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Daveydweeb
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 06:09:00 -
[1]
There are several current problems with Starbase logistics from the perspective of anyone who regularly needs to set up new POSs. The two most significant of these are, simply:
- That the process of anchoring, onlining a control tower and its modules can - and regularly does - take a minimum of five to eight hours to complete. This time commitment can not be reduced.
- That, with the exception of the first hour, the entire process requires constant user interaction with the game in order to progress. This can not be avoided.
It's worth mentioning that there exist a number of laughable design flaws and bugs in the management and anchoring interfaces - but fixing those is a matter for bug reports, not the CSM. Instead, I want to focus on these two broader gameplay issues with a reference to the way these flaws make them so much more unbearable.
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Issue 1
The problems with setting up new Starbases begin when the player starts anchoring POS modules, after the tower itself has been anchored and onlined. Each module has its own anchoring and onlining timers before it can become useful: guns and electronic warfare mods take five minutes to anchor and a further five to online, while Cynosural System Jammers take a half-hour to online. Unfortunately, the actual process of setting up these mods is entirely manual, and breaks down like this:
- The module to be anchored is launched for the player's corporation from their cargohold.
- The player either right-clicks on the module in space and selects "anchor", or opens the POS management interface, selects the desired module and presses the "anchor" button". A green box appears around the module in space, which a set of silver arrows that can be dragged along each axis.
- The player then moves the green box to the desired location on the grid, then right-clicks any of the arrows to select "anchor here".
- After the anchoring timer, the player either right-clicks the module from within ~5km and select "put online", and presses the corresponding button in the management interface.
I've italicised the broken parts. Since a typical 0.0 deathstar will include anywhere from 20 - 40 modules in need of anchoring, the simple process of setting up a control tower can require six or more hours of constant, tedious player interaction. Add to this that the arrows themselves are tiny and difficult to position (only a few hundred metres long), which can make simply positioning each module a tedious and - in the case of players that suffer from RSI, such as myself - physically painful process.
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Issue 2
There exists no way to hasten or streamline to the process of anchoring and onlining POS modules. If you want to set up a full 0.0 deathstar, you must return your attention to the game every five minutes, adding up to six or more hours of unavoidable tedium that actively detracts from gameplay. If we accept that the element of risk introduced by making it take long enough to set up a POS for a hostile force to react, the game desperately needs a way to reduce the level and duraction of player interaction required.
I should say that the option exists to pre-position all the mods at a tower so that the player need not deal as much with CCP's ridiculous placement interface - but this requires leaving them unanchored and floating in space, vulnerable to theft and destruction. The risk associated with attempting to step around the inadequacies of EVE's interface are totally unreasonable. The game desperately needs, at the very least, a method to pre-position modules so that the player can simply position every module and then find something fun to do for the next eight hours.
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The original "Features and Ideas" forum thread I posted on this issue can be found here. |
Voculus
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:18:00 -
[2]
_________________________________________________________
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Myk Taison
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:25:00 -
[3]
i was too bored by the process to even read all of the OP so god only knows how bored i would be by the process itg (in the game)
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Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 11:40:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Myk Taison
i was too bored by the process to even read all of the OP so god only knows how bored i would be by the process itg (in the game)
There can be no better summation. |
Syberbolt8
Gen Tec
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Posted - 2008.06.09 14:56:00 -
[5]
It starts to be alot of fun when you are onlining 3 or 4 death stars in the same system, 5 to 8 hrs of warping between pos's anchor, online, anchor online lol, drive you crazy very quickly.
I would like to see the ability to online and anchor at the same time, anchor one mod and online another, or maybe stream line it even more, upto 5 mods anchor and online at the same time. I understand why the time sink, its to prevent mega alliances from insta spaming systems, but this happens anyway, and for the people doing it, it drives them nuts, but just because they are going crazy isnt going to stop them from putting the towers up.
maybe even a pos layout screen that lets you plan your pos setup, then it takes the 8 hrs but does it on auto, keeping all the mods in the pos shields until each mod is moved one by one to its place, anchored and if the layout says to onlined by the tower itself, not a player sitting there for hrs on end banging his/her head on the desk waiting 5 more min for that next array.
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Tharrn
Vigilia Valeria Expeditionary Forces
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Posted - 2008.06.09 15:08:00 -
[6]
Oh yes, last time round I basically stared at progress bars for three days. I think that it should take a while to anchor/online all modules, but a queue of some sorts would be really helpfull.
Please consider http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=reply&threadID=778222 too.
Now recruiting! |
ceyriot
Induseng Enterprises
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2008.06.09 15:13:00 -
[7]
Agreeing with a goonie 
Faction Store - Killboard |
Nariana Verex
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.06.09 15:15:00 -
[8]
Online POS modules killed my inner child. 
Do the right thing. Don't leave shuttles in space. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.09 17:02:00 -
[9]
If that's the process, then the process needs to be dragged out behind the barn and shot.
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Fix the forums! |
Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 17:04:00 -
[10]
Posting in a rally thread.
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2008.06.09 17:05:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Goumindong
Posting in a John Mcain thread.
___
Eve Players are not very smart.
Support Killmail Overhaul
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Spoon Thumb
Paladin Imperium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.10 00:55:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Spoon Thumb on 10/06/2008 00:55:23
I proposed something ages ago on features and ideas to streamline the process without necessarily making it easier to spam:
Anchoring Drones:
Each CT has a limited number of anchoring drones. You can manage them and give them job queues. You could put them all on one module to anchor it faster, or put them all on different jobs so you don't have to spend all day sitting at a POS anchoring
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Elektrea
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.10 00:57:00 -
[13]
Everything about POS's has to go, so I guess one small step is better then nothing 
Happy HOur Minning and Industry
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Lin Xiao
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:34:00 -
[14]
<3 for anything to streamline POS management.
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Rex Hargrove
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:37:00 -
[15]
Crappy POS mechanics FO LYFE
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GeneRuss
Ars ex Discordia
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Posted - 2008.06.11 00:50:00 -
[16]
Daveydweeb will never lead us wrong. If he says POSes are broken, they're broken. 
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The MapMaker
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Posted - 2008.06.11 01:51:00 -
[17]
logistics director's of 0.0 alliances uniting itt
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BiggestT
Fun Inc
Black-Out
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Posted - 2008.06.11 02:12:00 -
[18]
/signed
POS = G*Y boredom..basically defines grinding issues of MMO's in one package.
Complete re-work-over is needed CCP! |
Mr Siman
Spawn More Overlords
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Posted - 2008.06.11 04:07:00 -
[19]
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Harik A'ttar
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Posted - 2008.06.11 06:10:00 -
[20]
Strongly supported.
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Xerpex
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:17:00 -
[21]
.
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Kwint Sommer
Lothian Quay Industries
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Posted - 2008.06.11 08:47:00 -
[22]
Purchasing and Shipping Moon Minerals |
GeneralNukeEm
Free Collective
The OSS
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Posted - 2008.06.11 09:13:00 -
[23]
Having anchored parts of several towers on behalf of my corporation, dear god please make it less tedious. |
Zulu Six
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.11 12:36:00 -
[24]
I've had to go through this a dozen times... it's an inordinate pita. Taking a fully fitted POS down is just as bad. |
Vladimir Titov
Knights of the Minmatar Republic
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Posted - 2008.06.11 13:40:00 -
[25]
Something needs to be done about this. I agree the time sink is needed. Here is what I would like to see:
1. In addition to anchoring an onlining, there should be an option to Anchor and Online. The time taken for this would be a combination of the two.
2. A queue can be implemented by allowing concurrent anchoring, with the first item taking the documented time to anchor & online, and then the second item is listed as anchoring but instead of taking the documented amount of time it takes the time consumed by the first item and the second item.
So basically if I choose to anchor a corporate hangar array it takes 10 minutes. As soon as I click to anchor, I chose to anchor a Silo. If the time to anchor a silo alone is 5 minutes (just for the sake of argument gents), then the timer on the silo should be listed at 15 minutes (10 for the corporate hangar and 5 for the Silo itself). This way we can anchor a POS and then go do something else for the rest of the night. You can even add a queuing time penalty (+2 minutes for every additional item).
As for refueling, allow one POS to be designated "BOSS" in the system, and placing fuel in that POS disseminates it to all the other POSs in system.
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Daveydweeb
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 18:26:00 -
[26]
To be perfectly honest, fueling is no longer the big issue it used to be now that we can fuel towers for a month at a time. That said, the other suggestions you raised are pretty cool.
Your signature is too large. Please resize it to a maximum of 400 x 120 with the file size not exceeding 24000 bytes. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com - Mitnal |
Dramaticus
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 18:28:00 -
[27]
Stampert <3
Please don't use RL pictuers of players in Sig without permission. - WeatherMan |
Fallorn
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.11 19:30:00 -
[28]
POS interface is a true pos. |
Dray
Spartan Industries
Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2008.06.11 19:43:00 -
[29]
Been playing the game since beta and only in the last few months have I encountered POS management and all its delights, whilst I appreciate that things shouldn't be easy in terms of space holding etc, POS management is a monster and for the first time since playing Eve I've genuinely found something that makes me think "is it really worth it?" it's like a job, I don't play this game as an alternative to my rl job, fix it, and fix it soon.
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Herring
Alcatraz Inc.
Tactical Narcotics Team
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Posted - 2008.06.12 00:18:00 -
[30]
Agreed, there has to be some way to make this a little bit less time consuming.
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Stevobob
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 00:53:00 -
[31]
I set up a small POS on Sisi to see what my own POS would be like, and setting the thing up took a ridiculous amount of time. Allow the tower to anchor and online multiple mods at once, that way you wouldn't have to sit idle for hours to click 20 times.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.06.12 03:09:00 -
[32]
damn poses
even fueling is a pain in the ass
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Lars Erlkonig
Discrete Solutions Ltd.
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Posted - 2008.06.12 14:07:00 -
[33]
Also why not have the anchoring skill give some functional bonus to the speed of anchoring/onlining POS modules.
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Alexander Knott
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 15:50:00 -
[34]
Yeah, POS interfaces could use some love. |
Nvali
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.12 18:44:00 -
[35]
This, ohgod please this
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Czanthria
Ad Astra Vexillum
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.12 19:05:00 -
[36]
--
Knowledge is Power! |
Jurgen Cartis
Interstellar Corporation of Exploration
Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.06.12 20:16:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto
If that's the process, then the process needs to be dragged out behind the barn and shot.
You are far too kind to the process. I'd go into more detail, but I like my clean forum history.
--------------------
ICE Blueprint Sales
FIRST!! -Yipsilanti
Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth |
Phyneas
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.13 03:30:00 -
[38]
I think the simplest solution to this would be to add an anchoring/onlining queue, so you can just queue up your anchoring and onlining commands at the beginning and don't have to sit there clicking things every five minutes. It'll still take 6-8 hours to construct a fully functional POS, but it removes the tedium aspect from the process.
Also, in addition to the existing anchoring process, add an "Anchor top" and "Anchor bottom" command that will automatically anchor the module in question at the top or the bottom of the POS, as close to the tower and as close to the vertical axis of the tower as possible, so you can queue up a typical POS setup without having to drag around the annoying green box for every single module.
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Nynaeve Ares
Animus Incarnate
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Posted - 2008.06.13 04:10:00 -
[39]
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Dumah Tace
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.13 07:27:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Myk Taison
i was too bored by the process to even read all of the OP so god only knows how bored i would be by the process itg (in the game)
 is about how I felt reading the OP. |
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Atama Cardel
Even-Flow
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Posted - 2008.06.13 08:13:00 -
[41]
I've only ever set up one POS in eve, and that was one of the most painful things I've done in this game, please change it |
Narciss Sevar
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.13 09:10:00 -
[42]
 |
Loany
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Posted - 2008.06.13 11:39:00 -
[43]
Posting in a thread |
Faekurias
Black Legion Command
Red Dawn Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.13 11:40:00 -
[44]
:thumbsup: |
Orion GUardian
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Posted - 2008.06.13 11:53:00 -
[45]
Timesinks are not funny, a game should be fun.
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Ikar Kaltin
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.13 11:59:00 -
[46]
I spend a great deal of time putting up POSes, and it just takes far far far too long. Its almost as bad as taking them back down :s
They take far too long to put up and take down, far too many man hours to fuel and keep working on a consistant basis, fully support a reworking of this entire concept, though as with all CSM ideas I dont support any one idea towards doing it, as its their job to flag issues, not design the game. |
Arondor
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2008.06.13 13:23:00 -
[47]
i agree with the man from the swarm... I feel dirty
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Takal Cylotar
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.13 16:10:00 -
[48]
signed
____________________
Faith is my armor and Conviction is my sword. |
procurement specialist
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Posted - 2008.06.13 17:17:00 -
[49]
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Li Malak
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Posted - 2008.06.13 20:55:00 -
[50]
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Entelechia
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.13 20:57:00 -
[51]
The mechanism to setup and manage POS's right now is pretty bad. Fully support this.
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Autopilot Engaged
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.13 21:31:00 -
[52]
A simple solution would be to allow queuing of anchoring and/or onlining of structures. It still limits the number of structures that can be anchored/onlined in a given timeframe while not requiring that someone sit on their ass for 6 hours (literally) to anchor and online a POS. |
Keiran Brie
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.13 23:13:00 -
[53]
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Will Hunter
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.13 23:17:00 -
[54]
suporting
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Toman Jerich
Ars ex Discordia
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.13 23:32:00 -
[55]
Please fix issues that cause our logistics friends to burn out. Because I don't want to ever have to do any form of logistics myself.
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Mia Morningstar
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Posted - 2008.06.13 23:35:00 -
[56]
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Solidius
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Posted - 2008.06.14 00:03:00 -
[57]
What he said. |
Gorfob
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 00:44:00 -
[58]
Setting up POS's is quite possibly the most soul destroying thing I have ever done in a game to date. I didn't login for days afterwards because when I did the POS was going to be sitting there mocking me.
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Shere
Duragon Pioneer Group
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 00:58:00 -
[59]
The way someone could possibly disagree with this is to have never set up a POS before. |
TWD
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.14 01:46:00 -
[60]
No, it's in favor of carebearification.
If putting up POS is easier it will mean that POS spam is also easier. 0.0 wars should be more about PvP and less about POS spam. |
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Pezzle
Imperial Dreams
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.14 01:55:00 -
[61]
I would agree with you TWD, but CCP put a hard limit on the number of towers you can erect in a system. While I am not in favor of superior defenses springing up instantly on a tower the manual time in terms of sitting and doing nothing should be reduced. This of course ignores the mind numbing time wasted on industrial towers. This issue merits review. Being able to set up a configuration in queue (for example) would make the life hating experience of tower setup more tolerable.
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TWD
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.14 02:03:00 -
[62]
I don't know about any hard limit ;) There is only a 5 POS per day limit as far as I know! |
Dannie Trejo
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Posted - 2008.06.14 02:04:00 -
[63]
Originally by: TWD
No, it's in favor of carebearification.
If putting up POS is easier it will mean that POS spam is also easier. 0.0 wars should be more about PvP and less about POS spam.
Are you seriously suggesting that the best way to make POS spam unviable is to make it unenjoyable? This is a video game, the object of which is to entertain above all else.
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TWD
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.14 02:26:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Dannie Trejo
Originally by: TWD
No, it's in favor of carebearification.
If putting up POS is easier it will mean that POS spam is also easier. 0.0 wars should be more about PvP and less about POS spam.
Are you seriously suggesting that the best way to make POS spam unviable is to make it unenjoyable? This is a video game, the object of which is to entertain above all else.
Nah, I'm saying that making the placement of POS easier than it is now (and making POS spam more viable) is bad for PvP in 0.0
If it's unenjoyable for you then I suggest to place less POS. |
Dannie Trejo
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Posted - 2008.06.14 02:37:00 -
[65]
Originally by: TWD
Originally by: Dannie Trejo
Originally by: TWD
No, it's in favor of carebearification.
If putting up POS is easier it will mean that POS spam is also easier. 0.0 wars should be more about PvP and less about POS spam.
Are you seriously suggesting that the best way to make POS spam unviable is to make it unenjoyable? This is a video game, the object of which is to entertain above all else.
Nah, I'm saying that making the placement of POS easier than it is now (and making POS spam more viable) is bad for PvP in 0.0
If it's unenjoyable for you then I suggest to place less POS.
So I'm guessing you didn't read the OP, then?
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TWD
Evolution
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.14 02:45:00 -
[66]
Yeah, it happens to be that I read the OP fully. (This time) |
Dannie Trejo
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Posted - 2008.06.14 02:47:00 -
[67]
So how about you tell me why any of the arguments I've raised are incorrect? There are better ways to reduce POS spam than to make it soul-destroyingly tedious.
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Nynaeve Ares
Animus Incarnate
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