Originally by: The MapMaker

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You're telling a CSM representative to resign because they were unfairly muted and went on to talk about it? I think you've forgotten to put your Star Fraction ticker on there buddy.

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Originally by: Pringlescan

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How can we have someone as chairperson who is obviously so decisive.

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Originally by: Qaedienne

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Originally by: The MapMaker

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You're telling a CSM representative to resign because they were unfairly muted and went on to talk about it? I think you've forgotten to put your Star Fraction ticker on there buddy.

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Inanna accused Jade of willful wrong-doing in the meeting before she was muted, so obviously that didn't have to do with the muting. She did it multiple times, also. Then she accused Jade of willful wrong-doing for muting her, and continues to accuse Jade of willful wrong-doing both for muting her, as well as for pretty much everything else Jade did in the meeting.

Inanna has been consistently focused in her accusations against Jade, both before the muting as well as after. It needs to stop, or Inanna should step down. She is not acting in the interest of the player base. She didn't add anything to CSM meeting 3 except her criticisms of Jade, and she isn't doing anything now to resolve the issues the council is having.

She can certainly do all of that from the e-o-boards, just like all the members of GoonFleet. There's no reason to waste a council seat for that. Give it to someone who can focus on game issues.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Well you and I disagree on the issue of the muting obviously. I say fickle because it was one decision out of a fractious 4 hour meeting which otherwise place a lot of good issues onto the agenda for the forthcoming meetings with ccp. Now perhaps you are right, perhaps I'm wrong. But end of the day you get the whole package when you vote for someone - I'm passionate and mission-orientated when I get involved in something like this. I intended from day one to make a go of this process hence the major effort I've put into issue research/agenda building/feedback and driving the skeletal structure of the CSM towards something like a working model. Yes yesterday was messy as all hell and lots of disagreements came from my decision to mute Inanna. But you know what? I'm proud of the fact we slaved away on a hot evening for 4 hours to get 15 player issues onto the agenda for Iceland despite everything. I'd rather have imperfect accomplishments than perfect nothing. Over these past three weeks we've built up this process from virtually nothing and are going to achieve everything expected of us in the CSM docs.

As others have pointed out we aren't making money out of this - everyone is taking time from work, we're paying for our own beer and going to Iceland for a lot of meetings and chit-chat and PR stuff for the general good of this game.

So if you want to sit back and say "hey jade as a chairman you're rubbish" over a 30sec mute intention to get a vote done at the end of a 4 hour meeting and say my judgment is critically flawed as a result then hey, be my guest.

But taken in the context of the huge amount of effort I (and other CSM reps) have put into making this process actually work rather than simply throwing our hands up in the air and blaming it all on ccp and non-delivery of resources and promises then you are going to need to take a little criticism in return.

Yes, fickle is not unreasonable.

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Originally by: Qaedienne

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Here:

http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=788122

(snip)

Based on your responses quoted above, along with the accusations you made during the meeting, I'd ask you to stop making trouble in and about the CSM or resign your position.

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Originally by: Mica Swanhaven

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ummm no, jade is doing her job fine.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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As to the general complaints about muting raised here. I stand 100% behind what I did. And I'd do exactly the same next time, to any CSM member who ignores 2 formal warnings on disruptive behaviour.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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The lesson learned from that last meeting is for the Chair to be firmer, sooner, and take a much more vigorous hand in preventing unrecognized interruptions from the representatives LaVista. If people will not follow the discipline of raising their hand to be recognized to speak then it is impossible to keep order between nine people in an text chat. If this happens again I'll be inclined to act earlier and more decisively to warn the people doing this and ensure we don't waste time with pointless cross talk and off-topic interruptions while we are trying to go through the agenda.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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while I have admitted some mistakes in that meeting I don't believe muting Inanna was one of them and I stand by that decision.

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Originally by: Jade Constantine

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Where things have gone wrong have been where I've made the mistake of allowing this council a little too much democracy and allowed them to impact the constitution of the CSM itself. Inevitably it led to problems as people try to vote themselves advantage.

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Originally by: Theramin Dogon

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The CSMs are representative of the players.

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Nobody voted for someone to get silenced during the council.

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After it was discovered that she had been muted, and then kicked (due to the bug we've all been made aware of), she had every right to criticize Jade, as did the other council members.

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Originally by: Qaedienne

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Thanks for pointing that out. Jade Constantine was returned as the top vote-getter, and per the CSM rules is the chairperson of the council.

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Originally by: Qaedienne

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Just wanted to bring that up now, as it's going to be something you fail to recognize throughout the rest of your whine.

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Originally by: Qaedienne

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That's not something that is voted on. The chairperson has that responsibility.

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Originally by: Qaedienne

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Before she had been muted, she had:

*Asked if Bane had apologized for showing up late.
*Pointed out PIE had retracted a war.
*Pointed out 2 council members did not have *****es.
*Accused Jade of making a biased statement in phrasing the first vote.
*Accused Jade of editorializing in the phrasing of the 2nd vote.
*Accused Jade of not being a neutral chairperson.
*Accused Jade of not being neutral again.
*Accused Jade of editorializing again.
*Corrected Jade's phrasing of "if we run out of time" to "if we have spare time".
*Corrected Jade's spelling (your/you're).
*Abstained from a vote.
*Argued that abstention was a vote (it's not, by definition).
*Accused Serenity of abuse.
*Accused Serenity of suggesting she (Inanna) doesn't care.
*Suggested Serenity learns what abstention means.
*Argued the council should not determine if simple majority is necessary, rather than at least 5 "aye" votes being required, calling it a pointless question.
*Accuses the council of not meeting the minimum requirement for understanding how a committee/organization works before standing for election.
*Argues again that the council should not determine simple majority vs 5 aye votes, as it's being voted on.
*Refuses to vote on the question of simple majority vs 5 aye votes, as she feels it's obvious simple majority is correct. With irony abounding, 5 aye votes wins by simple majority vote, 4-3, with Inanna heavily favoring simple majority but abstaining on philosophic grounds.
*Objects to having no vote recorded.
*Asks Jade to "Chair this meeting sensible".
*Emotes pity for anyone reading the meeting log.
*Interrupts the vote regarding outpost destruction to point out that not enough time was given for discussion. When offered the chance to speak for the record, votes no instead.
*Abstains from voting on large hull exploration ship.
*Refuses to recognize the vote on simple majority vs 5 aye votes.
*While Jade checks the chat log to verify the vote count on simple majority vs 5 aye votes, Inanna accuses Jade of calling the vote twice.
*Accuses Jade of wishing "to interpret other people's positions" regarding votes.
*On the re-vote of simple majority vs 5 aye votes, Inanna refuses to participate saying that the matter is concluded (simple majority winning) even though the council previously voted against (with Inanna abstaining).
*Accuses Jade of attributing a nonsense position to her(Inanna) in the first vote.
*Corrects Jade's spelling again (bare/bear).
*When given a formal warning for "interruptions and interfering with the chair" (a vote), Inanna claims "'Formal warning' is a misnomer".

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The only CSM who has expressed any interest in silencing other members is Jade Constantine.

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He's stated that he may have been "too democratic".

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In fact, it's been Jade Constantine who has been more contrary towards the other CSMs than the other way around, yet he still believes that the rest of the council needs unilateral moderation.

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This is not how a council is supposed to work, and this is why there are now threads about a vote of no confidence.

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That is absolutely correct. Turns out, people are starting to disagree with him; Herschel Yamamoto, for example, says he voted for Jade, but now feels disenfranchised by his recent actions. Some people think that waiting for the next election period is only going to make things worse.

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No.

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Says who? CCP hasn't said anything. There's nothing like that in the CSM documentation. It was Jade's idea.

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So I guess what you want to say is that the Chairman is the only one who should be able to say anything, and that the rest of the CSMs are there for "aye" and "nay" votes?

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If not, please clarify each of these points (to include context) with why you think they are worth bringing up so we might address them and understand your stance.

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Originally by: Qaedienne

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That's a solution when there are CSM's who treat a council meeting the way Goons treat the CAOD board.

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Originally by: Qaedienne

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He is being too democratic. The last meeting went 4 hours long and they never even agreed to how their own votes will be determined. If Jade hadn't been pushy about it, they might not have gotten all the player issues voted on in time for their meeting with CCP.

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Originally by: Qaedienne

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You're wrong. Darius by himself has posted more **** about Jade then she has about the rest of the council. The council needs to focus on getting the player issues to CCP, not *****ing about the chair and calling points of order and ****.

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Originally by: Qaedienne

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A council is supposed to take so long to meet that nothing gets accomplished? A council is supposed to not even agree on what constitutes a successful vote? A council is supposed to nit-pick the **** out of each others spelling and phrasing instead of getting through the topics? Individual council members are supposed to disagree with and recognize the exact opposite results of whatever votes they prefer?

Councils require strong chair-persons for the reasons I listed above, and Jade was elected the chairperson democratically. It is her responsibility to chair the council, and anyone who tries to remove her as chair is messing with the democratic process of the council.

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Originally by: Qaedienne

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And some people think some people shouldn't try to overturn a democratic process just because some people's panties are in a twist.

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Originally by: Qaedienne

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Says me. If you disagree, please find an example of a chairperson who does not have any control of the meetings they run.

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Originally by: Qaedienne

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Unsurprisingly, you guessed wrong. CSM members do not get to hijack meetings and interfere with votes. Jade was more than obliging with Inanna.

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Originally by: Theramin Dogon

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Originally by: Qaedienne

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Thanks for pointing that out. Jade Constantine was returned as the top vote-getter, and per the CSM rules is the chairperson of the council.

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That is absolutely correct. Turns out, people are starting to disagree with him; Herschel Yamamoto, for example, says he voted for Jade, but now feels disenfranchised by his recent actions. Some people think that waiting for the next election period is only going to make things worse.

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Originally by: Qaedienne

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*Asked if Bane had apologized for showing up late.
*Pointed out PIE had retracted a war.
*Pointed out 2 council members did not have *****es.
*Accused Jade of making a biased statement in phrasing the first vote.
*Accused Jade of editorializing in the phrasing of the 2nd vote.
*Accused Jade of not being a neutral chairperson.
*Accused Jade of not being neutral again.
*Accused Jade of editorializing again.
*Corrected Jade's phrasing of "if we run out of time" to "if we have spare time".
*Corrected Jade's spelling (your/you're).
*Abstained from a vote.
*Argued that abstention was a vote (it's not, by definition).
*Accused Serenity of abuse.
*Accused Serenity of suggesting she (Inanna) doesn't care.
*Suggested Serenity learns what abstention means.
*Argued the council should not determine if simple majority is necessary, rather than at least 5 "aye" votes being required, calling it a pointless question.
*Accuses the council of not meeting the minimum requirement for understanding how a committee/organization works before standing for election.
*Argues again that the council should not determine simple majority vs 5 aye votes, as it's being voted on.
*Refuses to vote on the question of simple majority vs 5 aye votes, as she feels it's obvious simple majority is correct. With irony abounding, 5 aye votes wins by simple majority vote, 4-3, with Inanna heavily favoring simple majority but abstaining on philosophic grounds.
*Objects to having no vote recorded.
*Asks Jade to "Chair this meeting sensible".
*Emotes pity for anyone reading the meeting log.
*Interrupts the vote regarding outpost destruction to point out that not enough time was given for discussion. When offered the chance to speak for the record, votes no instead.
*Abstains from voting on large hull exploration ship.
*Refuses to recognize the vote on simple majority vs 5 aye votes.
*While Jade checks the chat log to verify the vote count on simple majority vs 5 aye votes, Inanna accuses Jade of calling the vote twice.
*Accuses Jade of wishing "to interpret other people's positions" regarding votes.
*On the re-vote of simple majority vs 5 aye votes, Inanna refuses to participate saying that the matter is concluded (simple majority winning) even though the council previously voted against (with Inanna abstaining).
*Accuses Jade of attributing a nonsense position to her(Inanna) in the first vote.
*Corrects Jade's spelling again (bare/bear).
*When given a formal warning for "interruptions and interfering with the chair" (a vote), Inanna claims "'Formal warning' is a misnomer".

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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That's not really an accurate statement of my beliefs. I voted for Jade, and I'd probably still vote for Jade-the-CSM-Member. I just find the process of electing the Chair to be extremely unfortunate, because it gave us an inadequate Chair. If Jade had done the sensible thing(given his support of an elected Chair) and stepped down as Chair right off the bat, this would all have been avoided, or at least deserved if he got re-elected to the spot. But he didn't - I'm still not entirely sure why not, though I could hazard a guess at this point - and so we're left with this mess.

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Originally by: Herschel Yamamoto

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Unfortunately. these godforsaken forums won't let me fisk that list properly inside of ten posts. That said, at least 2/3 of the actions posted on there are both reasonable and correct, and the rest are no worse than other, non-silenced, people's actions. Seriously, you're calling abstaining misconduct?

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