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Jove X
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Posted - 2008.06.11 23:21:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Jove X on 11/06/2008 23:26:45
 Originally by: Lowanaera
The "Trial of Succession" during which Jamyl Sarum avoided the Shathol'syn was an illegitimate and heretical proceeding that violated every tradition we hold dear.
You are in denial - and many others would disagree with you!
The death in Shathol'syn that Lady Jamyl Sarum avoided was no less legitmate than the one Khanid II avoided.
Originally by: Lowanaera
The fact that both did not fulfill Shathol'syn does not mean the circumstances or actions were equivalent or that both now have a legitimate claim.
Can't you not see that this isn't about legitamacy of one claim over another. The processess is the processs and God will choose the rightful heir as he always does. I am not against the exclusion of Lady Sarum for considaration.
I am against her inclusion if full honour is not restored to the House of Khanid on a point of justice!
Lady Sarum's return has potential to cause a rift, to restore our rightful place or maintain the status quo. If the Lady is shamed and dishonoured, the status quo is kept. If however, she is afforded the full honour of heir, though you may personally disagree, there will be many who see the parallel that will resent this double standard for the treatment of the heir of the House of Khanid.
If she is afforded honour as the heir of the House of Sarum, and the heir of the House of Khanid is restored to consideration for royal succession, than that rift which has been our shame for ages, will be healed. The Amarr empire and the Khanid kingdom will unite and both be the stronger.
This is not to say that Lady Sarum or the heir for the House of Khanid be guaranteed the throne! The process is still the process and an heir must ascend. However equal and fair treatment must be executed.
You know as well as I do that what's not being talked about here is whether or not the royal heir should have to end their life in Shathol'syn. You know as well as I do, this is a subject debated behind closed doors and in whispers. This is a subject, about which, everyone has an opinion.
The Khanid have always been more pragmatic, and more open - that we do not believe an heir should have to end their life for their to be peace in the Empire after a new Emperor is choosen. This fate of our royal heirs is not strictly necessary. For this, our honest but practical view, we have suffered.
With Lady Sarum's survival however, the rest of the Amarrian people are now also staring right into the heart of this very issue. There is no shame in her survival, but there is also no shame in the survival of Khanid II.
If others disagree, we cannot have our cake and eat it too. If Khanid II and his house, and its heir, is still disgraced, so should Lady Sarum and her house be.
Welcome to our fate House of Sarum! |
Xenea
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Posted - 2008.06.12 00:43:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Lowanaera
Unfortunately you are quite incorrect here. Khanid II abdicated from a proper Trial of Succession carried out in the traditional manner with all aspects of Divine Law met. The "Trial of Succession" during which Jamyl Sarum avoided the Shathol'syn was an illegitimate and heretical proceeding that violated every tradition we hold dear.
My dearest sister whom I profoundly respect, I must correct you. There is nothing traditional about the Shathol'syn. It is not a Divine Law. Rather, it is a tool of the Council to generate the weakest possible Emperor, thereby allowing the Council to execute a greater control over the Empire.
If traditions were upheld, His Majesty Khanid II would have been Emperor, the entire Federation enslaved, no slave revolt in the Matari regions, no bitter civil war, and no defeat by the Jovians. |
Drakonus Laerdon
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:02:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Xenea
Originally by: Lowanaera
Unfortunately you are quite incorrect here. Khanid II abdicated from a proper Trial of Succession carried out in the traditional manner with all aspects of Divine Law met. The "Trial of Succession" during which Jamyl Sarum avoided the Shathol'syn was an illegitimate and heretical proceeding that violated every tradition we hold dear.
My dearest sister whom I profoundly respect, I must correct you. There is nothing traditional about the Shathol'syn. It is not a Divine Law. Rather, it is a tool of the Council to generate the weakest possible Emperor, thereby allowing the Council to execute a greater control over the Empire.
If traditions were upheld, His Majesty Khanid II would have been Emperor, the entire Federation enslaved, no slave revolt in the Matari regions, no bitter civil war, and no defeat by the Jovians.
You seem to be the Amarrian version of Andreus Ixirus: Loud, obnoxious, insignificant, arrogant. I could use far more derogatory terms than these, but I will show some decorum here. You would be best to learn what that is, as well.
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Non Nobis, Domine, Non Nobis,
Sed nomini tuo da gloriam. |
Xenea
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:17:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Drakonus Laerdon
Originally by: Xenea
Originally by: Lowanaera
Unfortunately you are quite incorrect here. Khanid II abdicated from a proper Trial of Succession carried out in the traditional manner with all aspects of Divine Law met. The "Trial of Succession" during which Jamyl Sarum avoided the Shathol'syn was an illegitimate and heretical proceeding that violated every tradition we hold dear.
My dearest sister whom I profoundly respect, I must correct you. There is nothing traditional about the Shathol'syn. It is not a Divine Law. Rather, it is a tool of the Council to generate the weakest possible Emperor, thereby allowing the Council to execute a greater control over the Empire.
If traditions were upheld, His Majesty Khanid II would have been Emperor, the entire Federation enslaved, no slave revolt in the Matari regions, no bitter civil war, and no defeat by the Jovians.
You seem to be the Amarrian version of Andreus Ixirus: Loud, obnoxious, insignificant, arrogant. I could use far more derogatory terms than these, but I will show some decorum here. You would be best to learn what that is, as well.
No lecture about the virtues of the Theology Council.
No denial of the purpose of the Moral Reforms.
No defending of the absolute failures of Region-Loser and Slave-Friend.
Only concentrated personal attacks from so-called defenders of the Faith -- defenders of the Council is more apt. Perhaps my words strike too close to home. I wear the insults of a liberal as a badge of honor. |
Drakonus Laerdon
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.12 01:58:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Xenea
No lecture about the virtues of the Theology Council.
No denial of the purpose of the Moral Reforms.
No defending of the absolute failures of Region-Loser and Slave-Friend.
Only concentrated personal attacks from so-called defenders of the Faith -- defenders of the Council is more apt. Perhaps my words strike too close to home. I wear the insults of a liberal as a badge of honor.
My words were not meant as "insults", merely observations. I also do not wish to bore this Summit with the SAME debate that has been raging between Khanid and Empire loyalists over the past few years.
My words were merely to remind you of your place in this universe. I know mine, yet you seem to not yet know yours. If you were truly an Amarrian, you would know of what I speak.
All I see from you on these forums is arrogance, comparable to a certain Gallentean who constantly pokes his nose in others' business. |
Jove X
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Posted - 2008.06.12 02:05:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Drakonus Laerdon
I also do not wish to bore this Summit with the SAME debate that has been raging between Khanid and Empire loyalists over the past few years.
I have not been involved in this debate .. without enflaming it here can you tell me 'relatively objectively' what the two sides of the debate are? |
Xenea
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Posted - 2008.06.12 02:42:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Drakonus Laerdon
My words were merely to remind you of your place in this universe. I know mine, yet you seem to not yet know yours. If you were truly an Amarrian, you would know of what I speak.
All I see from you on these forums is arrogance, comparable to a certain Gallentean who constantly pokes his nose in others' business.
Oh, I do know my place in the universe. I am Khanid, a lesser child of Athra, and the greatest product of Amarrian Enlightenment. I look to the True Amarr for political and theological inspiriation -- such as His Majesty and the Grand Master.
It is out of my love for Lord God, His Chosen people, and His Empire that I am vocal. I do not enjoy pointing out the failures of Amarrians, but it must be done. The Scripture states very clearly the Amarr bloodline is exalted, It does not, however, confer an auroa of divinity and infalibility to each and every miscreant Amarrian with wayward, liberal views -- only the bloodline as a whole is Divine.
If that is the case, and I am wrong (which I am not), I will be sure to remind some of this fact when they find time to disagree with a certain Blooder of irreputable Amarrian linage. |
Ryem Sadar
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Posted - 2008.06.12 05:39:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Jove X
If you remember the last time an heir survived Shathol'syn, our house (Khanid) was forced to leave the empire in disgrace. Our house remains separate even until this day and excluded from consideration in succession.
The Khanid Family was not forced to do anything, Khanid II chose to to engage in treason and open rebellion, which whatever the circumstances surrounding her fate after the last Succession Trials, Jamyl Sarum manifestly has not.
Quote:
If the heir Khanid II merited disgrace for surviving Shathol'syn, the heir Lady Sarum merits no less. If Lady Sarum now merits honour, the heir of the house of Khanid, must have honour restored.
Jamyl Sarum returned and smashed a barbarian invasion fleet that had nearly reached the very heart of the Empire, as far as I have heard upon receiving word of the invasion Khanid II locked his doors and buried his head, hoping that the Minmatar would not turn their eyes on his petty kingdom.
IMPERIUM SINE FINE |
Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
Phoenix Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.12 06:26:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Eventy One on 12/06/2008 06:27:08
I did not realize, when I asked this question, that I was touching such a nerve.
I am sorry.
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Jove X
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Posted - 2008.06.12 06:28:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Jove X on 12/06/2008 06:35:42
Originally by: Ryem Sadar
Jamyl Sarum returned and smashed a barbarian invasion fleet that had nearly reached the very heart of the Empire, as far as I have heard upon receiving word of the invasion Khanid II locked his doors and buried his head, hoping that the Minmatar would not turn their eyes on his petty kingdom
Recall that Khanid II was victorous over Heideran, a victory ganted by God. Recall that the Jove too victoryous over Heideran, again a victory granted by God. Also remember that Minmatar rebelled successfully under his Heideran's rule, yet you question the theological soundness of Khanid II, in his refusal to honour tradition that deprived the kingdome of its most treasured advisors - the heirs of the royal houses?
Heideran failed at everything he attempted. Can you cite any example of where God did not turn his face against Heideran? Yet you say Khanid II was not forced to do anything?
The Khanid heir, Khanid II, was indeed forced to do something against his will; he was forced to kill himself, which he refused to do as the heir of a royal Amarr House, and as a vessel annointed by God. As a consquence, he was agressed by Heideran. It is true that he left on his own accord, however it would have been folly to stay. That is hardly a choice! You know as well as I, that the Emperor would have seen him dead.
Yet now you embrace the actions of Lady Sarum, of foregoing death because of what she was able to accomplish afterwards. You truely are, either a hypocrite, or dim, if you cannot conceed that Khanid II's accomplishments were no less benefital to the Empire, or noteworthy.
Khanid II, who has out lived, how many Emperors, has built a sound and envied kingdom, good relations with both Amarr and the Caldari, though the Amarr would have seen him dead. He his accomplishment are things that any Amarr should be proud of and an example of what type of Emperor he would have been.
If you forgive Lady Sarum for not killing herself for her later successes, you should reserve some of that same foregiveness for Khanid II whose successes are no less excellent.
If not, show us the abitrary rules you value, and those you discard so that we might better understand your hypocracy. |
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Lady Serpentine
Serpentine Procuration
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Posted - 2008.06.12 10:34:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Lady Serpentine on 12/06/2008 10:36:52
Jamyl Sarum has brazenly discarded Imperial Edict.
She has defied the word of the Emperor and the Divine Will.
To embrace her is to embrace treachery and deciet and failure of duty.
Her very existance is a crime against our race and should be decried as such. Those loyal to race and God should challenge Jamyl for her excuses. To sit and wait for answers is complacency.
I look upon the fascists and radicals amongst our numbers discarding their principles and flocking to Jamyl to legitimise their hate-mongering upon other races and I am not surprized.
I expect just that from such people who do not heed the spirit of the Pax Amar.
But I know that there are more intelligent and virtuos persons who read this. To them I speak:
Look at what happened.
An ferocious fleet appeared from nowhere, as if by magic, lead by mythical "elders" and terrorized 3 regions and sparked galactic anarchy.
A dead heir reappeared, as if by magic, and in mere minutes mobilized several Titan class vessels to fight the enemy off.
The enemy retreated and then vanished, as if by magic.
Something deeper is going on here. They would play us all for fools with smoke and mirrors.
Do not fall for this deciet.
Do not accept Jamyl Sarum for what she has "done".
Make her bare the shame for what she failed to do.
In the name of peace & respect,
Lady Serpentine |
Hardin
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Posted - 2008.06.12 15:19:00 -
[72]
I am still awaiting an explanation! |
Rodj Blake
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2008.06.12 16:00:00 -
[73]
PIE Inc will be releasing a statement regarding Jamyl Sarum at an appropriate time.
In the meantime, I humbly call upon the other Heirs to make their feelings on this matter public.
Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
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Eventy One
Magellan Exploration and Survey
Phoenix Rising Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.12 16:28:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Eventy One on 12/06/2008 16:29:03
Originally by: Rodj Blake
PIE Inc will be releasing a statement regarding Jamyl Sarum at an appropriate time.
In the meantime, I humbly call upon the other Heirs to make their feelings on this matter public.
Looking forward to it. |
Jove X
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Posted - 2008.06.12 16:32:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Rodj Blake
PIE Inc will be releasing a statement regarding Jamyl Sarum at an appropriate time.
In the meantime, I humbly call upon the other Heirs to make their feelings on this matter public.
Will PIE Inc also include in its statement comments that deal with the obvious parallel between what has happened to the heirs Jamyl Sarum and Khanid II? Will PIE Inc recognize that Lady Sarums re-appearance speaks directly to the history of the Khanid Kingdom? |
Silas Vitalia
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
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Posted - 2008.06.12 18:09:00 -
[76]
A response I made yesterday on a similar topic has merit here as well..
We have a rather long and vocal advocacy for this precise issue, which is often brought to the IGS every few months for re-discussion (and shouting).
This is unfortunately -not- the right time for such discussion, we should instead focus on supporting our allies in the Empire in their time of need. All loyal Khanid citizens would do well to assist the Empire at the present time. Succession can wait, and we must remember that there needs to be an empire left standing before anyone can succeed to the Imperial Throne. If we do not drive out and eradicate the tribes, there will be nothing left of the Empire to rule, for any heir.
We realize there are still many who doubt some Khanid supporters, but give it time, we will prove ourselves in your aid. Why even this very day I led a mixed group of Khanid and Imperials (including a PIE member) in the capture of a small contested complex in Minmatar space, and the destruction of two small starbases under construction. There was no squabbling over succession, merely the execution of our duties to avenge the unprovoked attacks on us.
In summation, we would best serve our King by demonstrating our willingness to assist the Empire in this time of need.
Hail Khanid! and long live the Empire!
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Arderich
Bruderschaft des Wahrhaftigen
A.R.K.
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Posted - 2008.06.12 20:45:00 -
[77]
Those people who defend the legitimation of Heideran/Doriam and at the same time are pro Jamyl Sarum will have a hard time to justiy their opinion. I have more respect for those who voice their opinion against Jamyl Sarum as a logical consequence of previous decisions, even if they are wrong, than for those who jump from bandwagon to bandwagon with rediculous arguments. For most people logic doesn't matter in this IGS madhouse, though.
Heideran was an incompetent fool. An Emperor who could not be chosen by God. History is the evidence. Defeated by Khanid II, the Jove and Minmatar rebels. Seeking for help from the Nefantar tribe. Elevate non amarrian to the status of a royal family. Accountable for the desastrous situation in the Bleak Lands. Author of the heretical book Pax Amarria... Doriam was nothing else but a continuation.
Once you see the genuine truth, once you realize Khanid II did the only right thing to do, you understand why Lady Sarum is free of obligations. There is no need to commit suicide for a false Emperor.
Currently I dare to say Lady Sarum would be a worthy successor of Khanid II once that time arrives and other issues will be sorted. Time will tell.
I am surprised noone seems to miss Chancellor Karsoth, the great man who started to put an end to the treacheous politics of Heideran/Doriam by bringing an end to the friendly Amarr-Gallente relationship and instead started to improve the relationship towards the Khanid Kingdom. This issue is by far more important from my point of view. |
Xenea
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Posted - 2008.06.12 23:52:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Arderich
Heideran was an incompetent fool. An Emperor who could not be chosen by God. History is the evidence. Defeated by Khanid II, the Jove and Minmatar rebels. Seeking for help from the Nefantar tribe. Elevate non amarrian to the status of a royal family. Accountable for the desastrous situation in the Bleak Lands. Author of the heretical book Pax Amarria... Doriam was nothing else but a continuation.
The wisdom of the Ages is not lost with bold, honest statements such as these. You are a true testament to Chosen People of Lord God, an inspiration for all Faithful to follow. With wisdom such as this, I have no doubt the Empire shall return to its rightful position without equals in the stars. |
Khan Rodak
Manu Dei
Vigilia Valeria
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Posted - 2008.06.13 00:06:00 -
[79]
Some will have a hard time ahead.
Words will have to be unspoken. Truths will have to be heard. Reason will have to be given and taken. And the sand will finally have to be removed from many people's eyes.
We rest assured. We wait. The revelations will come in time. We rest assured, our bandwagon is still the same as it always have been. Our anchor has worked well. The Scriptures have and will always, sooner or later, reveal the truth and shape our future.
Hail Amarr!!! We wait.
New Seminarium open
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Tar Kovsky
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.06.13 02:45:00 -
[80]
This is a religion that is able to justify -- no, revel -- in the deaths of millions and enslavement of billions of human beings. Surely they will be able to find a loophole or a recently-discovered scripture that will justify Ms. Sarum's ascendancy to the throne, provided that the right people find it expedient.
--
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Tomahawk Bliss
The Aegis Militia
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2008.06.13 04:13:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Tar Kovsky
This is a religion that is able to justify -- no, revel -- in the deaths of millions and enslavement of billions of human beings. Surely they will be able to find a loophole or a recently-discovered scripture that will justify Ms. Sarum's ascendancy to the throne, provided that the right people find it expedient.
I thought the suicide pact wasn't in the Scripture, that is was from other sources. Tradition and not the Word of God.
Clarifications? Lord ArchBishop? Lord Giaus Kador?
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