8m or so, it would cost you 25-30m or more. The only rub is that CCP would have to remove ALL insurance payouts to ALL ships, to make it fair. I'm willing to accept such a change. Are the rest of the carebears? After all, a change like this would only hurt the less skilled players in Eve. And by skilled, I'm not talking about skillpoints.

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Originally by: Val Vympel

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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How about if CCP removed insurance payouts? Then popping a hauler with a BC wouldn't cost you 8m or so, it would cost you 25-30m or more. The only rub is that CCP would have to remove ALL insurance payouts to ALL ships, to make it fair. I'm willing to accept such a change. Are the rest of the carebears? After all, a change like this would only hurt the less skilled players in Eve. And by skilled, I'm not talking about skillpoints.

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Bellum,

EvE is a MMORPG it is a simulation of a real life society.

A society has laws,rules and regulations,determined by the moral majority.

Criminals,pirates,brigands,murderers,thieves etc.etc. are labeled such because they defy the laws of the moral majority.

What you are calling for is moral equivelance.
The prisons of the RL world are filled with people who think that their actions and behavior is morally equivalent to the law....(Not fair,there are no moral absolutes etc.)

I am the last player in EvE that wants to see the options of those that decide to live outside the moral majority curbed. Variety is the spice of life and EvE would be a mind numbing boring place without those that defy the law. Suicide ganking is low on my list of problems...gate camping on the other hand

CCP has a duty and obligation to be true to their RP(I know what is that?)storyline and to weed out mechanics that disrupt that storyline and introduce new features that enhance and clarify the storyline. CCP should remain true to the storyline and common sense no matter WHO it hinders or helps...Carebear or Outlaw.

I am not implying that what I am about to say is your belief....however...

The longer I play this game and the more I read these forums the more convinced and certain I become that a rather large minority of the playerbase is totally ignorant of what a MMORPG really is.

I am convinced that what many players really want is "Multiplayer Grand Theft Auto in Space". This is simply not the product the CCP offers.

The law is not designed to be FAIR to those that break it.

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Originally by: Bellum Eternus

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100% untanked Itty5s? Or an Itty5 with a few LSEs and some passive hardeners? Damage Control anyone? Again, there is no excuse for getting killed, even if you're empty. The target failed at living, the attacker didn't fail at doing anything. It's Darwinism at it's finest. If a player can't compete and survive effectively, then that's his role in the game, to be a sheep.

The definition of insanity: doing something over and over again the exact same way, and expecting a different result.

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