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James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
83
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 04:45:00 -
[61] - Quote
EHP = shield HP / (1 - .01((exp resist % + kin resist % + em resist % + therm resist %) / 4 )) + armor HP / (1 - .01((exp resist % + kin resist % + em resist % + therm resist %) / 4 )) + hull HP / (1 - .01 * hull resist %)
.01 is because resist is in percentage from 0 to 100% and dividing by 4 is to average the resists. If you want EHP assuming only EM and therm damage you put only those into the formula and divide by 2 instead of 4.
If you were doing omni damage on a ship that has 50,000 EHP, you'd have to do 50,000 damage to kill it (neglecting shield recharge, shield boost, armor repair, and hull repair).
Structure resist is of course either 0% or anywhere from 45% to 60% across the board depending on if you're using a DCU and what kind. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window! |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
83
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 07:47:00 -
[62] - Quote
I have to say, as far as mining goes I definitely agree with the idea of making asteroid belts much more hostile environments specifically suited to mining barges/exhumers/industrial command ships. It's a creative solution, doesn't make mining barges and makes the game more interesting for both gankers and miners. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window! |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
166
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 13:35:00 -
[63] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I have to say, as far as mining goes I definitely agree with the idea of making asteroid belts much more hostile environments specifically suited to mining barges/exhumers/industrial command ships. It's a creative solution, doesn't make mining barges and makes the game more interesting for both gankers and miners.
That's what my point is. Asteroid belts should be considerably more hazardous than a parking lot outside a grocery store.
Their should be a persistent and chaotic cloud of dust and debris caused by the mining, and ships not designed to endure in these places should not do well at all. |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
110
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 13:46:00 -
[64] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Or you could just use common sense and always be aligned to a safe / station / what so ever.
As soon as someone starts to yellow box you, you hit the warp button and off you go.
MOre evidence that you fail at the game so badly you've never even heard of Passive targeting or sensor boosters. Also staying aligned means moving out of range of the roids. Time to-áCOMPLETELY REDESIGN THE U.I. FROM SCRATCH: - End the click fest & Multiple Window fest - Streamline and Simplify it-á - Improve scalability-á |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
85
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 13:50:00 -
[65] - Quote
I'd also suggest that the environment of the asteroid belt provide additional risk for miners as well, just risk that their ships are better suited to handling. Maybe there could be some implementation similar to the gas cloud for mercoxit mining. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window! |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
166
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 15:42:00 -
[66] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I'd also suggest that the environment of the asteroid belt provide additional risk for miners as well, just risk that their ships are better suited to handling. Maybe there could be some implementation similar to the gas cloud for mercoxit mining. One potential solution would be to have a two stage effect, depending on ease of coding into the game.
Interstellar bodies exerting gravity wells, mining itself, and the random collisions between the masses themselves, could likely cause currents and flows among the asteroids. The best analogy would be a perpetual avalanche with tidal effects and currents that larger and smaller asteroids were dragged around by. One could compare it to a river choked with ice moving at high speed.
Mining ships, specialized for this abuse, still take damage. But, they recover and regenerate their defenses so easily that a casual observer might believe they were immune.
Regular PvP ships, lacking this durability, can only remain a limited time before becoming a part of the landscape.
Stage 1, caused by persistent bumping by the asteroids, would be that ships are drawn into the current itself.
Stage 2, behaving at the same time as stage 1, would be the abrasive nature of this avalanche / blender effect. Ships take damage based on a percentage modified by their signature. Their is no resistance category for this damage, unless mining ships gain effective immunity to this damage type. |
Zombo Brian
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.13 17:34:00 -
[67] - Quote
I dont really see the problem here, ganking was always in eve and will ever be, just like can flipping and ninja salvaging I personally dont want a second WoW where high sec means 100% secure and fighting cant occure
this is not how eve works, worked, or ever should work, eve is a pvp game in every part and shouldn't be nerfed to no-pvp zones and pvp zones
learn to live with the risk of getting killed everywhere and the most important of everything:
>>>Dont fly what you can't afford to lose<<< |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
1276
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 13:10:00 -
[68] - Quote
Zombo Brian wrote:I dont really see the problem here, ganking was always in eve and will ever be, just like can flipping and ninja salvaging I personally dont want a second WoW where high sec means 100% secure and fighting cant occure
this is not how eve works, worked, or ever should work, eve is a pvp game in every part and shouldn't be nerfed to no-pvp zones and pvp zones
learn to live with the risk of getting killed everywhere and the most important of everything:
>>>Dont fly what you can't afford to lose<<<
CCP gave you wardecs for hisec pvp. Use them or go sniff out low sec/0.0/wh miners.
He's not suggesting they end hisec pvp, hes suggesting you buff multi-million isk roidmunchers EHP to the point where hisec ganking in a destroyer can no longer occur for next to free with no risk.
Its high Security space... should imply high risk for your killmail like carebear 0.0 risk = reward. |
J'Poll
Pioneer's of the Galantic Wars Side Effect.
149
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 13:14:00 -
[69] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Zombo Brian wrote:I dont really see the problem here, ganking was always in eve and will ever be, just like can flipping and ninja salvaging I personally dont want a second WoW where high sec means 100% secure and fighting cant occure
this is not how eve works, worked, or ever should work, eve is a pvp game in every part and shouldn't be nerfed to no-pvp zones and pvp zones
learn to live with the risk of getting killed everywhere and the most important of everything:
>>>Dont fly what you can't afford to lose<<< CCP gave you wardecs for hisec pvp. Use them or go sniff out low sec/0.0/wh miners. He's not suggesting they end hisec pvp, hes suggesting you buff multi-million isk roidmunchers EHP to the point where hisec ganking in a destroyer can no longer occur for next to free with no risk. Its high Security space... should imply high risk for your killmail like carebear 0.0 risk = reward.
So all he asks for is that he can carebear without risk in EVE. That is not EVE, deal with the possibility of being ganked or leave. Inject your skillbook before you leave the station. Neo didnGÇÖt learn Kung-Fu by having it sit in his usb drive.-á If it moves, shoot it. If it doesn't move, poke it with your gun and then shoot it. We are not running, we are advancing in the opposite direction |
Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
53
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 13:42:00 -
[70] - Quote
Asuka Solo wrote:Zombo Brian wrote: learn to live with the risk of getting killed everywhere and the most important of everything:
>>>Dont fly what you can't afford to lose<<<
CCP gave you wardecs for hisec pvp. Use them or go sniff out low sec/0.0/wh miners. He's not suggesting they end hisec pvp, hes suggesting you buff multi-million isk roidmunchers EHP to the point where hisec ganking in a destroyer can no longer occur for next to free with no risk. Its high Security space... should imply high risk for your killmail like carebear 0.0 risk = reward. One interceptor, 5 medium drones for every miner on site.
Why wait for CONCORD once you have permission to shoot?
Or, if you *must* run solo, run tanked. 20KEHP isn't that hard to achieve and it takes a lot of destroyers to chew through that before CONCORD comes knocking.
You need more skills than the hull skills to fly *any* ship effectively, why should the Hulk be an exception? |
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Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
113
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 14:09:00 -
[71] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Asuka Solo wrote:Zombo Brian wrote: learn to live with the risk of getting killed everywhere and the most important of everything:
>>>Dont fly what you can't afford to lose<<<
CCP gave you wardecs for hisec pvp. Use them or go sniff out low sec/0.0/wh miners. He's not suggesting they end hisec pvp, hes suggesting you buff multi-million isk roidmunchers EHP to the point where hisec ganking in a destroyer can no longer occur for next to free with no risk. Its high Security space... should imply high risk for your killmail like carebear 0.0 risk = reward. One interceptor, 5 medium drones for every miner on site. Why wait for CONCORD once you have permission to shoot? Or, if you *must* run solo, run tanked. 20KEHP isn't that hard to achieve and it takes a lot of destroyers to chew through that before CONCORD comes knocking. You need more skills than the hull skills to fly *any* ship effectively, why should the Hulk be an exception?
I find it usually takes 4-5. Something most people probablhy don't realise is that I've been on both sides of suicide ganking. Thrashers were almost always our weapon of choice. 5 medium drones as defence will not be enough to save a hulk, not by a long way. As has already been pointed out on this thread, 20K EHP doesn't equate to 20K actualy hit points. EHP is just an average that's been worked out, it doesn't apply to reality.
Oh, and for all of those saying Industria' ships aren't supposed to ever be well armoured, almost as if this is a given fact. I'd say to them, look at real life examples like The Royal Engineers. They are a heavily armored engineer division specifically there to undertake large scale engineering projects in war zones. So to suggest that a well armored mining ship is unrealistic, is just nonsense. Time to-áCOMPLETELY REDESIGN THE U.I. FROM SCRATCH: - End the click fest & Multiple Window fest - Streamline and Simplify it-á - Improve scalability-á |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
168
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 14:14:00 -
[72] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:You need more skills than the hull skills to fly *any* ship effectively, why should the Hulk be an exception? If you track down a hulk away from the roid field, that's one thing. Best analogy: A fish out of water, very easy target.
But, if you catch the hulk inside the roid field, the hulk's lack of direct offensive capabilities becomes academic. The hulk can endure the long term effects of sustained impacts and crushing forces present. PvP ships, while highly effective in clean space, encounter devastating effects from the celestial avalanche / death blender.
The PvP ship should probably have just enough time to align out and warp, before being pancaked by a roid the size of a titan...
Asteroid belts being treated as calm places diminishes the barges and exhumers as having any real value. They ought to be dangerous, and unpredictable. Anything but safe, especially for ships not specifically designed to operate there. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
786
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 14:26:00 -
[73] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:So to suggest that a well armored mining ship is unrealistic, is just nonsense.
But ORE barges are shield tanks
Thing is while the Royal Engineers (or the Army Corps of Engineers for that matter) are set up and equipped to be doing engineering projects in warzones, their equipment is possibly "sub-par" to the civilian equivalent designed to to the same task.
Mining Barges are effectively "civilian" grade excavators -- able to move huge amounts of dirt/rock/whatever ... but effectively "paper thin". Same as RL excavators, you can get *some* armour (well, shields ... they are shield tanks after all) on them ... at the expense of what they can move. However, the armour that's added on to these things will never be as resilient as a vehicle that is designed from the beginning to be heavily armoured (battleship, tank, etc).
They absolutely need to be used in "safe"(ish) areas. However, with the current mechanics in EVE, there is no "good" way to make a hisec belt "safe" enough to make mining anything more than a game of chance. No matter what happens to barge/exhumer HP, this won't change -- there needs to be a way to strike at hostile persons first, without simply getting concorded. |
Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
53
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 14:54:00 -
[74] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:I find it usually takes 4-5. Something most people probablhy don't realise is that I've been on both sides of suicide ganking. Thrashers were almost always our weapon of choice. 5 medium drones as defence will not be enough to save a hulk, not by a long way. As has already been pointed out on this thread, 20K EHP doesn't equate to 20K actualy hit points. EHP is just an average that's been worked out, it doesn't apply to reality. Oh, and for all of those saying Industria' ships aren't supposed to ever be well armoured, almost as if this is a given fact. I'd say to them, look at real life examples like The Royal Engineers. They are a heavily armored engineer division specifically there to undertake large scale engineering projects in war zones. So to suggest that a well armored mining ship is unrealistic, is just nonsense. The Royal Engineers don't send one guy in a bulldozer alone to build a bridge.
5 medium drones sure won't save a lone, poorly tanked hulk, but 30 medium drones on a hair trigger would have a chance and that's just one squadron's worth.
Use fleets. Use enough tank to keep you up while CONCORD does it's job.
If you have to fly alone, so you don't even have fleet bonuses to help keep you up, give up on max throughput/cargo cap. Put a real tank on it.
When was the last time any of you saw a Hulk with shield rigs fit?
The tools are there. Use them. |
Danny John-Peter
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
73
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 17:12:00 -
[75] - Quote
Nobody seems to have pointed this out but the Hulk fits listed before, had a shield tank of around 26k EHP.
Doesnt seem that much does it.
Then you consider something like a Rapier, a dedicated combat vessel has between 24k and 30k EHP.
Oh look a hulk has a better tank than my Rapier, onoes its a dedicated combat ship, this is unfair, nerf Hulks.
It also has a lower sig, nerf huuuuuuuuuulks.
Trolling aside 30k EHP isnt that bad really, so just tank you hulks and youll be fine.
For ref;
[Hulk, Hulk] Damage Control II Expanded Cargohold II
Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Photon Scattering Field II Small Shield Extender II
Strip Miner I Strip Miner I Strip Miner I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
26k EHP
[Rapier, Solo ] Tracking Enhancer II Gyrostabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Damage Control II
Stasis Webifier II Federation Navy Stasis Webifier Dark Blood Warp Disruptor Experimental 10MN MicroWarpdrive I Invulnerability Field II Large Shield Extender II
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M 650mm Artillery Cannon II, Republic Fleet EMP M Covert Ops Cloaking Device II
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Warrior II x4 Valkyrie II x2
24k EHP |
Velicitia
Open Designs
790
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 17:34:00 -
[76] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:good points
Miner Response --> but the yield is so much lower than if ... (stuff)
That's the crux of the problem -- you can't fit for max yield without having a **** tank, but you can't fit a good tank without compromising yield ...
... to the miners --> guess what, combat pilots have the same dilemma, except for the fact that "yield" is replaced with "DPS". |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
113
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 21:04:00 -
[77] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:[quote=Miss Whippy]
The Royal Engineers don't send one guy in a bulldozer alone to build a bridge.
The Navy doesn't have just one guy manning a battle ship either. Let's not waste time with lame reasoning. Time to-áCOMPLETELY REDESIGN THE U.I. FROM SCRATCH: - End the click fest & Multiple Window fest - Streamline and Simplify it-á - Improve scalability-á |
Leto Aramaus
Grimm Hounds
13
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 21:07:00 -
[78] - Quote
Yea Whippy, I'm sorry but I'ved tried to gank Hulks with a DPS thorax and Concord killed me before I even got through armor.
Maybe it can be done now with the buff to hybrid weapons, but even if it can, then why shouldn't it? Suicide ganking is part of the game. You gotta watch out, and not AFK mine. |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
113
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 21:08:00 -
[79] - Quote
Danny John-Peter wrote:Nobody seems to have pointed this out but the Hulk fits listed before, had a shield tank of around 26k EHP.
Doesnt seem that much does it.
Then you consider something like a Rapier, a dedicated combat vessel has between 24k and 30k EHP.
That is a ridiculous comparison. For a start a Rapier will have many more slots that not just help with maintaining it's HP, but also avoiding getting hit in the first place. Time to-áCOMPLETELY REDESIGN THE U.I. FROM SCRATCH: - End the click fest & Multiple Window fest - Streamline and Simplify it-á - Improve scalability-á |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
113
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 21:10:00 -
[80] - Quote
Leto Aramaus wrote:Yea Whippy, I'm sorry but I'ved tried to gank Hulks with a DPS thorax and Concord killed me before I even got through armor.
Maybe it can be done now with the buff to hybrid weapons, but even if it can, then why shouldn't it? Suicide ganking is part of the game. You gotta watch out, and not AFK mine.
It's called risk Vs reward. How is risking a 200M ISK ship for 20M an hour with a VERY HIGH chance of getting killed possibly rewarding? Time to-áCOMPLETELY REDESIGN THE U.I. FROM SCRATCH: - End the click fest & Multiple Window fest - Streamline and Simplify it-á - Improve scalability-á |
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Momoyo
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
6
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 21:19:00 -
[81] - Quote
Yeh I think hulks have a decent tank and you dont even have to sacrifice much of your mining yield. DMG control and MLU upgrade in the low with buffer shield gives you 23k EHP and you only lose about 130m3/second compared to two MLU. Tank isnt quite as high but its a good compromise. With an orca with siege warfare link it give you 27k.
Like anything else in eve the best way to win is to have more intel than your opponent. Choose a quiet out of the way system Keep an eye on local and dscan, make friends with the local mining corps to find out who regular gankers are. If you blindly mine you deserve to get ganked. |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
113
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 22:08:00 -
[82] - Quote
Momoyo wrote:Yeh I think hulks have a decent tank and you dont even have to sacrifice much of your mining yield. DMG control and MLU upgrade in the low with buffer shield gives you 23k EHP and you only lose about 130m3/second compared to two MLU. Tank isnt quite as high but its a good compromise. With an orca with siege warfare link it give you 27k.
Like anything else in eve the best way to win is to have more intel than your opponent. Choose a quiet out of the way system Keep an eye on local and dscan, make friends with the local mining corps to find out who regular gankers are. If you blindly mine you deserve to get ganked.
You call a Medium Sized ship that can be fully tanked and still die to a frigate in 9k HP a decent tank? Time to-áCOMPLETELY REDESIGN THE U.I. FROM SCRATCH: - End the click fest & Multiple Window fest - Streamline and Simplify it-á - Improve scalability-á |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 23:20:00 -
[83] - Quote
to be fair the rapier vs hulk analogy isn't fair. pick a ship that is equal in market cost or material requirements. like a phobos is in both.
Hulk/Phobos Atmospheric gases 500 / 500 cadmium 900 / 1500 caesium 200 / 200 chromium 300 / 600 cobalt 800 / 1400 dysprosium 100 / 200 evaporite deposites 900 / 1100 hafnium 100 / 100 hydrocarbons 900 / 1600 mercury 500 / 500 neodymium 500 / 500 platinium 800 / 1100 promethium 200 / 300 scandium - silicates 1,200 / 2100 technium 600 / 600 thulium 100 / 100 titanium - tungsten - vandium 200 / 200
Hulk median price 225 Phobos median price 215 (eve-central)
Now i doubt that anyone would make the argument that a hulk can be tanked like a phobos, im not going to either. thats just stupid.
However, i would like to point out that the base stats for the phobos are quite a lot better. (oh wait you say, you are comparing a heavy brawler to an industrial ship! thats hardly a fair comparison, an armor tank to a shield at that! the claymore/onyx so vastly outclasses the hulk that comparing them even on paper is ridiculous. )
going back to rapier vs hulk, a more honest comparison would be between the Lachesis and the hulk, neither one trades tank for a cloak (cause neither one is bonused to warping cloaked) the lachesis can easily achieve a 30k buffer and doesn't sacrifice its bonused abilities. however, the lachesis costs somewhere in the realm of 120 million. not exactly a good cost comparison.
I would sacrifice cargo for buffer. since the introduction of the orca it isnt necessary for the hulk to be the solo mining king. even in line with the ORE origins lore, it should be better at tanking then it is.
lets drop the cargo capacity to say 3k or whatever the max yeild off a single strip II is (bonused mindlink implants whatever) + 200m/3 for spare crystals. and increase the buffer, either in its ability to fit LSE II or base resists or shield amounts whatever.
Id like a ship that can mine in nullsec tank the rat battleship spawns and be the best at what it does, the huge cargo doesnt do much for making people get into fleets. |
Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
55
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 23:31:00 -
[84] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:Momoyo wrote:Yeh I think hulks have a decent tank and you dont even have to sacrifice much of your mining yield. DMG control and MLU upgrade in the low with buffer shield gives you 23k EHP and you only lose about 130m3/second compared to two MLU. Tank isnt quite as high but its a good compromise. With an orca with siege warfare link it give you 27k.
Like anything else in eve the best way to win is to have more intel than your opponent. Choose a quiet out of the way system Keep an eye on local and dscan, make friends with the local mining corps to find out who regular gankers are. If you blindly mine you deserve to get ganked. You call a Medium Sized ship that can be fully tanked and still die to a frigate in 9k HP a decent tank? I call it not knowing how to read a killmail.
9k is HP *after resists*, which that particular ship was loaded with. |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
113
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 23:33:00 -
[85] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:to be fair the rapier vs hulk analogy isn't fair. pick a ship that is equal in market cost or material requirements. like a phobos is in both.
Hulk/Phobos Atmospheric gases 500 / 500 cadmium 900 / 1500 caesium 200 / 200 chromium 300 / 600 cobalt 800 / 1400 dysprosium 100 / 200 evaporite deposites 900 / 1100 hafnium 100 / 100 hydrocarbons 900 / 1600 mercury 500 / 500 neodymium 500 / 500 platinium 800 / 1100 promethium 200 / 300 scandium - silicates 1,200 / 2100 technium 600 / 600 thulium 100 / 100 titanium - tungsten - vandium 200 / 200
Hulk median price 225 Phobos median price 215 (eve-central)
Now i doubt that anyone would make the argument that a hulk can be tanked like a phobos, im not going to either. thats just stupid.
However, i would like to point out that the base stats for the phobos are quite a lot better. (oh wait you say, you are comparing a heavy brawler to an industrial ship! thats hardly a fair comparison, an armor tank to a shield at that! the claymore/onyx so vastly outclasses the hulk that comparing them even on paper is ridiculous. )
going back to rapier vs hulk, a more honest comparison would be between the Lachesis and the hulk, neither one trades tank for a cloak (cause neither one is bonused to warping cloaked) the lachesis can easily achieve a 30k buffer and doesn't sacrifice its bonused abilities. however, the lachesis costs somewhere in the realm of 120 million. not exactly a good cost comparison.
I would sacrifice cargo for buffer. since the introduction of the orca it isnt necessary for the hulk to be the solo mining king. even in line with the ORE origins lore, it should be better at tanking then it is.
lets drop the cargo capacity to say 3k or whatever the max yeild off a single strip II is (bonused mindlink implants whatever) + 200m/3 for spare crystals. and increase the buffer, either in its ability to fit LSE II or base resists or shield amounts whatever.
Id like a ship that can mine in nullsec tank the rat battleship spawns and be the best at what it does, the huge cargo doesnt do much for making people get into fleets.
Great post!
Time to-áCOMPLETELY REDESIGN THE U.I. FROM SCRATCH: - End the click fest & Multiple Window fest - Streamline and Simplify it-á - Improve scalability-á |
Momoyo
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
6
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 23:49:00 -
[86] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:Momoyo wrote:Yeh I think hulks have a decent tank and you dont even have to sacrifice much of your mining yield. DMG control and MLU upgrade in the low with buffer shield gives you 23k EHP and you only lose about 130m3/second compared to two MLU. Tank isnt quite as high but its a good compromise. With an orca with siege warfare link it give you 27k.
Like anything else in eve the best way to win is to have more intel than your opponent. Choose a quiet out of the way system Keep an eye on local and dscan, make friends with the local mining corps to find out who regular gankers are. If you blindly mine you deserve to get ganked. You call a Medium Sized ship that can be fully tanked and still die to a frigate in 9k HP a decent tank?
A buffer tanked anything will die to a frigate if your not paying attention (cept some those passive shield tanked). You could do an active tank but thats less EHP and thats not good if someone is gonna gank you. |
Fredfredbug4
Kings of Kill EVE Animal Control
89
|
Posted - 2012.03.14 23:56:00 -
[87] - Quote
Industrials are supposed to be defenseless. You don't see 18 wheelers with machine guns mounted on them in modern times so I doubt ships meant to do similar functions would do the same in the future. If there is something that must be protected, other vehicles and sometimes aircraft will provide protection for the transport vehicle. As a result in EVE if you want to keep your industrials safe, you are going to need to play with others.
I feel that the suicide gankers are helping EVE. They are forcing miners to either accept the fact the game is an MMO or perish in the process. I honestly get rather annoyed when people want to nerf activities that can easily be countered.
Because I've noticed hi-sec miners lack creativity (only the most boring person can endure watching a laser shoot a rock for hours upon hours) here are some easy solutions to reducing your chances of getting suicide ganked.
1. Join an active (important!) player corp. If you don't want to do this then your pretty much just going to have to accept getting ganked.
2. Create a list of all the suicide bombers that frequent the corp's favorite systems to mind in. Always watch local for any unfriendly names. Give these people corp/alliance wide bad or terrible standings so you and your friends can identify them quickly
3. Hire mercenaries to war dec suicide gankers. You miners are rich anyway.
4. Create a char who's only purpose is to pull concord to your mining belt which is as easy as shooting something with a noob ship. This way if the gankers don't kill you on the first shot they will be dead.
5. Mine in groups with other miners, all in similarly priced ships. This way if a ganker shows up he has several expensive ships to attack rather than just one. The logic is that if the ganker showed up and you were the only one in the belt there is a 100% chance he is going to attack you. But if there are 4 people with the same ship in the same belt there is a 25% chance that you will be targeted.
See? 5 ways off the top of my head on how to reduce the threat of suicide gankers. |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
113
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 00:16:00 -
[88] - Quote
Buzzy Warstl wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:Momoyo wrote:Yeh I think hulks have a decent tank and you dont even have to sacrifice much of your mining yield. DMG control and MLU upgrade in the low with buffer shield gives you 23k EHP and you only lose about 130m3/second compared to two MLU. Tank isnt quite as high but its a good compromise. With an orca with siege warfare link it give you 27k.
Like anything else in eve the best way to win is to have more intel than your opponent. Choose a quiet out of the way system Keep an eye on local and dscan, make friends with the local mining corps to find out who regular gankers are. If you blindly mine you deserve to get ganked. You call a Medium Sized ship that can be fully tanked and still die to a frigate in 9k HP a decent tank? I call it not knowing how to read a killmail. 9k is HP *after resists*, which that particular ship was loaded with.
Flawed reasoning by someone who clearly doesn't have a clue about basic game mechanics let alone Killmails.
If it were as simple as that then this ship: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=15439177
Should have taken more damage than this ship: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=15436306
You clearly don't realise that ammo used, rate of fire, alpha damage, etc. are all deciding factors. Time to-áCOMPLETELY REDESIGN THE U.I. FROM SCRATCH: - End the click fest & Multiple Window fest - Streamline and Simplify it-á - Improve scalability-á |
Miss Whippy
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
113
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Posted - 2012.03.15 00:28:00 -
[89] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:Industrials are supposed to be defenseless.
Says who? Read the description for a hulk.
" They are also far more resilient, better able to handle the dangers of deep space."
Quote: You don't see 18 wheelers with machine guns mounted on them in modern times so I doubt ships meant to do similar functions would do the same in the future.
Ad Hominem arguments just waste everyone's time. No one is asking for hulks to have guns, try reading the title of this thread. We are asking that they have substantial defences. I point again to a typical example of a modern day armoured industrial. http://www.army.mod.uk/royalengineers/equipment/697.aspx This is one example of how wrong you are.
"Trojan's high speed cross country mobility, its technologically advanced vehicle control systems and its enhanced remote CCTV camera systems keep it operating at peak performance whether bounding between cover in the urban environment or advancing towards the enemy in open countryside. With its enormously capable excavator arm, mine plough and dozer blade, it is easy to move around the battle field to perform complex obstacle clearance tasks without the crew having to leave the protection of the Tank."
Quote: If there is something that must be protected, other vehicles and sometimes aircraft will provide protection for the transport vehicle. As a result in EVE if you want to keep your industrials safe, you are going to need to play with others.
Playing with others won't make hulks any less paper thin.
Quote: I feel that the suicide gankers are helping EVE. They are forcing miners to either accept the fact the game is an MMO or perish in the process. I honestly get rather annoyed when people want to nerf activities that can easily be countered.
FFS are you stupid? Where have I said anywhere that suicide ganking should be nerfed? Stop making things up.
Couldn't be bothered to read any more stupidity. Time to-áCOMPLETELY REDESIGN THE U.I. FROM SCRATCH: - End the click fest & Multiple Window fest - Streamline and Simplify it-á - Improve scalability-á |
Momoyo
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
6
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 00:56:00 -
[90] - Quote
Miss Whippy wrote:Buzzy Warstl wrote:Miss Whippy wrote:Momoyo wrote:Yeh I think hulks have a decent tank and you dont even have to sacrifice much of your mining yield. DMG control and MLU upgrade in the low with buffer shield gives you 23k EHP and you only lose about 130m3/second compared to two MLU. Tank isnt quite as high but its a good compromise. With an orca with siege warfare link it give you 27k.
Like anything else in eve the best way to win is to have more intel than your opponent. Choose a quiet out of the way system Keep an eye on local and dscan, make friends with the local mining corps to find out who regular gankers are. If you blindly mine you deserve to get ganked. You call a Medium Sized ship that can be fully tanked and still die to a frigate in 9k HP a decent tank? I call it not knowing how to read a killmail. 9k is HP *after resists*, which that particular ship was loaded with. Flawed reasoning by someone who clearly doesn't have a clue about basic game mechanics let alone Killmails. If it were as simple as that then this ship: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=15439177Should have taken more damage than this ship: http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/killmail.php?id=15436306You clearly don't realise that ammo used, rate of fire, alpha damage, etc. are all deciding factors.
Second ship has shield rigs hence the higher HP |
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