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Ceylana Zari
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Posted - 2008.06.14 14:20:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Ceylana Zari on 14/06/2008 14:27:39 I am not the most eloquent person out there so I will post this as best as possible so that everyone can form their own opinion.
I believe the Pilgrim needs to be looked at for balancing issues. Of all the force recons it is completely outside the box. First I will do a comparison of the Recons to get a feel of why the Pilgrim should be looked at to be fixed to be more in line with the rest of the Force Recons.
Minmatar: The Hugin, which is the Combat Recon, receives bonuses as such: 25% Medium Projectiles ROF, 37.5% Target Painter Effectiveness, 300% Web Range and 25% to Heavy, HAM and Assault Launcher ROF.
The Rapier, which is the Force Recon, receives bonuses as such: 25% Medium Projectile ROF, 37.5% Target Painter Effectiveness, 300% Web Range and 96% - 100% reduction Cloaking CPU. Role Bonus: 80% Reduction Liquid Ozone use and 50% reduction in Cyno Field Duration.
Caldari: The Rook, which is the Combat Recon, receives bonuses as such: 50% reduction ECM Cap Use, 100% ECM Optimal, 100% ECM Strength, 25% Heavey and Light Kinetic Missile Damage.
The Falcon, which is the Force Recon, receives bonuses as such: 50% reduction ECM Cap Use, 100% ECM Optimal, 100% ECM Strength and 96% - 100% reduction Cloaking CPU. Role Bonus: 80% Reduction Liquid Ozone use and 50% reduction in Cyno Field Duration.
Gallente: Lachesis, which is the Combat Recon, receives bonuses as such: 25% Medium Hybrid Turret Damage, 25% Remote Sensor Dampener Effectiveness, 100% Warp Disruptor Range and 25% Heavy Missile Launcher and Assault Missile Launcher.
Arazu, which is the Force recon, receives bonuses as such: 25% Medium Hybrid Turret Damage, 25% Remote Sensor Dampener Effectiveness, 100% Warp Disruptor Range and 96% - 100% reduction Cloaking CPU. Role Bonus: 80% Reduction Liquid Ozone use and 50% reduction in Cyno Field Duration.
Amarr: Curse, which is the Combat Recon, receives bonuses as such: 25% Tracking Disruptor Effectiveness, 50% Bonus Drone Hit Points and Damage, 200% Nos and Neut Range and 100% Bonus to Nos and Neut Ammount.
Pilgrim, which is the Force Recon, receives bonuses as such: 25% Tracking Disruptor Effectiveness, 50% Bonus Drone Hit Points and Damage, 100% Bonus to Nos and Neut Ammount and 96% - 100% reduction Cloaking CPU. Role Bonus: 80% Reduction Liquid Ozone use and 50% reduction in Cyno Field Duration.
The first thing you will notice is that the Pilgrim is the only Force Recon that loses its range bonus. The range of the regular T2 Medium Nos and Neut is 12 KM. This means that to be in range to use this specialized cap weapon you have to also be in close combat range, web range and scram range. Forcing the Pilgrim into a niche role of the only Recon that must be in close range to use all of its bonuses. Before the Nos nerf this was OK as it could Nos a target to fuel any tank it my field. Since the Nos nerf it is no longer a viable option since it must itself be in nos and neut range to fight. Putting it at a huge disadvantage compared to any other Recon ship at large.
I believe that to bring it in line with the other Recon there are two viable options. Please feel free to share your own if you disagree, but when it comes down to it the Pilgrim needs to be fixed.
Option 1: Since this is a drone boat on top of being a Recon it would seem to me that it needs to do its damage with Drones. So remove the drone bonus but increase the bandwidth to 125Mb so that it can field heavies similar to the ishtar (without a dmg bonus) and replace the bonus with a bonus for its tank since it must fight in close range to use all its bonuses. Either an increase in Armor Resists similar to a Mauller at 5% per level or increase its armor amount similar to the NI Augoror at 10% per level. This would allow it to filed a decent tank to survive long enough to use its bonuses.
Option 2: Remove the Drone damage bonus since all the other Combat Recon have one damage bonus removed and let it retain the range bonus.
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Ceylana Zari
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Posted - 2008.06.14 14:20:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Ceylana Zari on 14/06/2008 14:25:05 This would allow it to remain in line with the rest of the Combat and Force Recons and letting it use all of the bonuses it has been given at a safe range. It would no longer be able to do any damage to speak of which may upset some people. So possibly go with the option in the last fix and increase the Bandwidth a bit.
I have flown the Pilgrim quite a bit and have some experience with it. I am by no means an expert with it but I do like the option to fly a semi-combat ship that can warp cloaked. At the moment it's only viable against noob who don't know what they are doing and a very select line of ships. Any missile boats, passive tanks or well skilled pilot will defeat a pilgrim pilot simply due to it having to be in combat range when it doesn't have the ability to take the damage that is required to be in that range and effectively use all of its bonuses the way other Force Recon can.
Thank you for reading. Please feel free to leave your comments and suggestions as I know this isn't the end all tell all and there are probably much better ideas and suggestions that what I have come up with.
CZ
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Ceylana Zari
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Posted - 2008.06.14 14:21:00 -
[3]
Reserved
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Stalkman
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Posted - 2008.06.14 16:30:00 -
[4]
Well writen up post.
/signed
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Sabrina Al'Kian
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Posted - 2008.06.14 16:53:00 -
[5]
I agree the Pilgrim needs a boost, but not via any of your suggested options. You came close to what we really need, but you never quite hit it.
Here it is: option 3. Replace it's amount bonus with a range bonus, but keep all other aspects the same. This would bring it in line with the other force recons (except the Falcon) in the way that they get range bonuses, but lose out on one of the effectiveness bonuses.
This would not obsolesce the Curse, as the Curse would retain an extra mid slot and have a much higher neuting potential. It would, however, make the Pilgrim viable in gangs or solo; as it is, it's lucky to kill a cruiser, and in gangs the Curse FAR out-performs it.
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Corwain
DIE WITH HONOUR
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Posted - 2008.06.14 17:56:00 -
[6]
Pilgrim certainly needs something. -- Distortion| Distortion 2 Preview |
Phoenix492
Orion Expeditions
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Posted - 2008.06.14 18:53:00 -
[7]
/signed.
Pilgrim needs some Love. Since the Problem was first posted (by Hydrogen) nearly 8 months, and roughly 30-odd pages of support, still no word from CCP..
WHAT IS WRITTEN ABOVE IS MY OWN OPINION, AND IS IN NO WAY THE VIEWS OF MY CORP / ALLIANCE. ANY PROBLEMS - SEE ME |
Hastur DragonTooth
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2008.06.14 22:05:00 -
[8]
CCP needs to make the pilgrim worth flying.
Rapier = Great asset for our gang. Falcon = Great asset for our gang. Pilgrim = Do you have any other ship you can bring? .. |
Anubis Hatak
OUTLAWZ IMMORTAL White Core
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Posted - 2008.06.14 22:47:00 -
[9]
I agree, just looking at it's bonuses compared to the others it needs boosting.
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willschn794
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Posted - 2008.06.15 06:50:00 -
[10]
Not signed, pilgrim is the large bubble/ammo hauler in gang.
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Slaid Destin
Middleton and Mercer LLP The Volition Cult
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Posted - 2008.06.16 02:32:00 -
[11]
/agree
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Feng Schui
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.06.16 06:10:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Feng Schui on 16/06/2008 06:13:25 I do agree that the pilgrim does need something, but I am not too fond of your ideas to be honest.
I think that we, as a community, should first try to get the developers to actually acknowledge that they seriously screwed up the Pilgrim, and to some extent, the Curse and Bhaalgorn.
First, it was the NOS nerf. This was intended to only nerf NOS-domi's and NOS-myrmidons.
Then, it was the drone bay, and tracking disruptor scripts.
Even in a live devblog, when I asked the question in the forums about the EWAR and force recons, the developer even said, "well, we didn't really look at how scripts would affect recons, but I mean, we look at everything".
Seriously, what the bloody hell is that? Shouldn't the FIRST thing you should look at be how a nerf will affect the ship it is meant to go on? Especially when the modules for that ship work as intended before the nerf? This development plan makes me sad.
Anyways, after we get public acknowledgement that yes, the Pilgrim is broken, we must then ask the developers when we can expect to see changes. No, I am not hoping it is changed tomorrow, because if it was, it would be a half assed solution. Will it be during the Ambulation patch? After it? Next year? Approximately when can we see changes?
There have been a number of recommended changes by the community, all of which have seemingly gone ignored by CCP (*hint *hint.. all we want is acknowledgment that you have read the thread + options inside of it.. you know what thread I am talking about).
Personally, the FIRST thing I would change is the powergrid. It needs to be boosted, alot. It wasn't necessary when we where not forced to use a cap booster, but now we are...
The second thing that needs to be looked at, is its role in the game. Its role as a soloer, as a gang ship, and as a fleet ship. What is it expected to do in each role? How is it broken in each role? Here is a small, very small list:
- Solo: Does not have the range, as all other force recons do, to stay outside of the "red" (ie: web range) and does not have the cargo space to out-cap most opponents. Its entire weapon system can be destroyed, quite easily.
- Gang: Again, it operates well within web range. Its weapon system can be destroyed quite easily. Its slow and does not have the range to counter ranged opponents.
- Fleet: Does not have the range to operate within Fleet based warfare ranges. Does not have the ability to go into a system and lay down cyno generators, due to its horrid tanking ability. If you deploy a cyno, you will be killed. This is a known fact to anyone that has used a cyno. Why use an expensive force recon to do what a cheap ass frigate can do?
Of course, this is just a small list, and some, or many, of you may not agree with these, however, the issues are still there, and there are many more of them.
Project:Gank
Pilgrim Guide
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Hurtado Soneka
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Posted - 2008.06.16 06:15:00 -
[13]
disagree
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Dlardrageth
Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2008.06.16 07:09:00 -
[14]
I would support a closer look by the devs at the Pilgrim, but I cannot say I really like either of your suggestions that well. Still, supporting it FWIW.
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Wrayeth
Inexorable Retribution
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Posted - 2008.06.16 07:17:00 -
[15]
Support for option 2 - the other force recons don't do jack for damage, so extending that to the pilgrim but allowing it to function in its primary role of nuking someone's cap is perfectly fine by me. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
Kai Zion
The Zion Accounts
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Posted - 2008.06.16 07:43:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Kai Zion on 16/06/2008 07:46:32 Pilgrim needs some kind of fix, agreed.
Edit: Not sure about those proposed changes however, but it certainly needs looking at. Feng's post is a good one.
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steejans nix
0beron Construct
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Posted - 2008.06.16 08:04:00 -
[17]
Would def support the pilgrim being looked at, mainly as i'm about to get one and i need all the help i can get !!
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.06.16 09:58:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Sabrina Al'Kian I agree the Pilgrim needs a boost, but not via any of your suggested options. You came close to what we really need, but you never quite hit it.
Here it is: option 3. Replace it's amount bonus with a range bonus, but keep all other aspects the same. This would bring it in line with the other force recons (except the Falcon) in the way that they get range bonuses, but lose out on one of the effectiveness bonuses.
This would not obsolesce the Curse, as the Curse would retain an extra mid slot and have a much higher neuting potential. It would, however, make the Pilgrim viable in gangs or solo; as it is, it's lucky to kill a cruiser, and in gangs the Curse FAR out-performs it.
Sounds like a plan.
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Toriel Loranor
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Posted - 2008.06.16 21:01:00 -
[19]
+support |
Feng Schui
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.06.17 03:14:00 -
[20]
Remember, you still have to look how each recon "tanks" as well.
1) The Rook tanks by jamming
2) The Arazu tanks by dampening
3) The Rapier tanks by speed + range
4) The Pilgrim tanks by sucking enough cap to fuel his reppers.
Even with just using a NOS and cap boosters, there I can only tank for.. 45 seconds abouts. This is with Recon 5, Energy Emissions, yada yada yada.
Only IF tracking disruptors affected missile boats and drones, I would agree to giving amount NOS amount for Range. It really needs both to be effective, OR a tanking bonus.
Why not just give the cyno bonus to Black Ops (they have the *laugh* tank to stand up to a hit or 2), and give all recons an inert tanking bonus instead?
1) Rook: Shield bonus (why.. I have no idea, because Caldari are shield tankers)
2) Gallente: Rep amount bonus
3) Rapier: Speed bonus
4) Pilgrim: HP or resist bonus
Damage wise, if you get rid of the damage the drones do on the pilgrim, it will be the deathblow to the ship, since not only are drones easily killed, they won't do crap for damage, therefore, increasing the amount of time you are getting hit.
Project:Gank
Pilgrim Guide
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Eric Yu
Game-Over Consortium Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.18 10:03:00 -
[21]
/signed Pilgrim is awful, u guys need to overlook it.
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OrcishMonkey
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates
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Posted - 2008.06.18 10:22:00 -
[22]
take away the drone bonus and give it a range bonus its an easy fix. if you want damage fly a curse. its the same with caldari, whens the last time you saw a falcon do any dmg? besides youd still have a beasty drone bay and the amount of "behind the scenes" damage your doing can be IMMMENSE. make the dam ship a force recon, give it its ewar bonuses and take away its dmg. you want dmg? thats what combat recons are for. the idea is to balance the ship not make it a solo god. you guys have to remember that neuts = dmg to any active tank.
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Linsyn
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Posted - 2008.06.18 13:33:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Linsyn on 18/06/2008 13:33:01 Support it
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Nephilim Xeno
Pimebeka Mining Corp
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Posted - 2008.06.18 17:16:00 -
[24]
agree
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Niesh Destin
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Posted - 2008.06.19 13:01:00 -
[25]
agree
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Colonel Rykef
Animus Exuro
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Posted - 2008.06.19 13:41:00 -
[26]
yes it needs an overhaul but dont like your suggestions
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Lord WarATron
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.19 14:00:00 -
[27]
I agree. Give pilgrim Cargo bonus so it can be better cov ops hauler. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Zafriel
Acidic Reign
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Posted - 2008.06.19 14:11:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Hastur DragonTooth CCP needs to make the pilgrim worth flying.
Rapier = Great asset for our gang. Falcon = Great asset for our gang. Pilgrim = Do you have any other ship you can bring?
Funny, pitty its sad cause its so true
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Niraco79
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.19 15:41:00 -
[29]
agreed..my alt is crying for a better recon
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Arkios Odymei
Incarnation of Evil Nocturnal Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.19 16:11:00 -
[30]
Interesting ideas, not sure if this is the way to fix the pilgrim, but it does need something so /signed.
One more thing that popped into my mind... How would a "reduction of energy emession systems cap use" Bonus of say 10% per level work out (-50% cap use on Neuts @lvl5)? I kinda think that being a close range hunter-stalker is an interesting niche for the pilgrim, and I'd rather see it stay in this niche than get a long range bonus. This would probably replace the TD bonus or maybe the Drone bonus. I dunno, I havent given it much thought, its just an idea that poped into to my mind and I decided to throw it out there. ------------------------------------------------------------------
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Silgaran
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Posted - 2008.06.20 20:57:00 -
[31]
/signed
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Blind Jhon
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Posted - 2008.06.20 21:34:00 -
[32]
i saw what nos nerf contribute to do at tempest...
...and it several dismantled amarr recon.. now is the time to do someting...
in italy we say that after some time a problem starts smelling
MEH 100% SUPORT THIS REQUEST fix the amar recon asap
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Tankn00blicus
Cosmic Vacum Cleaners
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Posted - 2008.06.20 22:25:00 -
[33]
Option 2 sounds nice.
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Karan Hanid
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Posted - 2008.06.21 02:54:00 -
[34]
/signed
Pilgrim needs to be reworked.
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Cheraldo
Human Liberty Syndicate Vanguard.
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Posted - 2008.06.21 19:42:00 -
[35]
Agree, it needs the range bonus __________________________________ Oops. My brain just hit a bad sector. |
FunzzeR
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.22 19:02:00 -
[36]
Edited by: FunzzeR on 22/06/2008 19:02:56 Agreed, give the pilgrim some love....
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Chris Vattic
Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2008.06.23 11:26:00 -
[37]
I think swapping the Recon skill requirement for Amarr Industrial V one brings out it's intended purpose. I mean, what else can carry 1,400 m3 of stuff, be agile and use a Cov Ops cloak? After a 30 page thread about making it viable for PvP without any responses what else could it mean, CCP clearly wants it to be a hauler...
And yes, I fully endorse this product. Give it Nos and Neutralizer range and maybe remove the Nosferatu nerf, that should stop people thinking 'lulz' when one brings a Pilgrim into the gang. --
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Trader Man
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Posted - 2008.06.24 15:51:00 -
[38]
+1
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Arkanjuca
R.U.S.T.
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Posted - 2008.06.24 18:46:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Arkanjuca on 24/06/2008 18:46:41 +1
edit: support -- AF should be like HACs
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EveTerrorist
Pirate Coalition
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Posted - 2008.06.25 13:12:00 -
[40]
/signed
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Zulfiqaar
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Posted - 2008.06.25 18:46:00 -
[41]
hmmm. amarr recon = curse. its the most baddass combat recon out there. i reckon the pilgrim should give up the NOS/Neut charade, just give it a bonus for remote armour rep, et voila, one cloaked logistics ship for your ninja gang. would a cloaked curse not be totally Imba? and atm, there's no solid logistics for the cloaked family... if there not going to 'fix' the pilgrims bonuses, they should at least give it a new/needed role, coz atm, its just a coffin with wings...
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Synapse Archae
Demonic Retribution Un-Natural Selection
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Posted - 2008.06.25 18:51:00 -
[42]
Supported. So unhappy the pilgrim doesn rock like it should. - - - Originally by: CCP Garthagk While these forums may not give you everything that you want, they will usually let you post.
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Wolf Soldier
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.06.26 14:53:00 -
[43]
change is needed
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Taex
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Posted - 2008.07.16 21:43:00 -
[44]
The pilgrim is a broken epic failboat.
Fix it.
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Pran Chole
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Posted - 2008.07.16 21:44:00 -
[45]
/signed
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Tepelath
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Posted - 2008.07.16 21:52:00 -
[46]
Why doesn't it have the range bonuses like every other recon?
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Xaen
Caritas.
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Posted - 2008.07.16 21:53:00 -
[47]
I dunno about the options in the OP, but the Pilgrim needs professional help.
I love my curse, but the pilgrim is a joke. - Support fixing the UI|Suggest Jita fixes|Compact logs |
Sieessenschwanz
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Posted - 2008.07.16 21:54:00 -
[48]
this thing is still broken?!?!!
wtf?
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MarleWH
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Posted - 2008.07.17 03:46:00 -
[49]
CCP says "No, we are way to lazy to fix anything important like this."
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LetsDoThis
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Posted - 2008.07.17 04:16:00 -
[50]
Edited by: LetsDoThis on 17/07/2008 04:16:31 Remove tracking disrupter bonus and add give nos/neut range.
and leave my goddamn drone bonus alone
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Christari Zuborov
Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.17 04:40:00 -
[51]
Needs fixed badly!
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Itanis
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams
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Posted - 2008.07.17 06:21:00 -
[52]
The pilgrim (and curse for that matter) need to be restored to gangsta status.
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MarleWH
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Posted - 2008.07.17 06:39:00 -
[53]
Can we get some CCP or CSM luvin in here?
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Inertial
The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.07.17 07:55:00 -
[54]
I WUB OPTION 1! GIEF ME OGRE IIs WIHT MAH PELGREM!
we are recruiting!
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OHNODICKYSPROUTS
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Posted - 2008.07.17 19:10:00 -
[55]
Yes
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Thorradin
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.07.18 02:08:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Itanis The pilgrim (and curse for that matter) need to be restored to gangsta status.
Yes I demand for the Curse to return to multiple-BS-pwning mode.
Seriously? The Curse is evil as hell still. The Pilgrim should probably be reworked, although, if they gave it about 2k cargo, I think it'd be awesome. The amarr would have a Force Recon Indy, and as silly as that sounds to some, I think it'd actually be pretty badass.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.18 10:10:00 -
[57]
Nicely written and thought out post-to a certain extent. While in general agreement that the Pilgrim can use "something" I believe your suggestions to improve the ship are heading in the wrong direction and detract from the overall unique scary-in-your-face nature of the ship.
Flying-as you say-"outside the box" is not a bad thing at all.
"NOS/Neut Range bonus"-Why is this needed? So the Pilgrim too can become another variation on speed fits? The Curse does this just fine!
Prior to the NOS balance nobody complained the Pilgrim was too slow or suffered in any real fashion by being a short range attacker. Since the NOS balance the Pilgrim simply needs more pilot skill and creativity in order to fly with effectiveness. And lets admit it...pre-NOS balance/drone bandwidth changes the Pilgrim WAS overpowered.
Current examples:
1-I know for a fact the Verone (Veto) engaged multiple cruisers solo...killing a couple and actually ransoming the remainder. This is post-balancing btw.
2-I put a lot of thought into the Pilgrim when I cross-trained Amarr specifically for the Pilgrim/Curse (I am a full-spec Minmatar recon pilot btw). After a lot of thought and testing I came up with what I believe is a pretty solid fit resulting in (just last week):
Victim: XXXXXXX Corp: XXXXXXX Alliance: XXXXXXX Faction: NONE Destroyed: Vagabond System: Frerstorn Security: 0.3 Damage Taken: 13369
Involved parties:
Name: RuleoftheBone (laid the final blow) Security: -9.7 Corp: XXXXXXXX Alliance: XXXXXXX Faction: NONE Ship: Pilgrim Weapon: Hammerhead II Damage Done: 10831
Name: Angel Hunter / Archangels Damage Done: 2538
Vagabond was a generic vanilla fit caught stalking noob dessies in belts. Pilot was taken completely by surprise (as it should be) upon decloaking and instantly found himself with zero cap, webbed, and tracking disrupted (Turret destab IV on my part). The only weapon of his remaining useful were his 5 Warrior II's that eventually burned off my shields while barely scratching my armor tank (details shortly) before he dropped after roughly 4 minutes. I expended exactly one cap booster 800...and that was mostly to make room for loot .
Please refrain from pointing at the above and yelling about epeen boasting. While a very satisfactory kill from a personal standpoint it just illustrates how nasty the Pilgrim can be with a bit of thought, patience, and frankly...pilot skill. It also shows why Vaga pilots should carry EWAR drones solo .
My Pilgrim fit:
[Pilgrim, Final] 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Dark Blood Adaptive Nano Plating Dark Blood Adaptive Nano Plating Medium Armor Repairer II Internal Force Field Array I
10MN Afterburner II Domination Warp Scrambler Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I Balmer Series Targeting Inhibitor I, Tracking Speed Disruption Medium Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Covert Ops Cloaking Device II Recon Probe Launcher I, Snoop Scanner Probe I Medium Unstable Power Fluctuator I Small Energy Neutralizer II
Anti-Thermic Pump I Anti-Kinetic Pump I
Valkyrie II x5 Hammerhead II x5 Hornet EC-300 x5 Warrior II x5
Requires Recon V and excellent support skills. Despite faction fittings the ship cost is roughly what my typical Rapier setup runs.
-Yes...it's slow. But 1-v-1 with cloak advantage this is generally irrelevant. And properly fit it has a beastly tank (both buffer and resist-wise) -Yes...success depends on correct target selection. Yet the same applies to my Rapier/Huginn and those ships solo rely on proper target selection too (trust me...I have beaten my head against enough Drakes and other passive tank missile spammers to know better ).
(cont)
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.18 10:11:00 -
[58]
reserved
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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waristina
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.18 11:45:00 -
[59]
agree.
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NvyoU
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Posted - 2008.07.18 11:54:00 -
[60]
Edited by: NvyoU on 18/07/2008 11:53:43 Signed
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Corduroy Rab
Xenocidal Uprising
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Posted - 2008.07.18 19:39:00 -
[61]
absolutely agree, not sure on the OPs ideas but this ship needs love.
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.18 21:28:00 -
[62]
The Pilgrim needs a boost.
This is due to many factors such as the fact that neuts are the only recon ewar that is size based. Also the fact that basically pvp fits require 4 basic modules. A warp disruptor, webifier, mwd, and a cap booster. The cap booster is basicaly the direct counter to amarr recon ew. You do not see everyone else running around with eccm fitted on all ships, do you?
I propose this boost be done in this fashion, as to keep all of the recon families in line.
Switch the drone hp and damage bonus with the neut range bonus that the curse recieves. This will in effect take away the "comabt" dps from the pilgrim which balances with all of the other force recon ships. Also the curse will actually be the "combat" recon now, as the pilgrim will no longer be able to dish out the same kind of damage. --
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RuleoftheBone
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.18 21:58:00 -
[63]
Edited by: RuleoftheBone on 18/07/2008 21:58:21
Originally by: Marcus Druallis The Pilgrim needs a boost.
This is due to many factors such as the fact that neuts are the only recon ewar that is size based.
Neuts are not EWAR. It is an offensive (and sometimes defensive) module.
TD's are EWAR.
p.s. I forgot to indicate support for *something* useful to happen to the Pilgrim. But making it a cloaked Curse is meh.
p.p.s. Hey Lavista Vista....whats going on in dis thread eh?
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
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Posted - 2008.07.18 23:39:00 -
[64]
I am supporting this topic but I do not like any of the solutions brought forth by the OP.
First of all, the pilgrim is lacking in CPU, lacking badly in CPU, I mean, extremely badly in CPU. I know cue the idiot who says "Recon V ftw" but yeah, I'm sure all the falcons and rapiers are terribly fit and they completely fail without Recon V. Ship needs more CPU, maybe more grid (been awhile since I've flown it) and probably a range bonus. I mean does it makes sense that the sentinel can neut farter than the pilgrim?
I like the idea of the pilgrim being a short range heavy tanked force recon, but the fact is that it can't really do that very well. Ever since the HP boost a long time ago, tanking your HAC/Recon has been pretty much fail. --
http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html |
EveTerrorist
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.07.19 04:02:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Originally by: Captator
Or as I stated, give the combat recons on the other races an extra bonus like the curse has over the pilgrim - bringing all back into line in the opposite way to that which you desire.
But the thing is that the other races recons already are 1 bonus ahead. Why? Because they use unsized ewar. Amarr use neuts. This means you waste 1 bonus to make it worth using because its medium sized only and you waste 1 dmg bonus because your high slots are filled with ewar.
This is where ccp totally messed it up. They gave Amarr recons drone dmg bonus because amarr recons use their highs for ewar. So to make up for the loss of mounted weapons they added drone damage. Problem is that combat recons should have 1 damage bonus extra over its force recons version. This is fail nr one, because curse and pilgrim have same dps approx eventhough curse should have one extra. Fail number two is that neut amount bonus is a fake bonus and should be inherent. Its not, so it wastes a bonus.
How to fix and how it should be?
Range AND amount should be in ONE bonus. Curse should get an additional damage bonus. (remember the drone damage bonus it has is only there to compensate for not being able to use its high slots to its full potential)
Changes added to all combat recons should be higher dmg % level on their bonuses so there is a bigger difference.
This would semi fix all recons and it would fix pilgrim. Fixed.
I love this idea personally.
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WishBlade
League of Disgruntled Fast Food Employees
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Posted - 2008.07.19 14:36:00 -
[66]
/,,, Signature |
Big Al
Stoat's Ultimate Carebear Adventure
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Posted - 2008.07.19 15:04:00 -
[67]
Scrap the cap warfare pilgrim...
Introduce the SMARTBOMBING Pilgrim
Bonus to fitting/cap use + range, maybe even damage. It will be like a non failboat bombing stealth bomber, or hearken back to the days of no recalibration delays with smartbombs on battleships.
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Lucai
Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.19 18:05:00 -
[68]
I agree that having no range bonus, the Amount bonus is pretty much useless.
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El Mauru
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.20 06:19:00 -
[69]
Agreed pilgrim needs a boost- imho give it another powergrid bonus to make fitting a mwd an option without gimping the tank or -1 lowslot, +1 mid
the ship itself doesn't need tampering with its boni- just a little more love with fitting (I have recon 5)
-
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Aneroi
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.20 10:57:00 -
[70]
but not any of the OP fixes
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.07.20 11:02:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Captator on 20/07/2008 11:02:17
Originally by: Aneroi but not any of the OP fixes
this ^ and pilgrims never used to fit MWDs, they aren't essential on this ship, just like they aren't on a falcon.
More fitting/more cap/better cap recharge/another low or midslot would be sweet
edit: failed at supporting....
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Athas Darksun
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.07.20 22:58:00 -
[72]
Had finally found a ship I liked..only to see it borked to hell and back.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.07.20 23:47:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Abrazzar on 20/07/2008 23:47:20 I support increasing the usefulness of the Pilgrim.
Maybe instead of it getting a Nos amount bonus it could get a bonus on the relative cap amounts percentages, so that it can suck cap even when it has more cap than the target ship. *shrugs* -------- Ideas for: Mining |
LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.07.21 15:10:00 -
[74]
There was a lot of ideas kicking around in this thread. I tried to sum it up in the submission template I'm writing.
First solution: The pilgrim is forced to fight inside web range(Only recon that has to). But it doesn't do that very well. Move it outside of web range like all other recon ships. - Increase the NOS and Neut range
OR
Second solution: If the Pilgrim is supposed to fight inside web-range, it doesn't tank well enough. It's forced to fit a cap-booster in order to keep up, due to the NOS-nerf. This could be fixed by: - Increase the PG in order to fit cap-booster. - Increase the NOS percentage amount so that it can also "tank" using cap-warfare.
This was what I could make out of it. What do you guys think? Is this how you want to suggest it to CCP?
If you have any other suggestions, I would like if you could use the above format, so that it can be added to the submission template. Deadline is friday.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.07.21 15:26:00 -
[75]
The pilgrim need a boost, yes.
If it was up to me, I'd just change it's role, scrap it's nos/neut bonus and replace it by a laser cap use bonus, and give it 4/5 gun slots. That would basically make it a zealot with drones and some EW, but without much laser dps (no damage/rof bonus, and only 5 lows, seriously limiting damage mods and tank). ------------------------------------------
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.21 15:29:00 -
[76]
Originally by: LaVista Vista There was a lot of ideas kicking around in this thread. I tried to sum it up in the submission template I'm writing.
First solution: The pilgrim is forced to fight inside web range(Only recon that has to). But it doesn't do that very well. Move it outside of web range like all other recon ships. - Increase the NOS and Neut range
This would be my choice of fixes for it.
Originally by: LaVista Vista
OR
Second solution: If the Pilgrim is supposed to fight inside web-range, it doesn't tank well enough. It's forced to fit a cap-booster in order to keep up, due to the NOS-nerf. This could be fixed by: - Increase the PG in order to fit cap-booster. - Increase the NOS percentage amount so that it can also "tank" using cap-warfare.
My fitting problem with the Pilgrim has always been CPU, not PG. But fitting a cap booster may require both, CPU and PG.
Originally by: LaVista Vista
This was what I could make out of it. What do you guys think? Is this how you want to suggest it to CCP?
If you have any other suggestions, I would like if you could use the above format, so that it can be added to the submission template. Deadline is friday.
I don't like the 2nd solution... I think the Pilgrim should mimic the combat recon in every way that the other races mimic theirs.
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LaVista Vista
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Posted - 2008.07.21 15:31:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
I don't like the 2nd solution... I think the Pilgrim should mimic the combat recon in every way that the other races mimic theirs.
I tend to agree with this. But the idea came up from this thread.
What do the rest of you guys think? Is the 1st solution the best one? Maybe I missed some other solution?
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.21 15:46:00 -
[78]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
I don't like the 2nd solution... I think the Pilgrim should mimic the combat recon in every way that the other races mimic theirs.
I tend to agree with this. But the idea came up from this thread.
What do the rest of you guys think? Is the 1st solution the best one? Maybe I missed some other solution?
Yep, #1 is the bestExtend the range on NOS/Neut as per the Curse, a touch more CPU. Pilgrim is then fixed.... -------------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Not it isn't, people should be encouraged to get out in low sec space, but never forced to do so.
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.21 16:19:00 -
[79]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
I don't like the 2nd solution... I think the Pilgrim should mimic the combat recon in every way that the other races mimic theirs.
I tend to agree with this. But the idea came up from this thread.
What do the rest of you guys think? Is the 1st solution the best one? Maybe I missed some other solution?
See post #58 for suggestions (and #57 for long-winded supporting details).
The Pilgrim is rather unique amoung the recons as noted. You would also do well to convo Verone...if anyone knows the Pilgrim...he does.
Looking forward to your response.
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way" General George Patton USA
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.07.21 23:24:00 -
[80]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Originally by: Christari Zuborov
I don't like the 2nd solution... I think the Pilgrim should mimic the combat recon in every way that the other races mimic theirs.
I tend to agree with this. But the idea came up from this thread.
What do the rest of you guys think? Is the 1st solution the best one? Maybe I missed some other solution?
It is not forced to fit a cap booster by any regard - that 2nd fix should be more focussed on its cap amount/recharge, so you don't need to fit a cap battery/injector to get some kind of sustainable cap warfare going on.
As it stands you can get it perma running 3 neuts, a disruptor a web and 2 TDs with a large cap battery and 2 cap power relays, or using CCC rigs, but it has no propulsion this way, if it had the large cap battery built in, you could choose to go sustainable cap warfare and AB route, or less sustainable mwd and cap warfare route.
Web range wasn't an issue either, perhaps the pilgrim could also do with some more armor (most fits involve a plate and rep or just a plate), so it can survive long enough to chew down a target.
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I SoStoned
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Posted - 2008.07.22 00:07:00 -
[81]
Yarrr, I agree. The pilgrim just seems 'bugged' as it looses the range bonus (which may have been logical in the NOS age, but is pointless now) without gaining another bonus to compensate.
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.22 00:30:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 22/07/2008 00:32:14 Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 22/07/2008 00:31:02
Originally by: Captator
Web range wasn't an issue either, perhaps the pilgrim could also do with some more armor (most fits involve a plate and rep or just a plate), so it can survive long enough to chew down a target.
Web range is EXACTLY one of the issues, did you even read the OP post?
The Pilgrim should reflect in the same manner as its Cousin, the Curse, in the same ways that ALL Force Recon vessels reflect their respective Combat Recon Cousins - simple as that.
No thought went into the effect the NOS Nerf would have on this ship, and it needs to be visited.
If you really feel that there should be some ship that breaks the mold, propose a new ship line, because we Pilgrim owners feel that it should reflect in like manner to the already established bar of Force Recon ships.
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Abrazzar
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Posted - 2008.07.22 00:55:00 -
[83]
-20% effective capacitor for calculations of Energy Vampire drain amounts per level. That would effectively remove the nos nerf from the Pilgrim at lvl 5 (unless I completely fail at grasping the nos functionality, but you get my point).
Just to add ideas that are not 'move highslots to low for more cargo expanders' or 'remove nos bonus for astrometrics' -------- Ideas for: Mining Ships |
Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.07.22 08:43:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Christari Zuborov Web range is EXACTLY one of the issues, did you even read the OP post?
The Pilgrim should reflect in the same manner as its Cousin, the Curse, in the same ways that ALL Force Recon vessels reflect their respective Combat Recon Cousins - simple as that.
No thought went into the effect the NOS Nerf would have on this ship, and it needs to be visited.
If you really feel that there should be some ship that breaks the mold, propose a new ship line, because we Pilgrim owners feel that it should reflect in like manner to the already established bar of Force Recon ships.
Did you even read my post? Webrange is not an issue to the way the pilgrim fights, or it wouldn't be if you could actually run multiple neuts for a reasonable time (see earlier post) without a cap booster or lots of cap mods.
I am a pilgrim owner, in fact I am recon 5, TD skilled, max cap skilled pilgrim owner, and I don't know how long you have been a pilgrim owner, but I have for over a year, and it worked fine when before nos nerf INSIDE webrange (with the same tank I have on it now incidentally - plate + single rep).
The problem is that you cannot maintain your cap warfare and run some kind of local repair worth anything without using an injector or lots of cap mods, which is why I proposed building a large cap battery into the ship, which would give you enough cap to run an effective analogue to pre nos-nerf pilgrims.
Alternatively another midslot and the grid/cpu to fit a large cap battery in with an AB, or a medium injector with an mwd, and some more cargo space for charges would be nice.
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Inertial
The Python Cartel
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Posted - 2008.07.22 11:31:00 -
[85]
Originally by: LaVista Vista There was a lot of ideas kicking around in this thread. I tried to sum it up in the submission template I'm writing.
First solution: The pilgrim is forced to fight inside web range(Only recon that has to). But it doesn't do that very well. Move it outside of web range like all other recon ships. - Increase the NOS and Neut range
OR
Second solution: If the Pilgrim is supposed to fight inside web-range, it doesn't tank well enough. It's forced to fit a cap-booster in order to keep up, due to the NOS-nerf. This could be fixed by: - Increase the PG in order to fit cap-booster. - Increase the NOS percentage amount so that it can also "tank" using cap-warfare.
This was what I could make out of it. What do you guys think? Is this how you want to suggest it to CCP?
If you have any other suggestions, I would like if you could use the above format, so that it can be added to the submission template. Deadline is friday.
The first option is not a option at all. It would completely eliminate the identity the Pilgrim has, and make it a useless nano ship, which btw CCP has already expressed its interest in nerfing.
The second option is the best of those two, but it still wouldn't help unless you change the way NOSs work, because you can't run them dry with a NOS, and when they have less cap than you, you stop draining anyways.
I would rather remove the TD bonus and add a +5% bonus to armour resistance. Altough this would make it a useless TD boat, it would make it much more tanky, or just add some built in resistances to its armour. |
Original Copy
Forge Regional Security
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Posted - 2008.07.22 12:09:00 -
[86]
Here's a fix that will remedy the Pilgrim perfectly.
Give it the same bonus to fitting large NOS/Neuts that logistics currently enjoy to fit large remote reps/shield/energy transfer (i.e. 80-90% reduction in CPU/PG reqs for large Nos/Neut). Increase cap and regen by 20%.
This will give Pilgrims more range (out to 25km w/o resorting to faction) without modifying their current range bonuses, and make them deadly in close range where they're (apparently) designed to fight.
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Bilaz
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.07.22 13:36:00 -
[87]
totally agree - pigrim needs some love - of all recons its most useless now.
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.22 17:55:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Christari Zuborov on 22/07/2008 17:56:36
Originally by: Captator
Did you even read my post? Webrange is not an issue to the way the pilgrim fights, or it wouldn't be if you could actually run multiple neuts for a reasonable time (see earlier post) without a cap booster or lots of cap mods.
Yes, I read your post and disagreed with it. And as stated by OP, it is the only Force Recon ship to fight at the edge of webs. It's also the only Force Recon ship to not carry all the bonuses, albeit reduced, than their cousin Combat Recons.
Quote:
I am a pilgrim owner, in fact I am recon 5, TD skilled, max cap skilled pilgrim owner, and I don't know how long you have been a pilgrim owner, but I have for over a year, and it worked fine when before nos nerf INSIDE webrange (with the same tank I have on it now incidentally - plate + single rep).
Your setup = fail. Over a year ago was a different age in combat, and if you propose changes to fit within that construct, it would be just as worthless as it is now. Simply give it the same bonuses, at the established bar, of the already existing Force Recon ships. It has utility, uniqueness, and logic, if carried through at that level - but it wouldn't be a better alternative to the Curse.
Quote:
The problem is that you cannot maintain your cap warfare and run some kind of local repair worth anything without using an injector or lots of cap mods, which is why I proposed building a large cap battery into the ship, which would give you enough cap to run an effective analogue to pre nos-nerf pilgrims.
Alternatively another midslot and the grid/cpu to fit a large cap battery in with an AB, or a medium injector with an mwd, and some more cargo space for charges would be nice.
A change to it's bonuses to reflect that of it's cousin would be enough to use, but not enough to make it a better alternative to the Curse. Your proposal restricts it to use in a manner that no other Force Recon has to endure, and puts it at much higher risk as well.
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.07.22 19:04:00 -
[89]
Quote: Yes, I read your post and disagreed with it. And as stated by OP, it is the only Force Recon ship to fight at the edge of webs. It's also the only Force Recon ship to not carry all the bonuses, albeit reduced, than their cousin Combat Recons.
Why did you ask if I had read the OP then? You do know that flying it at the edge of web range is not the only and often not the most effective way of flying it?
Quote: Your setup = fail. Over a year ago was a different age in combat, and if you propose changes to fit within that construct, it would be just as worthless as it is now. Simply give it the same bonuses, at the established bar, of the already existing Force Recon ships. It has utility, uniqueness, and logic, if carried through at that level - but it wouldn't be a better alternative to the Curse.
My proposed changes restore it to its former combat effectiveness (and the one about extra mid yadda yadda would actually allow it to be used as it was once, and give it new utility it doesn't have at the moment). With a range bonus it would become what the rapier is to the huginn, nearly identical ship, trade dps for cloak.
My proposal keeps it in the spirit it was originally designed, and see above for what you call 'different'. I propose a slight nudge to the current status quo, to restore the ship to what it was, you propose drastically changing it, and thus the way it operates and is flown.
The cloak allows you to pick targets, and maybe you have to put a bit more thought in before decloaking on something, rather than just, 'oh well if it all goes pearshaped, I can just rocket off at high speed'.
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Christari Zuborov
Amarr Ore Mongers Black Hand.
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Posted - 2008.07.23 01:07:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Captator My proposed changes restore it to its former combat effectiveness (and the one about extra mid yadda yadda would actually allow it to be used as it was once, and give it new utility it doesn't have at the moment). With a range bonus it would become what the rapier is to the huginn, nearly identical ship, trade dps for cloak.
My proposal keeps it in the spirit it was originally designed, and see above for what you call 'different'. I propose a slight nudge to the current status quo, to restore the ship to what it was, you propose drastically changing it, and thus the way it operates and is flown.
The cloak allows you to pick targets, and maybe you have to put a bit more thought in before decloaking on something, rather than just, 'oh well if it all goes pearshaped, I can just rocket off at high speed'.
Your proposal pidgeon-holds it into this style of play, whereas the OP proposal gives you flexibility, but it wouldn't better than the Curse.
You'd also continue to pidgeon-hold it as the sole Force Recon that can do nothing once pinned down by an interceptor, because it's outside of weapon range - no other Force Recon suffers from the same problems. As pitiful as the Arazu and Lechesne are, even they could still force an interceptor to orbit within web range if the interceptor pushed to continue to warp disrupt them.
Options based upon fit, not your scenario of, "Here's a ship and this is the sole way to fit it, just don't uncloak and you'll do just fine!"
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Lisa Star
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Posted - 2008.07.29 04:07:00 -
[91]
/bump, can we get an update?
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Rhamnousia
Caldari Pelennor Swarm Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.07.29 06:48:00 -
[92]
I didn't get the chance to fly much of recons till lately. I've been putting that off for too long and one day, decided it was time.
But onto the things that matter, I flew both arazu and lachesis, they are very similar boats, but require a tad different play style because of the different slot layouts when you go about fitting a boat. The arazu have to look at spare CPU to fit the cloak, while lachesis have to conserve PG for a plate (i fly plated lachesis, sue me).
same goes with curse and pilgrim, they are somewhat similar boats, but two different play styles are required. curse, most ppl just throw overdrive injector, nanofiber and polycarbon on if they can afford them, whizz around the field while neuting the target down for the other nano ships to do the damage. while with the pilgrim, more adept as solo hunting and shadowing (cloaking in a hostile system to prevent enemy from ratting/mining), it cant nano well because of the lack of range.
people are saying that the pilgrim needs some love is because they can't nano it. cant hop in on it go get some kills and get away with it.
im saying the pilgrim is fine. ok... well, except the tracking disruption part.
if you want to nano the pilgrim, buy corpum a-type medium nos and neut (isn't that what the Devs implying? spend a load of isk to get the same result is 'imbalance'?), they got the range of 19km. oh, and you'll be faster than a nanocurse coz of the 5th lowslot!
leave the pilgrim ALONE. Do something about the script! ---------------------- What happens in Pelennor stays in Pelennor.
Forever Pelennor |
Garia666
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core
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Posted - 2008.07.29 07:01:00 -
[93]
how do you get teh thumbs up? www.garia.net |
Stabby McStabbins
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Posted - 2008.07.29 15:39:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Rhamnousia I didn't get the chance to fly much of recons till lately. I've been putting that off for too long and one day, decided it was time.
But onto the things that matter, I flew both arazu and lachesis, they are very similar boats, but require a tad different play style because of the different slot layouts when you go about fitting a boat. The arazu have to look at spare CPU to fit the cloak, while lachesis have to conserve PG for a plate (i fly plated lachesis, sue me).
same goes with curse and pilgrim, they are somewhat similar boats, but two different play styles are required. curse, most ppl just throw overdrive injector, nanofiber and polycarbon on if they can afford them, whizz around the field while neuting the target down for the other nano ships to do the damage. while with the pilgrim, more adept as solo hunting and shadowing (cloaking in a hostile system to prevent enemy from ratting/mining), it cant nano well because of the lack of range.
people are saying that the pilgrim needs some love is because they can't nano it. cant hop in on it go get some kills and get away with it.
im saying the pilgrim is fine. ok... well, except the tracking disruption part.
if you want to nano the pilgrim, buy corpum a-type medium nos and neut (isn't that what the Devs implying? spend a load of isk to get the same result is 'imbalance'?), they got the range of 19km. oh, and you'll be faster than a nanocurse coz of the 5th lowslot!
leave the pilgrim ALONE. Do something about the script!
Obviously you have never flown the Pilgrim. You are missing the point completely. All other Recon ships have similar range bonuses BUT the Pilgrim. Sure you can spend extra isk to put dead space NOS on them... but your Neuts will won't be able to reach. Since NOS was nerfed your post is probably one of the most stupid posts that I have seen. I personally love the idea of having the range/amt bonus as one. If not that then I would love to see something added to the Pilgrims tank since it is supposed to fight in web range unlike ANY other recon.
Stabby McStabbins
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Lorzion
Minmatar Mafia
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Posted - 2008.07.29 15:51:00 -
[95]
i lol at pilgrams.....fix em please!
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Kethry Avenger
Krell-Korp
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Posted - 2008.07.29 16:36:00 -
[96]
Pilgrim needs some love for sure.
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Mysa
Mortis Angelus The Church.
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Posted - 2008.07.29 17:14:00 -
[97]
Originally by: RuleoftheBone The solution?. As you mention in one of your options beefing up the armor tank is a possibility that I could support.
As an alternative (and my preference) beefing up the capacitor warfare aspect is more inline with this unique close-range ship. At the present time the only viable way I can see to fly this ship is with an injector. And forget using an MWD...that utterly gimps the Pilgrim unless you happen to be one of those clever folks fitting lasers (although I have not seen many do that with any degree of success or usefulness).
Something along the lines of the Sacriledge cap-use bonus would suit the Pilgrim perfectly enabling options like dropping the injector, maybe fitting/using an MWD, stronger dual rep options, and so forth. Plus more room for loot .
But turning the Pilgrim into yet another "must-go-faster" winboat would-in my opinion-ruin the nature of the ship. I enjoy flying speed-fits and love my polycarb'd perma-running MWD/Neut/2xTD Curse...but I also enjoy a patient relaxed stalk ending in "the death of a thousand cuts" up-close-and-personal fight that even the victim can appreciate .
So..in closing I will agree the Pilgrim can use a boost...but the NOS/Neut range extension is not the answer.
**EDIT**I am honestly not sure why any of us bother posting anything in these threads given the apparent lack of interest displayed by the CSM (outside thier own generally crap agenda's) and CCP's lack of direct feedback.
It would be nice to be proved wrong on both accounts....but I am not holding my breath.
I like the cap bonus idea, keeps the pilgrim in the shape it is and not changing the roles it has as a sneek up fighter, good call mate.
/Signed
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Andreya
Direct Intent
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Posted - 2008.08.05 22:42:00 -
[98]
agreed. pilgrim should have the range bonus
not a drone bonus tho (yesi can fly pilgrim:P) _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Navigator ([email protected]) |
Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.08.05 22:57:00 -
[99]
Edited by: Aleus Stygian on 05/08/2008 22:59:05 I don't care what people say. The Pilgrim is, and should be, a sneak attacker meant to operate within 10 km range. As it is today, it has not only lost 200 armor hp recently, for no evident reason, and possesses unreasonably few slots compared to HACs, but it also features an EWAR ability that people are very conflicted and hesitant toward using. It has not a single solo advantage except the cloak over its faster, more well-armored and superior-ranged sibling, the Curse. And that cloak only allows it to sneak up on T1 noob pilots, miners or unlucky ratters, like a scavenger. Because no sensible Pilgrim pilot will ever engage HACs or Battlecruisers or Battleships up close in solo combat, even though these ships could arguably be called its main prey. Making it a greatly frowned upon and despised ship. And in fleet combat, it lacks so much as an active role. Furthermore, it has a pointed weakness against both smartbombs and missiles.
Whatever can be done to strengthen the Pilgrim, which in my mind is preferably to give it more defense, especially against missiles, and more firepower, though preferably not from having to resort to Heavy Drones, should be done.
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White Ronin
Gallente Screenout
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Posted - 2008.08.06 14:25:00 -
[100]
I understand that many like the nos/nuet increase but would a drone and ship bonus work well enough? A reduction in the sig radius of both the ship and the drones would make the ship a lot better and increase the tank without changing the basic function of the ship. The pilgram would take less damage and would be harder to target, making it and its drones more effective. I understand that many think the Nos/Nuet is the way to go but if they introduce any modules down the line that are strong on normal ships then the pilgram will make them unbalanced and you risk goin to bat with the nerf stick again, something I believe most would like to avoid. But change the basic damage it takes and adding to the longevity of the drones would make it very much more effective. Just my opinion though. --------------------------------------------- "There have always been ghosts in the machine . . . random segments of code that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. " |
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Gluecksbaerchi
Natural Selectors
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Posted - 2008.08.06 14:49:00 -
[101]
pilgrim needs a range bonus, I agree.
Also, I can get a rapier to 200dps, a 150dps drone damage bonus is good enough. You can actually leave that one alone and just give the pilgi the range bonus it (tbh) needs to get inline with the rest of the recons...
Recruiting peeps \o/ |
Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.08.07 01:38:00 -
[102]
Originally by: White Ronin I understand that many like the nos/nuet increase but would a drone and ship bonus work well enough? A reduction in the sig radius of both the ship and the drones would make the ship a lot better and increase the tank without changing the basic function of the ship. The pilgram would take less damage and would be harder to target, making it and its drones more effective. I understand that many think the Nos/Nuet is the way to go but if they introduce any modules down the line that are strong on normal ships then the pilgram will make them unbalanced and you risk goin to bat with the nerf stick again, something I believe most would like to avoid. But change the basic damage it takes and adding to the longevity of the drones would make it very much more effective. Just my opinion though.
And it's a good opinion, actually. Certainly considering that as a covert vessel, and using tracking disruptors, you can argue that the Pilgrim shouldn't have too much of a signature in the first place.
However, the fact that its hp is a little on the low side compared to the other Recons as is, and that it has such limited range because it should have higher firepower. What's the point of a sneak attacker if there's no punch to the attack? Not everyone should have to resort to HACs and Battlecruisers, or clumps of frigates, to take down those same ships and support vessels, because you simply might not have the time or opportunity. And since HACs seem to be losing even more ability to fight with the speed patch, it would be good to have some alternative...
Stealth Bombers aren't the U-boat, 'glass cannon' attackers in this game, really. Because they can't warp unseen. Force Recons are, and should have some attack power for this purpose.
Then again, that they don't have too much of a chance as is can also be blamed somewhat on Local channel...
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Phaedruss
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Posted - 2008.08.07 03:23:00 -
[103]
Pilgrim is a difficult ship to fix without completely redesigning it unfortunately.
While a range bonus on the NOS/Neuts would certainly put it inline with the other recons, make it a bit more flexible, and go a long way toward directly and indirectly solving the worst of it's problems, I'm against radical nerfs/buffs of any kind in this game, and to give it the range bonus would also require taking something away to keep it balanced...and the Pilgrim doesn't have much it can afford to give- it's drone bonus and NOS amount bonus are perhaps too high a price to pay.
Given it's inherent flaws i.e. short range, limited usefulness of it's EW and cap/grid issues which all tie into each other in one way or another though, I believe the Pilgrim can be given some buff without taking anything from it, and the subtle approach with a few percent here and there is always the best way to change things. More cap and grid to improve it's tank and ability to use it's bonused high slot systems are commonly expressed ideas which would certainly improve the ship and are not over the top, as would the sig radius/drone durability idea. I think these types of ideas are the ones we should be supporting and which would have the most chance of being implemented.
CCP, acknowledge the problems with the Pilgrim. It's suffered a lot of damage because of your wild sledghammer nerfs in the past, and this ship never deserved any of them.
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White Ronin
Gallente Screenout
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Posted - 2008.08.08 01:00:00 -
[104]
A slight improvement in many stats and abilities would be much better then boosting one ability over the top to get this ship to work. And only boosting one ability/stat really ruins the versatility of the ship overall by making it so that you must use the boosted stat or be gimped. An overall general boost to cpu, pg, sig radius of the ship and its drones or any combination of the ideas presented all over the forums would open up different fitting options and make the ship viable and versatile. --------------------------------------------- "There have always been ghosts in the machine . . . random segments of code that have grouped together to form unexpected protocols. " |
Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.08.08 02:22:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Phaedruss Pilgrim is a difficult ship to fix without completely redesigning it unfortunately.
Look at my thread please, and then tell me what you think.
Personally, I think that they need to give both the Force Recons and the HACs a considerable kick in the ass boost, until they have a shot at going up against and killing Battlecruisers, so that the price and training time for them is actually warranted.
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Koyama Ise
Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
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Posted - 2008.08.08 08:49:00 -
[106]
I like the pilgrim but the in web range is somewhat unnerving. Without a drone bonus and adding a range bonus to Neut/Nos it would allow the pilgrim to deal more damage as it's using heavy drones but have less variety as it only has a 150m^3 drone bay it allows the Pilgrim to use sentries meaning it can ewar, damage and cap warfare a target at range. I think it would change pilgrim setups so I'm not exactly sure of the idea.
------ Cause it can't be quoted enough.
Originally by: Damned Force Something like: Nanoships need a nerf but only the 10km/s+ ships. Nano HACs to slowboating Battleships wil be ****ed.
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Aleus Stygian
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Posted - 2008.08.08 22:56:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Koyama Ise I like the pilgrim but the in web range is somewhat unnerving. Without a drone bonus and adding a range bonus to Neut/Nos it would allow the pilgrim to deal more damage as it's using heavy drones but have less variety as it only has a 150m^3 drone bay it allows the Pilgrim to use sentries meaning it can ewar, damage and cap warfare a target at range. I think it would change pilgrim setups so I'm not exactly sure of the idea.
Not all of us think that heavy drones are such a good idea, what with them being slower and more easily targeted and knocked out...
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.08.09 01:01:00 -
[108]
Most of the complaints stem from the idea that the pilgrim has to go into web range to attack.
Following the speed nerf, web range is no longer death. Any cruiser sized vessel can out-track battleship turrets and many cruiser turrets on sisi, with moderate ease. A boat that can approach using a covert ops cloak can use an afterburner, which makes that damage avoidance even better. A boat that can tracking disrupt, can do that EVEN better.
Once getting under your opponents tracking, your only threats are neuts, missiles, and drones. The pilgrim has never been good at attacking missile boats, and has a cap warfare advantage so being neuted is less of a problem (hint, if you think you are going to face heavy neuts, and you have a massive NOs bonus, then nos work almost as good as pre-nos-nerf). If it can tank 5 unbonused drones long enough to kill 1-3 of them , with its 5 lowslots, it can be an effective solo prowler again.
My advice is, give it some minor HP boosts as its the "tankiest" recon and leave as it is. Post-patch it will be relatively boosted in quite a significant way. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
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