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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:28:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Torshin on 09/06/2008 19:28:17 Several years ago Kugutsumen and all of his related accounts were banned for causing disturbances and general EULA violations. I believe that the CSM should bring forward the issue of setting a deadline for when Kugutsumen will be unbanned because it is his actions and revealing the corruption within CCP that lead to the formation of the CSM. I think that his ban should be lifted by the end of this councils term.
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:28:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Torshin on 09/06/2008 19:28:17 Several years ago Kugutsumen and all of his related accounts were banned for causing disturbances and general EULA violations. I believe that the CSM should bring forward the issue of setting a deadline for when Kugutsumen will be unbanned because it is his actions and revealing the corruption within CCP that lead to the formation of the CSM. I think that his ban should be lifted by the end of this councils term.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:32:00 -
[3]
Edited by: lecrotta on 09/06/2008 19:35:46
He hacked so he deserves to be banned forever no matter the result, accepting this sort of behavior just because it perhaps produced results is a slippery slope and a bridge that should not be crossed.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:32:00 -
[4]
Edited by: lecrotta on 09/06/2008 19:35:46
He hacked so he deserves to be banned forever no matter the result, accepting this sort of behavior just because it perhaps produced results is a slippery slope and a bridge that should not be crossed.
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:33:00 -
[5]
[13:31] <Torshin> lets see if anyone replies first though
I totally support whatever this is.
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Anton Marvik
AnTi. Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:33:00 -
[6]
[13:31] <Torshin> lets see if anyone replies first though
I totally support whatever this is.
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Big Al
The Aftermath
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:34:00 -
[7]
Supportin before the delete.
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Sergio Ling
Veto.
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:34:00 -
[8]
No. their house, their rules. _
BET ISK ON ANYTHING AT ALL |
Big Al
The Aftermath
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:34:00 -
[9]
Supportin before the delete.
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Sergio Ling
Veto.
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:34:00 -
[10]
No. their house, their rules. _
BET ISK ON ANYTHING AT ALL |
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:35:00 -
[11]
the hacking that occurred did not involve CCP nor did it affect ccp. Plenty of people have had their forums hacked from GF to Correli to Bruce. His hacking is not the reason he was banned and it remains to be seen whether it was him or one of his associates who actually hacked the RKK forums
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:35:00 -
[12]
the hacking that occurred did not involve CCP nor did it affect ccp. Plenty of people have had their forums hacked from GF to Correli to Bruce. His hacking is not the reason he was banned and it remains to be seen whether it was him or one of his associates who actually hacked the RKK forums
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:38:00 -
[13]
i support this issue. not because i think he earned it because how it added to formation of the csm, but because i was allways disapointed by ccp's response to that matter and because the formal reasoning of ccp for his ban was something alike "he put additional workload to our employees, which is an eula violation".
additionally while they accused him of illegal "hacking", they never showed any proof/evidence to thoose accusations.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:38:00 -
[14]
Anyone care to explain the incident in question? This is one I've never heard of. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:39:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Torshin the hacking that occurred did not involve CCP nor did it affect ccp. Plenty of people have had their forums hacked from GF to Correli to Bruce. His hacking is not the reason he was banned and it remains to be seen whether it was him or one of his associates who actually hacked the RKK forums
He or somebody else broke the rules, but he claimed responsibility for it by his posting of the results of the hack therefore he must accept the consequences.
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:39:00 -
[16]
the incident in question is not up for discussion. If you would like to discuss it visit kugutsumen.com
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:41:00 -
[17]
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Torshin the hacking that occurred did not involve CCP nor did it affect ccp. Plenty of people have had their forums hacked from GF to Correli to Bruce. His hacking is not the reason he was banned and it remains to be seen whether it was him or one of his associates who actually hacked the RKK forums
He or somebody else broke the rules, but he claimed responsibility for it by his posting of the results of the hack therefore he must accept the consequences.
posting chat logs of what are clearly abuses of power by individuals should not constitute a life time ban. Once again the actions you are talking about are not what CCP actually banned the player in question for.
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Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:45:00 -
[18]
If the case is that he did nothing to CCP then I cannot see a reason for them to have been banned. I've seen other MMO's ban people for items posted on guild websites and such and have always found it to be in bad form. I'll have to reserve judgement however until I understand the details. I cannot condone anything illegal.
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:47:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON If the case is that he did nothing to CCP then I cannot see a reason for them to have been banned. I've seen other MMO's ban people for items posted on guild websites and such and have always found it to be in bad form. I'll have to reserve judgement however until I understand the details. I cannot condone anything illegal.
does that mean you are interested in discussing the matter in the original post?
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Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:49:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Torshin
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON If the case is that he did nothing to CCP then I cannot see a reason for them to have been banned. I've seen other MMO's ban people for items posted on guild websites and such and have always found it to be in bad form. I'll have to reserve judgement however until I understand the details. I cannot condone anything illegal.
does that mean you are interested in discussing the matter in the original post?
It means exactly what I said. I cannot condone anything illegal for a multitude of reasons.
Whatever actions were taken, CCP acting on hearsay regarding attacks which were not focused on them is something I find disturbing should it prove to be true. I represent people who have been on the receiving end of claims of "Denial of service" attacks which was farcical at best and I can tell you I don't like the insinuation. I don't find it hard to believe others may have been falsely labeled without merit.
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:49:00 -
[21]
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Torshin the hacking that occurred did not involve CCP nor did it affect ccp. Plenty of people have had their forums hacked from GF to Correli to Bruce. His hacking is not the reason he was banned and it remains to be seen whether it was him or one of his associates who actually hacked the RKK forums
He or somebody else broke the rules, but he claimed responsibility for it by his posting of the results of the hack therefore he must accept the consequences.
the results of his findings did not show that "illegal hacking" was involved in aquiring the information.
he was banned for "putting workload" to ccp employes. a very vague formulation from ccp, which also doesnt explain how a player can protect himself from accidently putting workload to a ccp employee either :P
in the end, every eve player profits from kugutsumens findings and the introduction of the "internal affairs" "department" at ccp.
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Ethaet
Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:50:00 -
[22]
AFAIK from my limited understanding, he hacked a BoB forum and exposed the T20 thing, then got B& for something unrelated (not sure exactly what) -------------------------------------------------------------- Seriously, we need some kind of separation between the post and signature. There you go. Now that wasn't so hard |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:51:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON If the case is that he did nothing to CCP then I cannot see a reason for them to have been banned. I've seen other MMO's ban people for items posted on guild websites and such and have always found it to be in bad form. I'll have to reserve judgement however until I understand the details. I cannot condone anything illegal.
Kug gets blown up by BoB members and gets smack talked. Kug uses "sources" to get information (illegally) from BoB forums Kug (illegally) finds out dev cheating helps BoB and is happy Kug exposes this Kug gets accounts banned Kug gets VERY ****ed off because he misses getting to play EVE Kug threatens CCP and gets no results Kug uses his "sources" to get info (illegally) on some other innocent GM's (not devs) Kug threatens again and is again ignored Kug gets more ****ed about his eve addiction not being satisfied Kug assumes that the enslaver stuff will get him "unbanned" Kug is even more ****ed now so he will use "sources" to out other GM's in alliances that are associated with BoB
This pretty much covers it.
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Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 19:58:00 -
[24]
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON If the case is that he did nothing to CCP then I cannot see a reason for them to have been banned. I've seen other MMO's ban people for items posted on guild websites and such and have always found it to be in bad form. I'll have to reserve judgement however until I understand the details. I cannot condone anything illegal.
Kug gets blown up by BoB members and gets smack talked. Kug uses "sources" to get information (illegally) from BoB forums Kug (illegally) finds out dev cheating helps BoB and is happy Kug exposes this Kug gets accounts banned Kug gets VERY ****ed off because he misses getting to play EVE Kug threatens CCP and gets no results Kug uses his "sources" to get info (illegally) on some other innocent GM's (not devs) Kug threatens again and is again ignored Kug gets more ****ed about his eve addiction not being satisfied Kug assumes that the enslaver stuff will get him "unbanned" Kug is even more ****ed now so he will use "sources" to out other GM's in alliances that are associated with BoB
This pretty much covers it.
If you don't want to get caught with mud on your hands don't play in the mud. I can't feel sorry for bad people getting caught doing bad things.
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Heroldyn
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:00:00 -
[25]
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON If the case is that he did nothing to CCP then I cannot see a reason for them to have been banned. I've seen other MMO's ban people for items posted on guild websites and such and have always found it to be in bad form. I'll have to reserve judgement however until I understand the details. I cannot condone anything illegal.
Kug gets blown up by BoB members and gets smack talked. Kug uses "sources" to get information (illegally) from BoB forums Kug (illegally) finds out dev cheating helps BoB and is happy Kug exposes this Kug gets accounts banned Kug gets VERY ****ed off because he misses getting to play EVE Kug threatens CCP and gets no results Kug uses his "sources" to get info (illegally) on some other innocent GM's (not devs) Kug threatens again and is again ignored Kug gets more ****ed about his eve addiction not being satisfied Kug assumes that the enslaver stuff will get him "unbanned" Kug is even more ****ed now so he will use "sources" to out other GM's in alliances that are associated with BoB
This pretty much covers it.
thats just nonsense. if ccp had evidence that he did something "illegal", the would have banned him for that. and not for "workload". and they would have sued him propably aswell.
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mazzilliu
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:21:00 -
[26]
kugutsumen cant complete my year old courier contract i have with his alt because he's banned and i want my sabres back some day. also the sniggwaffe corp fenrir thanks to ccp
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Gneeznow
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:26:00 -
[27]
Free kugu ! he was banned unjustly.
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Ander
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:27:00 -
[28]
I support unbanning kugutsumen. Yes, I am biased for being in PL.com .
But I believe that there're many others who have done much worse. BoB, RA, Goons. all of them metagame and have their network of spies.
What he did was to out a CCP employee AFTER he had contacted CCP about it. CCP had their usual "yeah we'll see what we can do about it" and then simply ignored it.
He risked everything by posting the proof. He got banned, but on the other hand some wrongs were corrected.
Why did CCP ban him? Not for a good reason imo.
EVE PIRATE
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App Rentoo
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:28:00 -
[29]
Free Nelson ma...errm, yes, free him. ---------------------------------------------- Caldari State corp standing services.
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Tabare Vazquez
Uruguay Forever
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:28:00 -
[30]
Kugutsumen is the only reason for your free vacation to Iceland, you should be thankful.
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Teh Doylan
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:29:00 -
[31]
For the first time, I agree with torshin.
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Saino Feel
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:29:00 -
[32]
Unjustly banned. Voting freedom.
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IHurricane
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:33:00 -
[33]
Supported
---------------------------------------
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Maryla
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:33:00 -
[34]
The way ccp handled t20 case ****es me off to this day and banning Kugutsumen was very lame on their part.
I support this issue.
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Matt'Guitar'Murphy
BluesBrothers
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:35:00 -
[35]
Supported
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eragon alseen
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:37:00 -
[36]
We should thank him for what he did to make this game better.
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Euriti
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:38:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Euriti on 09/06/2008 20:37:51 Unjustly banned.
He exposed what is most likely the greatest scandal in eve so far
FREE KUGUTSUMEN!
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Akira117
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:39:00 -
[38]
Free Kugutsumen!
999.times {print " The Cake is a lie."} |
Darius JOHNSON
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:39:00 -
[39]
I actually find it quite cute that the reason for the council has gone from oversight to what it is today. I've been struggling with a way to get a meeting regarding IA/investigations on the agenda, specifically to learn more about how these things are dealt with, and haven't thought yet of a way to frame it. That is my background so I'd be curious to see how these internal things are handled by them.
I'll try and think of a way to work it in as it's certainly not an item that's been put forth as a game issue, but still a worthwhile pursuit I should think. This can certainly be a part of that discussion if I can make it happen.
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Berious
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:40:00 -
[40]
Unban him
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Von Druid
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:42:00 -
[41]
Without Kugutsumen people would probably still get free T2 BPOs and free motherships through staged events, supporting this.
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:50:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Torshin on 09/06/2008 20:50:24
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I actually find it quite cute that the reason for the council has gone from oversight to what it is today. I've been struggling with a way to get a meeting regarding IA/investigations on the agenda, specifically to learn more about how these things are dealt with, and haven't thought yet of a way to frame it. That is my background so I'd be curious to see how these internal things are handled by them.
I'll try and think of a way to work it in as it's certainly not an item that's been put forth as a game issue, but still a worthwhile pursuit I should think. This can certainly be a part of that discussion if I can make it happen.
thank you very much. I think it is vital that the CSM not only discuss gameplay issues that are important to the player base but issues in general. As well all know there is much more to eve then just the game itself. The CSM should be able to debate issues like this one in particular.
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Romale
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:51:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Romale on 09/06/2008 20:57:05 and kugutsmen did absolutly NOTHING illegal
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ROF''''''''''''''''''''L
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:57:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I actually find it quite cute that the reason for the council has gone from oversight to what it is today. I've been struggling with a way to get a meeting regarding IA/investigations on the agenda, specifically to learn more about how these things are dealt with, and haven't thought yet of a way to frame it. That is my background so I'd be curious to see how these internal things are handled by them.
I'll try and think of a way to work it in as it's certainly not an item that's been put forth as a game issue, but still a worthwhile pursuit I should think. This can certainly be a part of that discussion if I can make it happen.
in the very least as a way of forcing CCP to be honest with itself. blaming the person that exposed one's flaws is not a healthy step to take in the process of removing those flaws, and bringing it up in the very committee that was formed because of it would be rather fitting. it's pretty easy to demonize kugutsumen but it's not CCP's position to police what rules or standards someone allegedly violates outside the game, just the rules in the EULA. to put it in simpler much more drastic terms- i am sure there are murderers with active eve accounts and i do not think there is any push to ban them too. *snip*. Signature removed as it is excessively distracting. Mail us at [email protected] if you have any further queries - Valorem |
Seke Faewyn
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 20:57:00 -
[45]
Fully support bring Kugu back.
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Jeff Drake
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:03:00 -
[46]
Unbanning might undo some of the PR damage this has caused CCP. If CCP does this right they can put a huge positive spin on this unbanning.
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Jeremy Samson
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:05:00 -
[47]
You shouldn't get banned for exposing unjust dev behavior, I'll say unban the fella.
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Zartek Mattlov
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:05:00 -
[48]
Supporting this.
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Usukar
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:06:00 -
[49]
Supporting this.
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Cannibal PLT
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:10:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Cannibal PLT on 09/06/2008 21:10:34 signed -plt |
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Zinerva Ryder
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:12:00 -
[51]
After reading the story on Eve Tribune I support this. The council should definitely try to get some response from CCP on this. From what I read CCP handled this whole matter poorly.
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drako markam
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:20:00 -
[52]
free kugutusmen
a day without blood is like a day without sunshine
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GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:24:00 -
[53]
Always thought getting banned for what he did was out of order.
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Vando
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:34:00 -
[54]
He is banned because he was upsetting people at CCP, not for any game reason. Don't for one second think it was because he acted illegally in any way towards CCP.
As a direct result of his discoveries, possible lines of corruption were removed. Additional communications between CCP and the playerbase were implemented. I think as a community we should be thanking him, even if you disagree with his methods.
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Lawk
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:47:00 -
[55]
All the dude wanted was his rug back.
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Bloodst0ne
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:51:00 -
[56]
Being banned for exposing those who cheatrd was out of order in the first place
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Darpz
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 21:52:00 -
[57]
he did the community a favor and was banned because it was "inconvient" to the devs.
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Syrinthal
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:02:00 -
[58]
Agreed, however would like a clarification as to it being a special case or not - else I think there will be an influx of these cases.
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Qlanth
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:18:00 -
[59]
Dude did a good thing for this community.
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DroneBay Diva
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:18:00 -
[60]
Supporting this _____________________________________________________________________________
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shimmyckus
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:22:00 -
[61]
Edited by: shimmyckus on 09/06/2008 22:23:35 free kugutusmen!
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Wish Kaan
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:27:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Wish Kaan on 09/06/2008 22:27:08 Kugutusmen is a fighter for da ppl and ppl want him free!
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Serbia
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:28:00 -
[63]
Supporting this
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Psilocybe Cubensis
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:29:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Psilocybe Cubensis on 09/06/2008 22:29:17 I'm ofcourse biased due to my corp but I've also heard both sides of the story which put the press releases by CCP and the BoB CAOD-propaganda back then in a whole different light.
The banning of Kugutsumen has been a blemish on CCP's reputation. One which almost made me quit this game. The way they have handled the whole issue has been utterly unprofessional and by unbanning Kugutsumen they can make a gesture to the playerbase that their stance on the matter was sub-optimal in the past and that they have now changed their ways.
Thanks for starting this initiative, Torshin.
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Hamfast
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:31:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON I actually find it quite cute that the reason for the council has gone from oversight to what it is today. I've been struggling with a way to get a meeting regarding IA/investigations on the agenda, specifically to learn more about how these things are dealt with, and haven't thought yet of a way to frame it. That is my background so I'd be curious to see how these internal things are handled by them.
I'll try and think of a way to work it in as it's certainly not an item that's been put forth as a game issue, but still a worthwhile pursuit I should think. This can certainly be a part of that discussion if I can make it happen.
Darius,
While I can't currently find the post, CCP Xhagen said in a post early on in the CSM discussion that if the CSM asked, he would get IA to show up...
Good luck --------*****--------
Learn and be informed, because a Politicians worst nightmare is an informed voter...
So choose your CSM Candidates wisely
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John Whorfin
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:36:00 -
[66]
Supported.
Unban him immediately, and end this grievous miscarriage of justice. Especially given the cheaters, and those that profitted from their actions weren't punished in the least. It's ridiculous that a whistleblower took the only fall. |
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.09 22:44:00 -
[67]
Okay, my ignorance is apparently just the guy's name, because I certainly know of the incident in question. Yeah, this ban is BS, and he ought to get his account back. ------------------ Fix the forums! |
DaMadness
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Posted - 2008.06.09 23:07:00 -
[68]
Edited by: DaMadness on 09/06/2008 23:06:56 Personally I don't know enough details on if his ban was just or not. All I can find on the internet (including Wikipedia) is that he was banned for creating workload.
I support that he ether get unbanned or a just reason be provided as this is a blemish on a company who has created an amasing game.
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Wu Marusyn
Spartan Industrial Manufacturing SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.09 23:16:00 -
[69]
supporting this
sup fạghạm, did you get those knee pads i sent you? |
Lorq vonRay
Spartan Industrial Manufacturing SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.09 23:22:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Lorq vonRay on 09/06/2008 23:23:52 Edited by: Lorq vonRay on 09/06/2008 23:23:28 supporting this, what ever happened to that CCP employee? prob works in the petition dept.
Originally by: John Whorfin Supported.
Unban him immediately, and end this grievous miscarriage of justice. Especially given the cheaters, and those that profitted from their actions weren't punished in the least. It's ridiculous that a whistleblower took the only fall.
just quoting that cause BB is ******* awesome
**edited to include the stupid thumbs up thing
GOD WILLS IT! |
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.09 23:30:00 -
[71]
Never.
CCP handed him a ban. The Ban stays. They are under no obligation to allow anyone to play thier game if they so chose and frankly peeing in the sandbox just makes it moist for everyone.
---
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Vladic Ka
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.09 23:34:00 -
[72]
I support this product and/or service.
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Trezzym
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Posted - 2008.06.09 23:50:00 -
[73]
Agreed, its about time CCP corrects their knee-jerk reaction and banning. |
Theramin Dogon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.09 23:56:00 -
[74]
voting before the thread disappears |
Ymrir
Cog Ex Machina
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Posted - 2008.06.10 00:06:00 -
[75]
He blew the whistle on blatant developer misconduct. CCP denied it, tried to cover it up, and blow clouds of smoke to distract people from it... And when eventually public outcry forced them to admit what happened, and forced the developer to post a public apology about his actions... Kugutsumen was banned.
The way the matter was handled, and the banning of Kugutsumen (under a catch-all "you can't make our jobs harder or we ban you' clause) is a black, black mark on CCP's reputation and showed the playerbase CCP's true face. -- Ad Astra |
Captain Longshlong
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Posted - 2008.06.10 00:12:00 -
[76]
He faced CCP's despotic wrath in the hopes of making the game a better, cheat free place. He's one of the few players that deserves the title of Martyr.
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bogbubble
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.10 00:21:00 -
[77]
i always felt he was banned as CCP's way of discrediting the fact their employee cheated. i support this.
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Ander
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 00:29:00 -
[78]
Just today on slashdot people were discussing developer misconduct and that they unfairly unbanned the whistleblower. The view that CCP are cheating bastards still live on.
This wont change unless CCP actually admits fault.
EVE PIRATE
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Jinx Barker
GFB Scientific
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 00:30:00 -
[79]
OP should modify the thread title from "Player Banning" a rather general and obscure, until one reads the contents, to "Unban Kugutsumen" - that way we will all know what is going on....
As far as I understand, CCP has a full authority to pretty much do anything they want in the game world and on forums. All our stuff belongs to them.... that said, I do not know what exactly happened, even after reading all the information on his forums - I am not certain how he obtained the DB that implicated certain characters in the now-well-established passed scandal.
If he obtained the information legally, or as legally as one can, then I would certainly not mind CSM taking a closer look at the Kugutsumen affair - however, if the information has been obtained via a hack, or other illegal means, then I would not be able to support it at all - even though I am am avid reader of his forums.
Other than that, I am just bumping this thread to see what happens - and if CSM would ask some questions and perhaps prepare a report without too many details on what CCP told them was the reason for banning.
Was it a retaliation for outing some well known characters, was it for illegal actions that lead to the outing that can be proven by CCP? What was it - the affair is well know and widely publicized, a small inquiry would be in order - but I can not support to just "unabn" the guy, need more info.
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Rikkard Strofeldt
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.10 00:38:00 -
[80]
This man did all of EVE a service, and got banned for his trouble.
Not because he broke the rules. Because he made CCP look stupid.
Free Kugutsumen! --
Madness has arisen. |
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Elektrea
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.06.10 00:40:00 -
[81]
Unban!
Happy HOur Minning and Industry
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Kian Jorry
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 00:42:00 -
[82]
- I want to live. I want a home, and children, and peace.
- Do ya?
- Aye, I do. I've asked God for these things. It's all for nothing if you don't have freedom.
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Straife
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 00:56:00 -
[83]
Revealing the truth behind a scandal is NOT a reason to ban someone.
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Dmayhem
Universal Agencies
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 01:30:00 -
[84]
Right the wrongs of the ban.
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Messerschmitt facility
Shinra Shinra Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 01:44:00 -
[85]
I support this. Unban him. If he wouldn't have spoken then we would still have DEV's that cheat in the game we pay. He should've been awarded but not with the ban stick. _________________________________
A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking...
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shuckstar
Hauling hogs CryoGenesis Mining Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.06.10 01:53:00 -
[86]
Originally by: bogbubble i always felt he was banned as CCP's way of discrediting the fact their employee cheated. i support this.
Yep i thought this aswell, supported.
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nikhan
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 02:04:00 -
[87]
Supporting this. |
Ohne
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 02:06:00 -
[88]
Supporting this. |
KardonHarman
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 20:11:00 -
[89]
This should have been done ages ago...
Shame on CCP for shooting the messenger
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Euriti
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 20:14:00 -
[90]
Afaik:
- He didn't hack the RKK forums to get the DB dump. He convinced some admin that he was someone else and was given the dump willingly.
- He went to CCP first with the whole t20 deal and gave them a chance to deal with it, once they did nothing then he went public.
- After the whole thing broke, CCP asked him to take down kugu.com while they investigated, and he did. CCP then banned him, and he brought it back.
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Che Biko
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 21:09:00 -
[91]
At this time I'd just like to know more about CCP's motivation. |
Tesseract d'Urberville
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 21:43:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Che Biko At this time I'd just like to know more about CCP's motivation.
As would I, but this is something where everyone's hands are tied. No matter how unjust it might or might not have seemed to us in any individual case, CCP has the legitimate authority to ban players. And, they can't comment on how the investigation, or the specifics of what happened, because of issues of privacy and confidentiality. We the rest of the players are not privy to all the facts, and it's not appropriate for us to be.
CSM can certainly ask CCP, more generally, how it conducts investigations and the steps it takes in deciding when to ban a player, but asking CCP to unban a player isn't CSM's job.
Sorry, no support.
------------------------ Lord, grant us the senility to forget the people we never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the people we do, and the eyesight to know the difference. |
The Manc
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.06.10 23:35:00 -
[93]
free kugutsumen, this happened just as i started playing eve and i cant believe its still not sorted. |
The MapMaker
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 00:13:00 -
[94]
This isn't about whether or not CCP can ban people they want removed from the game; they have a catchall clause in their TOS which allows them to do just that, and this vote does not challenge it. What it does challenge is their use of the clause in this particular instance- banning Kugutsumen because he was getting uppity and causing massive controversy.
He did some dumb stuff after his banning, like exposing the player character of an innocent dev (though I don't think devs should have player characters in prominent 0.0 allainces personally so I'm not too bothered) but I think emotions over these old issues have died down and it would go a long way to reconcile, and restore trust between, the CCP dev team and the 0.0 playerbase affected by the scandal. |
sakana
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 00:17:00 -
[95]
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Xeios
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 00:55:00 -
[96]
Edited by: Xeios on 11/06/2008 00:54:52 /signed
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Griffinator
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 05:35:00 -
[97]
i was not in Snigg when all this kicked off, so i come from a a fairly unbiased position on this matter(i say fairly unbiased but i do know kugu and taught him when he first started playing eve), in any game if you are caught cheating you get banned, you do it in other games as a matter of course you don't also ban the person who told you to check this person out.
i fully endorse his being able to reenter the world of eve so please unban him as soon as physically possible, he is the reason the council was created he was also the reason why anyone caught being a naughty DEV etc now comes under the internal affairs(lack of better term) section.
So please if you are reading this Big boos of CCP in fact any of you who have the power to do so please let him back in game and show a bit of class.
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Berious
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.11 05:41:00 -
[98]
I really think letting Kugutsumen play again would draw a line under the whole dev misconduct incident and publicly show CCP has made peace with the issue. |
Sigourney Reaver
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 06:25:00 -
[99]
Using an alt just incase |
Chewiebanga
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 06:38:00 -
[100]
Supported!
|
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Shar Tegral
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 07:05:00 -
[101]
If CCP can make enough peace to allow Jade to come back to these forums, even to the pinnacle that Jade has reached these days, Kugu needs to be unbanned. There is no way CCP can defend the action as it was clearly a decision influenced by spite.
One should never spank children when angry, the results are always embarrassing. Own up, let him free. |
Fallorn
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 07:19:00 -
[102]
Set it right. Sig removed. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] with a link to your signature. - Elmo Pug
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GeneralNukeEm
Free Collective The OSS
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:05:00 -
[103]
I have no faith in the CSM or CCP to actually do this, but whatever. |
Xplained
Welsh Wizards
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:28:00 -
[104]
Whats this i hear of PL setting up a fake ebay account, setting up a daisho titan pilot and then gets his account banned moments before a fight?
Kug ****** up, PL ****** up, ban em all!
Byddin Rhyddid Cymru |
Kwint Sommer
Lothian Quay Industries
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 08:54:00 -
[105]
Originally by: eragon alseen We should thank him for what he did to make this game better.
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Worst Case
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 10:31:00 -
[106]
I always wanted a free kugutsumen, but never got one :( |
Rotten Ralph
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 10:33:00 -
[107]
endorsed |
John Grisworld
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 10:35:00 -
[108]
supporting aswell |
Euriti
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 10:36:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Xplained Whats this i hear of PL setting up a fake ebay account, setting up a daisho titan pilot and then gets his account banned moments before a fight?
Kug ****** up, PL ****** up, ban em all!
/E-DRAMA
**** **** GUYS, GET POPCORN. |
mr passie
Purgatorial Janitors Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 10:39:00 -
[110]
supporting this!
I'm a reversed paranoid schizophrenic. I have voices in my head I just think I don't hear them |
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Emo''''''''''''''''''Kid
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 10:46:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Emo''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''Kid on 11/06/2008 10:46:15
Originally by: Xplained Whats this i hear of PL setting up a fake ebay account, setting up a daisho titan pilot and then gets his account banned moments before a fight?
Kug ****** up, PL ****** up, ban em all!
pretty impressive. i wonder if that titan pilot coincidentally came up short on rent that month too
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Kugu Tsumen
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 11:09:00 -
[112]
Bring my bro back!! |
Hoody
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 11:11:00 -
[113]
Support this |
David Marteen
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 11:49:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Darpz he did the community a favor and was banned because it was "inconvient" to the devs.
QFT Free Kugutsumen! |
Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 12:04:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Tesseract d'Urberville
Originally by: Che Biko At this time I'd just like to know more about CCP's motivation.
As would I, but this is something where everyone's hands are tied. No matter how unjust it might or might not have seemed to us in any individual case, CCP has the legitimate authority to ban players. And, they can't comment on how the investigation, or the specifics of what happened, because of issues of privacy and confidentiality. We the rest of the players are not privy to all the facts, and it's not appropriate for us to be.
CSM can certainly ask CCP, more generally, how it conducts investigations and the steps it takes in deciding when to ban a player, but asking CCP to unban a player isn't CSM's job.
Sorry, no support.
------------------------ Lord, grant us the senility to forget the people we never liked anyway, the good fortune to run into the people we do, and the eyesight to know the difference.
well actually IIRC the original intention for the CSM was to be an independent oversight body to prevent issues like the T20 scandal from occuring again. It was not supposed to be some puppet council that debates irrelevant game balance issues.
|
XxAngelxX
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 13:05:00 -
[116]
Supportin Dis!
Free the man |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.06.11 13:27:00 -
[117]
I'm not going to support the specific case because I (and I'm guessing none of you) have specific information on precisely what went on between this player and ccp.
I would support a general motion that players should be able to appeal their own bans if new information or new circumstances come to light (or specific penalty time has passed) and Internal Affairs should have a responsibility to ensure those proceedings are fair and unbiased - if neccessary using a panel of arbiters unconnected with the initial banning to re-assess the status of the case.
The principle here is that we are playing a game and yes, sometimes people do bad things and deserve some kind of bans, but this is also a long term hobby and over the course of many years people grow and mature and their life circumstances change and I think its very rare that people fully warrant a permanent banning in actuality. Banning proceedings should give the benefit of doubt where possible, and only in the instance where there is clear and malign intent to harm the game and ruin the gameplay environment for others should a permanent lifetime banning be enforced.
So short version. Yes there should be some kind of appeal process where an independent panel of arbiters look at the case and are obligated to give the applicant a substantive reason why they are still banned (or revisit the judgement). This shouldn't however be public, and it must remain between the player and the independent panel. (And in the case of permanent bans I'd say there should be a minimum cooling off period of 3 months or so before this process should become valid in the first place.)
To the op though, you should be aware that tying a measure like this to a specific banned player is a recipe for the motion to go no-where. You really do need to address general principles rather than those entirely specific to a particular person.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 13:35:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I'm not going to support the specific case because I (and I'm guessing none of you) have specific information on precisely what went on between this player and ccp.
I would support a general motion that players should be able to appeal their own bans if new information or new circumstances come to light (or specific penalty time has passed) and Internal Affairs should have a responsibility to ensure those proceedings are fair and unbiased - if neccessary using a panel of arbiters unconnected with the initial banning to re-assess the status of the case.
The principle here is that we are playing a game and yes, sometimes people do bad things and deserve some kind of bans, but this is also a long term hobby and over the course of many years people grow and mature and their life circumstances change and I think its very rare that people fully warrant a permanent banning in actuality. Banning proceedings should give the benefit of doubt where possible, and only in the instance where there is clear and malign intent to harm the game and ruin the gameplay environment for others should a permanent lifetime banning be enforced.
So short version. Yes there should be some kind of appeal process where an independent panel of arbiters look at the case and are obligated to give the applicant a substantive reason why they are still banned (or revisit the judgement). This shouldn't however be public, and it must remain between the player and the independent panel. (And in the case of permanent bans I'd say there should be a minimum cooling off period of 3 months or so before this process should become valid in the first place.)
To the op though, you should be aware that tying a measure like this to a specific banned player is a recipe for the motion to go no-where. You really do need to address general principles rather than those entirely specific to a particular person.
Thank you for your well thought out response Jade. If it is required to create a more general [Issue] Thread about the establishment of an independent review board, I am more then willing to do so. The reason I made the OP so specific to one user is because his case is the most well known and most controversial. This has allowed me to drum up support from his friends and those who feel he was treated unfairly and allowed this thread to get noticed by different members of the CSM. Please try you hardest to make sure that the issues the CSM debates goes beyond just balance issues and looks at matters such as these because they are just as important to the future of eve as finding a role for assault frigs or anything else currently on the table.
|
Tesseract d'Urberville
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 13:40:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Torshin ...actually IIRC the original intention for the CSM was to be an independent oversight body to prevent issues like the T20 scandal from occuring again.
I knew I would find it:
Quote: I envision this council being made up of nine members selected by the players themselves, where you announce your candidacy, and if you win the election, they come here to Iceland, and they can look at every nook and cranny and get to see that we are here to run this company on a professional basis,ö said Mr. Petursson, CCPÆs chief executive. ôThey can see that we did not make this game to win it.ö
I sit corrected!
--------------------------------- Thomas Hardy is going to eat your brains. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 13:44:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Torshin
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I'm not going to support the specific case because I (and I'm guessing none of you) have specific information on precisely what went on between this player and ccp.
I would support a general motion that players should be able to appeal their own bans if new information or new circumstances come to light (or specific penalty time has passed) and Internal Affairs should have a responsibility to ensure those proceedings are fair and unbiased - if neccessary using a panel of arbiters unconnected with the initial banning to re-assess the status of the case.
The principle here is that we are playing a game and yes, sometimes people do bad things and deserve some kind of bans, but this is also a long term hobby and over the course of many years people grow and mature and their life circumstances change and I think its very rare that people fully warrant a permanent banning in actuality. Banning proceedings should give the benefit of doubt where possible, and only in the instance where there is clear and malign intent to harm the game and ruin the gameplay environment for others should a permanent lifetime banning be enforced.
So short version. Yes there should be some kind of appeal process where an independent panel of arbiters look at the case and are obligated to give the applicant a substantive reason why they are still banned (or revisit the judgement). This shouldn't however be public, and it must remain between the player and the independent panel. (And in the case of permanent bans I'd say there should be a minimum cooling off period of 3 months or so before this process should become valid in the first place.)
To the op though, you should be aware that tying a measure like this to a specific banned player is a recipe for the motion to go no-where. You really do need to address general principles rather than those entirely specific to a particular person.
Thank you for your well thought out response Jade. If it is required to create a more general [Issue] Thread about the establishment of an independent review board, I am more then willing to do so. The reason I made the OP so specific to one user is because his case is the most well known and most controversial. This has allowed me to drum up support from his friends and those who feel he was treated unfairly and allowed this thread to get noticed by different members of the CSM. Please try you hardest to make sure that the issues the CSM debates goes beyond just balance issues and looks at matters such as these because they are just as important to the future of eve as finding a role for assault frigs or anything else currently on the table.
Yep if you can work up the ISSUE as a general principle I'd be happy to support it and do the advocacy work on this one. Though its now too late to get this formally-raised at the Iceland agenda (7 day public debate rule and the fact we have have to submit the documentation tomorrow) it can be heard by the second formal session in August. We are hoping to have informal talks with IA at Iceland however, and I can touch upon the issue there in advance to see the general feeling - though they won't be obligated to give a substantive yes/no/explain reply publicly until we do it properly by formal ISSUE.
Anyways, please work up the general proposal and lets see where it goes. I do feel strongly on the issue of bans for obvious reasons. I think we should be giving the benefit of doubt more and recognizing that you have to something pretty damn terrible to earn a lifetime ban from an internet spaceship game. More nuanced punishments would definitely be a step forward - as in real life, the "death penalty" should be a sanction that people think pretty hard about.
CSM Manifesto 2008 | Destroy Outposts! |
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Narciss Sevar
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 13:50:00 -
[121]
Edited by: Narciss Sevar on 11/06/2008 13:51:36
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I'm not going to support the specific case because I (and I'm guessing none of you) have specific information on precisely what went on between this player and ccp.
This is very interesting. Can you please share this specific information? Personally i think you are full of **** yet again, because why would CCP share personal information of one customer with another? If this is the case then CCP have been breaking their terms of service and this is very worrying. If they are willing to share information about 1 player with another, where do they draw the line? |
lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 13:54:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Narciss Sevar
Originally by: Jade Constantine
I'm not going to support the specific case because I (and I'm guessing none of you) have specific information on precisely what went on between this player and ccp.
This is very interesting. Can you please share this specific information? Personally i think you are full of **** yet again, because why would CCP share personal information of one customer with another?.
He wrote this rather badly tbh but he is saying that he nor anybody else has the info, maybe you should take a few deep breaths and chill a bit from your witch hunt and while he is learning to write a bit clearer you can learn to read a bit better. |
Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 13:58:00 -
[123]
(edited for clarity)
Quote: I'm not going to support the specific case because neither I (and I'm guessing none of you) have specific information on precisely what went on between this player and ccp.
Originally by: Narciss Sevar This is very interesting. Can you please share this specific information? Personally i think you are full of **** yet again, because why would CCP share personal information of one customer with another? If this is the case then CCP have been breaking their terms of service and this is very worrying. If they are willing to share information about 1 player with another, where do they draw the line?
If you could stop flaming long enough to read the sense of what I wrote we might have some decent discussion here. If on the other hand you want to treat this like CAOD mk2 then I'd respectfully ask you to go back there and stop messing up this forum for other users.
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Pnuka
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 14:03:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Jade Constantine
(edited for clarity)
Quote: I'm not going to support the specific case because neither I (and I'm guessing none of you) have specific information on precisely what went on between this player and ccp.
Originally by: Narciss Sevar This is very interesting. Can you please share this specific information? Personally i think you are full of **** yet again, because why would CCP share personal information of one customer with another? If this is the case then CCP have been breaking their terms of service and this is very worrying. If they are willing to share information about 1 player with another, where do they draw the line?
If you could stop flaming long enough to read the sense of what I wrote we might have some decent discussion here. If on the other hand you want to treat this like CAOD mk2 then I'd respectfully ask you to go back there and stop messing up this forum for other users.
Your posting is horrible, proofread and keep it simple.
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Narciss Sevar
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 14:10:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Torshin
Torshin had he just said it was a typo in the first place, rather than try to make me out as some flamer and not mention going back to change his post to make it seem that way then we wouldn't be here. But admitting mistakes and making up for them doesn't seem to be something Jade can do. I apologise if my first post was a bit inflammatory, but that is because i found the way his post seemed to implie that ccp shared information with him very worrying.
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lecrotta
lecrotta Corp
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 14:10:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Torshin
Originally by: Jade Constantine
(edited for clarity) I'm not going to support the specific case because neither I (and I'm guessing none of you) have specific information on precisely what went on between this player and ccp.
it is quite clear that while yes his OP did seem to read like you posted that that was not his intention and was just a simple typo which when pointed out was quickly corrected. If you could keep your childish flaming and pathetic posts out of my thread that would be great.
While i do not agree with some of your posts torshin your honesty has just scored you a lot of points. The other drama bombers however need to **** off back to caod.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 14:15:00 -
[127]
Originally by: Torshin it is quite clear that while yes his OP did seem to read like you posted that that was not his intention and was just a simple typo which when pointed out was quickly corrected. If you could keep your childish flaming and pathetic posts out of my thread that would be great.
Only after it was edited. When someone makes a mistake which causes someone to ask a question. Usually the person who made the mistake says "sorry, i made a mistake and left out neither, i don't have any information". They do not say "you suck at reading stop trolling!"
The fault lays on the one who made the error, and Narciss made no error in reading what Jade wrote. Its not a big deal so long as the person who made the, what seems to be, completely honest mistake doesn't go ape**** when someone asks a legitimate question regarding what was actually posted.
Some guy in GF found a section on the forums where i typed "president" instead of "precedent". Did i change it to "precedent" and then call him a dirty liar? No, i said "whoops" then fixed my mistake. Then we went on our merry ways. Everyone was happy.
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 14:17:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Torshin it is quite clear that while yes his OP did seem to read like you posted that that was not his intention and was just a simple typo which when pointed out was quickly corrected. If you could keep your childish flaming and pathetic posts out of my thread that would be great.
Only after it was edited. When someone makes a mistake which causes someone to ask a question. Usually the person who made the mistake says "sorry, i made a mistake and left out neither, i don't have any information". They do not say "you suck at reading stop trolling!"
The fault lays on the one who made the error, and Narciss made no error in reading what Jade wrote. Its not a big deal so long as the person who made the, what seems to be, completely honest mistake doesn't go ape**** when someone asks a legitimate question regarding what was actually posted.
Some guy in GF found a section on the forums where i typed "president" instead of "precedent". Did i change it to "precedent" and then call him a dirty liar? No, i said "whoops" then fixed my mistake. Then we went on our merry ways. Everyone was happy.
While this may be true I think this current discussion is taking away from what has become a very good thread. The amount of support for this issue is right up there with the top issues in the assembly hall and I feel that we should get back on the matter at hand which is taking steps to put in a review process or appeals process for bans.
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GO MaZ
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 14:18:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Jade Constantine I'm not going to support the specific case because neither I (and I'm guessing none of you) have specific information on precisely what went on between this player and ccp.
Since the actions of Kugu can arguably be blamed for the formation of the CSM (maybe not directly but the idea of oversight and IA for example), I'd say this is one of those rare occasions where the specific case *should* be argued. Just remember that if he hadn't done what he did there may not have ever been a CSM or any sort of internal oversight such as the IA (at least publically) and issues such as dev corruption would have never been checked (and you wouldn't be getting trips to iceland )
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 14:24:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Torshin While this may be true I think this current discussion is taking away from what has become a very good thread. The amount of support for this issue is right up there with the top issues in the assembly hall and I feel that we should get back on the matter at hand which is taking steps to put in a review process or appeals process for bans.
Agreed.
Also, I agree with Go Maz. The fact that the CSM is more or less a direct result of Kugutsumens actions warrants that the issue be looked into and outweighs any concerns regarding whether or not we have the evidence to judge. With the CSM bringing it to the Agenda they will have to, at the very least, share the information with the CSM(as they must give reasons for any acceptance or refusal in writing) who will be able use their judgment regarding whether or not CCP acted a proper manner and whether or not the appropriate measures have been taken, or need to be. |
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sophisticatedlimabean
Terra Incognita.
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 14:32:00 -
[131]
I cannot and will not support a individual case as that is a bad way for things to proceed.
But i will and would support a motion that allows a separate or board to review cases of bans individually and perhaps over turn them if justification is found to do so.
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Miss Domination
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 14:35:00 -
[132]
The point remains, Kugutsumen did this game a great service by dragging so many things into the light. What matters is that corruption was exposed and he forced it to be dealt with by making a compelling case.
His reward? The banstick. This was a knee-jerk reaction by CCP and should be reversed. Whistleblowers should not be punished, they should be rewarded. Read up. The information is in plain sight for anyone who knows how to use the internet. The story of Kugutsumen's discoveries is one of the most interesting stories this game has to offer, and has generated untold publicity for this game, some good and some bad.
Free Kugutsumen, a true patriot of the community as a whole. |
Ecid Q'Wulf
Blue Labs
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 14:36:00 -
[133]
+ |
Miss Domination
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 14:52:00 -
[134]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean I cannot and will not support a individual case as that is a bad way for things to proceed.
But i will and would support a motion that allows a separate or board to review cases of bans individually and perhaps over turn them if justification is found to do so.
With all due respect, this is THE individual case. There are no other cases like this by any stretch of the imagination, and I believe much of the MMO world is still watching to see what the final verdict will be. Not understanding this demonstrates a lack of understanding in the issues or facts surrounding the Kugutsumen debacle.
We're not asking for the CSM to become a court of appeals for anyone, we're asking for this one very special case to be reviewed and hopefully the ban reversed due to the very high-profile nature of the issue, and the vast public support for Kugutsumen. |
sophisticatedlimabean
Terra Incognita.
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 14:57:00 -
[135]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 11/06/2008 14:57:37
Originally by: Miss Domination
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean I cannot and will not support a individual case as that is a bad way for things to proceed.
But i will and would support a motion that allows a separate or board to review cases of bans individually and perhaps over turn them if justification is found to do so.
With all due respect, this is THE individual case. There are no other cases like this by any stretch of the imagination, and I believe much of the MMO world is still watching to see what the final verdict will be. Not understanding this demonstrates a lack of understanding in the issues or facts surrounding the Kugutsumen debacle.
I do not care about this or any other individual case although in matter of fact i do know about the case as i was playing at the time.
My point is that it cannot be treated as a individual case and the whole banning/appeal structure must be looked at if that is what ppl wish or it is not a fair system as popularity or lack thereof is not a just reason to ban or unban somebody. |
Xplained
Welsh Wizards
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 15:27:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Miss Domination Free Kugutsumen, a true patriot of the community as a whole.
lolz
Byddin Rhyddid Cymru |
Euriti
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 18:46:00 -
[137]
BAEMP HIM! |
Nynaeve Ares
Animus Incarnate
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 19:08:00 -
[138]
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Carin K
Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 19:09:00 -
[139]
Noone knows exactly what happened with the Kugutsumen bannings, bot even some of his better friends in S******dly, but surely since it is such a hotly debated topic, if CCP had nothing to fear, they would expose the truth to clear their name.
This arguement needs redigging up and looking into and I believe the CSM is the only way we have the power to do this. If any CSM member wants to disagree with this then I invite you to reply to this post and argue against it. |
The MapMaker
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 19:26:00 -
[140]
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
I do not care about this or any other individual case although in matter of fact i do know about the case as i was playing at the time.
My point is that it cannot be treated as a individual case and the whole banning/appeal structure must be looked at if that is what ppl wish or it is not a fair system as popularity or lack thereof is not a just reason to ban or unban somebody.
The Kugutsumen banning was justified using some catch-all Terms of Service Agreement clause as the result of a dev decision to ban him for the trouble he was causing to CCP (at least one would assume this was the reason; CCP kept very quiet during the t2 scandal). It did not happen as part of any normal established banning procedure and therefore overturning this ban would not require the creation of any broader system of appeals for other bans.
You say it cannot be "treated as a individual case" but this was exactly what happened to ban him in the first place; his ban was extraordinary (in the literal sense) and his unbanning would be equally so. |
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sophisticatedlimabean
Terra Incognita.
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 19:46:00 -
[141]
Edited by: sophisticatedlimabean on 11/06/2008 19:50:56
Originally by: The MapMaker
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
I do not care about this or any other individual case although in matter of fact i do know about the case as i was playing at the time.
My point is that it cannot be treated as a individual case and the whole banning/appeal structure must be looked at if that is what ppl wish or it is not a fair system as popularity or lack thereof is not a just reason to ban or unban somebody.
The Kugutsumen banning was justified using some catch-all Terms of Service Agreement clause as the result of a dev decision to ban him for the trouble he was causing to CCP (at least one would assume this was the reason; CCP kept very quiet during the t2 scandal). It did not happen as part of any normal established banning procedure and therefore overturning this ban would not require the creation of any broader system of appeals for other bans.
You say it cannot be "treated as a individual case" but this was exactly what happened to ban him in the first place; his ban was extraordinary (in the literal sense) and his unbanning would be equally so.
Every ban can be portrayed as an individual case just like this one is, if a appeal system is to be implemented i will vote for it 100%. However i will not support the use of the CSM for each individual case as doing so will be decided on popularity not on the full facts. |
The MapMaker
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 19:55:00 -
[142]
If every unjust ban could be examined and overturned I would totally support it, however most of them happen completely out of the limelight in the privacy of email notifications. The Kugu case was completely in the open for all to see and is probably the only ban of its kind that has any reasonable chance of generating enough support to convince CCP to even blink at it.
An appeal system is incredibly unlikely; do a little bit of good instead of overstretching the CSM authority in search of justice or whatever.
CCP admitting a mistake, even in light of them creating the CSM council as a result of Kugu's actions, and actually going through with any unbanning I feel is very unlikely however, and this discussion is probably entirely academic. I hear "hope" is a pretty powerful political message these days though so we'll see. |
Talkuth Rel
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 21:00:00 -
[143]
Originally by: The MapMaker If every unjust ban could be examined and overturned I would totally support it, however most of them happen completely out of the limelight in the privacy of email notifications. The Kugu case was completely in the open for all to see and is probably the only ban of its kind that has any reasonable chance of generating enough support to convince CCP to even blink at it.
An appeal system is incredibly unlikely; do a little bit of good instead of overstretching the CSM authority in search of justice or whatever.
CCP admitting a mistake, even in light of them creating the CSM council as a result of Kugu's actions, and actually going through with any unbanning I feel is very unlikely however, and this discussion is probably entirely academic. I hear "hope" is a pretty powerful political message these days though so we'll see.
The first part of your post is exactly why one player's case can't be a CSM issue. Every banned player has a sob story or an excuse as to why they shouldn't have been banned (how many of these stories are legitimate is another matter). If you ask the CSM to champion the cause of this single case, you are asking them to give preferential treatment to a single person based on the popularity of his issue. This would move the CSM out of the role of a representative body for the playerbase as a whole and into the realm of giving individual favors to friends, associates, etc., which I think we can agree is a bad idea. Either that, or in order to be fair representatives, the CSM would have to take the time to personally review the case of each and every banned player, which would be a huge waste of time and entirely beyond the scope of what the CSM is supposed to be doing. They are not here to handle individual player complaints, that's what customer service is for.
If the CSM wants to work to get CCP to set up an impartial review process open to all former players, that would be entirely different. Even so, we would have to keep in mind that it is CCP's game, and they have the final say on who plays and who doesn't, regardless of what we may think is fair. If in the end you can't put up with their rules and decisions, then the best thing to do is take your money to someone else's game. |
Romale
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 21:43:00 -
[144]
Every player can come up with a sob story true, but they can't come up with a sob story that involves them doing absolutly nothing in game, being punished under a general EULA term for causing them headache that didnt' break any actual rules.
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Voculus
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 22:16:00 -
[145]
_________________________________________________________
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Talkuth Rel
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2008.06.11 23:39:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Romale Every player can come up with a sob story true, but they can't come up with a sob story that involves them doing absolutly nothing in game, being punished under a general EULA term for causing them headache that didnt' break any actual rules.
They can't? Why not? Do you know the circumstances of every single player ban that has been issued by CCP? I don't think so, and I don't think that the CSM have that knowledge either. My point is that singling out one special case sets a bad precedent and opens Pandora's Box, either requiring the CSM to perform a job which they were never intended nor equipped to perform, or paving the way to corruption by favors to the popular. Opening an issue like this could very well be the start of the downfall of the CSM as a useful and fair institution. Is that really what you want? I'm sorry if a player was treated unfairly, I'm sure he's not the only one, but you have to look at the bigger picture here. The fact is that this is not the way to go about solving the issue. Giving one player an unfair advantage over others simply because of the notoriety of his case does not correct past unfairness, it only creates a new disparity.
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Romale
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.12 00:01:00 -
[147]
if someone was banned for anything out of game, that wasn't illegal, that doesn't involve time codes, yes it should be reviewed, there is no pandora's box there |
Euriti
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 10:49:00 -
[148]
BAEMP
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Dianeces
The Illuminati.
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 12:20:00 -
[149]
Posting in a thread I support.
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fuze
InfoMorph Services Ltd
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 12:52:00 -
[150]
I guess the point is that at the time he was being banned CCP was pretty much going emo on his a**. And they basicly banned him for giving them a hard time. A good reason would have been because he posted RL information on the forums but so did Molle at the time. And he didn't get banned for that. (I won't link to the blog where the most of this is explained but it isn't hard to find.) I'm no fan of the man nor his play style but what CCP did was/is wrong IMHO. And I'd applaud the CSM if they try and sort this out with CCP. |
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Talkuth Rel
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 15:02:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Romale Edited by: Romale on 12/06/2008 00:11:54 Edited by: Romale on 12/06/2008 00:08:43 if someone was banned for anything out of game, that wasn't illegal, that doesn't involve time codes, yes it should be reviewed, there is no pandora's box there
edit: basicaly what im saying is you dont know its opening pandora's box, id ont know of anyone else ever who has been banned for something out of game that didn't invovle time codes, EVEN IF THERE IS more then him, we dont know that, you should error on the side of protecting the playerbase then error on the side of ccp is right because kugu proved already they arnt' always right edit2: the whole reason the council was created was to prevent abuse from ccp employee's on the game, to me that should include looking into kugu getting banned because from my point of view thats exactly what it is
I think you misunderstand the purpose of the council. The council is there to review game-related issues brought up by the players and determine which are worthy of CCP's attention. As has been pointed out by those on both sides of the argument, this is not a game-related issue, everything about it happened outside of the game, and it in no way affects the functioning of the game. This is a customer service issue. If Kugu has a problem with it, he needs to work through the channels of customer service. If people feel strongly enough about it to support him, they should write letters to CCP's customer service department stating that support. This should not be brought to a player council designed for reviewing game-related issues.
It most definetely is "opening Pandora's Box," as you are asking the CSM to consider the case of an individual player and grant preferential treatment based on the popularity of the individual's case. It is opening the door to potential corruption of the CSM through favoring individuals, it is setting a precedent of favoritism to the popular and well-known, and it is involving the CSM in issues beyond the scope of where they should be focusing their time.
As I said before, if the CSM wants to push CCP to develop a review process available to all banned players, that may still be stretching their jurisdiction, but I could find acceptable. The CSM should definetely not start looking at individual cases, it's not their place, and in the end it's not within their power to do anything about it. The CSM exists to suggest ideas to CCP about how to improve their game, not to tell them how to run their business. |
nomlasmit
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 15:53:00 -
[152]
I believe that a clearer banning process and implementation should be looked at along with appeals... |
Talkuth Rel
Republic Military School
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 16:26:00 -
[153]
Originally by: nomlasmit I believe that a clearer banning process and implementation should be looked at along with appeals...
I wouldn't disagree there, but that is not what you are supporting by giving this thread a thumbs up. |
Siona Windweaver
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 16:42:00 -
[154]
Supported. |
Kage Toshimado
Kage Clan
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 17:55:00 -
[155]
Unban the guy. He's a genuine EVE martyr as far as I am concerned. |
Hllaxiu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 18:02:00 -
[156]
This is actually what the CSM was created for. This incident should certainly be reviewed, as its the big things that was the cause for CSM to be started. The members of the CSM should look at CCP's actions here and see if they were reasonable. |
Faekurias
Black Legion Command Red Dawn Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 18:19:00 -
[157]
Supporting because I think the whole business was shady.
Supreme Legion Commander of the Black Legion Fleet We're recruiting. Hitmeup ingame. |
Romale
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.12 21:51:00 -
[158]
The whole purpose of the CSM is oversight, thats why the idea came up, i dunno what you think it is but it was created in response to dev's playing the game and cheating while they doing it, that oversight should include dealing with the emo reaction that was banning kugu plane a simple as its directly involved with the reason the CSM was created, and the only unresolved issue involving the incident still out there |
Euriti
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 07:17:00 -
[159]
Bump again.
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Hortoken Wolfbrother
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 12:11:00 -
[160]
Supported
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SunglassesInSpace
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 12:28:00 -
[161]
Free kugs |
Kitoba
Legion of Dynamic Discord
|
Posted - 2008.06.13 14:16:00 -
[162]
Aye force CCP to resolve this. |
alpha charlie
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 01:15:00 -
[163]
Supporting this.
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Ancorehraq sis
Imperial Shipment
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 03:43:00 -
[164]
Supporting for the lulz
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Zaran Darkstar
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 04:29:00 -
[165]
I support the unban of this guy. He helped in improvment of the QoS of this game in a sence. Truth was revealed. In real life the law punishes who reveals personal data UNLESS this serves the common good. I think in the case of Kugutsumen we have the perfect example of the above. |
VCBee 883
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 04:36:00 -
[166]
It's a request to review, not to unban; ++1
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Athar Mu
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.14 10:26:00 -
[167]
OK...what the hell? I hope that Kugutsumen is never allowed to play this game again. As for what I have read I get the impression that all he was doing is griefing players, whether they are GM's or not it doesn't matter.
I say F*** him and F*** this thread!
NOT SUPPORTED!
If you are so against CCP and this game don't play it and go else where, where the DEV's and GM's are angels and hand you the game on the plate.
Oh and the CSM does not have any right or should have the powers to get ban's lifted and if they ever do I will campaign for the CSM to be removed, because they are players with their own interests, they are not impartial!
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Athar Mu
Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 10:39:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar I support the unban of this guy. He helped in improvment of the QoS of this game in a sence. Truth was revealed. In real life the law punishes who reveals personal data UNLESS this serves the common good. I think in the case of Kugutsumen we have the perfect example of the above.
So outing GM's who do nothing wrong and spoiling the game for them because he wants to be unbanned is for the common good how? I agree that if someone is doing something wrong they should be brought to the attention of the law. However, the player base is not the law they are the rabble, the great unclean, the law is CCP.
Comparison to real life (because you did): You suspect that someone is a kiddie fiddler but don't have absolute proof, would you go to the police or would you go to the Sun Newspaper (any form of media outlet) with a picture of the bloke and say that he is a naughty man and that he should be strung up?
If the person is and you go to the police then he gets arrested and tried by the law, however if go to the newspaper first you could damage the the case and it could mean that he gets off because of a technicality. If the person isn't and you go to the police, the matter gets investigated and the charges dropped thats all good, however if you go to the newspaper with this then and you ruin this guys life because after investigation it turns out he has done nothing wrong. What have you done? You have ruined an innocent mans life (that sort of stuff never comes off) and also screwed yourself over because he can now sue you for damages.
Oh and serving the 'common good' can only be seen in hindsight. As what one person thinks is serving the 'common good' may not actually be serving the 'common good' but actually just serving their own good.
And finally its CCP's game and we pay to play it, there are no laws/rules to say that they have to let anyone play it because WE say so.
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Esmenet
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 11:01:00 -
[169]
The last thing eve needs is more emo tinfoilhattery. Not supported.
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Leora Nomen
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 12:42:00 -
[170]
Every time I got to some outside forum where players discuss MMO games in general if someone wants to **** on EVE they bring up the whole T20 scandal and say how T20 was never fired but CCP banned the player who discovered that he abused his GM powers and spawned BPOs for himself for no good reason. So there, they state, the game is rigged and there is no reason to start playing EVE.
So either un-ban the guy.
OR
Give a good reason for him being banned because I'm getting tired of trying to defend it when someone brings up T20 thing again.
guide to game time codes |
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Poison Punch
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 13:47:00 -
[171]
Edited by: Poison Punch on 14/06/2008 13:47:14
Originally by: sophisticatedlimabean
My point is that it cannot be treated as a individual case and the whole banning/appeal structure must be looked at if that is what ppl wish or it is not a fair system as popularity or lack thereof is not a just reason to ban or unban somebody.
This case is very different from other cases however, as Kugu did not break any in-game or EULA rules.
edit:spelling
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Elise Vectra
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 13:48:00 -
[172]
Supported, I've never been happy with this.
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Romale
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.14 14:57:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Athar Mu
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar I support the unban of this guy. He helped in improvment of the QoS of this game in a sence. Truth was revealed. In real life the law punishes who reveals personal data UNLESS this serves the common good. I think in the case of Kugutsumen we have the perfect example of the above.
So outing GM's who do nothing wrong and spoiling the game for them because he wants to be unbanned is for the common good how? I agree that if someone is doing something wrong they should be brought to the attention of the law. However, the player base is not the law they are the rabble, the great unclean, the law is CCP.
Comparison to real life (because you did): You suspect that someone is a kiddie fiddler but don't have absolute proof, would you go to the police or would you go to the Sun Newspaper (any form of media outlet) with a picture of the bloke and say that he is a naughty man and that he should be strung up?
If the person is and you go to the police then he gets arrested and tried by the law, however if go to the newspaper first you could damage the the case and it could mean that he gets off because of a technicality. If the person isn't and you go to the police, the matter gets investigated and the charges dropped thats all good, however if you go to the newspaper with this then and you ruin this guys life because after investigation it turns out he has done nothing wrong. What have you done? You have ruined an innocent mans life (that sort of stuff never comes off) and also screwed yourself over because he can now sue you for damages.
Oh and serving the 'common good' can only be seen in hindsight. As what one person thinks is serving the 'common good' may not actually be serving the 'common good' but actually just serving their own good.
And finally its CCP's game and we pay to play it, there are no laws/rules to say that they have to let anyone play it because WE say so.
hi thats not why he was banned, thnx have a nice day
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Zaran Darkstar
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 15:08:00 -
[174]
Edited by: Zaran Darkstar on 14/06/2008 15:12:42 Why was he banned then? _______________________________ Join the biggest Minmatar Corp! www.BrutorTribe.com
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Romale
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 15:18:00 -
[175]
im not going into detail because last folks i know who did could no longer post on the forums, that being said he cought a gm creating t2 bpo's and them being used in game, hense the whole coalition thing?, this was before invention mind you, he did uncover another gm's acount later after he was banned, i wont go into details on that either, if you want to read him goto kugu's websight you can find it in google all the stuff is there. at no point did he break any ccp rules doing it either, they banned him for a general eula section of basically costing ccp money
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Zaran Darkstar
Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 15:49:00 -
[176]
Can CCP point us to some thread where the official reason this guy was banned is explained? Not generic explanations like "He violated the EULA" but in specific what was the exact rule of EULA he violated? |
Romale
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 15:52:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Zaran Darkstar Can CCP point us to some thread where the official reason this guy was banned is explained? Not generic explanations like "He violated the EULA" but in specific what was the exact rule of EULA he violated?
hahaha thats funny man ^ ^, you wont find that on these forums, he posted a copy of the banning on the sight if i remember right
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
|
Posted - 2008.06.14 18:05:00 -
[178]
I believe the exact reasoning comes down to CCP banned Kug for creating additional work load for CCP employees. What this is referring to is the manner in which he revealed the T20 information and the threadnought and disabling of the forums that followed this information being public.
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Kyrjanen Janen
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Posted - 2008.06.14 20:00:00 -
[179]
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Br0wn 0ps
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Posted - 2008.06.15 04:12:00 -
[180]
I miss Enslaver, so for that, Kug should rot in banned hell.
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Romale
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.15 04:39:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Torshin I believe the exact reasoning comes down to CCP banned Kug for creating additional work load for CCP employees. What this is referring to is the manner in which he revealed the T20 information and the threadnought and disabling of the forums that followed this information being public.
it was the best of times, it was the worst of times
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Shade Millith
Knights Of the Black Sun Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2008.06.15 10:54:00 -
[182]
If he is the person who revealed the cheating going on between a CCP member and BoB then unban him
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Skyraker7
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.15 11:18:00 -
[183]
.. ----
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Skyraker7
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.15 11:26:00 -
[184]
oh and backdate his skillpoints.
----
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sakana
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2008.06.15 12:08:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Athar Mu OK...what the hell? I hope that Kugutsumen is never allowed to play this game again. As for what I have read I get the impression that all he was doing is griefing players, whether they are GM's or not it doesn't matter.
I say F*** him and F*** this thread!
Oh hi there, what a great attitude to bring to this discussion, suffer from aggression problems much?
Also your "impression" gathered from "what you have read" is so far off the truth it's painful to read. If you are not going to question or discuss the actions of CCP, why are you in the CSM forum section?
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The Economist
Logically Consistent
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Posted - 2008.06.15 13:47:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Torshin Edited by: Torshin on 09/06/2008 19:28:17 Several years ago Kugutsumen and all of his related accounts were banned for causing disturbances and general EULA violations. I believe that the CSM should bring forward the issue of setting a deadline for when Kugutsumen will be unbanned because it is his actions and revealing the corruption within CCP that lead to the formation of the CSM. I think that his ban should be lifted by the end of this councils term.
No.
Perma-ban.
CSM: This so called council got elected by 5.7% of the player base! (12678 votes)
Who the hell are they going to represent??? |
Raef Ruoy
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.15 21:25:00 -
[187]
Free him. -Raef
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Rando Dakari
Trans Galactic Trading Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.15 21:26:00 -
[188]
I agree free him
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ThatMiningMan
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Posted - 2008.06.15 21:27:00 -
[189]
I agree
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Saffrina
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Posted - 2008.06.15 21:28:00 -
[190]
Edited by: Saffrina on 15/06/2008 21:27:45 Unjustly done free.
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Sonva Lat
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Posted - 2008.06.15 23:20:00 -
[191]
I don't really understand why there is a call to unban him. His crusade didn't actually do any good, did it? I mean, he exposed a scandal and blackened Eve's name across the internet, and threw the community in to turmoil, but what did he actually acheive?
T20 had already been disciplined (not harshly enough), and the revelation did nothing other than force him to post an apology.
So, now we have calls to unban the one person who has probably done more harm to the community than any other, and who has done no good at all. Bad idea.
Once he was banned did he show remorse? No, he continued with increased vitrol, desperately trying to vindicate himself as the self proclaimed saivour of Eve.
Did the T20 revelation improve Eve, or did it just ruin the community? CCP had dealt with it months before it became public (and even if T20 should have been sacked, he wasn't, and nor would it be fair to discipline him twice for the same offence), and to be honest I wish it had all stayed behind closed doors, and that is what should happen with all instances of people breaking the rules. It is a private matter between CCP and the individual, player or employee, and it should remain that way.
No good comes from lynch mobs.
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John Whorfin
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Posted - 2008.06.16 00:28:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Sonva Lat I don't really understand why there is a call to unban him.
Becuase the ban was ridiculously unjust. Mulla said, "Hey, these guys are cheating!" And CCP said, "Whatever. Shutup. You're not allowed to play anymore." That's messed up, and it needs to be fixed.
Originally by: Sonva Lat His crusade didn't actually do any good, did it?
It did. It started a whole war that's been going on for two years now, where half the universe, the half that hates cheating, went to war against the other half, the cheating half, and those that suck up to them. It brought the corruption to light, and exposed the seedy underbelly of misconduct, causing CCP to make a lot of hollow promises about player oversight in the form of the player council. I'd call that some good.
Originally by: Sonva Lat I mean, he exposed a scandal and blackened Eve's name across the internet,
No. T20 started that, BoB continued it, and then CCP did it to themselves.
Originally by: Sonva Lat T20 had already been disciplined
No he hadn't. Nothing was done until the cheating was made public. T20's punishment came shortly thereafter, and the playerbase didn't start hearing about it until later, and when cries of harsher punishment came along, it was revealed that those with the real power of punishment at CCP had been on vacation, or whatever other excuse, and were not going to act against T20 again, since some form of punishment, whatever it was, had already been meted out in their absence.
Originally by: Sonva Lat So, now we have calls to unban the one person who has probably done more harm to the community than any other,
Kugutsumen did no harm to the community. The whistleblower is not the one responsible for the initial cheating, he's not the one responsible for others profiting from the cheating, and he's not the one responsible for banning himself, and putting a black mark on CCP's name by banning a player who did nothing wrong, and, instead, some things very, very right.
Originally by: Sonva Lat Once he was banned did he show remorse?
Remorse for what? For being the hero in this story?
Originally by: Sonva Lat to be honest I wish it had all stayed behind closed doors, and that is what should happen with all instances of people breaking the rules.
Said the BoB member.
Originally by: Sonva Lat It is a private matter between CCP and the individual, player or employee, and it should remain that way.
No. We have the player oversight commitee for things like this. They were initially supposed to be for all kinds of cool things, and not just for idiots whining about moon materials or nanoships. It was supposed to be for us, as a community, to raise issues exactly like this, and so we're god damned well going, whether you like it or not.
Originally by: Sonva Lat No good comes from lynch mobs.
No good comes from jack booted fascist thuggery, and people completely ignoring wrongdoing either. Stick your head in the sand all you want to. The rest of us actually give a **** about the game, and the environment it exists in. If we didn't, we would have all done the really right thing when this all came to light, and just stopped giving our money to an organization that reacts like this to whistleblowing, instead of making out feelings known by going to war, and *****ing on the forums.
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Seth Rock
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.16 02:50:00 -
[193]
Do the right thing ccp...unban him _________________________________________
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.16 05:07:00 -
[194]
im not positive but i don't think the T2 bpos were removed until this information was made public. Therefore to the question of wether he did any good the answer would be yes. and you can't blame him for blacking CCPs name. What blackened it were the actions of t20. Its like saying reporters are out of line to report scandals that happen because they are ruining the people invovled in the scandals lives.
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Goumindong
Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.16 06:15:00 -
[195]
The BPOs were not removed until after the issue had came to light.
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Tomic
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.16 12:14:00 -
[196]
Unban him.
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MaataHaari
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Posted - 2008.06.16 12:21:00 -
[197]
supporting
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Milan Sovilj
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.16 12:27:00 -
[198]
supporting
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Red Thunder
Most Wanted INC G00DFELLAS
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Posted - 2008.06.16 15:37:00 -
[199]
*high fives kugutsumen* Eagles may soar, but weasels dont get sucked into jet engines |
Dianeces
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.16 15:41:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Milan Sovilj supporting
It helps if you check the box. Just sayin'.
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steejans nix
0beron Construct
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Posted - 2008.06.16 16:45:00 -
[201]
Not around back then but definately support this.
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Marisal
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Posted - 2008.06.16 17:43:00 -
[202]
Despite been completely outside the scope of what the CSM is meant to be about, I fully support CCP on this one, CCP has the right to ban anyone at their discretion without needing to justify it, everyone agree's to that by choosing to continue to play the game, frankly if you have an issue with that you can vote with their wallets and stop playing... I think people will be less willing to get behind this kinda issue if they aren't willing to put their accounts on the line for it.
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Darius JOHNSON
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Posted - 2008.06.16 18:27:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Marisal Despite been completely outside the scope of what the CSM is meant to be about
Actually sir the issues that kugu brought to light are the reason that the CSM exists. You know, back when it was supposed to be an oversight committee and not a group of dudes pretending they know how to rewrite the game?
Originally by: Jade Constantine You might be a big man on the internets Darius but prepare to be laughed at quite a lot in Europe.
--
Illaria's CSM |
Achmetha
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Posted - 2008.06.16 18:30:00 -
[204]
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Eltyron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.16 18:42:00 -
[205]
I support the unbanning of Kugu.
(Did you expect something other than my support?)
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KeratinBoy
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.16 18:53:00 -
[206]
I support this. Free the Kugutsumen 1!
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Shiwan Khan
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.16 19:11:00 -
[207]
What Kugu did was expose the corruption in this game. He was wrongly banned. Fix it. ____________________________________________
AEKDB |
Tehel Necrona
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.17 03:52:00 -
[208]
Supporting this, I have a "friend" who watched one of these scandals go down in real time, and he was quite upset at the whole thing.
Then Kugu exposed it and some heads rolled.
P.S. LMAO @ Narciss owning Jade
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Falcun
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.17 04:16:00 -
[209]
Free him. |
Illuvian
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.06.17 04:33:00 -
[210]
Definitely in support of this.
Metus improbos compescit, non clementia. It is fear, not kindness that restrains the wicked. |
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Bokkie
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Posted - 2008.06.17 09:46:00 -
[211]
Supported
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Rouque Vanderbuilt
Nuts and Bolts
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Posted - 2008.06.17 12:31:00 -
[212]
/signed
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Molock Saronen
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Posted - 2008.06.17 12:41:00 -
[213]
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Rodanine
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.06.17 17:21:00 -
[214]
i find it rather interesting i thought ccp normally banned the people who exploit the game not those that find the exploits and report them to ccp to fix. at least thats the way i see it i mean come on a ccp person cheated he got caught by a player and then ban the person who caught him thats just pure BS. the ccp employee should have been fired on the spot for what he did and then be perma banned from the game not the other way around. yes this is an alt get over it |
Divus
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.17 20:45:00 -
[215]
-------------------------------------------------
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.18 06:55:00 -
[216]
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON
Originally by: lecrotta
Originally by: Darius JOHNSON If the case is that he did nothing to CCP then I cannot see a reason for them to have been banned. I've seen other MMO's ban people for items posted on guild websites and such and have always found it to be in bad form. I'll have to reserve judgement however until I understand the details. I cannot condone anything illegal.
Kug gets blown up by BoB members and gets smack talked. Kug uses "sources" to get information (illegally) from BoB forums Kug (illegally) finds out dev cheating helps BoB and is happy Kug exposes this Kug gets accounts banned Kug gets VERY ****ed off because he misses getting to play EVE Kug threatens CCP and gets no results Kug uses his "sources" to get info (illegally) on some other innocent GM's (not devs) Kug threatens again and is again ignored Kug gets more ****ed about his eve addiction not being satisfied Kug assumes that the enslaver stuff will get him "unbanned" Kug is even more ****ed now so he will use "sources" to out other GM's in alliances that are associated with BoB
This pretty much covers it.
If you don't want to get caught with mud on your hands don't play in the mud. I can't feel sorry for bad people getting caught doing bad things.
The GM had done nothing wrong, simply a know GM character can't stay in game. CCP rules.
So those GM had to retire established characters to satisfy Kug anger.
That for me is sufficient reason for a permaban: willfully damaging other players character with out of games methods, more so as he used informations hacked from the GM program from what I know, so from CCP.
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.27 14:35:00 -
[217]
Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
Quote: Originally Posted by Lead GM Grimmi Greetings,
Lead GM Grimmi here. I have been investigating the bans that were placed on your accounts recently. This is a complicated issue and I sincerely apologize for the delay in getting back to you on all this. Now, the accounts were banned, amongst other things, due to serious concerns regarding the alleged method used to collect the information you have posted on your forums. Hacking is a very serious matter and such issues cannot be taken lightly. However, our investigations have not turned up concrete proof of such criminal behavior and there is no reason for us to take action against you for that. Regarding the other TOS articles cited in the ban mail you got;
16. You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users.
18. You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriber's personal information within the EVE Online game world or website.
It can be said with some fairness that the posts you made have caused quite the uproar and created an atmosphere that makes all our lives that much more harder. CCP does not condone cheating, for sure, but dealing with matters such as this one is not made any easier with all the ruckus.
Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever.
Concerns about CCP employee misconduct should be sent to us for investigation. We did not receive any mails from you regarding the issues in question here.
In our view, you have clearly violated the above articles and we will therefore not be removing the bans on your accounts. They will remain permanently banned.
Regards,
Lead GM Grimmi EVE Online Customer Support
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Clavain Treesmighter
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.27 15:48:00 -
[218]
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Marisal
|
Posted - 2008.06.27 17:03:00 -
[219]
Edited by: Marisal on 27/06/2008 17:06:28 Edited by: Marisal on 27/06/2008 17:03:28
Originally by: Torshin Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
Quote: GM Correspondence...
PROVE he is the only one to receive a ban over posting personal info, if he's having issues over the contract he agreed to and then is accused to have broken he should be taking it up with a contract law lawyer, not some internal organisation of players that ultimately have their say limited by CCP.
If people had really had an issue with how CCP had behaved over this and many other issues they would have voted with their wallets long ago, its not exactly hidden from new players either so that argument that people have invested too much into eve to walk away over such an issue doesn't really hold as the growth of the game wouldn't continue if people really did object strongly.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.06.27 18:36:00 -
[220]
Originally by: Torshin Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
The only one we know was banned for it, as the bans are private. Posting what you have posted is against the EULA, like saying that player XX was banned for so and so.
For all we know there can be thousand of players (and probably there are some teen of them) banned to posting real life informations.
Kug was the only one making his ban know through outside forums from all I know. That is the difference.
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.27 19:08:00 -
[221]
Originally by: Marisal Edited by: Marisal on 27/06/2008 17:16:16 Edited by: Marisal on 27/06/2008 17:06:28 Edited by: Marisal on 27/06/2008 17:03:28
Originally by: Torshin Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
Quote: GM Correspondence...
PROVE he is the only one to receive a ban over posting personal info. If people had really had an issue with how CCP had behaved over this and many other issues they would have voted with their wallets long ago, its not exactly hidden from new players either so that argument that people have invested too much into eve to walk away over such an issue doesn't really hold as the growth of the game wouldn't continue if people really did object strongly.
just because people haven't quit eve doesn't mean that the wrongful banning of players should be ignored. Your argument is trying to say because people still play eve means that everything CCP does is right. Also you are wrong when you state that this isn't exactly hidden because almost all talk about Kugutsumen gets deleted pretty quickly and in order to find anything about it you would have to go back through years of dev blogs.
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.27 19:10:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Torshin Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
The only one we know was banned for it, as the bans are private. Posting what you have posted is against the EULA, like saying that player XX was banned for so and so.
For all we know there can be thousand of players (and probably there are some teen of them) banned to posting real life informations.
Kug was the only one making his ban know through outside forums from all I know. That is the difference.
prove me wrong then because like you said the details of a ban are hard to come by and kept private. It would require me to have access to the records of all bans to prove my point but much easier for you to prove yours so find me a case where another player posted real life information on the forums and got a permanent in game ban.
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2008.06.27 19:20:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Torshin
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Torshin Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
The only one we know was banned for it, as the bans are private. Posting what you have posted is against the EULA, like saying that player XX was banned for so and so.
For all we know there can be thousand of players (and probably there are some teen of them) banned to posting real life informations.
Kug was the only one making his ban know through outside forums from all I know. That is the difference.
prove me wrong then because like you said the details of a ban are hard to come by and kept private. It would require me to have access to the records of all bans to prove my point but much easier for you to prove yours so find me a case where another player posted real life information on the forums and got a permanent in game ban.
That's not how it works. I don't come up to you and say "There are a thousand unicorns hiding behind Jupiter, PROVE ME WRONG." If you assert something, the burden of truth is placed on you. You have to prove what you're saying is fact, everyone else doesn't have to prove otherwise. ---------------- Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.81 (Updated 4/8) |
Marisal
|
Posted - 2008.06.27 20:26:00 -
[224]
Edited by: Marisal on 27/06/2008 20:28:13
Originally by: Torshin
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Torshin Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
The only one we know was banned for it, as the bans are private. Posting what you have posted is against the EULA, like saying that player XX was banned for so and so.
For all we know there can be thousand of players (and probably there are some teen of them) banned to posting real life informations.
Kug was the only one making his ban know through outside forums from all I know. That is the difference.
prove me wrong then because like you said the details of a ban are hard to come by and kept private. It would require me to have access to the records of all bans to prove my point but much easier for you to prove yours so find me a case where another player posted real life information on the forums and got a permanent in game ban.
You made a categoric statement Originally by: Torshin Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
But offered no evidence to back it up, then claimed you couldn't and say that its much easier to counter your argument, because its more likely that there's evidence supporting the counter to your original argument... so in effect your saying that its far more likely that there is more than just one person that been banned for posting personal information. So in effect you've said your original statement is highly unlikely.
That kinda also brings doubts to everything else you've posted in this thread and seeing as you the OP, kinda makes me doubt the founding of this thread full stop if your willing to counter your own arguments.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.06.27 20:51:00 -
[225]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 27/06/2008 20:52:17
Originally by: Torshin
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Torshin Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
The only one we know was banned for it, as the bans are private. Posting what you have posted is against the EULA, like saying that player XX was banned for so and so.
For all we know there can be thousand of players (and probably there are some teen of them) banned to posting real life informations.
Kug was the only one making his ban know through outside forums from all I know. That is the difference.
prove me wrong then because like you said the details of a ban are hard to come by and kept private. It would require me to have access to the records of all bans to prove my point but much easier for you to prove yours so find me a case where another player posted real life information on the forums and got a permanent in game ban.
Quite hard of hearing?
It is prohibited by the EULA to discuss bans on forums so you will not find information about bans, especially perma bans in the forum.
Got it?
Most players will not discuss perma bans outside the EVE forums so you will not find information on who was banned and why.
Only those like your hero that will start whines saying "I was unjustly banned for revealing several people personal informations" will be found. And CCP will not comment in those outsider forums or in the CCP forum on that.
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Torshin
InQuest Ascension Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2008.06.27 22:10:00 -
[226]
Edited by: Torshin on 27/06/2008 22:12:37 the evidence that i can provide is other people posting real life information about others and not receiving bans because of it. Kug got banned for posting the real life information of other players on EVE-O. Other posters have posted real life information of others on eve-o and remain in game to this day. Now I was incorrect in stating that he is the only one to receive a ban for this because its impossible to prove. I can state that its extremely hypocritical to ban some for this action and not ban others as well. My point is kug is not the only person known to have posted real life information on EVE-O but he is the only person known to have banned for it therefore it is completely ridiculous to ban him for it.
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Marisal
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Posted - 2008.06.28 00:39:00 -
[227]
Originally by: Torshin
the evidence that i can provide is other people posting real life information about others and not receiving bans because of it.
Saying is not proof you have to actually show it. Originally by: Torshin Kug got banned for posting the real life information of other players on EVE-O. Other posters have posted real life information of others on eve-o and remain in game to this day. Now I was incorrect in stating that he is the only one to receive a ban for this because its impossible to prove.
If its impossible to prove its kinda of a mute argument then. But it semi proves the other point that others have been banned for posting real life info.
Originally by: Torshin I can state that its extremely hypocritical to ban some for this action and not ban others as well. My point is kug is not the only person known to have posted real life information on EVE-O but he is the only person known to have banned for it therefore it is completely ridiculous to ban him for it.
In your opinion it may be hypocritical to only ban some of those that post real life info, but im fairly sure ccp reserves the right to treat each case individually and look at the circumstances surrounding it. Just because he might have pseudo-celebrity because of the incidents that led to his ban doesn't give him any right to be exempt from the rules. Im fairly sure there are others that have been banned for posting real life info, should their ban be also lifted? change the rule for one you have to change the rule for all.
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aUTOKILL
Gallente Invicta.
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Posted - 2008.06.28 10:22:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Marisal Saying is not proof you have to actually show it.
if you do a tiny bit of research, you will find the proof he is talking about in its whole. ~~~~~~ doin it for the stats
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.06.28 17:29:00 -
[229]
Originally by: aUTOKILL
Originally by: Marisal Saying is not proof you have to actually show it.
if you do a tiny bit of research, you will find the proof he is talking about in its whole.
Torshin is the one affirming something, so he can work to prove it. |
Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.06.28 20:15:00 -
[230]
No support.
The CSM was not formed because of the banned individuals revelations. CCP did institute an internal investigation process largely because of incident Kug publicized, but this has little or nothing to do with the CSM.
At the end of the day, Kug took actions intended to harm CCP and CCP's player base. When he attempted to blackmail CCP, in clearly indicated he was intent on repeating his actions whenever he felt the need. CCP is well within their rights to protect their property and exact punitive damages by permanently banning the individual in question.
Kug knew the rules and the penalties for breaking them. He did it anyway. Regardless of whether you think he's a heroe or not, he did what he did the wrong way.
Windjammer
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John Whorfin
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Posted - 2008.06.28 21:26:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Windjammer The CSM was not formed because of the banned individuals revelations. CCP did institute an internal investigation process largely because of incident Kug publicized, but this has little or nothing to do with the CSM.
You are exactly, and remarkably, wrong.
Eve Online: So cut throat that even the officially organized alliance tournaments will screw over players |
Windjammer
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.06.29 01:36:00 -
[232]
Originally by: John Whorfin
Originally by: Windjammer The CSM was not formed because of the banned individuals revelations. CCP did institute an internal investigation process largely because of incident Kug publicized, but this has little or nothing to do with the CSM.
You are exactly, and remarkably, wrong.
Then allow me to clarify. While the CSM was originally conceived as a response it was eventually decided that CCP's Internal Affairs Department would handle such situations. The idea of what the CSM would be evolved into what it is today. An entity wholly seperated from dealing with avoidance, reporting or correction of any possible internal affair at CCP.
Thus when I say, "The CSM was not formed because of the banned individuals revelations.", it is entirely true and correct. The CSM which exists was not formed because of those revalations. And when I say, "CCP did institute an internal investigation process largely because of incident Kug publicized, but this has little or nothing to do with the CSM.", that too is self evidently true and correct.
Kugs revelations may have provided a catalyst to form a type of CSM, but they have nothing to do with the CSM which was actually formed.
Windjammer |
Heng
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.29 11:50:00 -
[233]
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Little Fistter
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Posted - 2008.06.29 15:01:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Rikkard Strofeldt This man did all of EVE a service, and got banned for his trouble.
Not because he broke the rules. Because he made CCP look stupid.
Free Kugutsumen!
Like most players, I will never know all the details, and frankly, it does look like Kugutsumen did us all a service by providing evidence.
But let's be clear: HE did not make CCP look stupid, he simply gathered facts. Now I have used Google to locate lots of Corp and Alliance out-of-game conversations, and reading a publicly-available web site forum is not exactly hacking.
If CCP looked stupid, it was not his fault.
I think CCP should no only unban him, but make him a special representative to the CSM, and empower him to act like the player's investigator (we need that!) but future allegations of DEV or GM misconduct.
Oh, and before someone thinks I am in any way affilliated with Pandemic Legion, I have seen some Sniggs in the game and was podded once by them, but I am not an alt in any way and normally not be sympathetic. But this makes CCP look like gangsters!
CCP: Hear the players, serve the players, not just take the players' money!
I vote UNBAN |
Tyr Vaantau
Amarr Synthetic Frontiers
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Posted - 2008.06.29 16:51:00 -
[235]
There are many reasons why Kugs should remain banned. Here's just one:
He broke the rules of the game. If CCP unbanned him, it could be seen that they therefore endorse his methods, which they obviously don't otherwise they wouldn't have banned him.
Plus, you don't seriously think Kugustumen has stopped operating within EVE just because his current account/s got banned at that time?
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Dianeces
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.29 17:22:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Tyr Vaantau
He broke the rules of the game. If CCP unbanned him, it could be seen that they therefore endorse his methods, which they obviously don't otherwise they wouldn't have banned him.
What rules?
Originally by: Tyr Vaantau
Plus, you don't seriously think Kugustumen has stopped operating within EVE just because his current account/s got banned at that time?
Considering he admits he doesn't play; yeah, I think that's a safe assumption to make.
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Kaplanelle
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.29 19:17:00 -
[237]
Originally by: Dianeces
Considering he admits he doesn't play; yeah, I think that's a safe assumption to make.
I wouldn't admit to playing again if I were him, even if I were.
Really though, the lengths that CCP took initially to bury the issue and telling people to FOAD if they didn't like it made them very much in the wrong. The could have removed the illegal BPOs at the time of discovery and it would have made it a much more moot point.
There should be a whistleblower provision given to Kug, as it has improved the game and made CCP get serious about game integrity.
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KeratinBoy
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.06.29 22:13:00 -
[238]
Marisal, that I can recollect, the original ban on Kugutsumen was stated as being for posting RL info on another player. Half the posters were up in arms because SirMolle had also posted Kugutsumen's RL info on these forums but was not banned.
Given this was at the T20 ground zero time, it was not a wise move by CCP. They then "clarified" that it was the EULA workload violation, a horrifically vague catch-all. SirMolle stills seems to be playing. I'd go looking around for the relevant links/threads but my internet is behaving like an asthmatic sloth at the moment.
Since this took me about ten minutes to do - stoopid intarweb - are you against the unbanning of Kugutsumen? Do you think he was fairly treated? Do you support the idea of a banning review in general but not for him?
(Apologies if you've already stated your position, trying to load pages right now on my connection would make baby Jesus cry)
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Marlona Sky
Caldari D00M. The Requiem
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Posted - 2008.06.29 23:33:00 -
[239]
So is this a "Vote YES if you are in Pandemic Legion/Goonswarm and Friends" and "Vote NO if you are BoB and Friends"??
I tried to do a bit of research but couldn't immediatly find out, what corp was Kugutsumen in?
The topic refers generally to banned players but seems like it is very specific to just this guy. |
DogSlime
Wilde Cards
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Posted - 2008.06.30 01:43:00 -
[240]
Having read about the disgusting T20 affair, I believe he should be allowed to return to the game.
All he really did was to expose just how vile CCP really are - in spite of the fact that Eve is a great game. |
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Marisal
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Posted - 2008.06.30 03:37:00 -
[241]
Edited by: Marisal on 30/06/2008 03:37:50 *sighs*
Simply put, it isn't going to happen fullstop.
If it even got past this stage of tossing varied arguments back and forth with bits of info that no one can officially verify CSM would probably have fun discussing it for a long time, then there's the possibility that CCP will turn around and say player punishment and revoking it is outside of the realm of the CSM's mandate.
If it ever went through the CSM and CCP would then have to deal with a whole host of banned players wanting specific accounts back pretty much swamping the CSM with hundreds of topics like this and the CSM will have to consider each one individually otherwise they'd look like they'd expressed favouritism destroying any respect the community has for them rendering their function useless as a representative of the community.
If people want to bring up the issue that other specific players should have also been banned but they weren't while kug was, then the issue they should be raising with the CSM is why haven't those players been banned. |
Clone 231B
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.06.30 03:48:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Torshin Since the question of the specifics about his ban have been asked throughout this thread, thought I would post this here. Also keep in mind that Kug is not the first nor the last to post personal information about a player on these forums and he is the only to receive an in game ban over it.
Quote: Originally Posted by Lead GM Grimmi Greetings,
Lead GM Grimmi here. I have been investigating the bans that were placed on your accounts recently. This is a complicated issue and I sincerely apologize for the delay in getting back to you on all this. Now, the accounts were banned, amongst other things, due to serious concerns regarding the alleged method used to collect the information you have posted on your forums. Hacking is a very serious matter and such issues cannot be taken lightly. However, our investigations have not turned up concrete proof of such criminal behavior and there is no reason for us to take action against you for that. Regarding the other TOS articles cited in the ban mail you got;
16. You may not engage in any activity that increases the difficulty and/or expense of CCP in maintaining the EVE Online client, server, web site or other services for the benefit and enjoyment of all its users.
18. You may not communicate, post or publicize any subscriber's personal information within the EVE Online game world or website.
It can be said with some fairness that the posts you made have caused quite the uproar and created an atmosphere that makes all our lives that much more harder. CCP does not condone cheating, for sure, but dealing with matters such as this one is not made any easier with all the ruckus.
Posting RL personal information about players is in no way acceptable, no matter what reasons may compel you to do so. This sort of thing can have consequences far beyond any effects you may be looking for and should not be done at all, ever.
Concerns about CCP employee misconduct should be sent to us for investigation. We did not receive any mails from you regarding the issues in question here.
In our view, you have clearly violated the above articles and we will therefore not be removing the bans on your accounts. They will remain permanently banned.
Regards,
Lead GM Grimmi EVE Online Customer Support
The funniest part about this whole thing is that SirMolle posted Kug's personal information on the forums aswell, but nothing happened to him.
Its real cut and dry, ban SirMolle or unban Kug. |
spanky herman
Gulfonodi Industries Shadow Donkeys
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Posted - 2008.06.30 04:48:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
The GM had done nothing wrong, simply a know GM character can't stay in game. CCP rules.
So those GM had to retire established characters to satisfy Kug anger.
That for me is sufficient reason for a permaban: willfully damaging other players character with out of games methods, more so as he used informations hacked from the GM program from what I know, so from CCP.
So they should ban any character that out GM's? If that is your policy there was an incident where a person outed a GM in public and no action was taken - should the rule also apply to that character?
As to the issue stated in the forum - CCP has a process and method to get bans investigated and lifted - just because you don't like the result doesn't mean the process is broken.
As long as the rules are applied equally I don't see a problem with them - when they are arbitrarily applied there is an issue.
It's been so long I don't remember what specifically the ban was for, I do remember reading that all official channels were exhausted at that time.
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General StarScream
Gallente Empyrean Gallente
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Posted - 2008.06.30 06:57:00 -
[244]
Free kugu |
Juliita
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Posted - 2008.06.30 11:41:00 -
[245]
I for one would NOT support the unbanning of Kugutsumen.
While initially he did a needed job, whistleblowing the misconduct of certain CCP employees, he followed that up by a series of essentially malicious attacks on innocent members of CCP staff.
Regardless of the circumstances this was unwarranted and CCP have a right and duty to protect the interests of their employees and the company from the player base. Had Kugutsumen managed to keep his behaviour in check and truely been a 'martyred innocent' this would be a very different situation. As it was Kugutsumen attempted to start a vendetta against CCP in general, far beyond what was required to whistleblow.
You could argue the rights and wrongs of boths sides - CCP's general mishandling, Kugu's 'illegal' actions, etc... but it basically comes down to Kugu's intention to harm CCP. CCP have no moral or legal obligation to unban him, regardless of whatever indirect positive concequences his actions may have had.
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Dianabolic
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.01 21:19:00 -
[246]
Without Kugs I would never have found out that t20 had cheated.
Without Kugs I would have never spent an entire xmas trying to placate members of my corp that had to spend their festive period trying to un**** what kugs did.
When given the choice I would much rather sacrifice the former so I could avoid the latter.
On top of which, CCP don't need to give reasons - it's their game, they can (and state they can in the eula) withold rights to play for whatever reason they choose. Reikoku Diplomatic Forums
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Zothike
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.01 21:37:00 -
[247]
i support the idea
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Waagaa Ktlehr
Amarr Evolution Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.01 22:11:00 -
[248]
Edited by: Waagaa Ktlehr on 01/07/2008 22:12:10 Misleading topic title: You only discuss one single ban, your topic title suggests this considers a generic approach to bannings.
Sadly, it's just an attention seeking post to dig up old drama.
The guy acted like an ass to CCP, they have every right to ban him over that.
Case closed, next.
PS. Kugutsumen posted on the first page, don't worry Torshin, he plays. -
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Flaming Lemming
Puppeteer Press
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Posted - 2008.07.06 00:21:00 -
[249]
Edited by: Flaming Lemming on 06/07/2008 00:23:14 I agree to a review of Kugs. ban (not necessarily an unbanning though)
This was such an incredibly hot-button topic, that some oversight seems very appropriate.
(BTW, are there Ninjas hiding in this forum?)
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.06 06:09:00 -
[250]
Originally by: spanky herman
Originally by: Venkul Mul
The GM had done nothing wrong, simply a know GM character can't stay in game. CCP rules.
So those GM had to retire established characters to satisfy Kug anger.
That for me is sufficient reason for a permaban: willfully damaging other players character with out of games methods, more so as he used informations hacked from the GM program from what I know, so from CCP.
So they should ban any character that out GM's? If that is your policy there was an incident where a person outed a GM in public and no action was taken - should the rule also apply to that character?
As to the issue stated in the forum - CCP has a process and method to get bans investigated and lifted - just because you don't like the result doesn't mean the process is broken.
As long as the rules are applied equally I don't see a problem with them - when they are arbitrarily applied there is an issue.
It's been so long I don't remember what specifically the ban was for, I do remember reading that all official channels were exhausted at that time.
Outing accidentally? no
Hunting for the names and outing several GM on purpose? yes
Kug statement was that he would make hell for hell (paraphrasing, but that was the sentiment) for all CCP employees/collaborators as revenge for his ban. I would never readmit him in the game after he promised and did that for a period.
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Kirgan
Pyrognome
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Posted - 2008.07.06 21:06:00 -
[251]
From what I read and remember, he recieved an unjust punishment and the whole issue should be re-examined.
Unfortunately if we must rely on the CSM to promote this, we are hosed as they seem rather inept thus far. At any rate I support this.
The best part of threads like these is how easy it becomes to spot CCP and Bob "unmarked" characters/alts.
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Ituralde
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.07 00:15:00 -
[252]
Kugu is a waste of carbon.
Banning him was a service to the rest of us, no matter what the real story behind the hacking gig really was.
_____________________________ Fear is the mind-killer.
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Deepspace Wanderer
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Posted - 2008.07.07 19:06:00 -
[253]
We cannot expect perfection, but we should strive for it in all ways, for there is no failure in the attempt, the only true failure is never having tried at all. |
Gokil
North Eastern Swat
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Posted - 2008.07.15 18:47:00 -
[254]
Free Kugutsumen
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Roy Batty68
Caldari Immortal Dead
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Posted - 2008.07.15 19:22:00 -
[255]
No thanks.
Dude may have uncovered some crap and (hopefully) bettered the game for it, but the way he went about it nearly nullified it. He tried to blackmail CCP with said info to get his own little private revenge.
Yeah... Saint Kug the hero.
Dude can roll another character just like all the others who've been banned for less.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.16 03:12:00 -
[256]
I move that kugu's ban be considered for removal only if he travels to Iceland to appeal it.
Ofcourse, he'd never go there.
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Kazuma Saruwatari
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Posted - 2008.07.16 04:27:00 -
[257]
The actions of this one player paved the way to the CSM. Consider that for a moment.
Also, consider that the problem still exists, and because of that, many ex-players will not return until their cries for justice and proper oversight are answered. -
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Constable Detritus
PURE Legion Pure.
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Posted - 2008.07.16 10:41:00 -
[258]
Free kugu. At least review the ban and then try to justify it. ¦¦¦ Eve what it lacks in frames per second it more than makes up for with drama per thread. |
fuze
InfoMorph Services Ltd
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Posted - 2008.07.16 12:07:00 -
[259]
Originally by: Marisal PROVE he is the only one to receive a ban over posting personal info.
He wasn't banned for that. He was banned for giving CCP a hard time. That information on how it went exactly is out there. Have a look see yourself.
I do agree that posting RL info about people should be banable. But that stuff popped up here several times and not everyone got banned about it and that is 100% wrong.The point is that even though Kug is a utter a hole he still deserves to be treated like any other player. Every player should be treated exactly the same or otherwise we simply can stop playing because it would be useless anyway. |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.07.16 13:40:00 -
[260]
From the looks, Kug peed into CCP's sunday shoes and got slapped into orbit for it.
CCP is perfectly within their right to terminate business relations with individuals they have a justified animosity against.
I think there are even legal terms for that, someone more proficient in lawspeak could tell.
No support from me, obviously. -------- Ideas for: Mining |
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sakana
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.16 14:37:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Ituralde Kugu is a waste of carbon.
Banning him was a service to the rest of us, no matter what the real story behind the hacking gig really was.
I think you should go to jail, no matter if you committed a crime or not.
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Loreliee
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Posted - 2008.07.16 16:30:00 -
[262]
All I will say is that CCP should not be banning people for messing around with other people's forums. That is not their job and trying to arbitrate disputes about which guild infiltrated/hacked/social engineered their way into which other guilds forum is outside their scope.
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The RedPlague
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.16 17:05:00 -
[263]
Originally by: Roy Batty68 Dude can roll another character just like all the others who've been banned for less.
Ginger Magician ... is that you
Cheers,
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El'Tar
Caldari Heretic Militia
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Posted - 2008.07.16 19:48:00 -
[264]
he undermineded the ccp peeps usin illegal ways, wjho cares if he maded ccp etc better, at end of the day he did summit ilegal ________________________________________________ MY BIG BROTHER BEING JESUS CHRIST IN HIS BATTLEWAGON OF DOOM
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ceyriot
Entropians on Vacation
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Posted - 2008.07.16 20:28:00 -
[265]
FREE HAT!
Wait...FREE KUG!
Faction Store - Killboard |
Dihania
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.17 08:57:00 -
[266]
Kug gets banned, yet CCP employee does not get fired. Bunch of preacks.
FREE KUG !
[hr]
Sniggwaffe is recruiting
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Al Kickaurazz
Amarr Ministry of War
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Posted - 2008.07.18 18:50:00 -
[267]
He was unjustly banned. He only hacked the forums to get proof to post on EVE forums for the players to see AFTER he tried telling CCP and they blew him off!
He exposed what is most likely the greatest scandal in eve so far
UNBAN KUGUTSUMEN!
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sesanti
Minmatar Universal Exports FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2008.07.18 19:48:00 -
[268]
I think you are all out place, the ASM forum is not the place to discuss banning, let alone request CCP bans or unbans any player at all. What's next? Ask to have the result of petitions reconsidered, right here?
_______________________________________________ The ShadowMaster -
<I am a guy... never mind the portrait> |
Logain Alseen
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Posted - 2008.07.29 01:49:00 -
[269]
something needs to happen
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Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.29 03:36:00 -
[270]
Ah what the hell.
/Signed.
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Turiel Demon
SHRIKE. Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:19:00 -
[271]
It's not just the greatest scandal in EVE he exposed, but quite probably in all western MMO's history. This may entitle him to some special consideration, though not an outright pardon, especially considering his further actions.
His banning was, as best as can be determined, carried out BEFORE his various untoward actions were. He could quite conceivably be reinstated as a token action, and then be re-banned for his later actions. As it stands, his banning is the very worst public element of the T20 debacle, I've lost more than one eve friend because they lost faith in CCP, and it delayed my return to the game by about 6 months.
Punishing whistleblowers is incredibly foolish, it causes immense damage to public and internal trust, and there are very good reasons the real world has laws protecting whistleblowers.
TBH CCP came very close to actual illegal activity, defrauding ('A deception deliberately practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain') the part of the player base not receiving dev-friend-help by suggesting that everyone was on an equal footing and that in game money or other recourses were required to acquire various items, thus gaining CCP money by making those player pay for their accounts longer to acquire the isk to get the items. This was not only hidden by CCP passively, but actively when people attempted to reveal it, and THOSE actions have gone without consequence.
I support a general appeal system for bans. I support the T20 incident receiving renewed attention, specifically from the CSM, with CCP revealing such information as was hidden/deleted from the forums at the time to them; if necessary in closed session. ----
nothing to see here, move along nicely now, is that a pink dread out there. aaww you just missed it -eris
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Gokil
North Eastern Swat
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Posted - 2008.08.15 15:15:00 -
[272]
Resolve this please. Free Kug!!!
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Tempest Inferno
Davy Jones Locker Einherjar Alliance
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Posted - 2008.08.17 16:04:00 -
[273]
1) I wouldnt be supprized if the account was not only banned but deleated as well by now.
2) He most likely has new accounts
3) CCP will probably never do this just as they never really do anything that players ask.
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Stevens
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.17 22:30:00 -
[274]
Originally by: Talkuth Rel I think you misunderstand the purpose of the council. The council is there to review game-related issues brought up by the players and determine which are worthy of CCP's attention. As has been pointed out by those on both sides of the argument, this is not a game-related issue, everything about it happened outside of the game, and it in no way affects the functioning of the game.
Originally by: Athar Mu Oh and the CSM does not have any right or should have the powers to get ban's lifted and if they ever do I will campaign for the CSM to be removed, because they are players with their own interests, they are not impartial!
Originally by: Marisal Despite been completely outside the scope of what the CSM is meant to be about, I fully support CCP on this one, CCP has the right to ban anyone at their discretion without needing to justify it
Originally by: sesanti I think you are all out place, the ASM forum is not the place to discuss bannings, let alone request CCP tp ban or unban any player at all.
You all clearly don't remember the original intention of the CSM.
Originally by: CCP CEO Hilmar I envision this council being made up of nine members selected by the players themselves, where you announce your candidacy, and if you win the election, they come here to Iceland, and they can look at every nook and cranny and get to see that we are here to run this company on a professional basis,ö said Mr. Petursson, CCPÆs chief executive. ôThey can see that we did not make this game to win it.ö
Link to the original for those who want it. As you can see he originally envisioned that the CSM would help deal with such issues as the t20 incident and the Kugutsumen issue.
Originally by: Athar Mu Comparison to real life (because you did): You suspect that someone is a kiddie fiddler but don't have absolute proof, would you go to the police or would you go to the Sun Newspaper (any form of media outlet) with a picture of the bloke and say that he is a naughty man and that he should be strung up?
Originally by: Roy Batty68 Dude may have uncovered some crap and (hopefully) bettered the game for it, but the way he went about it nearly nullified it. He tried to blackmail CCP with said info to get his own little private revenge.
He went to CCP with the problem first and they dismissed him immediately. Then he put it on his website publicly and CCP began looking into and asked him to take it down. He did and then all his accounts were banned, so he put the information back on his site.
Originally by: Goumindong The BPOs were not removed until after the issue had came to light.
The BPOs were not removed until t20 was forced to apologize in a dev blog. That was roughly 8 months after the issue was discovered.
Originally by: Tyr Vaantau There are many reasons why Kugs should remain banned. Here's just one:
He broke the rules of the game. If CCP unbanned him, it could be seen that they therefore endorse his methods, which they obviously don't otherwise they wouldn't have banned him.
What rules did he break? Do you have any specifics or is it all your opinion?
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Stevens
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.08.17 22:39:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Dianabolic Without Kugs I would never have found out that t20 had cheated.
Without Kugs I would have never spent an entire xmas trying to placate members of my corp that had to spend their festive period trying to un**** what kugs did.
When given the choice I would much rather sacrifice the former so I could avoid the latter.
So you are saying you would prefer the corruption to continue. (We will ignore the fact you're named in several issues) What if it had been Red Alliance that got the free BPOs?
Saying that because people got upset for him ruining something they got illegitimately (whether they knew or not) is a reason to get rid of him and keep corruption is insane. I mean what else do you want?
Originally by: Dianabolic On top of which, CCP don't need to give reasons - it's their game, they can (and state they can in the eula) withold rights to play for whatever reason they choose.
Yes, you are right they can prevent people from playing for whatever reason they want. Just because they can, doesn't make it a good reason though.
The only evidence we have is
Originally by: CCP Kieron We did not take action against anyone for 'exposing dev corruption' or bringing this to light. Due to our policy of not disclosing actions taken against a player with a third party, I cannot go into specifics. However, I can say that there were EULA and Terms of Service violations sufficient to justify our response.
Kugutsumen has stated that he himself does not know why he was banned. I don't have a link to the specific post but it was later revealed that he was banned for "Creating Undue Workload" which was a result of his whistle blowing clearly contradicting Kieron. They may also be trying to blame him for the threadnaught but one person did not do that.
In the end you have very little room to comment on this due to your direct connection to CCP so you should probably avoid making more of a fool of yourself. (Yes I will provide links if you trying calling me out on this.)
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