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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 6 post(s) |
baltec1
790
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Posted - 2012.03.12 19:38:00 -
[151] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Andski wrote: Farm bounties in 0.0 for an hour. Proceed to farm incursions in high-sec for an hour. See where you make more ISK.
Hint: It's not the 0.0 bounties.
Incursions are (currently) significantly less than bounties in terms of ISK injection. Knowing how feb's bounty numbers break out will give some idea (albeit inferential) about where the biggest ISK faucet is in EVE. If people are worried about hyper-inflation caused by ISK faucets, which I think is pretty lolworthy....but it is my opinion, then knowing where the biggest faucet is necessary. Hint: It is not currently Incursions
Yes it is. They dont have to be the biggest to be causing hyperinflation just inject even more isk into a sysem already suffering from inflation. Incursions are making it worse. |
Kusanagi Kasuga
Ferocious Felines
22
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Posted - 2012.03.12 19:38:00 -
[152] - Quote
Andski wrote:Seriously any post by Endeavour Starfleet in threads about incursions should just be glossed over entirely because he doesn't want his risk-free 150m ISK/hour fountain touched ITT, nullbears vastly overestimate the income level of an income source they don't understand and thusly want nerfed.
Top level income for incursions is less than 100m/hour in optimal conditions. There is already noticable competition in sites to make ISK, and it's likely competition will increase as more people find it's not as hard/risky as it used to be. It's still not 100% safe though, I have seen faction battleships explode recently.
The fact that nullsec people seem to jump on every chance to try to attack the income sources of others makes this less of a discussion and more of a war. Perhaps you need to stop clamoring for everyone else's income sources to get nerfed until they are actually higher and/or more dangerous than yours.
Edit: I'll admit I know f*** all about nullsec bounty prizes, much like most of the people shouting for nerfs to highsec income know f*** all about a reasonable high-sec income. The people quoting mission running incomes of 60-100m/hour, and incursion incomes of >100m/hour are either woefully misinformed, or outright lying to support an agenda. |
Grey Stormshadow
draketrain Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
1040
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Posted - 2012.03.12 19:38:00 -
[153] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:We're looking at the economy constantly and looking at our options.
One of the fundamental issues we have is that we're making everyone "better" at making money, so the effect kind of snowballs. Right now we're considering everything form increasing taxes to lowering bounties across the board. How about adding small docking fee to hisec stations, tiny stargate usage fee to hisec gates. Concord-/customs- and station crew need to get paid.
Also... remove insurance and remove ability to milk incursions.
Get |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
411
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:41:00 -
[154] - Quote
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:Andski wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Tippia wrote: As luck would have it, we do know that. Even if we assume that the highsec incursions are run at max efficiency, there's still roughly twice as much in untapped incursion income waiting in the systemGǪ I did not see that one. Good catch! Someone needs to ask him to break out bounties by security for feb. Farm bounties in 0.0 for an hour. Proceed to farm incursions in high-sec for an hour. See where you make more ISK. Hint: It's not the 0.0 bounties. The day when i have to agree with a goon is a sad day indeed. Seeing you guys go back and forth is perplexing. Miners provide something for their efforts to the eve economy: minerals. The efforts in and of themselves are not relevant... only what the miner brings in in terms of mins. Mining effort = mins = isk. 0.0 ratting is a mixed bag. You can bring in NPC loot for your efforts and sell it. That aspect of null ratting is fine for the economy since you are not paid for getting the modules, you are paid for selling them on the market, by the market. Ratting effort = modules = isk. The null ratting bounties are another matter. You get ISK right from the EvE system and there is no check or balance with the economy. Your effort = isk. Incursions provide nothing for the economy really. It's just "free" isk that you get for effort. effort = isk. Missions are the same.
Again, all the problems occur when mere effort = isk. When the market doesn't get a say.
All these is facet problems WILL be solved when you look at every profession in eve and turn this: Effort = ISK into this: Effort = Some Commodity = ISK. If this is done, all activities you guys are talking about will get corrected by the market and be auto-balanced by the players/market and CCP won't have to think about it again. It will just be solved.
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JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
42
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Posted - 2012.03.12 19:43:00 -
[155] - Quote
Zircon Dasher wrote:Andski wrote: Farm bounties in 0.0 for an hour. Proceed to farm incursions in high-sec for an hour. See where you make more ISK.
Hint: It's not the 0.0 bounties.
Incursions are (currently) significantly less than bounties in terms of ISK injection. Knowing how feb's bounty numbers break out will give some idea (albeit inferential) about where the biggest ISK faucet is in EVE.
Not empty quoting anther clueless post about " i dont understand that introducing what would seem is small isk injection(18%) can actually multiply amount of isk retained in a economy by huge factor" |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2370
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:45:00 -
[156] - Quote
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:Top level income for incursions is less than 100m/hour in optimal conditions. There is already noticable competition in sites to make ISK, and it's likely competition will increase as more people find it's not as hard/risky as it used to be. It's still not 100% safe though, I have seen faction battleships explode recently.
ahaha look at you calling me a nullbear when you literally never leave high-sec or PvP at all
hisec "shiny" fleets can milk vanguards at well over 100m/hour, fyi "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Kusanagi Kasuga
Ferocious Felines
23
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:46:00 -
[157] - Quote
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Andski wrote: Farm bounties in 0.0 for an hour. Proceed to farm incursions in high-sec for an hour. See where you make more ISK.
Hint: It's not the 0.0 bounties.
Incursions are (currently) significantly less than bounties in terms of ISK injection. Knowing how feb's bounty numbers break out will give some idea (albeit inferential) about where the biggest ISK faucet is in EVE. Not empty quoting anther clueless post about " i dont understand that introducing what would think is small isk injection(18%) can actually multiply amount of isk retained in a economy by huge factor"
Not empty quoting another clueless post about "I don't understand that a new income source, however much lacking balance by a new isk-sink, is not the problem unless it is, itself, injecting greater amounts of ISK than it should." Whether it is the straw that breaks the camels back is irrelevant.
The straw that breaks the camels back: Incursions The anvil already on the camel's back: Bounties.
Which one is the root of the problem? |
Kusanagi Kasuga
Ferocious Felines
23
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Posted - 2012.03.12 19:47:00 -
[158] - Quote
Andski wrote:Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:Top level income for incursions is less than 100m/hour in optimal conditions. There is already noticable competition in sites to make ISK, and it's likely competition will increase as more people find it's not as hard/risky as it used to be. It's still not 100% safe though, I have seen faction battleships explode recently. ahaha look at you calling me a nullbear when you literally never leave high-sec or PvP at all hisec "shiny" fleets can milk vanguards at well over 100m/hour, fyi
Shall I assume that's from your long experience as a member of a hisec shiny fleet, or are you pulling that fact from your rectum?
Also, even if that was the case - you're suggesting nerfing incursions overall, not the top-end rate. In fact, most nerfs would probably be bottom-heavy, screwing the players who were not making top-ISK already. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2370
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:47:00 -
[159] - Quote
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:Zircon Dasher wrote:Andski wrote: Farm bounties in 0.0 for an hour. Proceed to farm incursions in high-sec for an hour. See where you make more ISK.
Hint: It's not the 0.0 bounties.
Incursions are (currently) significantly less than bounties in terms of ISK injection. Knowing how feb's bounty numbers break out will give some idea (albeit inferential) about where the biggest ISK faucet is in EVE. Not empty quoting anther clueless post about " i dont understand that introducing what would think is small isk injection(18%) can actually multiply amount of isk retained in a economy by huge factor" Not empty quoting another clueless post about "I don't understand that a new income source, however much lacking balance by a new isk-sink, is not the problem unless it is, itself, injecting greater amounts of ISK than it should." Whether it is the straw that breaks the camels back is irrelevant. The straw that breaks the camels back: Incursions The anvil already on the camel's back: Bounties. Which one is the root of the problem?
"Please leave my no-risk ISK fountain alone and nerf the already pathetic income from 0.0 bounties" "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
411
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:48:00 -
[160] - Quote
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote: The straw that breaks the camels back: Incursions The anvil already on the camel's back: Bounties.
Which one is the root of the problem?
They are the same thing.
Effort = ISK - controlled by EvE system, creates market imbalance. Effort = Commodity = ISK - controlled by market and balances on its own.
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JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
42
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Posted - 2012.03.12 19:49:00 -
[161] - Quote
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote: The straw that breaks the camels back: Incursions The anvil already on the camel's back: Bounties.
Which one is the root of the problem?
Incursions because they screw up risk reward balance. Nerf incursion then we can talk about nerfing bounties.
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2370
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:49:00 -
[162] - Quote
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:Andski wrote:Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:Top level income for incursions is less than 100m/hour in optimal conditions. There is already noticable competition in sites to make ISK, and it's likely competition will increase as more people find it's not as hard/risky as it used to be. It's still not 100% safe though, I have seen faction battleships explode recently. ahaha look at you calling me a nullbear when you literally never leave high-sec or PvP at all hisec "shiny" fleets can milk vanguards at well over 100m/hour, fyi Shall I assume that's from your long experience as a member of a hisec shiny fleet, or are you pulling that fact from your rectum?
I regularly talk to shinyfleet FCs, if that's what you're asking. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Kusanagi Kasuga
Ferocious Felines
23
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:54:00 -
[163] - Quote
Andski wrote:Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:Andski wrote:Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:Top level income for incursions is less than 100m/hour in optimal conditions. There is already noticable competition in sites to make ISK, and it's likely competition will increase as more people find it's not as hard/risky as it used to be. It's still not 100% safe though, I have seen faction battleships explode recently. ahaha look at you calling me a nullbear when you literally never leave high-sec or PvP at all hisec "shiny" fleets can milk vanguards at well over 100m/hour, fyi Shall I assume that's from your long experience as a member of a hisec shiny fleet, or are you pulling that fact from your rectum? I regularly talk to shinyfleet FCs, if that's what you're asking.
It wasn't what I was asking, but you did indirectly answer it. No, you do not participate in incursions, and they in fact are relatively lessening your income a little bit, but you are quite certain from an unbiased standpoint that they need nerfed. Coincidentally, so does Scissors. |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
77
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 19:59:00 -
[164] - Quote
Andski wrote: "Please leave my no-risk ISK fountain alone and nerf the already pathetic income from 0.0 bounties"
Actually this is one of the biggest reasons why I think having the breakdown of bounty by security would be really beneficial.
If you look at the amount of mission reward+bonus part of the faucet it does kind of imply that a fairly significant amount of the bounties each month come from missions (since reward+bounty is usually paltry in terms of overall mission ISK)... which numerically originate in highsec (or at least did a long time ago). |
Eso Es
War Tribe
7
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:01:00 -
[165] - Quote
Gogela wrote:"Inflation!"
"Why you keep using that word... I do not think it meaans what you think it means."
Look, inflation hurts only a few classes of people: Old People, Children, people on some types of welfare or fixed income, and the poor.
What do they have in common? Unemployment.
You have a job in EvE... we all do. Inflation is a non-factor because everyone (but people who only play NPCs and f-em anyway) will see their income go up proportionally with the inflation of the currency. It's totally a non-issue!
Except if the payment for said job doesn't rise with the rising costs of things, your point is moot. When was the last time you got a "raise" in EVE. Level 4s pay the same as they ever did, yet everything costs more. |
baltec1
790
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:14:00 -
[166] - Quote
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:
The only thing coming out of nullsec of late is 'nerf highsec, nerf wormholes, lowsec is fine, buff nullsec' with little regard to the fact that you need income to support a PvP lifestyle, and if you nerf highsec enough, all you're going to accomplish is that the only way to get out of highsec is in the arms of an entrenched and bloated nullsec coalition.
Next time you rant it would be best to make sure you get your facts right. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
411
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:14:00 -
[167] - Quote
Eso Es wrote:Gogela wrote:"Inflation!"
"Why you keep using that word... I do not think it meaans what you think it means."
Look, inflation hurts only a few classes of people: Old People, Children, people on some types of welfare or fixed income, and the poor.
What do they have in common? Unemployment.
You have a job in EvE... we all do. Inflation is a non-factor because everyone (but people who only play NPCs and f-em anyway) will see their income go up proportionally with the inflation of the currency. It's totally a non-issue!
Except if the payment for said job doesn't rise with the rising costs of things, your point is moot. When was the last time you got a "raise" in EVE. Level 4s pay the same as they ever did, yet everything costs more. Edit: Ok fine "industrialists" might get raises, but marketeers (assuming price margin remains the same even though the actual price of an item rises), mission runners, and ratters don't see any increase in the rewards for their effots. Bottomline: Nerfhammer Incursions PLEASE Read this and then read this. You clearly haven't read a thing I've said.
My point is precisely that anywhere the EvE system is paying people directly in ISK for something there is a problem. I don't want to nerf incursions. I want to remove all EvE system ISK payouts entirely and replace them with something you can sell on the market. It's the only way to achieve any kind of balance that doesn't require CCP to constantly intervene. My point isn't moot you just didn't read anything in this thread.
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Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
2370
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:16:00 -
[168] - Quote
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:Top level income for incursions is less than It wasn't what I was asking, but you did indirectly answer it. No, you do not participate in incursions, and they in fact are relatively lessening your income a little bit, but you are quite certain from an unbiased standpoint that they need nerfed. Coincidentally, so does Scissors.
The only thing coming out of nullsec of late is 'nerf highsec, nerf wormholes, lowsec is fine, buff nullsec' with little regard to the fact that you need income to support a PvP lifestyle, and if you nerf highsec enough, all you're going to accomplish is that the only way to get out of highsec is in the arms of an entrenched and bloated nullsec coalition.
Actually, this is already becoming the case because of supercapital proliferation, but that's for another thread. "WeGÇÖre a professional Merc Alliance, like PL" ~ snot shot, 2012 |
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
110
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:17:00 -
[169] - Quote
Where does the idea to nerf highsec (and just highsec) ever come in the minds of people wanting to fix inflation? NPC bounties are much, much more plentiful in nullsec than in highsec, incursions pay out a lot more in dangerous areas than highsec. Even ship deaths you may suffer while generating NPC bounties end up adding even more ISK into the economy.
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Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
77
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Posted - 2012.03.12 20:22:00 -
[170] - Quote
Eso Es wrote: Except if the payment for said job doesn't rise with the rising costs of things, your point is moot. When was the last time you got a "raise" in EVE.
Actually mission runners got a "raise" back in 2007-2008'ish. They decreased total number of rats, but increased bounty and composition of rats in missions. Meaning that you could run more missions/hr than you could before. Since that time CCP also boosted/added ships such that it was faster to kill the smaller number of rats found in a mission. Meaning that you could run even more missions/hr than before.
Assuming you dont shitfit and have good skills (sp and rl) obviously.
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baltec1
790
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Posted - 2012.03.12 20:29:00 -
[171] - Quote
Patient 2428190 wrote:Where does the idea to nerf highsec (and just highsec) ever come in the minds of people wanting to fix inflation? NPC bounties are much, much more plentiful in nullsec than in highsec, incursions pay out a lot more in dangerous areas than highsec. Even ship deaths you may suffer while generating NPC bounties end up adding even more ISK into the economy.
incursions broke the economy and most of them get run in empire. This is why it sounds like a nerf highsec call. |
DelBoy Trades
Trotter Independent Traders.
243
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Posted - 2012.03.12 20:30:00 -
[172] - Quote
CCP Soundwave wrote:Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally.
UMAD?!?! Damn nature, you scary! |
Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1040
|
Posted - 2012.03.12 20:30:00 -
[173] - Quote
Seems like Soundwave just promised us that he won't be nerfing Incursions but will instead focus on bounties via ratting, anoms, and missions. I'm very curious how that's gonna pan out - I suppose that there's (theoretically?) an absolute cap to the Incursion faucet, so it'll really emphasize the income differential between high sec Incursions and other high end activities like L5s and high level WH ops.
I guess the net result is that high sec incursion runners will become even more fantastically wealthy compared to everyone else, and Shiny Fleet will be the only way to make ISK at it?
It'll be interesting!
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Endeavour Starfleet
687
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Posted - 2012.03.12 20:37:00 -
[174] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:What make you think we dont?
We simply do not police for CCP.
You had better get started then eh? Considering their next step is to nerf bounties. If nullsec folks can report blue bots and people get serious about reporting hisec bots. Inflation may be able to be stopped. Or atleast slowed to acceptable levels.
Patient 2428190 wrote:Where does the idea to nerf highsec (and just highsec) ever come in the minds of people wanting to fix inflation? NPC bounties are much, much more plentiful in nullsec than in highsec, incursions pay out a lot more in dangerous areas than highsec. Even ship deaths you may suffer while generating NPC bounties end up adding even more ISK into the economy.
I have several theories why some want to nerf hisec so badly.
#1 They want their cannon fodder to return.
#2 Part of #1 For some they want them to come back because there are now gaps in the shield wall and that affects their botting.
#3 They have been forced to accept lower SP members or lower member requirements and they hate that.
DelBoy Trades wrote:CCP Soundwave wrote:Incursions are not a big issue in terms of isk globally. UMAD?!?!
No....
HE RIGHT!!!.. |
Kusanagi Kasuga
Ferocious Felines
23
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Posted - 2012.03.12 20:37:00 -
[175] - Quote
The real solution is not to try to pin the nerf to one specific area of the game, as there isn't a specific mechanic causing the inflation singularly. It's to do an all around slight nerf to income, which will result in a net no-change to people's wealth.
The thing that's not helping is people trying to bandwagon this as another nerf-highsec thread. |
JitaPriceChecker2
State War Academy Caldari State
42
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Posted - 2012.03.12 20:39:00 -
[176] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Seems like Soundwave just promised us that he won't be nerfing Incursions but will instead focus on bounties via ratting, anoms, and missions.
Soundwave also wanted to sell us back saved fitting slots that was allready there before they were removed.
Who cares ?
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1041
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Posted - 2012.03.12 20:39:00 -
[177] - Quote
Kusanagi Kasuga wrote:The real solution is not to try to pin the nerf to one specific area of the game, as there isn't a specific mechanic causing the inflation singularly. It's to do an all around slight nerf to income, which will result in a net no-change to people's wealth.
The thing that's not helping is people trying to bandwagon this as another nerf-highsec thread.
Do you believe that running pirate missions in 0.0 should be more profitable than high sec incursions?
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Parsec Flux
1041
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Posted - 2012.03.12 20:40:00 -
[178] - Quote
JitaPriceChecker2 wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Seems like Soundwave just promised us that he won't be nerfing Incursions but will instead focus on bounties via ratting, anoms, and missions.
Soundwave also wanted to sell us back saved fitting slots that was allready there before they were removed. Who cares ?
I think its been pretty thoroughly established that it was not in fact Soundwave who was behind all that.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://vimeo.com/user9887127 Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
331
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Posted - 2012.03.12 20:41:00 -
[179] - Quote
Gogela wrote: This assumes that inflation is a bad thing. It is NOT. The materials sector is not the problem at all... you are ignoring a critical difference between material faucets and NPC payment faucets: Material price levels are set by player demand vs. supply. This relationship is balanced by the EvE economy and is not a problem at all. When mineral prices rise more miners find it profitable and worth while to mine. When mineral prices fall, fewer people mine. It's not the mineral supply that determines market price... it's labor supply!!! When EvE pays you directly in ISK, the market doesn't get a say and that is where the problems pop up.
You are off base. The same labor that could be used for raw material production, goes to ISK faucets, because ISK faucets are worth more per unit of time. It is the allocation of labor (time) that is the issue, not the lack of it. Player time in game is the only truly limited resource in Eve. it is the allocation of this time that is the heart of the issue. What is actually spent by players is not ISK, it is their time. They will gravitate to the activities that generate the most wealth per unit of time, wealth, not ISK.
As far as minerals go, an activity that creates ISK also creates minerals by way of drones and loot. If that loot and drone droppings were not there, all of the labor (time and effort expended) would need to be consumed by mining to keep prices at the current level. If the only thing generated from shooting rats was ISK, then the wealth of minerals must come from someplace else, must come from a different allocation of player time.
Mineral prices are held artificially low because the time spent gaining ISK, also gains minerals. Mineral prices should be significantly higher than they are. The inflation in Eve is not a problem of prices going up, the problem is that not all prices are going up to meet the expansion of the monetary base. If those mineral prices can go up, THEN people will mine more. The problem is they are not mining more because those prices aren't able to go up as quickly as they should be. When the mineral prices are high enough, and reach wealth per time parity with faucet activities, then the expansion of the monetary base will slow.
Gogela wrote: This is incoherent. The problem is not anemic consumption but a market economy trying to balance itself against NPC payments/entitlements.
Your lack of comprehension is not my problem. Crack a book, I recommend some Bastiat.
Gogela wrote: I agree with the first sentence but not the last. Mining floats with the economy however, and does not represent "sucking at the great ISK tit" in my view.
You read it wrong, I did not state mining did represent "sucking at the great ISK tit", I said it did not. Shooting rats is the big suck. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
77
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Posted - 2012.03.12 20:42:00 -
[180] - Quote
Just curious, are there any numbers for what bounty isk facets were like pre-incursions for comparison? I'm curious to see how much isk influx from other activities decreased if any as a result of their introduction. |
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