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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1032
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Posted - 2012.03.13 09:29:00 -
[361] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:Seeing as plex is traded in the thousands per month roughly 14k to 15k per month in the months associated with the last quarter on the graph above, you cannot expect me to believe that is all from incursion runners?
The number of PLEX traded in in the order of 14k per month, certainly. The number of PLEX introduced into the game and the number of PLEX sunk out of the game will be significantly less than that number. Buy low, sell high: if you examine the market by selling PLEX to buy orders and buying PLEX from sell orders, you will determine in short order who is in the market. It would surprise me to find that more than half of PLEX trades are direct from PLEX seller to PLEX user. I expect the average velocity of PLEX is about 1.7 (and not less than 1.4).
There are around 1-2000 Incursion participants, some of whom will be buying PLEX for multiple accounts. Out of the folks I know, about two thirds are paying for more than one account, and of those most have more than two. So make of that what you will: 1700 incursion participants is already more than 10% of the PLEX trade market, even if only 2/3 of that number was actually PLEXing their account. Each of those participants is likely to be funding multiple accounts with PLEX. I expect that a quite significant portion of the PLEX-buying market will be Incursion-funded accounts with money to burn. My estimate is about 3000 accounts maintained with PLEX substantially paid for with Incursion ISK. No, I don't have stats because I don't have access to the database, and I have asked CCP Diagoras for those figures (though curiously enough, they haven't been provided, who'd have thunk? I'm working on Fermi Estimates based on numbers I do know.
Of the people I run Incursions with, about half are folks either running with their main in a null sec alliance, or running an alt that I know is associated with a null sec alliance character. That is to say that at least half of the people I'm running incursions with are blue or red flagged based on the last standings list I have recorded from my time in null sec.
You have no support for your numbers at all: how many pilots are ratting in null sec? What is the spread of incomes between those pilots? How many of them extend their game time with PLEX.
I was watching PLEX prices closely and noticed the very rapid drop when the Incursion interdiction started, along with the very rapid rise when the interdiction fizzled. Noone had to give up their subscription since the interdiction was so short-lived, but they weren't buying PLEX with the ISK they didn't have.
So people can either take your Incursion-supporting propaganda, or my first-person perspective on the matter. I run Incursions. I run missions. I mine. I pay for a number of accounts with PLEX. My "handful of friends" is roughly 200 pilots in my extended social circles. Some folks only run Incursions to "top up" their PLEX fund. Most PLEX buyers will buy a PLEX when push comes to shove, most have at least one buy order up at optimistic prices (so they don't miss out on a good deal), and a number have multiple PLEX in trade at any time.
The take-home message here: PLEX are generally sold to buy orders in the first instance, with users buying from sell orders. There are approximately 3000 Incursion-funded accounts in the PLEX market. Incursion-funded accounts thus consume about 1/5-1/3 of the PLEX on the market (where Incursion-funded means that more than 100M per PLEX was raised by running Incursions, since the rest is easy to raise with datacores).
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
335
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Posted - 2012.03.13 09:52:00 -
[362] - Quote
El 1974 wrote:Doubling the net increase in the money supply sounds like a good recipe for hyperinflation.
Eve can not go into a hyperinflation event like what can happen in the real world. I will explain it if anyone cares to read my ramblings, but the tl;dr version is this: Hyperinflation requires an exponential growth of the money supply. In Eve, barring any serious screw ups by CCP, growth of the money supply follows a path of exponential decay never reaching zero. |
Sade Onyx
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2012.03.13 09:58:00 -
[363] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally.
Finally, someone who knows what they are talking about.
Since Darius made Incursions popular with his childish fuss and drama, I've been running them, and its nonsense, you make just as much if not more running lvl 4's.
But Incursions are more fun and while some adjustments are needed, "incursions cause inflation" was quite obviously a "vote Darius for CSM" politically motivated scandal.
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Snatcha Pursia
Hedion University Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.03.13 09:59:00 -
[364] - Quote
Remove all bots. Especially trade ones, they are messing with my 0.1 skills |
Grukni
Shimai of New Eden
47
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Posted - 2012.03.13 10:14:00 -
[365] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:We're looking at the economy constantly and looking at our options.
One of the fundamental issues we have is that we're making everyone "better" at making money, so the effect kind of snowballs. Right now we're considering everything form increasing taxes to lowering bounties across the board.
So, what's the biggest ingame isk faucet? I though it was currently incursions. Lvl4 missions seem too low payed. W-space Sleepers maybe? |
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1032
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Posted - 2012.03.13 10:22:00 -
[366] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Fun Facts:
In the month of Feb:
~8.6T ISK in Incursion Payouts
~4.8T in Mission Rewards + Mission Bonuses ~32T in NPC bounty
So of the combined Incursion/Missions/Ratting/etc ISK faucet
~81% comes from non-Incursion activity
^ For those who are short on time and can't scan through 17 pages of forum thread before commenting |
Grumpy Owly
320
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Posted - 2012.03.13 10:25:00 -
[367] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:Seeing as plex is traded in the thousands per month roughly 14k to 15k per month in the months associated with the last quarter on the graph above, you cannot expect me to believe that is all from incursion runners? assumes trading in plex wont effect pricing, some assumed estimated stats based on freinds, recognises that incursion runners are not attributable as the main purchases of plex, thinks I need to support any claims I'm making when It is she who is making the original claims (yet easily argued against by looking at isk faucet contributions to suggest an obvious contra argument especially as other non-incursion mission related activities contribute 81% of the associated faucets), believes or is ignorant that isk transference from faucets to other players through the economy cannot end up in a plex purchase, Now associates a significant isk issue with plex purchases attributable from datacores and not just incursions.
Thankyou for confirming that Plex purchases are not attributable to incursions as being the main potential contributor to price changes.
Interesting that you quote 1/5, which associates well with the approximate 20% attributable from the apparent ISK apportionments as faucets. Bounty Hunting for CSM 7
Stop EvE Apathy |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
335
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Posted - 2012.03.13 10:34:00 -
[368] - Quote
Grukni wrote: So, what's the biggest ingame isk faucet? I though it was currently incursions. Lvl4 missions seem too low payed. W-space Sleepers maybe?
According to Soundwave quote, on page 4 I think, bounties. I would assume that includes bounties in missions and anoms as well, so keep that in mind when you attempt to visualize sets. |
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
96
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Posted - 2012.03.13 11:08:00 -
[369] - Quote
Makes sense on so many levels why Null sec anoms make more ISK.
- More of them - They drop loot, useable and reproc - You don't need to transit up to 30 jumps to find them - You can fit and rig and meta 4 fit PvE Raven for under 25 mill right now. As much as it's all about Inflation, Arbalest Cruise Launchers go for 120K In Jita. There are anough of them there, you could literally fit a 1000 man Raven fleet meta 4 for 750 mill ISK. X-Large C5, same thing, Large F-S9 extenders, same. It's not an e-peen fit but if you want a replaceable PvE boat that's cheap, it will work for the null content. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg-_HeVNYOk
Save Derpy! |
TriadSte
3rd Division
52
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Posted - 2012.03.13 11:24:00 -
[370] - Quote
What makes me laugh is all this over incursions. The fact remains that only a TINY TINY TIIIIIIIIIINY percentage of players run these.
They are open to everyone to do so why the moaning?
How does effect you on a single player basis? Do you find yourselves logging on and say oh damn that's gone up a few isk...damn those incursions? No you dont and if you do.....just rofl!!
I will talk about tech moons. Is that not the biggest isk sink in the game? The easiest thing on earth to get technetium and even now the cost is crazy. Alliances have tens of billions of isk of the stuff at there for a rainy day, rainy day meaning when they have some titans wiped out and they need replacing.
Should alliances be allowed to farm Technetium like this making Titans so easily attainable? These things are meant to be the biggest most expensive ship in the game. Im sure when CCP introduced them they didn't think that there would be tens and tens of these fielded at once. That an alliance would have to literally bust balls for 1 of these things...
Yet here we are and Titans are.....nothing?
Are CCP going to nerf that process? Nope....
So why hit on the guys running incursions? I think the above is so far far beyond incorrect on a game level it needs stopping.
So what If people are running incursions? Stop bitching and do some yourself.
In truth It's CCPs fault for making missions for empire runners boring as boring gets. |
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Mara Rinn
Cosmic Industrial Complex Cosmic Consortium
1033
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Posted - 2012.03.13 11:43:00 -
[371] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:Claims that the only people buying PLEX are those gaining ISK through faucets
Interesting claim you make there. Do you have any evidence to support your claim that no miners, industrialists or traders extend their subscription using PLEX?
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Dhakgar
Next Gen Technology Next Generation Alliance
0
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Posted - 2012.03.13 11:44:00 -
[372] - Quote
I'm just posting, only read up to page 6.
I'm a new incursion runner, and I'll admit, the are WAY WAY too good for generating isk. You can ***** and moan at me for posting this all you want, but I started running isk a week ago and have earned well over 2billion isk--- with a single character. You may say "oh but running level 4's is the same and so is ratting".... I have just a bit over 4million SP. Maybe 2million of that is in skills useful to incursions.
Incursions are a huge problem, when 5% of the playerbase can make 19% of the money from something, there's a problem.
Nerf Hi-sec Incursions(this coming from a hi-sec incursioner) |
Grumpy Owly
320
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Posted - 2012.03.13 11:47:00 -
[373] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Grumpy Owly wrote:Claims that the only people buying PLEX are those gaining ISK through faucets Interesting claim you make there. Do you have any evidence to support your claim that no miners, industrialists or traders extend their subscription using PLEX?
Where did I claim that?
Where do industrial players get their money from?
Hence why I suggested that transferance of isk in the economy can end up with a plex purchase as mentioned above.
Bounty Hunting for CSM 7
Stop EvE Apathy |
Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
34
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Posted - 2012.03.13 12:01:00 -
[374] - Quote
What about former miners and industrialists that have more or less completely abandoned their professions in exchange for easy Incursion isk?
Noone ever seems to mention them.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
John Maynard Keynes
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2012.03.13 12:11:00 -
[375] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Tippia wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally. You're going to have to elaborate on that one a bit. Kile Kitmoore wrote:Finally, NOW can we please stop the nerf Incursion threads! Nope. Quote:As for the inflation, you wanted a mining buff here it is! Trit selling at 5 ISK a pop! Nice! Inflation is not a mining buff since it doesn't mean mining is more worth-while. Someone already posted the numbers, the majority of isk in EVE comes off bounties and if anything, we should be reviewing the current bounties on battleship NPCs.
Oh please, we already had this "nerf the anos in null space" kind of thing. You know too well how it worked out. The biggest issue with incursions is not the inflation (though 20% of global isk income is not as trivial as you suggest), it is the risk reward problem they create. They should be a low sec only feature! Just like sleepers are a WH only feature with great risks! But instead of removing incursions from high sec you suggest to **** up the risk reward ratio even further by nerfing ano bounties so that null becomes a wasteland again because everyone goes to high sec in order to farm incursions. |
gfldex
373
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Posted - 2012.03.13 13:02:00 -
[376] - Quote
Grukni wrote:So, what's the biggest ingame isk faucet?
bots
The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson |
Myka Hunt
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.03.13 13:10:00 -
[377] - Quote
Mara Rinn wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Fun Facts:
In the month of Feb:
~8.6T ISK in Incursion Payouts
~4.8T in Mission Rewards + Mission Bonuses ~32T in NPC bounty
So of the combined Incursion/Missions/Ratting/etc ISK faucet
~81% comes from non-Incursion activity ^ For those who are short on time and can't scan through 17 pages of forum thread before commenting
~4.8T in Mission Rewards + Mission Bonuses ~32T in NPC bounty
Rabble rabble nerf hisec rabble rabble.
Nice to see some actual figures, not remotely surprised that the current mega-inflation is a result of Nullsec bounties - i.e Sov Anoms.
'Course, you can't nerf those anoms cause all the nullbears will crycrycry... |
Cass Lie
State War Academy Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2012.03.13 13:54:00 -
[378] - Quote
Would be interesting to see how much of the (mineral) inflation has to do with the relatively recent political upheaval in the drone regions, eg. it would be nice to see whether there was a drop in the drone goo being imported to jita and how it correlates to mineral prices and in extension to goods prices. It seems to me non-mineral related goods (implants, rigs, datacores, etc.) may not be experiencing such a harsh inflation, or at least are catching up very slowly. Plex is a different issue entirely. |
Grumpy Owly
322
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Posted - 2012.03.13 14:00:00 -
[379] - Quote
Cass Lie wrote:Would be interesting to see how much of the (mineral) inflation has to do with the relatively recent political upheaval in the drone regions, eg. it would be nice to see whether there was a drop in the drone goo being imported to jita and how it correlates to mineral prices and in extension to goods prices. It seems to me non-mineral related goods (implants, rigs, datacores, etc.) may not be experiencing such a harsh inflation, or at least are catching up very slowly. Plex is a different issue entirely.
I beleive somone already drew the correlation you are indicating:
http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/02/abcs.html Bounty Hunting for CSM 7
Stop EvE Apathy |
Sade Onyx
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
15
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Posted - 2012.03.13 15:14:00 -
[380] - Quote
Pinky Feldman wrote:What about former miners and industrialists that have more or less completely abandoned their professions in exchange for easy Incursion isk
Noone ever seems to mention them.
Because its not "easy" at all
Try it.. go to an incursion site yourself and see how "easy" it is to get into a fleet
And if your a Miner / Indst. Then there isnt much chance you'll be able field a 1bn isk ship. |
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kla samon
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
15
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Posted - 2012.03.13 15:39:00 -
[381] - Quote
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:Azure Moonlight wrote:If currently 16% of all the ISK from all activities available in Eve comes from Incursions, I cant see how anyone can claim that THIS is not an issue. Or are 16% of all players (not characters, mind you) involved in Incursion running? I guess not.
Learn math. Before incursion. per 1bil isk injected per month 990 mil was sinked. inflation 1% monthly - data from old days After incursions per 1.190b isk injected per month 990 mil sinked + cost for lp concord store( how much is actually that i dont know, dont have data ), lets assume its 60mil per 1.190bil That means after incursion inflation has risen from 1% up to 8,5% monthly You still dont see the problem ??? It is very rough estimate but the point is it is 16% that wasn't there before, it is huge enough number to screw things up.
this |
Cass Lie
State War Academy Caldari State
23
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Posted - 2012.03.13 15:48:00 -
[382] - Quote
Grumpy Owly wrote:Cass Lie wrote:Would be interesting to see how much of the (mineral) inflation has to do with the relatively recent political upheaval in the drone regions, eg. it would be nice to see whether there was a drop in the drone goo being imported to jita and how it correlates to mineral prices and in extension to goods prices. It seems to me non-mineral related goods (implants, rigs, datacores, etc.) may not be experiencing such a harsh inflation, or at least are catching up very slowly. Plex is a different issue entirely. I beleive somone already drew the correlation you are indicating: http://jestertrek.blogspot.com/2012/02/abcs.html
Thanks, I somehow missed that one. Still no hard data though, but the conclusion seems logical. There probably are "issues" on both sides of the supply/demand dynamic. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
335
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Posted - 2012.03.13 15:54:00 -
[383] - Quote
Another interesting article, timely for Eve. When reading this, not all of it can apply to Eve, but note that ISK is more like gold in the essay than the other types cited. It may give some insight to those with a handful of clues.
http://mises.org/daily/5953/Is-Inflation-about-General-Increases-in-Prices |
Luba Cibre
69
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Posted - 2012.03.13 16:02:00 -
[384] - Quote
Ryan Startalker Zhang wrote:Would be really interesting to see numbers on nullsec anomalies bounty income. And of course, progress on batting botters. If you do Havens and Sanctums, you'll get about 50-60m Isk/h before taxes == 42-51m Isk/h after taxes. But, if there's any neut in local, you should dock, because anomalies are scannable with the ship scanner (that take only 10 sec), so the first thing everyone do, is scanning for sanctums / havens and headshot them, if they're looking for ganks. |
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
267
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Posted - 2012.03.13 16:42:00 -
[385] - Quote
Grukni wrote: [...] W-space Sleepers maybe?
Not even close:
The biggest money-maker from Sleepers--Melted Nanoribbons--comes from salvaging the wrecks, and like all salvage, how much you get/if you get any at all is random. You can do sites for days on end and get little or nothing, especially in C3-down wormholes. (I've heard rumblings recently about a possible stealth nerf to this as well--random means random, and that there will be dry spells, but where the null-scums' pet devs are concerned, anything is possible...)
And also, you are under very real, constant risk of getting the expensive boats you must use to do the sites urp-sploded--I don't mean by the NPCs, either, though that is also a risk: Sleepers hit hard--plus logistical bottleneck of getting them out of w-space, plus the possibility of getting suicide-ganked on the way to market.
Most of the money that comes from Sleepers is not created as new ISK, except for the "Blue Loot," which is sold (usually) to NPC buy-orders, but this latter is a tiny fraction of what comprises the money from wormholes. Everything else is traded between players, so no new ISK created, just existing ISK moved from one person to another.
No:
Wormholes are, arguably, the only high-end PvE content (and in general) that isn't hopelessly broken at present.
So, naturally, I expect them to be nerfed into complete uselessness--and made easier for nullsec alliances to invade, let's not forget (ref.: the pants-on-head idiotic "wormhole mass-stabiliser" idea from the December meeting-minutes)!--anytime now, for reasons stated above.
[/cynicism + increasing ennui with this crap game and its second-rate developer]
E: I mean, they can't even keep their god-damned forums working for more than a month or two, FFS... In irae, veritas. |
MacLuven
EL Bernays School of Strategic Communication
2
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Posted - 2012.03.13 17:19:00 -
[386] - Quote
I read it. I just wanted to let you know. I puked in my mouth repeatedly (Austrian School...oh just wretched again). I'm not sure Eve is ready for a debate on economic theories (I'm not sure Economics can handle it), but there's useful stuff to be mined out of that article (pun intended).
It did get me interested on why you think we can't have hyperinflation in Eve. I tend to agree with you. But I'd like to read your thoughts. |
Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
304
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Posted - 2012.03.13 18:00:00 -
[387] - Quote
Skydell wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:No, that's incorrect. The massive jumps we see in terms of isk almost always come when we make adjustments to anomalies. The last change we did was pretty drastically increase the isk floor across the board on anomalies and the isk coming into the economy jumped after that. That in fact makes the most sense. The Signature Nerf was paired with an anomoly buff. After that change there was no need to scan down signature Plex, you could do it all from Onboard. It hinged on the desire of the community to prevent ISK making and that desire never came about. Me being willing and motivated to sit in hostile space and lock down thier PvE Ops. Because that never happened, PvE Ops could be run without the PvP glass barriers. The trouble with building your game on griefer mechanics is, griefers want attention more than anything else and AFK cloaking a system 26 jumps from high sec won't get them near as much attention as blowing up Hulks in .5 high-sec. You over estimated the griefers willingness to work for thier grief.
It's pretty silly to automatically agree with soundwave when you don't know what the actual numbers he is refering to are.
Unless you made up your mind regardless of the facts, that is.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Thomas Gilmour
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.03.13 19:08:00 -
[388] - Quote
Fixing EVE's economy would be stupid easy, they just don't have the balls to do it. Find every account that logged in, in space, doing stuff (not just sitting and/or on AP), for more than 75% of the time. Ban them. Ban every account associated with them. Ban those CCs, ban their addresses, ban their emails, ban everything about them. Do it again the next week.
Incursions aren't the problem. Bounties aren't the problem, 23.5/7 bots are the problem. Banning 2% of them one time isn't the solution, banning all of them is the solution. |
Lakshata Chawla
Imperial Guardians The Aurora Shadow
12
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Posted - 2012.03.13 19:17:00 -
[389] - Quote
Thomas Gilmour wrote:Fixing EVE's economy would be stupid easy, they just don't have the balls to do it. Find every account that logged in, in space, doing stuff (not just sitting and/or on AP), for more than 75% of the time.
Welp, there goes my 2 accounts since I live in a wormhole.
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MacLuven
EL Bernays School of Strategic Communication
2
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Posted - 2012.03.13 19:35:00 -
[390] - Quote
Lakshata Chawla wrote:Thomas Gilmour wrote:Fixing EVE's economy would be stupid easy, they just don't have the balls to do it. Find every account that logged in, in space, doing stuff (not just sitting and/or on AP), for more than 75% of the time.
Welp, there goes my 2 accounts since I live in a wormhole.
It would be great for way to control the proliferation of Titans and Super Carriers though. |
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