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Jarvis Hellstrom
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Posted - 2008.06.04 13:49:00 -
[31]
I like a lot of b1zz' suggestions. Here are some possible tweaks that might make them more do-able for CCP.
 Originally by: b1zz
The missions need an overhaul. What I would like to see is this:
1. No repeated missions for any one character.
I don't think going quite this far is necessary but there are definitely missions that shouldn't be repeated. How many times do I have to rescue the Damsel from Kruul, for instance? That girl needed to learn her lesson the first time!
That being said, there are some 'basic combat' missions which could be repeated because they don't have a 'specific' feel. These could be set to repeat where others that have a more 'adventure' feel to them could be one at a time only. Things like Furrier Fiasco, Rescue the Gallente Reporters, Damsel in Distress, Portal to War etc. should only happen once to a given character. Gone Berserk, Angel Extravaganza, Unauthorized Military Presence, Duo of Death etc. could be repeats. They don't feel like a specific one-off event.
Quote:
2. All missions story missions.
3. Decent engrossing story missions.
4. Randomness and unpredictability as the OP suggested to keep me on my toes.
5. If they want more people in low sec they need to lower the +8 standing requirement for NPC corp jump clone access. I mean, I do want to join a corp, but I'm not interested in joining one just to get jump clones. I want to get out to 0.0 and start mixing it with PvPs then join a group that I've enjoyed interacting with ie. mix with then join, not join then mix.
Getting a Jump Clone does take a VERY long time and to newbugs the real need for it and how to use it is not immediately clear. I got most of my info on them from other PCs. If there is a desire for newer folks in low sec then making JCs easier to get would definitely be a step in the right direction. Maybe a standing of 5 or 6 instead of 8?
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.06.04 13:58:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
I think there is a lot they could do to NPC’s to bring combat with them more inline with combat vs. other players.
For starters, NPC Battleships they deal typically? 150-300 dps? You get T1 player cruisers doing up to ~ 500 dps! This sort of damage may have been fine 3-4 years ago, but things have moved on, it’s time they did too.
So the short of it is, they need beefing up and the numbers reducing (helps the server load too). Particularly so in 0.0, if you come across a pirate Battleship, it should not be a case of ‘whack-a-mole’ for a 3 month old noob in a Raven. As it stands, even the so called ‘elite’; officers and commanders, are mere speed bumps, and these guys are supposed to be capsule pilots too...
I’d suggest ‘long range' NPC battleships should be doing of the order 400-500 dps, and those that MWD up into your face doing of the order 800-900 dps. Reduce the numbers, and increase the bounty payment, perhaps so that the reward is higher than current in 0.0. Carry this over to officers so they are in-fact, as hard as a Deadspace/Faction-fitted Battleship really is.
Secondly they really need to re-introduce tackling NPC’s, it used to be that every 0.0 spawn you took on would have interceptors to lock you down, there was a real risk of actually *gasp* dying. I’ve no idea why they removed this.
Thirdly they need to give NPC’s some more brains and start switching fire. If you as a player aren’t breaking someone’s tank, you don’t sit there banging your head against a wall, you try hitting the damage dealers. This would probably require the rewards of complexes be beefed up, but again, it’s worth it to get away from this ‘whack-a-mole’ PVE and bridge the gap.
I can only support this.
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Jarvis Hellstrom
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:16:00 -
[33]
Originally by: The Tzar
Whilst I see your point, I personally find the tactics in PvP more interesting than PvE, mostly from the variety of ships that are used in small and larger gangs.
For me the only PvE I have done is to earn ISK in the early days and this involved sitting in a drake that didn't really need to move, worry about transversal, range or anything really.
I can see how some people might find it boring taking instructions from an FC though.
Speaking as a relatively experienced mission runner trying to make the "PvP Leap" I have to say I can see both points of view.
PvP, unless you're in a gank gang running around blowing folks up, is a lot of rather frustrating 'sit around and wait and Oh now I'm dead'. At my level, that's pretty much the experience. At the low levels, it really isn't much fun and in a gank gang, it's really not much different from mission running other than the fact that you're probably ****ing someone off ruining their fun in the game. The fun comes when your gank gang runs into the quick response defense and you have something like a real fight.
Some folks seem to enjoy just flying in and killing ratters and miners etc. and I'll admit that I'll never understand that mindset. You're not showing you're 'better' than anyone when fighting three or four to one against a ship which is somewhat PVE or logistics fit anyway. Even against another PvP ship the odds are it won't be much of a fight.
Strange as it may sound, perhaps something that MIGHT make EVE combat more fun in the PvP realm is slowing things down some. Right now ganks happen in seconds and there is frequently no time to react. Really good players can and do but that's a skill that takes time to develop and, let's face it, some will never get particularly good at it.
If the pace of the battle were a little slower than really fast ganks would require truly overwhelming superiority and in smaller fights there might be at least some risk of damage for the attackers even against a single ship if it's combat fitted at all.
I don't know for sure if this would be feasible, but I think it might help bridge the PVE/PVP gap as one of the things that is different between the two, now is the pace of the battle. In PVE you usually have time to think, to plan, to move your ship. It's something more than just pushing a few buttons and then getting podded. In PVP, from what little I've seen thus far, movement, other than charging in to tackle etc. isn't common save in larger fleet actions. Moving to take a flank etc. or any of those things one sometimes does when mission running hasn't happened in any PvP action I've been part of (but keep in mind my experience there is very limited).
The reason that's relevant is because, at some point, all(or at least most) PVE folks making the PvP transition are like me. Lots of experience in one, little experience in the other and frustrated by the shift.
A slower PvP pace would probably help that transition although doing that without breaking too much might well be very hard for CCP to do.
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Donkee Punch
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:17:00 -
[34]
Aside from the radically different shipfit requirements for PVP vs PVE lets look at the costs involved.
You can run a pretty decent PVE setup for a reasonable price and be fairly well assured that barring random acts of daftness / lag / griefing that you'll survive and make isk at a steady if not terribly exciting pace.
Setting up an effivtive PVP ship is a different kettle of fish... To be effective in PVP you need decent skills...that's not too bad..it takes time and the price of associated skillbooks is livable for the most part.
NOW on to the ships / setups. While you "can" pvp in a generic ship/setup you're likely to be little more than cannon fodder. To be really effective (either in fleet or roaming gang ops) you need a high end T2 ship complete with either T2 fittings or named mods. The price can be quite high and loosing this UberBoat will hurt.... sadly the insurance payout for said ship/fittings doesn't cover or even mitigate the costs.
And, for most of us "average" players the time needed to recoup such a loss can be daunting. Unlike some of the players that make huge isk in Eve a lot of us simply don't have the time to devote to rebuilding from such a loss.
In short, I don't think it's a matter of "not wanting" to PvP...for a lot of the "Carebears" it's a matter of "Cost vs Fun" factor. P'raps if insurance helped ease the loss trauma of a well equipped boat you'd see more casual PvP'ers about.
That's my 2 cents 
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Gealbhan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:38:00 -
[35]
The problem with PvE is not the missions, it's your ship.
A tricked out BC running lvl 2 missions... ???
What they should do is limit the gate access to a particular size/type of ship.
lvl 1 - frigates
lvl 2 - destroyer, cruisers
lvl 3 - Battle cruisers
lvl 4 - battleships
lvl 5 - Dreads? I dunno.
but anyway that'd put at least some challenge back into it for people that are mission bored.
"Concentrate all your fire on one target, when it is destroyed, move on to the next. That is how you secure victory". - Tactica Imperium. |
NeoNeTiC
Mortis Angelus
The Church.
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:39:00 -
[36]
@ topic:
1. Remove industry and missions, make ships free, remove the concept of clones and introduce "respawning".
2. Introduce some crappy ranking-system inside EvE, similar to current killboard-points.
3. Wait for carebears to log in.
4. ???
5. NO PROFIT!
Seriously, I don't want them in PvP-combat. Their whole attitude opposes what I love about combat in EvE. I don't want to play with them :(
Happy grinding,
NeoNeTiC
[MORTS]-PvPer
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Ghengis Tia
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:47:00 -
[37]
I've lost enough ships in low-sec space to make the risk greater than any reward I could possibly gain. Other than valuable lessons learned it was a very negative experience.
I play EVE for escapism, fun, and a mental challenge. Since I've experienced the adrenalin rush of having my ship handed to me in a trashbag, and being podded with 75M in implants twice in one day, being cannon fodder for punks has lost its allure.
I am quite entertained by what I do now in EVE. This angst over why PvE players don't play PvP escapes me.
As a solo player, being a duck in your PvP shooting gallery doesn't interest me in the least.
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Brax Draggen
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Posted - 2008.06.04 14:59:00 -
[38]
I agree that it would be nice to bridge the gap between PvP and PvE, and it sounds like FW just might do this. WeÆll see in a few days.
I also agree that missions, and really rats in all areas of EVE, need a revamp.
I also think to truly bridge this gap there are many other fundamental issues with EVE combat that need to be resolved. However, those items should be left for other threads.
As for the topic at hand, I would love it if there were less NPCs in a mission that each offered greater challenge and reward. The NPCs need to be tougher, output better DPS, have slightly better DPS, and even better AI. Instead of re-spawns, some NPCs that are getting killed should try to run and then return a couple minutes later once repped.
I also think the idea of random enemy configs in missions would cool and should encourage scouting out missions. The one problem with that is that acceleration gates often drop you right on top of the NPCs. This would make scouting them not very feasible. But losing a ship or two to a mission while you figure out the NPC composition wouldnÆt be a big deal if you could recoup most of the losses in just a couple missions. As it stands now that is not the case.
Even in level one missions, if you were flying the appropriate T1 Frig or even Destroyer, it would take several missions to recoup the loss of a ship and its fittings.
Another cool thought for both PvE and PvP would be the environment making a bigger difference. I remember when I first discovered asteroids donÆt offer any cover from enemy fire. I was new to EVE and went to lower sec to try to rat. The rats were tougher than I expected so I ran a little ways away and parked behind an asteroid to rep. and wait for my cap to recharge. Once I realized that the rats were hitting me straight through the giant asteroid I just jumped instead. Still the point is that environment should make a difference. There should be area with anomalies that disrupt sensors, targeting, missiles, lasers, and everything else. Then scouting and trying to fit for the mission, or the PvP area would be more important. And interesting.
I donÆt really pretend to have a good answer for this. But as a relatively casual player who only spends a couple hours a week playing, the risk Vs reward for PvP was way too steep for me. So, I am back to mission running, which is a little boring. I really hope FW will bridge this gap and make a little PvP somewhat affordable to me.
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TimMc
Genos Occidere
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Posted - 2008.06.04 15:45:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
I think there is a lot they could do to NPCÆs to bring combat with them more inline with combat vs. other players.
For starters, NPC Battleships they deal typically? 150-300 dps? You get T1 player cruisers doing up to ~ 500 dps! This sort of damage may have been fine 3-4 years ago, but things have moved on, itÆs time they did too.
So the short of it is, they need beefing up and the numbers reducing (helps the server load too). Particularly so in 0.0, if you come across a pirate Battleship, it should not be a case of æwhack-a-moleÆ for a 3 month old noob in a Raven. As it stands, even the so called æeliteÆ; officers and commanders, are mere speed bumps, and these guys are supposed to be capsule pilots too...
IÆd suggest ælong range' NPC battleships should be doing of the order 400-500 dps, and those that MWD up into your face doing of the order 800-900 dps. Reduce the numbers, and increase the bounty payment, perhaps so that the reward is higher than current in 0.0. Carry this over to officers so they are in-fact, as hard as a Deadspace/Faction-fitted Battleship really is.
Secondly they really need to re-introduce tackling NPCÆs, it used to be that every 0.0 spawn you took on would have interceptors to lock you down, there was a real risk of actually *gasp* dying. IÆve no idea why they removed this.
Thirdly they need to give NPCÆs some more brains and start switching fire. If you as a player arenÆt breaking someoneÆs tank, you donÆt sit there banging your head against a wall, you try hitting the damage dealers. This would probably require the rewards of complexes be beefed up, but again, itÆs worth it to get away from this æwhack-a-moleÆ PVE and bridge the gap.
This.
And alot of the carebears seem to be whining at people who want to bridge the gap.
They fail to realise that everyone started as a carebear really, so we are speaking from experience on BOTH SIDES. Not just your side.
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Randolf Sightblinder
Ex Coelis
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Posted - 2008.06.04 16:32:00 -
[40]
First I'll get something out of the way. Most people that want to move PvE players to PvP don't want a PVP fight they want a target.
Now that is out of the way also there is a very diffrent mindset between losses to PvE versus PvP. For instance a lot of people complain about WoW, or turning EvE into wow, but from What I've read its not uncommon to lose people on the highest level PvE content in wow, but you don't lose your "epic" gear when that happens I think I'm not sure how loot is handled in PvP but I think its not you lose everything either.
Which brings the major problem to EvE PvP, death penalties... EvE's are very high for the ammount of "fun" most people will get out of a PVP encounter. PvP in eve is very chess like, instead of the PvP you see in other games like most FPS (planetside for scale). But simply the only way to get more PvP is to reduce the penalties associated with loss.
Make it impossible to Pod anywhere in empire including low sec, or at least without an active wardec for example, and if you say what about the guy with a snake set? Why don't you have one it works both ways, and if you can't wardec him (npc corp) he can't pod you either...
With this you would probably see a lot more pvp as people without jump clones could PvP without worrying about implants, basicly it would be a reduction in risk. I know I would PvP more if I didn't have to wait 24hours when not risking my implants.
Randolf
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Wu Jiun
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.04 16:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Novemb3r
tl;dr the people who want to PVP are already doing it.
QFT.
People who don't want to pvp won't do it. So lets don't bother with them and let them do what the f they want. I don't really see why people like mul or exlegion are getting so annoyed by that statement. Its what you've been telling us over and over in other threads. You said you can't force people to pvp if they don't like/want it for whatever reason.
So whats the matter now?
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Wu Jiun
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.04 16:57:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Novemb3r
reasonable stuff about people who don't like pvp
You must be one of those haters that don't understand (and probably don't even care) how missions work but you'll spew your opinions of hate and insults anyway because, well, it's just so much easier.
So, how do missions work? Are you suggesting they involve risk? Because no they don't short of you screwing up big time. You can solo any and all lvl4 missions with a 3 month old char easily.
insults/hate - did you read that post? Saying someone doesn't want to take risks is not really an insult. Especially not if its goddamn true.
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Jakke Logan
F Off And Die
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Posted - 2008.06.04 18:47:00 -
[43]
Nothing will get PVE'ers into PVP (except as gank bait) until they WANT to PVP.
This is as true in EVE as it is in every single other MMO that has PVP.
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Spineker
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Posted - 2008.06.04 18:54:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Jakke Logan
Nothing will get PVE'ers into PVP (except as gank bait) until they WANT to PVP.
This is as true in EVE as it is in every single other MMO that has PVP.
Exactly and why do people have this idea they can demand what others do with their play time?
Destroy missions so they will PVP? That is stupid they won't PVP they will quit. Just like I will quit if you try to force me to do anything. Its simple human nature.
All you pvp'ers from doom with your leetzor skillz have all of 0.0 to hunt in but the problem is they run into people who send them back to their clone and aren't so easy to kill. So they want easy kills from newbs. Rather pathetic really.
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Spineker
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Posted - 2008.06.04 18:56:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Wu Jiun
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Novemb3r
reasonable stuff about people who don't like pvp
You must be one of those haters that don't understand (and probably don't even care) how missions work but you'll spew your opinions of hate and insults anyway because, well, it's just so much easier.
So, how do missions work? Are you suggesting they involve risk? Because no they don't short of you screwing up big time. You can solo any and all lvl4 missions with a 3 month old char easily.
insults/hate - did you read that post? Saying someone doesn't want to take risks is not really an insult. Especially not if its goddamn true.
HAHAHA lets see you do worlds collide with your 3 month old character.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.04 19:19:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Originally by: Venkul Mul
It is possible to develope them, but you PvPers hate every second that CCP spend on PvE, then you ask for a overhaul of the system that will require most of the developers for a year?
Because it benefits us indirectly. I mean, if they left PvP as it is for a year, well, OK, I'm having fun PvP-ing as it is - while, getting mission runners to realise that losing ships is a question of 'when' instead of 'if', that everything IS a matter of risk and reward, and that small-scale PvP is not the horrible thing you envision it to be (what you describe is the worst kind of fleet and blob warfare, which is annoying), but rather something fun, exciting and challenging.
Someone that think that people don't lose ship in mission has always done them with overpowering ships and skill.
You always used cruiser in level 1 and BC in level 2?
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Rawr Cristina
Naqam
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Posted - 2008.06.04 21:27:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Spineker
HAHAHA lets see you do worlds collide with your 3 month old character.
can be done with a Drake
you need to train specificially for it mind you, and it certainly isn't 'easy' by any standards. Will involve many many warpouts and several hours to complete it, but so long as you have some sense you'll never lose a ship.
Quote:
Someone that think that people don't lose ship in mission has always done them with overpowering ships and skill.
It's how you fly it. Someone who neglects to kill the warp scramblers or align for instance is going to be at much greater risk than someone who dosen't.
It's really all down to pilot error, at the end of the day.
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Spineker
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Posted - 2008.06.04 21:34:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Rawr Cristina
Originally by: Spineker
HAHAHA lets see you do worlds collide with your 3 month old character.
can be done with a Drake
you need to train specificially for it mind you, and it certainly isn't 'easy' by any standards. Will involve many many warpouts and several hours to complete it, but so long as you have some sense you'll never lose a ship.
Well that is a technicality then I still wouldn't believe it until I seen it done, before the changes to mission there is no way in hell a 3 month old would do the misison or hardly any other level 4. Now with the changes I still need to see it happen. You will not go in and do level 4 mission with 3 months and do them with any skill only luck and you will lose many ships.
Yet in 2 to 4 weeks I can have a tech one Gallen Cruiser kicking ass in PVP against other noobs at least.
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Ezri Filth
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.06.04 21:58:00 -
[49]
There is much truth in this thread.
PvE and PvP are mutually exclusive... ever tried a level 3 mission in a gankfit Megathron?
You'll lose, but in PvP this setup is awesome.
Same for a PvE - fit Megathron... not even the slightest chance of survival.
I guess a solution would be to make PvE a lot more like PvP, such as having only very, very few enemies, but each one with a good setup (HAC with full T2 setup and stuff) and forget all this "zomg 425mm Railgun II with federation navy antimatter charge l" which is, quite frankly, absolute nonsense.
(There IS a place for railguns in this game... it's called "snipering"... but not regular shooting at stuff... it is something specialized.)
I BELIEVE that we would see a lot more low sec activity if PvE and PvP - fits would be the same.
Imagin missions like "wait at the gate from Egghelende to Ammamake and beat the crap out of each Amarr slave trader that comes through", which would be a great sniper mission, but also possible when done with short range weapons.
Have to sleep now. Fight well, my friends (and enemies)! :)
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Exlegion
New Light
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.04 22:02:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Exlegion on 04/06/2008 22:05:52
Originally by: Wu Jiun
So, how do missions work? Are you suggesting they involve risk? Because no they don't short of you screwing up big time. You can solo any and all lvl4 missions with a 3 month old char easily.
insults/hate - did you read that post? Saying someone doesn't want to take risks is not really an insult. Especially not if its goddamn true.
Go do some missions or mine in low sec. Then come back and talk to me why high sec players may be hesitant about going to low sec other than because they're risk-adverse or don't want to risk their ships for low sec rewards  . Until then, let's just not do this.
Not up to this? Then carry on in "theorizing" why players aren't up to throwing themselves at you with their miners ablaze.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Gang Starr |
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.04 22:37:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Wu Jiun
Originally by: Novemb3r
tl;dr the people who want to PVP are already doing it.
QFT.
People who don't want to pvp won't do it. So lets don't bother with them and let them do what the f they want. I don't really see why people like mul or exlegion are getting so annoyed by that statement. Its what you've been telling us over and over in other threads. You said you can't force people to pvp if they don't like/want it for whatever reason.
So whats the matter now?
That statement is true and we have not reason to negate it.
It is the "because they fear ship loss" part that bother me. I have lost plenty of ships and it has stopped bothering me a lot of time ago. I dislike most PvP I have done because it found it a mix of boring, unmotivated and uninteresting. Sure, probably most of the PvP combat I have done is of the wrong kind, but still my experience in it make it uninteresting for me. (note the me part, that don't mean it will be uninteresting for all the players or that all the players not doing it share my reasons)
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Webster Carr
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.06.05 13:02:00 -
[52]
The thrust behind making PVE combat a bit more like PVP is not to 'force' people into PVP. In my opinion there are two main reasons. One is to enhance PVE combat with more variety in tactical situations and options. Currently there is only really one viable PVE settup: Tank for all you're worth while still being able to kill the rats. With fewer more powerful opponents it oppens up the options for gank setups, for EWAR, etc. Two is to help people develop skills and fittings that have more viability in PVP combat so that when they seek out (or find themselves engaged in) PVP it is more challenging and interesting for all involved. (Admit it, even if you are a no honor pirate gate ganker don't you enjoy it more if the prey puts up a fight that gets your heart pumping?)
Peace (or not),
Webb
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Novemb3r
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.06.05 13:19:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Novemb3r on 05/06/2008 13:21:40
Originally by: Exlegion
You must be one of those haters that don't understand (and probably don't even care) how missions work but you'll spew your opinions of hate and insults anyway because, well, it's just so much easier.
I run level 4s a couple of nights a week. I find it boring but I have to do it so I can afford the ships I lose in PVP. It's that or clone jump to 0.0 and kill rats out there or run plexes which is effectively the same thing.
I'm simply saying what I percieve to be true. The people who want to PVP do it already or are on their way to doing it. Players who don't want to PVP don't do it. It's simple. You can make assumptions about my knowledge of missions and call me names all you want but it won't change anything.
These forums are for people to voice their opinons. If you don't agree with me that's fine, you are free to do that. I'm not trying to insult mission runners or people who play eve for nothing but PVE at all. As far as I am concerned you can play the game in whatever manner you wish and it won't affect me at all. I'm just saying that there are a lot of players who can afford the hits that PVP results in but are unwilling to engage in it.
All I ask is that you refrain from name calling and jumping to conclusions before you reply.
Originally by: Venkul Mul
It is the "because they fear ship loss" part that bother me. I have lost plenty of ships and it has stopped bothering me a lot of time ago. I dislike most PvP I have done because it found it a mix of boring, unmotivated and uninteresting. Sure, probably most of the PvP combat I have done is of the wrong kind, but still my experience in it make it uninteresting for me. (note the me part, that don't mean it will be uninteresting for all the players or that all the players not doing it share my reasons)
You are right of course. That was a gross assumption that I made there. Players who don't like to PVP don't do it because they don't want to. Losing ships is only one reason for that. I shall do my best to not make such blanket statements in the future :)
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Novemb3r
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2008.06.05 13:35:00 -
[54]
I guess the point I'm aiming at here is this:
Regardless of how you fit a ship or if the missions are like PVP you can't force people into an environment they don't want to be in. From my readings of the forums it seems that people don't want to have a better chance of fighting back, they don't want to be put in the position to fight at all.
It's like the suggestions to move level 4s to low sec. The standard reply is that people will just move to doing high quality level 3 missions. They are risk averse. They see themselves as nothing but targets and will not be put into that situation.
So yeah, go ahead and change missions so you can do them in a PVP fit ship. I'm sure there will be a few who will go for it. But the vast majority (as far as I can tell)
will run the missions in their PVP fit ships in high sec where the only thing they have to worry about is NPCs.
Sorry about the longness.
tl;dr If you change missions so that you can do them in a PVP fit ship people will just run missions in highsec in PVP fit ships.
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Jarvis Hellstrom
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Posted - 2008.06.05 13:51:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Novemb3r
Edited by: Novemb3r on 05/06/2008 13:21:40
You are right of course. That was a gross assumption that I made there. Players who don't like to PVP don't do it because they don't want to. Losing ships is only one reason for that. I shall do my best to not make such blanket statements in the future :)
It's easy enough to do and we all have one time or another, but good for you for having the honor to accept responsibility. Too many would not.
A little while ago I lost my second ship in 0.0 space. The first one didn't really count much, I exited a camped station and was blown to smithereens by ships many times the size of my little frigate. It was in the middle of a nasty war, so hardly unexpected.
The second time, I was ratting in a brand new Dominix that I quite liked. I missed the change in local as I was mixing it up with a 3BB + 2CA spawn and suddenly, just as I was finishing off the last BB, there are three reds and I'm scrammed. My cap is already low, shields gone and I'm part down on armor (it was a hard fight against the rats). I was aligned, and revectored my drones to the reds but the conclusion was forgone. Had my ship been fresh I might well have gotten one but being hit right at the end of a fight like that - no way.
It was a nice ship, but when the folks in my corp were sad for me I just shrugged. The ship was insured, I could afford to lose it and it's the nature of 0.0.
So some of us carebears aren't afraid, nor are we stupid. The loss of the ship, no biggie. The ISK? No problem.
But here's the rub. It wasn't fun.
I play EVE to have fun, and that wasn't. It was just annoying. It wasn't exciting or cool, it was just a pain in the butt.
I LIKE challenges. I'm actually getting into the PvP 0.0 game because of that. To be honest, mission running is becoming dull. I'm good enough that I pretty much never lose a ship in mission running and I frequently challenge myself by trying to run missions in ships too small etc. just to spice it up (and it's on those occasions that I lose ships now and again when things go badly).
However - and it's an important however - getting ganked in low sec in a fight where you never had a smidgeon of a chance is even less fun. It's about as much a fight as flying outside a station and self destructing your ship. There is no challenge. It's just a pain.
PvP should be risky, yes. But part of the problem folks like me have with it is that it's not risky. It's either suicide by opponent or it's bullying helpless targets. There isn't that much in between.
I think that's the problem. In order to make PvP more enticing (and PVE less dull) there needs to be a greater balance of risk. Instead of things being 'automatic' fights should always carry SOME risk, even when the odds are in your favor. That gives the underdog a small chance and the big dog some risk.
Folks would hate it, of course, and cry over it, but they'd probably enjoy it more in the end, many of them in spite of themselves. A fight is more fun then murder or being murdered. It's as simple as that.
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Matrixcvd
Rionnag Alba
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Posted - 2008.06.05 13:54:00 -
[56]
i think enough people have said it, these threads come up about getting moar people to lo sec or moar PVEers to PVP, and there is just no reason to waste any time doing either one.
its beyond reason to try and come up with AI to approximate the PVP experience when you can just have people pay you to provide the experience for other players...
if you want to PVP then do it, if you dont, dont expect CCP to come up with a spoon fed version of PVP because it will just get farmed and turn exactly opposite of its intent and waste time money and efforts which could be put into actually doing things with the game that matter like, lag bug fix etc.
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Jarvis Hellstrom
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Posted - 2008.06.05 14:04:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Matrixcvd
If you want to PVP then do it, if you dont, dont expect CCP to come up with a spoon fed version of PVP because it will just get farmed and turn exactly opposite of its intent and waste time money and efforts which could be put into actually doing things with the game that matter like, lag bug fix etc.
Save, of course, that Factional Warfare is exactly what you describe and CCP obviously feels that it is a higher priority than lag or bug fixes etc. (Lag is more the nature of the internet anyway although that doesn't mean it shouldn't be worked on but CCP can only do so much with the basic nature of the 'net).
Clearly, there is a need for these threads and for some kind of better balance. Were that not the case the resources would not have been expended on FW.
The question is - is that the right fix or is the problem more basic in the nature of the combat system itself?
The answer to that should begin to show in the next few weeks. I expect it to be interesting.
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Letouk Mernel
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Posted - 2008.06.05 14:24:00 -
[58]
I disagree with the need to make PVE more like PVP. It sounds great, in theory, because it would let a PVE ship survive (and be effective in) PVP, but that can only happen if they let your ship be a solopwnmobile, which they won't.
Consider this:
- PVP ships are balanced so there's always one vulnerability or missing feature, so you have to bring numbers. If you're heavy DPS you can't really tackle, if you're heavy Tank your DPS is crap, and if you're a tackler your DPS and tanking are crap.
I wouldn't want these kinds of weaknesses for doing EVE PVE. I'm grinding PVE for cash, I want the results to be predictable, grindable, and as fast as possible. I don't want excitement, I don't want the unpredictability of PVP, I don't want the chance to fail missions (you can lose fights in PVP, you know?, in fact, most of the time). I just want easy cash.
PVE is a cash source, PVP is a cash sink. I don't want PVE turned into a cash sink - we'll all be forced to mine to make money, then.
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Webster Carr
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.06.05 21:29:00 -
[59]
Apparently part of my idea is already under development: (From the Under Development section in developer blogs):
Overhauling, Optimizing and Improving NPC Content
This involves decreasing the number of NPCs by a factor of around ten, and making the remaining vessels more challenging, more intelligent and less predictable, as well as better utilizing functionality such as triggers and events, decreasing the number of structures, and optimizing environments. This should ensure a better, smoother and more engaging NPC experience.
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Sunwillow Auryn
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Posted - 2008.06.05 22:52:00 -
[60]
I am a PvE mission-running carebear - with pink ribbon bows. I have been playing EVE for over two years now (and MMORPGs, or ORPGS as they were early on for almost 10), and I have never once been remotely attracted to PvP. And I'll tell you why, based on EVE experience.
1: The PvP I have been exposed to is not enjoyable, it is not 'high quality'. The last few times I have experienced PVP:
a) last time was about a month ago. I was in a covert ops frigate (buzzard), flying under a covert ops cloak through low sec doing a storyline delivery mission. I was coming out of warp and by the time my computer had given me control back after warp, I was on 50% structure, 1 second later in the pod, and another second later I was back in the n00b station in my clone, wondering wtf had happened since whoever had killed me had insta-locked first a cloaked ship and then a pod, and nuked them dead. (read the logs later and saw the weapon of death was a large concussion bomb - my mistake had been warping to zero).
b) The time before that i was in a shuttle and hit a gate camp (bad luck to come out of jump too close to one of them, was bumped until I was scrammed - I got away with my pod that time though).
c) Time before that was in nil sec - my corp had joined an alliance (forget which one), and they forced us to do gate camping to protect the borders, did not reimburse losses, and never gave us a chance to mine or rat to recoup the losses we suffered. The straw that broke me there was being ordered through into a gate camp of about 25-30 with a bubble, to disctract the camp for a reason we were never told - certainly not a mass jump through while the camp had us targeted, or a cyno jump or whatever, for those of us on the other side it looked like we were sacrificed for the fun of the high ups on our own side.
d) ... and so on.
That, to me, is PvP in EVE. My experience of it is all about grief play. I am not, and never want to be, a griefer. You can talk all you like about how not all PvP is like that, but I've never seen it.
2: I have stress in my work life. I play games to relax. The last thing I want from my 'me time' is to get adrenalin pumping. Mission running is a nice quiet grind. Sometimes I have to concentrate a little harder, but most of the time it's pretty relaxing. I like that.
3: What I like in a game (this game, any game) is standings - I don't know why they fascinate me, I just love 'em. Missioning gives storyline missions, which raises faction standings, is good. I was the same in the brief time I spent in WoW, the same in EverQuest, would have been the same in Meridian 59 if it had been advanced enough to have such things. PvP destroys standings. No fun.
4: I am a poor pilot. My concentration is low, I don't take advice on fits well, when I get targeted my first reacton is to freeze and stare into the headlights without even getting off a shot back. Decent PvP players deserve higher quality targets than that.
I will never PvP. If CCP were to release a carebear server where you couldn't target other players, I'd move over like a shot. If (as has often been discussed) the higher level mission givers were to be moved into low sec, I would quit the game rather than be forced into the PvP arena.
FW has been a difficult choice for me - I really want to gain ranks with the militia, and from that point of view FW might have achieved the stated goal and pulled this most reluctant PvPer into the lower grief side of fun PvP, but because of the (to me inevitable) low sec gank en route to the mission hub, I will not be taking part.
More power to those who enjoy PvP, you're paying for the game too, so have fun your way. I accept I will sometimes be a target, I can't claim to like it, but it's what happens when you choose to be a part of the EVE universe.
I just wanted to explain why PvP is not, and will never be, for me. WoW PvE sucks ass though - I will NOT return there, before anyone says so 
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