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Ceylana Zari
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Posted - 2008.06.14 14:20:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Ceylana Zari on 14/06/2008 14:27:39 I am not the most eloquent person out there so I will post this as best as possible so that everyone can form their own opinion.
I believe the Pilgrim needs to be looked at for balancing issues. Of all the force recons it is completely outside the box. First I will do a comparison of the Recons to get a feel of why the Pilgrim should be looked at to be fixed to be more in line with the rest of the Force Recons.
Minmatar: The Hugin, which is the Combat Recon, receives bonuses as such: 25% Medium Projectiles ROF, 37.5% Target Painter Effectiveness, 300% Web Range and 25% to Heavy, HAM and Assault Launcher ROF.
The Rapier, which is the Force Recon, receives bonuses as such: 25% Medium Projectile ROF, 37.5% Target Painter Effectiveness, 300% Web Range and 96% - 100% reduction Cloaking CPU. Role Bonus: 80% Reduction Liquid Ozone use and 50% reduction in Cyno Field Duration.
Caldari: The Rook, which is the Combat Recon, receives bonuses as such: 50% reduction ECM Cap Use, 100% ECM Optimal, 100% ECM Strength, 25% Heavey and Light Kinetic Missile Damage.
The Falcon, which is the Force Recon, receives bonuses as such: 50% reduction ECM Cap Use, 100% ECM Optimal, 100% ECM Strength and 96% - 100% reduction Cloaking CPU. Role Bonus: 80% Reduction Liquid Ozone use and 50% reduction in Cyno Field Duration.
Gallente: Lachesis, which is the Combat Recon, receives bonuses as such: 25% Medium Hybrid Turret Damage, 25% Remote Sensor Dampener Effectiveness, 100% Warp Disruptor Range and 25% Heavy Missile Launcher and Assault Missile Launcher.
Arazu, which is the Force recon, receives bonuses as such: 25% Medium Hybrid Turret Damage, 25% Remote Sensor Dampener Effectiveness, 100% Warp Disruptor Range and 96% - 100% reduction Cloaking CPU. Role Bonus: 80% Reduction Liquid Ozone use and 50% reduction in Cyno Field Duration.
Amarr: Curse, which is the Combat Recon, receives bonuses as such: 25% Tracking Disruptor Effectiveness, 50% Bonus Drone Hit Points and Damage, 200% Nos and Neut Range and 100% Bonus to Nos and Neut Ammount.
Pilgrim, which is the Force Recon, receives bonuses as such: 25% Tracking Disruptor Effectiveness, 50% Bonus Drone Hit Points and Damage, 100% Bonus to Nos and Neut Ammount and 96% - 100% reduction Cloaking CPU. Role Bonus: 80% Reduction Liquid Ozone use and 50% reduction in Cyno Field Duration.
The first thing you will notice is that the Pilgrim is the only Force Recon that loses its range bonus. The range of the regular T2 Medium Nos and Neut is 12 KM. This means that to be in range to use this specialized cap weapon you have to also be in close combat range, web range and scram range. Forcing the Pilgrim into a niche role of the only Recon that must be in close range to use all of its bonuses. Before the Nos nerf this was OK as it could Nos a target to fuel any tank it my field. Since the Nos nerf it is no longer a viable option since it must itself be in nos and neut range to fight. Putting it at a huge disadvantage compared to any other Recon ship at large.
I believe that to bring it in line with the other Recon there are two viable options. Please feel free to share your own if you disagree, but when it comes down to it the Pilgrim needs to be fixed.
Option 1: Since this is a drone boat on top of being a Recon it would seem to me that it needs to do its damage with Drones. So remove the drone bonus but increase the bandwidth to 125Mb so that it can field heavies similar to the ishtar (without a dmg bonus) and replace the bonus with a bonus for its tank since it must fight in close range to use all its bonuses. Either an increase in Armor Resists similar to a Mauller at 5% per level or increase its armor amount similar to the NI Augoror at 10% per level. This would allow it to filed a decent tank to survive long enough to use its bonuses.
Option 2: Remove the Drone damage bonus since all the other Combat Recon have one damage bonus removed and let it retain the range bonus.
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Ceylana Zari
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Posted - 2008.06.14 14:20:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Ceylana Zari on 14/06/2008 14:25:05 This would allow it to remain in line with the rest of the Combat and Force Recons and letting it use all of the bonuses it has been given at a safe range. It would no longer be able to do any damage to speak of which may upset some people. So possibly go with the option in the last fix and increase the Bandwidth a bit.
I have flown the Pilgrim quite a bit and have some experience with it. I am by no means an expert with it but I do like the option to fly a semi-combat ship that can warp cloaked. At the moment it's only viable against noob who don't know what they are doing and a very select line of ships. Any missile boats, passive tanks or well skilled pilot will defeat a pilgrim pilot simply due to it having to be in combat range when it doesn't have the ability to take the damage that is required to be in that range and effectively use all of its bonuses the way other Force Recon can.
Thank you for reading. Please feel free to leave your comments and suggestions as I know this isn't the end all tell all and there are probably much better ideas and suggestions that what I have come up with.
CZ
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Ceylana Zari
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Posted - 2008.06.14 14:21:00 -
[3]
Reserved
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Stalkman
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Posted - 2008.06.14 16:30:00 -
[4]
Well writen up post.
/signed
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Sabrina Al'Kian
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Posted - 2008.06.14 16:53:00 -
[5]
I agree the Pilgrim needs a boost, but not via any of your suggested options. You came close to what we really need, but you never quite hit it.
Here it is: option 3. Replace it's amount bonus with a range bonus, but keep all other aspects the same. This would bring it in line with the other force recons (except the Falcon) in the way that they get range bonuses, but lose out on one of the effectiveness bonuses.
This would not obsolesce the Curse, as the Curse would retain an extra mid slot and have a much higher neuting potential. It would, however, make the Pilgrim viable in gangs or solo; as it is, it's lucky to kill a cruiser, and in gangs the Curse FAR out-performs it.
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Corwain
DIE WITH HONOUR
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Posted - 2008.06.14 17:56:00 -
[6]
Pilgrim certainly needs something. -- Distortion| Distortion 2 Preview |
Phoenix492
Orion Expeditions
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Posted - 2008.06.14 18:53:00 -
[7]
/signed.
Pilgrim needs some Love. Since the Problem was first posted (by Hydrogen) nearly 8 months, and roughly 30-odd pages of support, still no word from CCP..
WHAT IS WRITTEN ABOVE IS MY OWN OPINION, AND IS IN NO WAY THE VIEWS OF MY CORP / ALLIANCE. ANY PROBLEMS - SEE ME |
Hastur DragonTooth
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.06.14 22:05:00 -
[8]
CCP needs to make the pilgrim worth flying.
Rapier = Great asset for our gang. Falcon = Great asset for our gang. Pilgrim = Do you have any other ship you can bring? .. |
Anubis Hatak
OUTLAWZ IMMORTAL White Core
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Posted - 2008.06.14 22:47:00 -
[9]
I agree, just looking at it's bonuses compared to the others it needs boosting.
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willschn794
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Posted - 2008.06.15 06:50:00 -
[10]
Not signed, pilgrim is the large bubble/ammo hauler in gang.
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Slaid Destin
Middleton and Mercer LLP The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2008.06.16 02:32:00 -
[11]
/agree
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Feng Schui
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.06.16 06:10:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Feng Schui on 16/06/2008 06:13:25 I do agree that the pilgrim does need something, but I am not too fond of your ideas to be honest.
I think that we, as a community, should first try to get the developers to actually acknowledge that they seriously screwed up the Pilgrim, and to some extent, the Curse and Bhaalgorn.
First, it was the NOS nerf. This was intended to only nerf NOS-domi's and NOS-myrmidons.
Then, it was the drone bay, and tracking disruptor scripts.
Even in a live devblog, when I asked the question in the forums about the EWAR and force recons, the developer even said, "well, we didn't really look at how scripts would affect recons, but I mean, we look at everything".
Seriously, what the bloody hell is that? Shouldn't the FIRST thing you should look at be how a nerf will affect the ship it is meant to go on? Especially when the modules for that ship work as intended before the nerf? This development plan makes me sad.
Anyways, after we get public acknowledgement that yes, the Pilgrim is broken, we must then ask the developers when we can expect to see changes. No, I am not hoping it is changed tomorrow, because if it was, it would be a half assed solution. Will it be during the Ambulation patch? After it? Next year? Approximately when can we see changes?
There have been a number of recommended changes by the community, all of which have seemingly gone ignored by CCP (*hint *hint.. all we want is acknowledgment that you have read the thread + options inside of it.. you know what thread I am talking about).
Personally, the FIRST thing I would change is the powergrid. It needs to be boosted, alot. It wasn't necessary when we where not forced to use a cap booster, but now we are...
The second thing that needs to be looked at, is its role in the game. Its role as a soloer, as a gang ship, and as a fleet ship. What is it expected to do in each role? How is it broken in each role? Here is a small, very small list:
- Solo: Does not have the range, as all other force recons do, to stay outside of the "red" (ie: web range) and does not have the cargo space to out-cap most opponents. Its entire weapon system can be destroyed, quite easily.
- Gang: Again, it operates well within web range. Its weapon system can be destroyed quite easily. Its slow and does not have the range to counter ranged opponents.
- Fleet: Does not have the range to operate within Fleet based warfare ranges. Does not have the ability to go into a system and lay down cyno generators, due to its horrid tanking ability. If you deploy a cyno, you will be killed. This is a known fact to anyone that has used a cyno. Why use an expensive force recon to do what a cheap ass frigate can do?
Of course, this is just a small list, and some, or many, of you may not agree with these, however, the issues are still there, and there are many more of them.
Project:Gank
Pilgrim Guide
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Hurtado Soneka
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Posted - 2008.06.16 06:15:00 -
[13]
disagree
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Dlardrageth
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.06.16 07:09:00 -
[14]
I would support a closer look by the devs at the Pilgrim, but I cannot say I really like either of your suggestions that well. Still, supporting it FWIW.
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Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
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Posted - 2008.06.16 07:17:00 -
[15]
Support for option 2 - the other force recons don't do jack for damage, so extending that to the pilgrim but allowing it to function in its primary role of nuking someone's cap is perfectly fine by me. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
Kai Zion
The Zion Accounts
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Posted - 2008.06.16 07:43:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Kai Zion on 16/06/2008 07:46:32 Pilgrim needs some kind of fix, agreed.
Edit: Not sure about those proposed changes however, but it certainly needs looking at. Feng's post is a good one.
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steejans nix
0beron Construct
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Posted - 2008.06.16 08:04:00 -
[17]
Would def support the pilgrim being looked at, mainly as i'm about to get one and i need all the help i can get !!
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.06.16 09:58:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Sabrina Al'Kian I agree the Pilgrim needs a boost, but not via any of your suggested options. You came close to what we really need, but you never quite hit it.
Here it is: option 3. Replace it's amount bonus with a range bonus, but keep all other aspects the same. This would bring it in line with the other force recons (except the Falcon) in the way that they get range bonuses, but lose out on one of the effectiveness bonuses.
This would not obsolesce the Curse, as the Curse would retain an extra mid slot and have a much higher neuting potential. It would, however, make the Pilgrim viable in gangs or solo; as it is, it's lucky to kill a cruiser, and in gangs the Curse FAR out-performs it.
Sounds like a plan.
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Toriel Loranor
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Posted - 2008.06.16 21:01:00 -
[19]
+support |
Feng Schui
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.06.17 03:14:00 -
[20]
Remember, you still have to look how each recon "tanks" as well.
1) The Rook tanks by jamming
2) The Arazu tanks by dampening
3) The Rapier tanks by speed + range
4) The Pilgrim tanks by sucking enough cap to fuel his reppers.
Even with just using a NOS and cap boosters, there I can only tank for.. 45 seconds abouts. This is with Recon 5, Energy Emissions, yada yada yada.
Only IF tracking disruptors affected missile boats and drones, I would agree to giving amount NOS amount for Range. It really needs both to be effective, OR a tanking bonus.
Why not just give the cyno bonus to Black Ops (they have the *laugh* tank to stand up to a hit or 2), and give all recons an inert tanking bonus instead?
1) Rook: Shield bonus (why.. I have no idea, because Caldari are shield tankers)
2) Gallente: Rep amount bonus
3) Rapier: Speed bonus
4) Pilgrim: HP or resist bonus
Damage wise, if you get rid of the damage the drones do on the pilgrim, it will be the deathblow to the ship, since not only are drones easily killed, they won't do crap for damage, therefore, increasing the amount of time you are getting hit.
Project:Gank
Pilgrim Guide
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Eric Yu
Game-Over Consortium Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.18 10:03:00 -
[21]
/signed Pilgrim is awful, u guys need to overlook it.
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OrcishMonkey
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates
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Posted - 2008.06.18 10:22:00 -
[22]
take away the drone bonus and give it a range bonus its an easy fix. if you want damage fly a curse. its the same with caldari, whens the last time you saw a falcon do any dmg? besides youd still have a beasty drone bay and the amount of "behind the scenes" damage your doing can be IMMMENSE. make the dam ship a force recon, give it its ewar bonuses and take away its dmg. you want dmg? thats what combat recons are for. the idea is to balance the ship not make it a solo god. you guys have to remember that neuts = dmg to any active tank.
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Linsyn
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Posted - 2008.06.18 13:33:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Linsyn on 18/06/2008 13:33:01 Support it
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Nephilim Xeno
Pimebeka Mining Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.18 17:16:00 -
[24]
agree
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Niesh Destin
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Posted - 2008.06.19 13:01:00 -
[25]
agree
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Colonel Rykef
Animus Exuro
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Posted - 2008.06.19 13:41:00 -
[26]
yes it needs an overhaul but dont like your suggestions
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Lord WarATron
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.19 14:00:00 -
[27]
I agree. Give pilgrim Cargo bonus so it can be better cov ops hauler. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Zafriel
Acidic Reign
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Posted - 2008.06.19 14:11:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Hastur DragonTooth CCP needs to make the pilgrim worth flying.
Rapier = Great asset for our gang. Falcon = Great asset for our gang. Pilgrim = Do you have any other ship you can bring?
Funny, pitty its sad cause its so true
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Niraco79
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.19 15:41:00 -
[29]
agreed..my alt is crying for a better recon
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Arkios Odymei
Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.19 16:11:00 -
[30]
Interesting ideas, not sure if this is the way to fix the pilgrim, but it does need something so /signed.
One more thing that popped into my mind... How would a "reduction of energy emession systems cap use" Bonus of say 10% per level work out (-50% cap use on Neuts @lvl5)? I kinda think that being a close range hunter-stalker is an interesting niche for the pilgrim, and I'd rather see it stay in this niche than get a long range bonus. This would probably replace the TD bonus or maybe the Drone bonus. I dunno, I havent given it much thought, its just an idea that poped into to my mind and I decided to throw it out there. ------------------------------------------------------------------
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