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Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
96
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Posted - 2012.03.10 18:33:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't particularly like ECM, in fact I hate it because no other EWAR is so utterly debilitating and frankly ****ing boring in terms of gameplay.
But I tolerate it because it took many years just to get Falcons nerfed and as much as I'd like to see ECM nerfed, I think it's wishful thinking.
HOWEVER, ECCM is pathetic. Even wasting TWO slots on it will rarely stop you from getting jammed. No other EWAR requires you to fit specialized equipment JUST to counter it, the fact that eve wearing TWO ECCM's is no guarantee that you will be jam-free is severely unbalanced in my opinion.
So I'm not asking that ECM be nerfed, but I AM asking that ECCM be given a SERIOUS BOOST! One ECCM should be more then enough to stop you from being jammed. It's bad enough we have to waste a whole slot JUST to counter this one EWAR, it's worse that it barely works at all.
That is all, thank you.
PS: For argument's sake, if I was going to suggest an ECM nerf I'd suggest that it only Jams SOME of your guns. Just like Web only takes away SOME of your speed, just like dampeners only take away SOME of your range, etc.
Highjacking every thread possible in the campaign to END THE CLICK FEST and RUBBISH NAVIGATION in EvE. |
Temba Ronin
141
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Posted - 2012.03.10 18:54:00 -
[2] - Quote
Let me see:
- Game Breaking (Check) - Ridiculously Overpowered (Check) - Equally Ridiculous suggestion to make it "balanced" (Check) - Utterly Pointless (Check)
All the hallmarks of a truly awful idea. Thank you for taking the time to suggest it.
Wait ...... wait .......that is what you said about my thread, lol i salute your expertly demonstrated mastery of the knowledge of truly awful ideas!
Power To The Players! |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
363
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Posted - 2012.03.10 18:55:00 -
[3] - Quote
I find ECCM modules to be pretty effective. I'm not sure what you are being jammed by that two ECCMs isn't an effective counter to it. |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
97
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Posted - 2012.03.10 18:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
Temba Ronin wrote:Let me see:
- Game Breaking (Check) - Ridiculously Overpowered (Check) - Equally Ridiculous suggestion to make it "balanced" (Check) - Utterly Pointless (Check)
All the hallmarks of a truly awful idea. Thank you for taking the time to suggest it.
Wait ...... wait .......that is what you said about my thread, lol i salute your expertly demonstrated mastery of the knowledge of truly awful ideas!
Power To The Players!
The difference is your idea is demonstrably bad and every agrees it sucks. I like your tears though, pity just saying my ideas are bad for no reason doesn't make your ideas suck any less. But that's life! Highjacking every thread possible in the campaign to END THE CLICK FEST and RUBBISH NAVIGATION in EvE. |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
97
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Posted - 2012.03.10 19:02:00 -
[5] - Quote
Vimsy Vortis wrote:I find ECCM modules to be pretty effective. I'm not sure what you are being jammed by that two ECCMs isn't an effective counter to it.
Two ECCM's is definitely a lot more effective, I accept that point. I think though that ECCM should be a lot more effective, and if nothing should be 100% effective against a single ECM MOD. Highjacking every thread possible in the campaign to END THE CLICK FEST and RUBBISH NAVIGATION in EvE. |
Danny Husk
EVE University Ivy League
17
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Posted - 2012.03.10 19:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
To be fair, there are mods that "counter" other EWAR, they're just not called "Counter TD" or "Sensor Un-Dampener."
Higher tracking guns, TEs, and TCs all counter the effect of TD; Signal amps and SEBOs counter SDs. Also, a single Tracking Computer does not negate a single Tracking Disruptor, even when scripted, and a single SEBO does not give you "immunity" to a single SD (though this all depends on how much tracking or range is "enough" for you to still hit what you're shooting at). Even TPs are "countered" by shipping and fitting for small sig radius to start out with.
ECCM does what it says on the tin; reduces the chance of being jammed. Maybe you think it doesn't do it quite enough (or maybe you think it does too much, if you're an EWAR pilot). But aside from the immunity role bonuses, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to provide any mod that gives absolute immunity to an effect that is already just a chance of success anyway.
Whether the ECM effect in itself lasts too long or is broken in other ways is another topic. |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
97
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Posted - 2012.03.10 19:32:00 -
[7] - Quote
Danny Husk wrote:To be fair, there are mods that "counter" other EWAR, they're just not called "Counter TD" or "Sensor Un-Dampener."
Higher tracking guns, TEs, and TCs all counter the effect of TD; Signal amps and SEBOs counter SDs. Also, a single Tracking Computer does not negate a single Tracking Disruptor, even when scripted, and a single SEBO does not give you "immunity" to a single SD (though this all depends on how much tracking or range is "enough" for you to still hit what you're shooting at). Even TPs are "countered" by shipping and fitting for small sig radius to start out with.
ECCM does what it says on the tin; reduces the chance of being jammed. Maybe you think it doesn't do it quite enough (or maybe you think it does too much, if you're an EWAR pilot). But aside from the immunity role bonuses, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to provide any mod that gives absolute immunity to an effect that is already just a chance of success anyway.
Whether the ECM effect in itself lasts too long or is broken in other ways is another topic.
Perhaps asking for it to be 100% effective is asking a little much. I also wholly accept that this is just one way to tackle the problem. I suppose the first step is a consensus that there is a problem. I think strengthening ECCM is one of the simpler and fairer ways of dealing with it.
You're right though, I could just as easily start a script where I start by saying why I think ECM is utterly borked. As I touched on in my Post Script.
One step at a time though, on the scale of things I don't think I'm asking for anything ridiculous. Highjacking every thread possible in the campaign to END THE CLICK FEST and RUBBISH NAVIGATION in EvE. |
Raposao1978
Ganksters Inc Drake Ashigaru
0
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Posted - 2012.03.10 19:41:00 -
[8] - Quote
So far no one else thinks this is a problem and you still want to seek consensus? You have already got that, there is no problem using the right ship with the right modules, bonuses, and skills does not already handle. Close this thread before you embarrass yourself even more. |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
111
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Posted - 2012.03.10 20:08:00 -
[9] - Quote
On an unrelated note (since ECM only takes away your lock SOME of the time OP), does anyone else think ECCM is a strange name - Electronic Counter Counter Measures - Desn't really have that much of a ring to it, does it? Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience. |
Leto Aramaus
Grimm Hounds
0
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Posted - 2012.03.10 20:18:00 -
[10] - Quote
Temba Ronin wrote:Let me see:
- Game Breaking (Check) - Ridiculously Overpowered (Check) - Equally Ridiculous suggestion to make it "balanced" (Check) - Utterly Pointless (Check)
All the hallmarks of a truly awful idea. Thank you for taking the time to suggest it.
Wait ...... wait .......that is what you said about my thread, lol i salute your expertly demonstrated mastery of the knowledge of truly awful ideas!
Power To The Players!
Complete and total idiot troll.
Please explain those points you are claiming to be truth.
How is it game breaking?
How is it ridiculously overpowered?
How is it utterly pointless?
You Sir, are a fool.
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Falrec
Epsilon Lyr Controlled Chaos
1
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Posted - 2012.03.10 21:55:00 -
[11] - Quote
Temba Ronin wrote: Very bad troll...
It's a good idea, ECCM is realy underpowered!
And Temba... Behave like the fact you can only make them less credible your idea ... Player owned stargate ... there is already the bridge jump for it, in null-sec. And besides, who wants a structure that can send it anywhere? |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
99
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Posted - 2012.03.10 23:22:00 -
[12] - Quote
Raposao1978 wrote:So far no one else thinks this is a problem and you still want to seek consensus? You have already got that, there is no problem using the right ship with the right modules, bonuses, and skills does not already handle. Close this thread before you embarrass yourself even more.
- Temba's ALT weighing in (Check)
Please stop pretending you know what you're talking about. Highjacking every thread possible in the campaign to END THE CLICK FEST and RUBBISH NAVIGATION in EvE. |
tankus2
HeartVenom Inc.
35
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Posted - 2012.03.11 00:33:00 -
[13] - Quote
Once again, I have to strike a middleground here. Yes, ECCM modules could stand a buff, though only 3-5 points (less for passive ones, obviously). Also giving ECCMs (especially active ones) a slight, oh so slight bonus to lock speed would also be nice (reasoning: better sensors should be able to see objects with more clarity and a bit more quickly than 'standard' ones).
However, remote ECCMs could be nerfed before anyone realizes that they have no stacking penalties and grant 100% bonus to the target ship's signal strength. This means a ship with 15 strength becomes 30 with one, 60 with two, and so on to the stratusphere Where the science gets done |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
99
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Posted - 2012.03.11 01:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
tankus2 wrote:Once again, I have to strike a middleground here. Yes, ECCM modules could stand a buff, though only 3-5 points (less for passive ones, obviously). Also giving ECCMs (especially active ones) a slight, oh so slight bonus to lock speed would also be nice (reasoning: better sensors should be able to see objects with more clarity and a bit more quickly than 'standard' ones).
However, remote ECCMs could be nerfed before anyone realizes that they have no stacking penalties and grant 100% bonus to the target ship's signal strength. This means a ship with 15 strength becomes 30 with one, 60 with two, and so on to the stratusphere
This seems pretty sensible to me. Highjacking every thread possible in the campaign to END THE CLICK FEST and RUBBISH NAVIGATION in EvE. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
32
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Posted - 2012.03.11 06:49:00 -
[15] - Quote
ECCM are perfectly balanced and function as a fairly good counter to ECM .. on battleships.
Once you try to make it work on ships with less slots and lower base sensor values than BS, ECCM becomes utter garbage.
We need alternate modules/rigs that add a static value to sensors rather than a percentage to give the smaller ships a way to counter ECM (one that doesn't involve running away/docking up that is).
Now, everyone stop bickering and go to the polls! |
Zindale
M S Not at WAR The BORG Alliance
7
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Posted - 2012.03.11 09:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
FIrst i am not here to rubbish your idea here
I find ECCM quite effective myself though i do have the relative skills to LVL5. Though i will we say that you need it to atleast lvl3 till you can see an effect.
Please also remember that you only see it from your side, you do not see the frustration on the face of the ECM pilot when he tries to jam a ship that has ECCM fitted.
What i will say is check your skill levels for use of ECCM and if you have a friend that is an ECM pilot then fleet up and test just how effective it can be.
Remember if they buff a module so that it is more effective when pilots have low skill levels then it will make it overpowered when the pilot trains to max level. |
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
70
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Posted - 2012.03.11 09:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
Danny Husk wrote:To be fair, there are mods that "counter" other EWAR, they're just not called "Counter TD" or "Sensor Un-Dampener."
Yeah but they are also useful modules on their own. When you fit sensor boosters you get extra effects other than anti dampening. And no titan pilot is worried about "OMG tracking disruptors!"
But ECCM does nothing outside of stopping jammers. So it's just this midslot that you have to use up just in case you get falconned. |
Marlona Sky
EntroPrelatial Vanguard EntroPraetorian Aegis
558
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Posted - 2012.03.11 11:10:00 -
[18] - Quote
I'm a fan of removing ECM completely from the game myself. Replace it with two new forms of EW that are on par with the other EW currently in the game.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
213
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Posted - 2012.03.11 11:24:00 -
[19] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:One ECCM should be more then enough to stop you from being jammed.
On a similar note, I would like a single Photon Scattering Field to make me stop taking EM damage, and an Invulnerability Field to make me invulnerable. |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
101
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Posted - 2012.03.11 11:48:00 -
[20] - Quote
Zindale wrote:FIrst i am not here to rubbish your idea here
I find ECCM quite effective myself though i do have the relative skills to LVL5. Though i will we say that you need it to atleast lvl3 till you can see an effect.
Please also remember that you only see it from your side, you do not see the frustration on the face of the ECM pilot when he tries to jam a ship that has ECCM fitted.
What i will say is check your skill levels for use of ECCM and if you have a friend that is an ECM pilot then fleet up and test just how effective it can be.
Remember if they buff a module so that it is more effective when pilots have low skill levels then it will make it overpowered when the pilot trains to max level.
I hear what you're saying, but trust me my ECCM skils are flawless and I still find them to be inadequate by a large degree. Highjacking every thread possible in the campaign to END THE CLICK FEST and RUBBISH NAVIGATION in EvE. |
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Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
103
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Posted - 2012.03.11 11:52:00 -
[21] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:One ECCM should be more then enough to stop you from being jammed.
On a similar note, I would like a single Photon Scattering Field to make me stop taking EM damage, and an Invulnerability Field to make me invulnerable.
I take it you don't like the fact that Warp stabs are 100% effective against a single scram or disruptor then, or that AB or MWD are 100% effective at increasing your speed? Or that sensor boosters are 100% effective at increasing your range?
Your comparison is idiotic. Time to-áCOMPLETELY REDESIGN THE U.I. FROM SCRATCH: - End the click fest & Multiple Window fest - Streamline and Simplify it-á - Improve scalability-á |
tankus2
HeartVenom Inc.
36
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Posted - 2012.03.12 03:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Gypsio III wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:One ECCM should be more then enough to stop you from being jammed.
On a similar note, I would like a single Photon Scattering Field to make me stop taking EM damage, and an Invulnerability Field to make me invulnerable.
Gypsio, I know you were being a smartarse, but you do point out what exactly ECCM is supposed to be. A module that does not prevent something (jamming, painting, webbing, etc) but makes it harder to do or be as effective.
With those Photon Scattering Fields, yes those Amarr drones are still going to hurt you, but not as much as before.
ECCM, likewise, is not there to allow a pilot to completely ignore Ewar, but make Ewar harder to wage against them. Some people forget this important point and that there must be BALANCE to everything. This is why using Invul fields is not an automatic 'I win' tanking button. This is why ECCM doesn't keep jammers from jamming you.
However, you can bet the enemy will have a sigh of relief when they finally find your weakest resist or when that jam cycle finally gets off. Where the science gets done |
killorbekilled TBE
Dare Bears
30
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Posted - 2012.03.12 06:44:00 -
[23] - Quote
Dear op
train thermodynamics and over heat said eccm module enjoy
killor 07 huh? |
Zombo Brian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3
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Posted - 2012.03.12 08:43:00 -
[24] - Quote
killorbekilled TBE wrote:Dear op
train thermodynamics and over heat said eccm module enjoy
killor 07
this
and ecm is not OP, its just that it is slightly more effective than sensor dampening
ever flew a ranged fleet with some EWAR frigs having sensor dampeners? you also cant counter that with a signle sebo per ship, and THAT isnt even chance based, but 100% sure you will **** up the lock range of an enemy to ridiculous amounts
ewar should not be nerfed in any way, just because gank fitted idiots think its unfair that they have more EHP and dmg and cant win because of it |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
214
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Posted - 2012.03.12 11:57:00 -
[25] - Quote
tankus2 wrote:Gypsio III wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:One ECCM should be more then enough to stop you from being jammed.
On a similar note, I would like a single Photon Scattering Field to make me stop taking EM damage, and an Invulnerability Field to make me invulnerable. Gypsio, I know you were being a smartarse, but you do point out what exactly ECCM is supposed to be. A module that does not prevent something (jamming, painting, webbing, etc) but makes it harder to do or be as effective.
You're right though. The point is that having a single ECCM make you immune to ECM is absurd as an EM hardener making you immune to EM damage.
However, that doesn't mean that ECCM is particularly well balanced - particularly on smaller ships. Additional ECCM mods that provided a flat sensor strength increase have often been proposed, and would be a good idea.
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Aldap
Club Bear
40
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Posted - 2012.04.12 07:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
bump My first PvP video: The Hunt |
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