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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Bokkie
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Posted - 2008.06.17 09:46:00 -
[211]
Supported
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Rouque Vanderbuilt
Nuts and Bolts
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Posted - 2008.06.17 12:31:00 -
[212]
/signed
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Molock Saronen
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Posted - 2008.06.17 12:41:00 -
[213]
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Rodanine
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.06.17 17:21:00 -
[214]
i find it rather interesting i thought ccp normally banned the people who exploit the game not those that find the exploits and report them to ccp to fix. at least thats the way i see it i mean come on a ccp person cheated he got caught by a player and then ban the person who caught him thats just pure BS. the ccp employee should have been fired on the spot for what he did and then be perma banned from the game not the other way around. yes this is an alt get over it |
Divus
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.17 20:45:00 -
[215]
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.18 06:55:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON If the case is that he did nothing to CCP then I cannot see a reason for them to have been banned. I've seen other MMO's ban people for items posted on guild websites and such and have always found it to be in bad form. I'll have to reserve judgement however until I understand the details. I cannot condone anything illegal.
Kug gets blown up by BoB members and gets smack talked. Kug uses "sources" to get information (illegally) from BoB forums Kug (illegally) finds out dev cheating helps BoB and is happy Kug exposes this Kug gets accounts banned Kug gets VERY ****ed off because he misses getting to play EVE Kug threatens CCP and gets no results Kug uses his "sources" to get info (illegally) on some other innocent GM's (not devs) Kug threatens again and is again ignored Kug gets more ****ed about his eve addiction not being satisfied Kug assumes that the enslaver stuff will get him "unbanned" Kug is even more ****ed now so he will use "sources" to out other GM's in alliances that are associated with BoB
This pretty much covers it.
If you don't want to get caught with mud on your hands don't play in the mud. I can't feel sorry for bad people getting caught doing bad things.
The GM had done nothing wrong, simply a know GM character can't stay in game. CCP rules.
So those GM had to retire established characters to satisfy Kug anger.
That for me is sufficient reason for a permaban: willfully damaging other players character with out of games methods, more so as he used informations hacked from the GM program from what I know, so from CCP.
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.27 14:35:00 -
[217]
Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
Quote: Originally Posted by Lead GM Grimmi Greetings,
Lead GM Grimmi here. I have been investigating the bans that were placed on your accounts recently. This is a complicated issue and I sincerely apologize for the delay in getting back to you on all this. Now, the accounts were banned, amongst other things, due to serious concerns regarding the alleged method used to collect the information you have posted on your forums. Hacking is a very serious matter and such issues cannot be taken lightly. However, our investigations have not turned up concrete proof of such criminal behavior and there is no reason for us to take action against you for that. Regarding the other TOS articles cited in the ban mail you got;
16. You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users.
18. You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriber's personal information within the EVE Online game world or website.
It can be said with some fairness that the posts you made have caused quite the uproar and created an atmosphere that makes all our lives that much more harder. CCP does not condone cheating, for sure, but dealing with matters such as this one is not made any easier with all the ruckus.
Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever.
Concerns about CCP employee misconduct should be sent to us for investigation. We did not receive any mails from you regarding the issues in question here.
In our view, you have clearly violated the above articles and we will therefore not be removing the bans on your accounts. They will remain permanently banned.
Regards,
Lead GM Grimmi EVE Online Customer Support
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Clavain Treesmighter
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.27 15:48:00 -
[218]
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Marisal
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Posted - 2008.06.27 17:03:00 -
[219]
Edited by: Marisal on 27/06/2008 17:06:28 Edited by: Marisal on 27/06/2008 17:03:28
Originally by: Torshin Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
Quote: GM Correspondence...
PROVE he is the only one to receive a ban over posting personal info, if he's having issues over the contract he agreed to and then is accused to have broken he should be taking it up with a contract law lawyer, not some internal organisation of players that ultimately have their say limited by CCP.
If people had really had an issue with how CCP had behaved over this and many other issues they would have voted with their wallets long ago, its not exactly hidden from new players either so that argument that people have invested too much into eve to walk away over such an issue doesn't really hold as the growth of the game wouldn't continue if people really did object strongly.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.06.27 18:36:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Torshin Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
The only one we know was banned for it, as the bans are private. Posting what you have posted is against the EULA, like saying that player XX was banned for so and so.
For all we know there can be thousand of players (and probably there are some teen of them) banned to posting real life informations.
Kug was the only one making his ban know through outside forums from all I know. That is the difference.
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.27 19:08:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Marisal Edited by: Marisal on 27/06/2008 17:16:16 Edited by: Marisal on 27/06/2008 17:06:28 Edited by: Marisal on 27/06/2008 17:03:28
Originally by: Torshin Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
Quote: GM Correspondence...
PROVE he is the only one to receive a ban over posting personal info. If people had really had an issue with how CCP had behaved over this and many other issues they would have voted with their wallets long ago, its not exactly hidden from new players either so that argument that people have invested too much into eve to walk away over such an issue doesn't really hold as the growth of the game wouldn't continue if people really did object strongly.
just because people haven't quit eve doesn't mean that the wrongful banning of players should be ignored. Your argument is trying to say because people still play eve means that everything CCP does is right. Also you are wrong when you state that this isn't exactly hidden because almost all talk about Kugutsumen gets deleted pretty quickly and in order to find anything about it you would have to go back through years of dev blogs.
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.27 19:10:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Torshin Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
The only one we know was banned for it, as the bans are private. Posting what you have posted is against the EULA, like saying that player XX was banned for so and so.
For all we know there can be thousand of players (and probably there are some teen of them) banned to posting real life informations.
Kug was the only one making his ban know through outside forums from all I know. That is the difference.
prove me wrong then because like you said the details of a ban are hard to come by and kept private. It would require me to have access to the records of all bans to prove my point but much easier for you to prove yours so find me a case where another player posted real life information on the forums and got a permanent in game ban.
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2008.06.27 19:20:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Torshin
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Torshin Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
The only one we know was banned for it, as the bans are private. Posting what you have posted is against the EULA, like saying that player XX was banned for so and so.
For all we know there can be thousand of players (and probably there are some teen of them) banned to posting real life informations.
Kug was the only one making his ban know through outside forums from all I know. That is the difference.
prove me wrong then because like you said the details of a ban are hard to come by and kept private. It would require me to have access to the records of all bans to prove my point but much easier for you to prove yours so find me a case where another player posted real life information on the forums and got a permanent in game ban.
That's not how it works. I don't come up to you and say "There are a thousand unicorns hiding behind Jupiter, PROVE ME WRONG." If you assert something, the burden of truth is placed on you. You have to prove what you're saying is fact, everyone else doesn't have to prove otherwise. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8) |
Marisal
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Posted - 2008.06.27 20:26:00 -
[224]
Edited by: Marisal on 27/06/2008 20:28:13
Originally by: Torshin
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Torshin Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
The only one we know was banned for it, as the bans are private. Posting what you have posted is against the EULA, like saying that player XX was banned for so and so.
For all we know there can be thousand of players (and probably there are some teen of them) banned to posting real life informations.
Kug was the only one making his ban know through outside forums from all I know. That is the difference.
prove me wrong then because like you said the details of a ban are hard to come by and kept private. It would require me to have access to the records of all bans to prove my point but much easier for you to prove yours so find me a case where another player posted real life information on the forums and got a permanent in game ban.
You made a categoric statement Originally by: Torshin Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
But offered no evidence to back it up, then claimed you couldn't and say that its much easier to counter your argument, because its more likely that there's evidence supporting the counter to your original argument... so in effect your saying that its far more likely that there is more than just one person that been banned for posting personal information. So in effect you've said your original statement is highly unlikely.
That kinda also brings doubts to everything else you've posted in this thread and seeing as you the OP, kinda makes me doubt the founding of this thread full stop if your willing to counter your own arguments.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.06.27 20:51:00 -
[225]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 27/06/2008 20:52:17
Originally by: Torshin
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Torshin Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
The only one we know was banned for it, as the bans are private. Posting what you have posted is against the EULA, like saying that player XX was banned for so and so.
For all we know there can be thousand of players (and probably there are some teen of them) banned to posting real life informations.
Kug was the only one making his ban know through outside forums from all I know. That is the difference.
prove me wrong then because like you said the details of a ban are hard to come by and kept private. It would require me to have access to the records of all bans to prove my point but much easier for you to prove yours so find me a case where another player posted real life information on the forums and got a permanent in game ban.
Quite hard of hearing?
It is prohibited by the EULA to discuss bans on forums so you will not find information about bans, especially perma bans in the forum.
Got it?
Most players will not discuss perma bans outside the EVE forums so you will not find information on who was banned and why.
Only those like your hero that will start whines saying "I was unjustly banned for revealing several people personal informations" will be found. And CCP will not comment in those outsider forums or in the CCP forum on that.
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.27 22:10:00 -
[226]
Edited by: Torshin on 27/06/2008 22:12:37 the evidence that i can provide is other people posting real life information about others and not receiving bans because of it. Kug got banned for posting the real life information of other players on EVE-O. Other posters have posted real life information of others on eve-o and remain in game to this day. Now I was incorrect in stating that he is the only one to receive a ban for this because its impossible to prove. I can state that its extremely hypocritical to ban some for this action and not ban others as well. My point is kug is not the only person known to have posted real life information on EVE-O but he is the only person known to have banned for it therefore it is completely ridiculous to ban him for it.
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Marisal
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Posted - 2008.06.28 00:39:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Torshin
the evidence that i can provide is other people posting real life information about others and not receiving bans because of it.
Saying is not proof you have to actually show it. Originally by: Torshin Kug got banned for posting the real life information of other players on EVE-O. Other posters have posted real life information of others on eve-o and remain in game to this day. Now I was incorrect in stating that he is the only one to receive a ban for this because its impossible to prove.
If its impossible to prove its kinda of a mute argument then. But it semi proves the other point that others have been banned for posting real life info.
Originally by: Torshin I can state that its extremely hypocritical to ban some for this action and not ban others as well. My point is kug is not the only person known to have posted real life information on EVE-O but he is the only person known to have banned for it therefore it is completely ridiculous to ban him for it.
In your opinion it may be hypocritical to only ban some of those that post real life info, but im fairly sure ccp reserves the right to treat each case individually and look at the circumstances surrounding it. Just because he might have pseudo-celebrity because of the incidents that led to his ban doesn't give him any right to be exempt from the rules. Im fairly sure there are others that have been banned for posting real life info, should their ban be also lifted? change the rule for one you have to change the rule for all.
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aUTOKILL
Gallente Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.06.28 10:22:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Marisal Saying is not proof you have to actually show it.
if you do a tiny bit of research, you will find the proof he is talking about in its whole. ~~~~~~ doin it for the stats
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.06.28 17:29:00 -
[229]
Originally by: aUTOKILL
Originally by: Marisal Saying is not proof you have to actually show it.
if you do a tiny bit of research, you will find the proof he is talking about in its whole.
Torshin is the one affirming something, so he can work to prove it. |
Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.06.28 20:15:00 -
[230]
No support.
The CSM was not formed because of the banned individuals revelations. CCP did institute an internal investigation process largely because of incident Kug publicized, but this has little or nothing to do with the CSM.
At the end of the day, Kug took actions intended to harm CCP and CCP's player base. When he attempted to blackmail CCP, in clearly indicated he was intent on repeating his actions whenever he felt the need. CCP is well within their rights to protect their property and exact punitive damages by permanently banning the individual in question.
Kug knew the rules and the penalties for breaking them. He did it anyway. Regardless of whether you think he's a heroe or not, he did what he did the wrong way.
Windjammer
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John Whorfin
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Posted - 2008.06.28 21:26:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Windjammer The CSM was not formed because of the banned individuals revelations. CCP did institute an internal investigation process largely because of incident Kug publicized, but this has little or nothing to do with the CSM.
You are exactly, and remarkably, wrong.
Eve Online: So cut throat that even the officially organized alliance tournaments will screw over players |
Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.06.29 01:36:00 -
[232]
Originally by: John Whorfin
Originally by: Windjammer The CSM was not formed because of the banned individuals revelations. CCP did institute an internal investigation process largely because of incident Kug publicized, but this has little or nothing to do with the CSM.
You are exactly, and remarkably, wrong.
Then allow me to clarify. While the CSM was originally conceived as a response it was eventually decided that CCP's Internal Affairs Department would handle such situations. The idea of what the CSM would be evolved into what it is today. An entity wholly seperated from dealing with avoidance, reporting or correction of any possible internal affair at CCP.
Thus when I say, "The CSM was not formed because of the banned individuals revelations.", it is entirely true and correct. The CSM which exists was not formed because of those revalations. And when I say, "CCP did institute an internal investigation process largely because of incident Kug publicized, but this has little or nothing to do with the CSM.", that too is self evidently true and correct.
Kugs revelations may have provided a catalyst to form a type of CSM, but they have nothing to do with the CSM which was actually formed.
Windjammer |
Heng
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:50:00 -
[233]
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Little Fistter
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Posted - 2008.06.29 15:01:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Rikkard Strofeldt This man did all of EVE a service, and got banned for his trouble.
Not because he broke the rules. Because he made CCP look stupid.
Free Kugutsumen!
Like most players, I will never know all the details, and frankly, it does look like Kugutsumen did us all a service by providing evidence.
But let's be clear: HE did not make CCP look stupid, he simply gathered facts. Now I have used Google to locate lots of Corp and Alliance out-of-game conversations, and reading a publicly-available web site forum is not exactly hacking.
If CCP looked stupid, it was not his fault.
I think CCP should no only unban him, but make him a special representative to the CSM, and empower him to act like the player's investigator (we need that!) but future allegations of DEV or GM misconduct.
Oh, and before someone thinks I am in any way affilliated with Pandemic Legion, I have seen some Sniggs in the game and was podded once by them, but I am not an alt in any way and normally not be sympathetic. But this makes CCP look like gangsters!
CCP: Hear the players, serve the players, not just take the players' money!
I vote UNBAN |
Tyr Vaantau
Amarr Synthetic Frontiers
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Posted - 2008.06.29 16:51:00 -
[235]
There are many reasons why Kugs should remain banned. Here's just one:
He broke the rules of the game. If CCP unbanned him, it could be seen that they therefore endorse his methods, which they obviously don't otherwise they wouldn't have banned him.
Plus, you don't seriously think Kugustumen has stopped operating within EVE just because his current account/s got banned at that time?
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Dianeces
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.29 17:22:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Tyr Vaantau
He broke the rules of the game. If CCP unbanned him, it could be seen that they therefore endorse his methods, which they obviously don't otherwise they wouldn't have banned him.
What rules?
Originally by: Tyr Vaantau
Plus, you don't seriously think Kugustumen has stopped operating within EVE just because his current account/s got banned at that time?
Considering he admits he doesn't play; yeah, I think that's a safe assumption to make.
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Kaplanelle
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.29 19:17:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Dianeces
Considering he admits he doesn't play; yeah, I think that's a safe assumption to make.
I wouldn't admit to playing again if I were him, even if I were.
Really though, the lengths that CCP took initially to bury the issue and telling people to FOAD if they didn't like it made them very much in the wrong. The could have removed the illegal BPOs at the time of discovery and it would have made it a much more moot point.
There should be a whistleblower provision given to Kug, as it has improved the game and made CCP get serious about game integrity.
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KeratinBoy
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.29 22:13:00 -
[238]
Marisal, that I can recollect, the original ban on Kugutsumen was stated as being for posting RL info on another player. Half the posters were up in arms because SirMolle had also posted Kugutsumen's RL info on these forums but was not banned.
Given this was at the T20 ground zero time, it was not a wise move by CCP. They then "clarified" that it was the EULA workload violation, a horrifically vague catch-all. SirMolle stills seems to be playing. I'd go looking around for the relevant links/threads but my internet is behaving like an asthmatic sloth at the moment.
Since this took me about ten minutes to do - stoopid intarweb - are you against the unbanning of Kugutsumen? Do you think he was fairly treated? Do you support the idea of a banning review in general but not for him?
(Apologies if you've already stated your position, trying to load pages right now on my connection would make baby Jesus cry)
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Marlona Sky
Caldari D00M. The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.06.29 23:33:00 -
[239]
So is this a "Vote YES if you are in Pandemic Legion/Goonswarm and Friends" and "Vote NO if you are BoB and Friends"??
I tried to do a bit of research but couldn't immediatly find out, what corp was Kugutsumen in?
The topic refers generally to banned players but seems like it is very specific to just this guy. |
DogSlime
Wilde Cards
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Posted - 2008.06.30 01:43:00 -
[240]
Having read about the disgusting T20 affair, I believe he should be allowed to return to the game.
All he really did was to expose just how vile CCP really are - in spite of the fact that Eve is a great game. |
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