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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 23:37:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Heartstone
Nope. I don't this all the choises he has made are perfect but considering what he has been up against (and I'm not talking about the goons or anything like that rather the lack of support from CCP) I think he has done a resonable job of it.
Biased? yes of course.
Overly so? No not really. I'll happy tell him he sucks if he does ;)
Wait, you think its O.K. when the CSM chair applies bais and moderating the discussion because CCP hasn't provided the best tools they could have?
How in the world can you make the logical connection between those.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 15:00:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
Edited by: Jade Constantine on 14/06/2008 05:26:00
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
I posted here in response to your post here mentioning me by name. It's right here in this thread.
Yep thats right I had stated that you were too smart to be seen wasting everyone's time with a crappy motion like this. I'm happy to take it back. Obviously you aren't that smart after all. If you had "moved on" then why provoke this argument by claiming I blocked your motions when what I actually did was explain to you the process of how the Issues had to be raised?
Seriously Darius. You need to chill and bow out of this stupid thread. Its not helping your good judgment to be forced to perform for the goon chorus.
Because only when it became clear that you would lose such a vote did you declare unilaterally that all such votes were verboten. The council had been running administrative procedural votes for three meetings in the same manner before the call to remove was placed. You had brought administrative procedural votes to these meetings with no objections.
You're a liar. You twist the truth so that you can say things that might be maybe possibly true in order to convey other meanings. A good example is when a goon re-hosted your maison site. You said "i have nothing to do with the hosting of that page" which, despite you creating the page, hosting it on your own domain for a long time, having posted in other boards in confirmation of you owning the site, could possibly construed to be true because that particular copy you did not put online. You said this to disassociate yourself from the content.
Its the same thing here. It is technically true that you did not "block" the motion, but only because there is no technical procedure called "blocking" that you could have taken advantage of.
You did stop the motion from going to a vote.
You did previously allow motions of similar nature from going to a vote
You had previously brought similar motions to a vote
You had never objected before to any procedural motion before such a point
So what changed? The motion was unfavorable to you and was likely to pass. Just like when you editorialized Hardin's motion (after without right or justification barring him from a meeting) to formalize the process by which alternatives entered and left the status of equal voting members.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 16:19:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Farrqua
Originally by: fuze
I wished CCP never unbanned your sorry behind.
Um, what?
Jade was banned from the forums for a significant amount of time(for doing pretty much exactly what he is doing here). A few months before taking sign ups for the CSM CCP issued a blanket amnesty for all forum accounts that were not removed due to serious infractions(like posting goatse on the forums)
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 16:52:00 -
[4]
The chair is an equal voting member there is no reason to disallow him from partaking in discussion and voting. There are 9 people on the council and so long as the chair doesn't attempt to railroad the others and powergrab so that the CSM does what he wants when he wants there is no problem with it.
Non-voting chairs are precautions that need to be taken in larger bodies where the sheer number of people make participation skew the process too much to also allow the chair to participate in discussions and vote on resolutions.
It should not be needed here, and until its shown that such a system does not work with a reasonable person at in the chair its unreasonable to suggest it should be changed.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 17:18:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Mister Spanky
I've never been a member of a committee that allowed the Chair a vote in any other circumstance other than a dead heat.
I have. It went fairly well, but there were only 12 of us.
Quote:
Oh I see. You don't want to resolve the issue amicably. You just want to get rid of Jade no matter what. Okay, that's a perfectly reasonable position to take, I guess. I was just trying to be diplomatic.
No, if Jade can be reasonable there is nothing wrong with Jade being the chair. Jade should only be removed if he cannot be reasonable. If there is anything "not diplomatic" its telling an elected member of the council their vote should only count in the event of a tie.
We all know what happens when you tell an elected member of the council that their votes don't count. Jade did it, and we have to deal with the fallout.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.14 18:01:00 -
[6]
Originally by: d'hofren
Hang on Goum, point of order here. I think I should explain HOW forum bans used to work, just so people have the full background the olf forum ban thing.
Forum bans use to be issued after a set number of warnings. Warnings did not expire over time. The longer a person participated on the the eve-o forums the more likely they were to rack up the warnings and thus be subjected to an infinite time ban.
You have been around on SHC long enough to know that back then a lot of the more active forum folks got hit with perma bans. It's part of the reason that SHC was set up IIRC.
Wasn't it three warnings and your out?
I've received one warning my entire time on the forums and I've been more prolific in terms of posts and words than most people(E.G. I have 40% more posts than Jade with a higher average character count). You had to be pretty consistently abusive to receive enough warnings to get banned because of it. Granted it could be "light" abuse. But its very unlikely for it to occur without that pattern of behavior.
Given Jades posting here and elsewhere I am not surprised in the least that he was given an involuntary permanent vacation. Especially since, in this environment, where we ought to be talking about stuff that is fairly in game politic neutral(in a game where we shoot each other and generally harbor ill will), and so you would expect the debate to be more tame than when you are talking about things like who won what engagement and who was winning a war, he has done little but insult others and insinuate about some conspiracy against him.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.15 11:23:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Qaedienne
...
lets not make any mistakes here. This started when Jade Constantine threw out Hardin from a meeting against the language in the CSM founding document. He exerted powers that he did not have in order to gain an advantage over an in game enemy.
This escalated when Hardin brought a general motion to the council to formalize when alternates were to stand in for elected representatives. Jade argued hard against this vote, and why wouldn't he, he had just, the previous meeting, excluded another representative with no grounds or authority. When Jade lost that vote he editorialized it in a manner to make everyone else look bad. A member of the council named Inanna Zunni objected to this.
Later, in that same meeting, Jade muted Inanna for making points of order without explanation which many of the council members objected to and then during another vote badgered council members who had already voted into changing their vote before it ended.
Are Goonswarm just "defending their own" in some partisan political play?
Unlikely, Hardin is no friend to goonswarm, we are neutral. We have worked together in the past but typically fight each other. We have a mutual understanding that each will use each other for their own means until such a time as it becomes strategically expedient to do the opposite.
We can work together on the council because we also have a mutual understanding that the council is not a place for those machinations. There is nothing to gain for GS or to take away from our enemies when the game is made more fun everyone benefits. Whether or not that is for the 10,000 people playing factional warfare, the 20,000 people in 0.0 or the 40 people who want to destroy stations. There is only the goal to make the game that we all play better.
Inanna Zunni is a member of Electus Matari, an enemy of CVA for their entire time within the game. Allies to Ursha Kahn during the war where CVA took their space and sent them back to Empire and in general not good friends.
In terms of relevancy to us, Jade Constantine is farther off the radar that groups like Repo who are so far off the radar that half of the goons probably don't even know who they are despite war decs going on for the past year or so. Most what we have had to talk about internally is explaining who Jade was to the majority of Goons.
We have no reason to support either of these people, nor to move against Jade. It gains us nothing.
It is only if the council is to be subverted from its goal of making the game better that we would have any reason to be up in arms. Because we have a stake in having fun.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.16 06:14:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Qaedienne
I'm not aware of anyone (other than yourself) claiming that there is a conspiracy going on in the council.
Have you even read these threads? Its Jade Constantine who has claimed a Goon Conspiracy.
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/792898/page/2#48
Also, I am not claiming there is a conspiracy. Malfeasance by a single member is not a conspiracy.
Originally by: Qaedienne
You mean this?:
Yes, you will note I said "it started" because that was what kicked it off. Since all parties involved were content to deal with it the next time the conflict was delayed. Then Hardin brought the motion to ensure that it would not happen again,then Jade had a hissy fit when the vote didn't go her way.
Quote:
She had also restated the proposal earlier in the conversation in the exact way you claim is editorialized, and no one objected:
Inanna Zunni did. Hardin and Inanna had earlier.
Regarding the "badgering" you must just be reading this selectively
go Here for the logs and Inannas objection.
Quote:
Jade muted Inanna for disrupting a vote. This was something that was voted on in the first meeting, and it is right for her to do this.
No it was not. Please post the full logs that show this(i say this with full knowledge that the logs show only a vote that not everyone gets channel op which has no explicit or implicit meaning that anyone does have authority to use them at their digression or even that anyone at all had them specifically.
Quote:
Are strawmen really that dangerous to Goonswarm?
I am sorry is that not what is being alleged?
Originally by: Qaedienne
According to Darius, he only represents Goonswarm interests on the council. You guys had better get your stories straight.
No, the only one who has done that is Jade Constantine. Though it seems he has edited the posts on Eve-O that show it.
http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=13084.msg454559#msg454559
Originally by: Qaedienne
The Euros were up past midnight already. He didn't demand anything regarding the U.S. CSM's, he simply scheduled the meeting. He explained why the meeting had to be held on Thursday, also (submission deadline). He also scheduled a second meeting for Sunday so that all could attend.
The second meeting had nothing to do with the first. No one was asking that he schedule the meeting on a date after the deadline. The Euros were not up past midnight, the GMT time for the meeting was 20:00. Or 8PM
Quote:
Dissent can be justified. Do you feel like you have done this? Do you feel like most of the things you have accused Jade of can even be justified?
Absolutely. And we have presented our case far and wide. You have not presented a rebuttal. Do so if you think it is not justified.
Quote:
Scheduling meetings is mundane. Your claim that there's some malfeasance going on regarding this has been proven baseless, but you persist in your accusation.
Saying "nuh uh" without argument or evidence is not "proven baseless"
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.16 18:22:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Goumindong on 16/06/2008 18:25:23
Because Jade Constantine overstepped his authority, denigrated the other members of the council, used the chair as a bully pulpit, and accepts no fault or responsibility for what happened.
Seriously, read the thread.
ed: What do you mean the OP says nothing, are you sure you are reading it?
Originally by: The OP
Deeply disturbed by the actions of the current chair, Jade Constantine, in CSM Meeting Three and during the time since, including editorializing at the time of the meeting, and muting an elected CSM representative who spoke out against said editorializing,
Further deploring Jade Constantine's failure to take responsibility for said failures as Chairperson, as well as his threatening of further immature and reprehensible actions,
Originally by: The OP
Yeah. I have too much free time. Aside from the manner in which it is written I think it speaks for itself. The thread for CSM Meeting 3, with relevant Jadeisms, can be found here - http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=788122&page=5
If Jade can't take responsibility for her actions, there is no hope that she will avoid those actions in the future, especially as Jade has threatened to be even MORE childish in her future.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.17 01:47:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar
I think this vendeta has gone a bit too far.
What vendetta?
For the rest of it, you still haven't read the thread. We've been over all of that multiple times.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.18 11:19:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hastur DragonTooth
Originally by: Goumindong
Because Jade Constantine overstepped his authority, denigrated the other members of the council, used the chair as a bully pulpit, and accepts no fault or responsibility for what happened.
Seriously, read the thread.
Thumbs down.
And you're not using this thread as a bully pulpit, to denigrate the council chair? Out of the 520+ replies in this thread, probably a hundred are from you personally. You want Jade to fail and are taking every opportunity to try and make that happen. You sir, are just as bad as jade.
Ad hominem tu quoque. Its also false. I am just a prolific forum *****. Get the evidence and make a decision based upon it, its not my fault the only reasonable conclusion you can come to is unfavorable to Jade.
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