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Keen Fallsword
Billionaires Club BLACK-MARK
36
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Posted - 2012.03.12 11:28:00 -
[1] - Quote
Yesterday I was on the battle I didn't die but strange idea comes out :)
Remove alpha from the game. Why ?
Its not funny to die in one shoot. Every of us want to have good fun in this game. Eve is very time consuming not because you are dying but because logistics takes so long. Good fight is about time. Fight is / was good because was long. "Logistics are on field helping everyone to stay as long as possible". So its stupid to have something like ALPHA fleet with so big DMG that logistics cant handle. Removing alpha can be good for tactic in game. Different fleets comps with many others ships / Jams / Damps etc.
Alpha is even worst now, because Ti-Di ...
Think about it. |
Daeva Teresa
Viziam Amarr Empire
40
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Posted - 2012.03.12 11:34:00 -
[2] - Quote
And how exactly do you want to "remove alfa"?
To nerf dmg, increase HP? You will just need more ships to alfa someone.
Its absolutely normal and one of the best strategies in any game to focuss yous units fire on one target at a time. CCP really please dont use Upgraded, Limited, Experimental-áand Prototype in item names. It sounds like the item is actually worse than basic meta 1 item. Use Calibrated, Enhanced, Optimized and Upgraded. Its really easy to understand that the item is better than meta 1 and its also in alphabetic order. |
Keen Fallsword
Billionaires Club BLACK-MARK
36
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Posted - 2012.03.12 11:48:00 -
[3] - Quote
Daeva Teresa wrote:And how exactly do you want to "remove alfa"?
To nerf dmg, increase HP? You will just need more ships to alfa someone.
Its absolutely normal and one of the best strategies in any game to focuss yous units fire on one target at a time.
Well I don't know "HOW".
But I know that longest battle = more fun for all. That's the true right ? So more happy customers = more money in wallet.
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Vertisce Soritenshi
Varion Galactic Tragedy.
1219
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Posted - 2012.03.12 11:57:00 -
[4] - Quote
You CAN'T remove alpha damage from the game. Alpha damage is simply a common term for "everybody fire all a the same time and hope the initial hit is enough to kill the guy". This occurs because every pilot usually has a different cycle time with the exception of the very first shot which always fires as soon as you click. The only way to do away with it would be to make guns fire at the end of the cycle instead of the beginning...this would not only be stupid but likely game breaking.
The solution to your problem is to make sure everybody is fitted well enough to survive a decent Alpha strike. If the enemy alpha's your best tank fit...well...they deserve it and bring a better tank fit. EvE is not about PvP.-á EvE is about the SANDBOX! - CCP!-á Open the door!!! |
Keen Fallsword
Billionaires Club BLACK-MARK
36
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Posted - 2012.03.12 12:34:00 -
[5] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:You CAN'T remove alpha damage from the game. Alpha damage is simply a common term for "everybody fire all a the same time and hope the initial hit is enough to kill the guy". This occurs because every pilot usually has a different cycle time with the exception of the very first shot which always fires as soon as you click. The only way to do away with it would be to make guns fire at the end of the cycle instead of the beginning...this would not only be stupid but likely game breaking.
The solution to your problem is to make sure everybody is fitted well enough to survive a decent Alpha strike. If the enemy alpha's your best tank fit...well...they deserve it and bring a better tank fit.
I was talking about ALPHA from Maelstroms / Artillery for me this weapon system is OPowered. Sorry !! I wasnt talking about alpha itself, because of coz you cant remove it from the game :) Everything else is OK I mean weapons systems. Rails, Lasers etc.. but projectiles ....
And YES you CANT survive Alpha strike from Maelstroms or Tornadoes .. that's the point |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
81
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Posted - 2012.03.12 12:48:00 -
[6] - Quote
You can't survive alpha strike from anything. It's ******* alpha strike. This is possibly the worst suggestion I have ever seen. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window! |
Keen Fallsword
Billionaires Club BLACK-MARK
36
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Posted - 2012.03.12 13:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:You can't survive alpha strike from anything. It's ******* alpha strike. This is possibly the worst suggestion I have ever seen.
why ? |
Warp Warrior
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.03.12 13:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
The only way to make this "alpha" bearable in my eyes is to just compensate the reduction in damage mod with rate of fire, but in some way that's just stupid and doesn't make sense of removing one of projectile strengths. Everyone would start using lasers then if something like that happens. |
Warp Warrior
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.03.12 13:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Also sorry for the double post. Okay imaginary fleet of 50 maelstroms vs 50 maelstroms + 10 logistics on each side + command ship or t3. W/e you get the idea, get the max buffer, okay first 25 maelstroms would die from the others shooting with "alpha" but once one side is good enough with focusing fire, some side would be like 20 other would be 35, those 20 suddenly aren't enough to alpha any of those 35 and they are forced to warpout, althought 35 are still doing quite great and killing those pesky 20 maelstroms and their logistics. That's how the fight is determined, by how well fleets are cooperated. Also if you are going to counter-argument me with somethig like "so there is going to be only maelstroms in fleets or any other projectile based ship?" Well, grow a pair, other ships like mega, abaddon or w/e other armor tanked ship can fit 1600mm plates and say FU, live longer and prosper ! :D 800mm plates are = LSE, which is like 2x weaker than 1600mm plates. Uf i hope i covered why nerfing alpha is a terrible idea ;D |
Aquila Draco
144
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Posted - 2012.03.12 13:48:00 -
[10] - Quote
Keen Fallsword wrote:Daeva Teresa wrote:And how exactly do you want to "remove alfa"?
To nerf dmg, increase HP? You will just need more ships to alfa someone.
Its absolutely normal and one of the best strategies in any game to focuss yous units fire on one target at a time. Well I don't know "HOW". But I know that longest battle = more fun for all. That's the true right ? So more happy customers = more money in wallet.
Its easy to "remove alfa".
Just make that all your guns do not shoot and deal dmg simultaneously (at the same time you click button). Make it they fire and deal dmg through all cycle time.
It will look and feel better too - more realistic. |
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Duchess Starbuckington
Starbuckington Manor
149
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Posted - 2012.03.12 14:35:00 -
[11] - Quote
Quote:Every single one of Keen Fallsword's posts You're either a pretty good troll or a complete ******* idiot. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
764
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Posted - 2012.03.12 14:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aquila Draco wrote:Keen Fallsword wrote:Daeva Teresa wrote:And how exactly do you want to "remove alfa"?
To nerf dmg, increase HP? You will just need more ships to alfa someone.
Its absolutely normal and one of the best strategies in any game to focuss yous units fire on one target at a time. Well I don't know "HOW". But I know that longest battle = more fun for all. That's the true right ? So more happy customers = more money in wallet. Its easy to "remove alfa". Just make that all your guns do not shoot and deal dmg simultaneously (at the same time you click button). Make it they fire and deal dmg through all cycle time. It will look and feel better too - more realistic.
why is it more realistic? Looking at old WWII footage, seems most of the time that battleships fired *everything* at once, reloaded, then did it again.
As for what you're proposing OP, artillery only "has" alpha.
1400mm Artillery (T1, Meta 0): Damage Modifier -- 10.672 x Rate of fire -- 40.16 s Rough volley (one gun, Phased Plasma) = 426 thermal, 85 Kinetic (we'll say 510 total for easy numbers) Rough DPS (one gun) = 12.75
425mm Railgun (T1, Meta 0) Damage Modifier -- 2.75 x Rate of fire -- 10 s Rough volley (one gun, Antimatter) = 55 thermal, 77 Kinetic (we'll say 130 total for easy numbers) Rough DPS (one gun) = 13.2
Tachyon Beam Laser (T1, Meta 0) Damage Modifier -- 4.5 x Rate of fire -- 13 s Rough volley (one gun, Multifreq) = 126 EM, 90 Thermal (we'll say 210 total for easy numbers) Rough DPS (one gun) = 16.1
Yes, railguns (and hybrids in general) still need work.
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Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
488
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Posted - 2012.03.12 15:08:00 -
[13] - Quote
Keen Fallsword wrote: Its not funny to die in one shoot. Every of us want to have good fun in this game. Eve is very time consuming not because you are dying but because logistics takes so long. Good fight is about time. Fight is / was good because was long. "Logistics are on
Pro-tip: Alpha fleets work on the exact opposite principle of grunt once during sex, roll over, and fall asleep.
tl;dr
It means, if you take your time like quite a bit of foreplay, you ******* lose the game. Enemy can counter you, they win.
Why do they use alpha?
Make a c hecklist of several tasks. Now try to do them all at once. Notice nothing gets done, because you are all over the place (uncoordinated fire). Everyone focus on one task, check -> Done!, check -> Done!, rinse repeate. Its harder to counter OMGWTF BBQ DON'T HIT ME IN THE FACE! when a single enemy gets lite up all at once by 25 guys on 1 target then it is for 25 guys shooting 25 targets.
As for artillery. It doesn't matter, cause before their buff a few years back it was alpha Tachs and 425mm hybrids. Players will ALWAYS cooridinate their fire to systematicly eliminate their opponents. |
highonpop
Void.Tech BLACK-MARK
24
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Posted - 2012.03.12 15:33:00 -
[14] - Quote
You are thinking of "Alpha" as a game mechanic. like it is something that we turn on and off...
"Alpha" just means everyone shoot this target.... the only way to get rid of alpha is for everyone to shoot different targets.
"alpha" is just a side effective of everyone shooting the same target. Just like IRL if more than 1 person shoots the same thing at the same time, you will have a larger impact on the target. Just physics. |
Josef Stylin
University of Caille Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2012.03.12 15:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
This is the stupidest thread i've seen all day. |
Carmizan
DOCS RUFF RIDERS Free Beer.
15
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Posted - 2012.03.12 16:20:00 -
[16] - Quote
Keen Fallsword wrote:Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:You CAN'T remove alpha damage from the game. Alpha damage is simply a common term for "everybody fire all a the same time and hope the initial hit is enough to kill the guy". This occurs because every pilot usually has a different cycle time with the exception of the very first shot which always fires as soon as you click. The only way to do away with it would be to make guns fire at the end of the cycle instead of the beginning...this would not only be stupid but likely game breaking.
The solution to your problem is to make sure everybody is fitted well enough to survive a decent Alpha strike. If the enemy alpha's your best tank fit...well...they deserve it and bring a better tank fit. I was talking about ALPHA from Maelstroms / Artillery for me this weapon system is OPowered. Sorry !! I wasnt talking about alpha itself, because of coz you cant remove it from the game :) Everything else is OK I mean weapons systems. Rails, Lasers etc.. but projectiles .... And YES you CANT survive Alpha strike from Maelstroms or Tornadoes .. that's the point
So let me get this right.
You wish to scrap the only thing that makes Projectiles useful?
The only reason Maelstroms and Tornadoes are used is because they deal a massive blow in one hit. You would remove not only the use of these ships from the game, but make minmatar effectively a dead race.
Sorry no
Train you defence systems up.
As Josef Stylin said most stupidest thread today |
Keen Fallsword
Billionaires Club BLACK-MARK
38
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Posted - 2012.03.12 17:38:00 -
[17] - Quote
Josef Stylin wrote:This is the stupidest thread i've seen all day.
Why ? |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
81
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Posted - 2012.03.12 17:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
Keen Fallsword wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:You can't survive alpha strike from anything. It's ******* alpha strike. This is possibly the worst suggestion I have ever seen. why ? Because if you're in a single ship and you have a whole bunch of really strong ships shooting at you, you die. That's how it works anywhere. Support showing T2 and faction frequency crystal damage in the info window! |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
928
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Posted - 2012.03.12 17:45:00 -
[19] - Quote
Keen Fallsword wrote:Josef Stylin wrote:This is the stupidest thread i've seen all day. Why ?
Because it demonstrates a complete and utter lack of knowledge of the subject matter and a clear unwillingness/inability to sit down and think through the repercussions of an idea before posting it and claiming that you are solving a 'problem' (despite the fact that your 'problem' is, in fact, game mechanics working as intended). |
Keen Fallsword
Billionaires Club BLACK-MARK
38
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Posted - 2012.03.12 18:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
mxzf wrote:Keen Fallsword wrote:Josef Stylin wrote:This is the stupidest thread i've seen all day. Why ? Because it demonstrates a complete and utter lack of knowledge of the subject matter and a clear unwillingness/inability to sit down and think through the repercussions of an idea before posting it and claiming that you are solving a 'problem' (despite the fact that your 'problem' is, in fact, game mechanics working as intended).
Haha wtf are you talking about ? Im not talking about mechanics but Maelstrom.
In my post Alpha = Maelstrom. It was a shortcut ... Geeeeee relax Dude lol |
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Keen Fallsword
Billionaires Club BLACK-MARK
38
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Posted - 2012.03.12 18:37:00 -
[21] - Quote
Maelstrom guys not Alpha itself.
One more time. Im thinking that arty is OP thats all. Probobly volley is too big....
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Blatant Forum Alt
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.03.12 19:33:00 -
[22] - Quote
Keen Fallsword wrote:Maelstrom guys not Alpha itself.
One more time. Im thinking that arty is OP thats all. Probobly volley is too big....
I think we should remove Missiles from the game. Just get rid of them completely, they have no purpose.
Except by Missiles, I actually mean the Captains Quarters. Because, as Im sure you know, if you use one word in place of another, everyone will instantly know what you're on about. |
Leto Aramaus
Grimm Hounds
7
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Posted - 2012.03.12 19:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
Vertisce Soritenshi wrote:You CAN'T remove alpha damage from the game. Alpha damage is simply a common term for "everybody fire all a the same time and hope the initial hit is enough to kill the guy". This occurs because every pilot usually has a different cycle time with the exception of the very first shot which always fires as soon as you click. The only way to do away with it would be to make guns fire at the end of the cycle instead of the beginning...this would not only be stupid but likely game breaking.
Precisely.
OP, you need to think before you post.
"remove alpha"?
That literally just does not make ANY sense. Alpha means the amount of damage done in your first shot.
So, removing alpha would mean nobody could fire their guns, at all...
/surrounded by idiots
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Velicitia
Open Designs
772
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Posted - 2012.03.12 19:41:00 -
[24] - Quote
Keen Fallsword wrote:In my post Alpha = Maelstrom. It was a shortcut ... Geeeeee relax Dude lol
next time use the right ******* word so people know what you're talking about. like, oh, i dunno "Mael". |
mxzf
Shovel Bros
929
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Posted - 2012.03.12 19:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
Blatant Forum Alt wrote:Keen Fallsword wrote:Maelstrom guys not Alpha itself.
One more time. Im thinking that arty is OP thats all. Probobly volley is too big....
I think we should remove Missiles from the game. Just get rid of them completely, they have no purpose. Except by Missiles, I actually mean the Captains Quarters. Because, as Im sure you know, if you use one word in place of another, everyone will instantly know what you're on about.
This. If you mean Maelstrom, then say that, because it's not synonymous with Alpha.
And it's working as intended, there's nothing whatsoever wrong with Maelstroms right now, you simply don't like how they're being used. Get over it, because it won't change. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
773
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Posted - 2012.03.12 19:48:00 -
[26] - Quote
Blatant Forum Alt wrote:Keen Fallsword wrote:Maelstrom guys not Alpha itself.
One more time. Im thinking that arty is OP thats all. Probobly volley is too big....
I think we should remove Missiles from the game. Just get rid of them completely, they have no purpose. Except by Missiles, I actually mean the Captains Quarters. Because, as Im sure you know, if you use one word in place of another, everyone will instantly know what you're on about.
+1 for adding Missiles to Captain's Quarters... |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
152
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Posted - 2012.03.12 22:29:00 -
[27] - Quote
The problem, if there is one, is in how artillery is designed and that it's simply way too efficient. "Alpha" is just a generic term that in EVE context means the first volley. Unless you remove weapons, there will always be a first volley.
No fix is possible, imo. Due to economies of scale, if you tone down alpha damage, all you will get is that alpha fleets require a few more ships to get the job done. This is EVE, we can always add more ships. There's no way around that. I'm personally in favor of a kind of SOASE style mitigation that goes up the more people are shooting at you (debris from previous attacks interfere with later weapons attacks, etc. perfectly reasonable and actually a large concern in RL laser weapons) to make fights more dynamic and engaging for all pilots in a fleet, but even that won't eliminate alpha at the large fleet scale. Any and all changes will only push the required size of an alpha fleet higher; it can never be eliminated. |
Nylith Empyreal
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
11
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Posted - 2012.03.12 22:45:00 -
[28] - Quote
Taking reality out of check adding diminishing returns to number of ships firing at once on one target would reduce alpha and perhaps add segmented call outs for distributed alphas. In one sense you'll see more than everyone's lasers firing at one target to multiple for some visual appeal. Possibly add more dynamics to primary targetS, but this would **** up tanking ratios and trying to get rid of logistics / capitals. Everything would need tweaking for the sake of visuals, though I personally wouldn't mind this, even if it's just visuals, it possibly gives a more epic feel to battles.
But like I said tanks would need tweaking, EHP would deffinately need tweaking, and repping would need tweaking, leaving dmg out the equation a moment. Honestly looking at it, it would be alot of balancing time for such a thing to be considered for the sake of visual appeal of fleets. But I dunno, I stick to small gangs, and all I ever see of large scale is people zoomed WAY the **** out, so the visuals wouldn't matter. It may make small scale more interesting / dynamic.
I'm not for or against, there is other **** that needs balancing first before we change it's entirety. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
154
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Posted - 2012.03.12 23:00:00 -
[29] - Quote
Agreed, tanks and RR would totally need tweaking. Logi's in particular are way too high if that was implemented now. But, on the whole, it would make ECM, target painters (possibly using them to negate this issue and making minnie ewar far more useful), fleet composition and local tanks all far more involved in most battles. A good idea in the long run, but a lot of work to be sure. |
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