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Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.17 07:21:00 -
[1]
A long time ago, there was general discussion that the Muninn and Vagabond where imbalanced due to the addition of an extra turret hardpoint against their tech 1 counterparts. But now Eagle and Zealot have gotten their 5th turret slot (and made the ships far more effective).
So i ask you, where is the 5th Turret slot for the Stabber / Rupture?
Rather than simply giving the Eagle/Zealot and extra turret, they gave the t1 cruisers this too... i think someone forgot about the matari. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Artemis Rose
Eleckrostatik
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Posted - 2008.06.17 07:29:00 -
[2]
Well... I think the answer why the Matari T1 cruisers were "forgotten" is called game balance.
The Rupture is one of the best t1 cruisers and it needs an extra turret because the Omen/Moa/Zealot/Eagle got one?
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Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine. WTB Purple Nerf Bat. |
Megan Maynard
Out of Order
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Posted - 2008.06.17 07:34:00 -
[3]
IF the rupture got another turret I would wet myself. The damn thing can all ready do 300+ DPS.
Stabber is also pretty awesome.
Minmatar ships stay unchanged for a good reason, they rock.
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SKINK0429
THE NDRANGHETA Monkey Religion
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Posted - 2008.06.17 07:42:00 -
[4]
Rupture & stabber are fine as is would be way overpowered with an extra turret slot?
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Rhak Amharr
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.06.17 07:45:00 -
[5]
The argument sounds like it comes from a child whose small brother/sister got one more piece of candy than him while totally overseeing that the childs pieces of candy are 10 times bigger. :)
Although I'd love a 5th turret on the Rupture, it would be way overpowered. Damage output from a 5-turret Rupture would be really sick. Can't really comment on the Stabber, cause I never flew it, but just because other races got another turret, it doesn't mean Minmatar should get them too if it's balanced in this way.
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Rhak Amharr
Metafarmers
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Posted - 2008.06.17 07:46:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Rhak Amharr on 17/06/2008 07:45:58 double post
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Shimizu Takumi
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Posted - 2008.06.17 11:01:00 -
[7]
5th turret slot on a rupture?
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gnshadowninja
Baptism oF Fire Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.06.17 11:15:00 -
[8]
The rupture has a very hard tank and kicks loads of dps other than an amarr counterpart like the Maller, Which tanks hard but with the hard tank lowers the dps loads.
Addin another turrent to a rupture is just goin to make everyone go minmatar as they are already over powered in HACs/Recons.
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Raniss
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Posted - 2008.06.17 12:35:00 -
[9]
The stabber could really use another gunslot imho. The rupture....nah, its already a damn fine ship.
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Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.17 12:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: gnshadowninja The rupture has a very hard tank and kicks loads of dps other than an amarr counterpart like the Maller, Which tanks hard but with the hard tank lowers the dps loads.
Addin another turrent to a rupture is just goin to make everyone go minmatar as they are already over powered in HACs/Recons.
Ruppy doesnt tank hard, it tanks default. Sticking a 1600 Plate on it is just adding a buffer as opposed to a 'tank' as such (try an active rupture and you'll agree). It does do alot of DPS but thats only with a double damage bonus and 3 gyro's, by default it's outdamage by a thorax by about 25% (which only has 1 damage bonus, comparing 425's against neutrons). Dont get me wrong, rupture is a good ship, and i like it - im just pointing out things here.
Every single 5 turret T1 cruiser now outdamages both minmatar cruisers (using the largest close range weapon in all cases), even the moa, which has no damage bonus. And the statement about overpowered HAC's/Recons is stupid. Muninn is horrific - the vagabond WAS awesome many moons ago but cant cut it againt modern tanks without serious help, it's speed however makes it good at surviving... which is all it does most times now against other HAC's. Rapier/Huginn are good - but they are hardly out of line with other races (especially considering the falcon).
Dont spout random stuff, really think on it. Im a guy who likes flying minmtar cruisers and defends the cyclone/tempest as being good ships - but it doesnt mean i can't look at these ships from a default point of view and think "somethings not right here..." -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
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Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum TRUST Coalition
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Posted - 2008.06.17 13:10:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Maeltstome Every single 5 turret T1 cruiser now outdamages both minmatar cruisers (using the largest close range weapon in all cases), even the moa, which has no damage bonus.
I don't believe you. Not in the sense of raw numbers, but in the sense of the actual ship setups that you see out there. Your claim is in the same realm as saying that the Domi is the highest-damage battleship - technically true under one-dimensional conditions, but in practice it just doesn't hold. I'm assuming that you're only putting four ACs on the Ruppie and not using the missile hardpoints, which seems inconsistent with your hypothetical situation where damage is everything.
I'm also assuming you're taking EFT DPS figures as the basis for comparison, which do not tell the whole story. The Rupture gets weapons that take no cap to fire, which is definitely a bonus over cap-based weapons. It gets two utility high slots for NOS/neut/whatever assuming you didn't put launchers in them for the damage comparison, which also doesn't come out. It gets best-in-class tracking, so can land its DPS most effectively on anything that's moving. It does get a very low optimal, but the generous falloff gives it a wider range of engagement envelope than blaster boats. And so on. Plus this is only considering the damage potential, and hasn't even considered what can be fit in the other slots, where the Rupture is definitely not disadvantaged.
Me and my Geddon happen to disagree with your claim that plates are not a tank, too.
I appreciate that you are trying to be unbiased when you look at the Minmatar T1 cruisers, but your claim that "somethings not right here" does not seem to be substantiated on any level beyond counting the number of bonused weapon hardpoints and doing a bit of EFT-warrioring without taking the numbers in context.
Of all the people that have posted on your thread, no-one else has yet agreed with you that the Rupture is underpowered, and there's a reason for that. Let's ask Garmon if he will be cross-training Caldari now that the Moa got a fifth turret...
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Ulnah
Preatum.Niht.Hraefn
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Posted - 2008.06.17 15:26:00 -
[12]
1. Do not touch my Rupture. Do not touch my Stabber. Rupture/Stabber is not broken. About plates . . . .
2. Analize. Adapt. Win.
3. As setted into some corp moto; If you dont adapt, you'll be a victim of evolution.
If dont agree with this, reroll or give me your stuff.
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Feilamya
Pelennor Swarm Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.06.17 17:29:00 -
[13]
Minmatar are losing the EFT war ... CCP, do something!
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Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.17 18:21:00 -
[14]
*Sigh* - EFT warrior comments already. Only changes proposed are adding an extra turret slots - so nothing about the ships current abilities has changed.
All you people who love the rupture and stabber - your basically flaming me for a potential 25% damage increase. So GG - blocking a ship you already like from becoming better.
seriously: think first, then flame. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Ulnah
Preatum.Niht.Hraefn
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:22:00 -
[15]
Quote: All you people who love the rupture and stabber - your basically flaming me for a potential 25% damage increase. So GG - blocking a ship you already like from becoming better.
seriously: think first, then flame.
When do you think CCP will agree with a Stabber/Rupture 5th turret if they wiped 7th Hurricane turret out? CCP allow this and Gallente players will want 8 heavies Thoraxes back.
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Tamoko
Damage Unlimited Inc INTERDICTION
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Posted - 2008.06.17 19:33:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Maeltstome *Sigh* - EFT warrior comments already. Only changes proposed are adding an extra turret slots - so nothing about the ships current abilities has changed.
All you people who love the rupture and stabber - your basically flaming me for a potential 25% damage increase. So GG - blocking a ship you already like from becoming better.
seriously: think first, then flame.
I can't believe I just read this. You're seriously giving these people a hard time for giving a fair and honest outlook on the ships they fly, rather than supporting your self-admittedly hollow argument to unbalance said ships because they look weaker on paper? Good god, man. ---
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Maeltstome
Suicidal Office Clerks
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Posted - 2008.06.17 20:24:00 -
[17]
The argument isnt about being weaker on paper, its about being weaker in practice.
As it was pointed out, minmatar are forced to fight in falloff (i say forced because very few matari ships have the slots to tank as effectively as the other races, hence they have to avoid damage). This drops real damage alot.
I think as one of my friends pointed out - perhaps it's less to do with these ships specifically(although this highlighted it a little for me) and more to do with projectiles in general, large ones especially. Alot of matari ships get a double damage bonus, and even with this they struggle to keep up with the damage potential of other races.
As a general rant, AC's perhaps need looked at. I know guns are capless, but so are missiles: and torps recently got a massive boost. Having lower cap to start with isn't great, but regardless this makes little difference since active tanking is very weak at the moment compared to HP buffer's.
Come to think of it, alot of things **** me off about eve these days. Thread abandonment seems tempting. Im going to end up ranting more if i dont stop now. -------
[12:07] w33Daz: a trained 1 skill fur 24 mins n it took 2 days aff drones lvl 5 [12:07] w33Daz: A WIS LIKE WTF |
Gartel Reiman
Civis Romanus Sum TRUST Coalition
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Posted - 2008.06.18 08:04:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Maeltstome The argument isnt about being weaker on paper, its about being weaker in practice.
Right. And everyone else agrees that the Rupture isn't weaker in practice, and is (in its current incarnation) one of the premier T1 combat cruisers. Giving it an extra 25% damage would imbalance things to the point of ridiculousness.
Additionally, because ACs have the lowest fitting costs of any guns, and especially as dual 180s are perfectly viable on a combat setup, giving the Rupture an extra hardpoint would be more beneficial to it the the extra turret the Omen or Eagle got. Speaking from experience, the Omen was hard to fit even when it just had the four turrets, and though the fifth turret is nice it warrants substantial compromises in the rest of the fitting. The Rupture could add an extra autocannon with much less of a compromise, and thus it gets the damage increase with less of a tradeoff.
Quote: As it was pointed out, minmatar are forced to fight in falloff (i say forced because very few matari ships have the slots to tank as effectively as the other races, hence they have to avoid damage). This drops real damage alot.
I'm not convinced by your slots argument, either. Rupture has 3 mids and 5 lows - the same as the Thorax and Omen, one extra lowslot compared to the Vexor, and though Caldari are different altogether, Caracal gets 5-2 and Moa 4-4 so neither outdoes the Rupture in this respect. The only T1 cruiser with a better slow layout for tanking is the Maller, and complaining that you can't tank as well as a Maller is like complaining that you can't get the same tank on a Hurricane as you can on a Drake.
The Rupture is a very solid ship that can take a lot of damage. If the Thoraxes and Vexors cope, your Ruppie can too. And since you are in a ship of the fastest race, and have both a MWD and web fitted, you don't have to fight in falloff unless you decide to. In fact, with the outrageously good tracking of ACs, you are possibly better off webbing and trying to keep traversal as high as possible by bumping and/or orbiting at 500m. Fighting in falloff only really applies to ships like Stabbers that rely on not getting webbed.
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