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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
43
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Posted - 2011.09.12 10:57:00 -
[91] - Quote
while im against CCP nerfing the sandbox, if they are going to **** with ship swapping for whatever ******** reasons, change it so you cannot re-dock in a station while aggressed as well, as that fits the stupid reasoning you give for the Orca change.
Lets see you try and maintain consitency with your decisions please
if you dont make this Orca change apply to all ships in all sec systems then it just shows you up as catering to whiny carebears that clog up your petitions inbox because of their lack of understatnding on how the game works |
Pod Amarr
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
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Posted - 2011.09.12 11:03:00 -
[92] - Quote
Barakkus wrote:lolz, people might actually have to fight the fight they pick now in highsec.
This Now fix the station and neutral RR
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Choco Case
No more Neon
1
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Posted - 2011.09.12 11:15:00 -
[93] - Quote
I consider myself a carebear but I honestly think it is a shame that such inventive gameplay got nerfed. Mission runners (edit: or anyone) should not be pampered, they should learn the tricks and adapt.
"EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world; it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world."
This is what makes the game fascinating, what happened to this statement? |
Cyniac
Twilight Star Rangers Black Thorne Alliance
3
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Posted - 2011.09.12 11:35:00 -
[94] - Quote
Oops.... neurons misfired - just ignore this. |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
17
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Posted - 2011.09.12 12:31:00 -
[95] - Quote
I still don't see why you didn't go with the simpler solution:
When a pilot with an aggression timer attempts to access the orca's ship hangar, the Orca pilot should receive a prompt warning them that they will receive aggression for assisting if this action is allowed. If they allow the pilot to access the hangar, slap the Orca pilot with the aggression as well.
Not really any different than applying remote reps, tbh. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
10
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Posted - 2011.09.12 15:03:00 -
[96] - Quote
Tarsas Phage wrote:
It's not an abuse if the game lets you do it.
It's not a crime if there are no laws against it!
Famous last words used throughout history.
Just because there are no laws explicitly worded against me creating a super race of radioactive gerbils in an attempt to take over the world does not mean I will avoid being prosecuted for unleashing an army of tiny, furry, and extremely violent animals on the countryside.
CCP did not intend for the Orca to be used as a way to circumvent aggression mechanics and CONCORD in high security space and they finally made a few tweaks towards preventing just that.
You really do not understand this ^ ? ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
4
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Posted - 2011.09.12 19:48:00 -
[97] - Quote
Mendolus wrote:
CCP did not intend for the Orca to be used as a way to circumvent aggression mechanics and CONCORD in high security space and they finally made a few tweaks towards preventing just that.
You really do not understand this ^ ?
Explain to me: How does the Orca allow one to 'circumvent CONCORD' in high sec space? How does this 'tweak' stop a player from avoiding CONCORD? Your statement makes me think you have a superficial understanding of the issue.
You think the Orca was intended merely to be massive jet can for miners - or an unscannable high EHP transport for traders?
Do you think it was intended for people to move cargo around in Orcas without anyone being able to know what is carried within? Cargo scanning mods don't work for some reason. Further, items in the Orca's Corp hangars/SMB are destroyed 100% of the time, rather than having a 50% chance of dropping, as all other mods and items.
Seems odd that this Orca 'bug' hasn't been fixed, despite the recent 'gate customs' modification.
- Oh wait, that bug-fix would help suicide gankers....guess there is NO chance that will happen. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
10
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Posted - 2011.09.12 20:43:00 -
[98] - Quote
I understand the situation just fine, it is my laziness in corroborating my terminology that suffers.
Frankly I give a flying rat's arse about it to begin with, I am just pointing out that CCP redressed the role of the Orca to better fit the intended uses they so desired for it.
Pretty simply really.
Arguing that they are somehow limiting us is trivial, they decide what roles and uses they want out of ships when they design them, if they do not like what we do beyond those means, they nerf or remove it, true story.
Some of you guys seem to be under the impression that this is YOUR game and not CCP's.
You are grossly mistaken.
Whatever changes they make, we get to live with, because this is THEIR game, and if they do not want outlaws having an easy time of using an Orca's SMA for their activities in high security space, they will nerf or remove the ability to do so, period. ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the Apocalypse, i.e. the Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
James Arget
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
3
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Posted - 2011.09.12 21:36:00 -
[99] - Quote
This feels like a half-assed fix that will irritate both sides.
Either remove store and board functiosn while under agression in both high and low sec space as well as boarding while in over security space (outlaw, near outlaw in high sec) ,or leave it the hell alone.
There's a half dozen boarding/storing tricks people use Orcas for, such as putting juicy bait on a highsec gate in lowsec, then storing it and warping off after being scrambled. Or an outlaw grabbing a gank Brutix out in 1.0 sec space to nail that hulk who may not find it terribly strange to see a mining support ship in an asteroid belt.
Initially, this seemed like a great idea. I still think that on the whole it is a good change, but this could have been far more comprehensive or better thought through. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
4
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Posted - 2011.09.12 21:56:00 -
[100] - Quote
Mendolus wrote:I understand the situation just fine, it is my laziness in corroborating my terminology that suffers.
Whatever changes they make, we get to live with, because this is THEIR game, and if they do not want outlaws having an easy time of using an Orca's SMA for their activities in high security space, they will nerf or remove the ability to do so, period.
See, I still think you don't understand the issue. Lazy terminology again?
Outlaws (-5.0 to -10 characters) use Orcas for suicide-gank purposes, and this patch will do nothing to prevent their use of Orcas in such a way.
'Ninjas' by definition cannot be outlaws, as their activities are built around theft and encouraging mission runners to shoot at them. The aggressor is ALWAYS the Mission Bear. Orcas merely give a ninja the ability to 'upgrade' from a frigate to a battlecruiser, without having to leave the mission space (and lose warp jamming) to do it.
Take away the ability to effectively swap ships, the ninja is left with:
Leave mission space. (CNR docks up after initiating combat) Trick CNR into shooting at a Hurricane. (good luck with that) Kill CNR with a frigate. (impossible unless CNR is unbelievably fail-fit)
Now, CCP botched this tweak, and it doesn't REALLY prevent ship swapping. But its clearly a step in the 'coddle carebear' direction. (Kind of like how mission items now respawn rapidly, making stealing them pointless.)
Believe it or not, blowing up multi-million and billion ISK ships is good for the game. Without ninja activity, those PVE boats have as much chance in dying in a LVL 4.....as I do making the US National Hockey team.
And using ships outside their 'intended' role is a good thing in the sandbox. Some people set up their Hulks with NOS and other aggressive mods and attempt to kill canflippers. Made for a classic Eve Youtube vid. |
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Aessaya
Fairlight Corp Rooks and Kings
6
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Posted - 2011.09.13 03:31:00 -
[101] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:I still don't see why you didn't go with the simpler solution:
When a pilot with an aggression timer attempts to access the orca's ship hangar, the Orca pilot should receive a prompt warning them that they will receive aggression for assisting if this action is allowed. If they allow the pilot to access the hangar, slap the Orca pilot with the aggression as well.
Not really any different than applying remote reps, tbh.
This is exactly what boggles my mind, tbh.
Pod Amarr wrote:Barakkus wrote:lolz, people might actually have to fight the fight they pick now in highsec. This Now fix the station and neutral RR I don't see anything wrong with neutral RR. Remote assisting someone with aggression flags transfers those flags onto the assisting person. Simple. War target or otherwise flagged person shoots you, gets assist from a neutral person, the person gets same flags as the person he is assisting, now there's nothing stopping you from kicking their asses as well. Problems? But then again, let's not derail the thread. Ah, you seek meaning?-áThen listen to the music, not the song. |
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
4
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Posted - 2011.09.13 04:49:00 -
[102] - Quote
Aessaya wrote: I don't see anything wrong with neutral RR. Remote assisting someone with aggression flags transfers those flags onto the assisting person. Simple. War target or otherwise flagged person shoots you, gets assist from a neutral person, the person gets same flags as the person he is assisting, now there's nothing stopping you from kicking their asses as well. Problems? But then again, let's not derail the thread.
The issue with neutral RR isn't the flags. The complaint, I believe, is that RRing ships are allowed to rep, then dock up instantly without a timer, making the flags somewhat meaningless.
Personally, I think that ships should be prohibited from docking/jumping if they are warp scrambled/disrupted/webbed - IMO, it would fix station games.
EDIT: Throw in ship-swapping there too. If warp jammed, no docking with Orcas either. |
Kaeda Maxwell
Black Rebel Rifter Club
2
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Posted - 2011.09.13 06:56:00 -
[103] - Quote
Aessaya wrote:Aamrr wrote:I still don't see why you didn't go with the simpler solution:
When a pilot with an aggression timer attempts to access the orca's ship hangar, the Orca pilot should receive a prompt warning them that they will receive aggression for assisting if this action is allowed. If they allow the pilot to access the hangar, slap the Orca pilot with the aggression as well.
Not really any different than applying remote reps, tbh. This is exactly what boggles my mind, tbh.
And it's exactly why I think CCP is just out to make hi-sec ganking harder, because think for one second if timers transferred to the Orca who else would be risking Orca's? Indeed miners dealing with can flippers. Can flippers would be quite happy with these agressed Orca's...
Furthermore having aggression transfer to the Orca wouldn't affect ninja's that much, most ninja's ship scan their targets and let me tell you the odds of a mission runner having a point are slim, between no point to point the Orca and the option to fit ecm/cloaks it would mostly just hinder the ability to fit a full rack of skirmish links to the Orca at the the bonus of possibly having the missioner shoot at the Orca getting it out and coming back with a second gank ship...
Between breaking my convenience (I can still use the Orca like I did before just involves more clicks) or adding a timer to my Orca for ninja purposes I'd have preferred if CCP had gone for the option of transferring the aggression timer to the Orca if you use the SMB while agressed. It would make more sense and affect all professions equally and thus be fairer. |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
36
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Posted - 2011.09.13 07:03:00 -
[104] - Quote
Kaeda Maxwell wrote:[quote=Aessaya][quote=Aamrr]Between breaking my convenience (I can still use the Orca like I did before just involves more clicks) or adding a timer to my Orca for ninja purposes I'd have preferred if CCP had gone for the option of transferring the aggression timer to the Orca if you use the SMB while agressed. It would make more sense and affect all professions equally and thus be fairer.
I'd certainly support this.
Then again, I still think there should be a warning when you're going to rep a target that currently has an aggression timer (such as from can flipping). Presently, the logistics has no way of knowing whether they'll get aggression from doing it until they've actually done it. |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2011.09.13 07:11:00 -
[105] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:Then again, I still think there should be a warning when you're going to rep a target that currently has an aggression timer (such as from can flipping). Presently, the logistics has no way of knowing whether they'll get aggression from doing it until they've actually done it.
I wonder when CCP will get around to fixing this [strikeout]exploit[/strikeout] loophole |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
36
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Posted - 2011.09.13 07:21:00 -
[106] - Quote
And on the subject of remote assistance and docking games...This isn't just a subject of out-of-corporation logistics. It's relevant to any nullsec station docking games as well. The thing is, you can't just slap an aggression timer on a logistics pilot that reps someone with a timer. Here's why:
A gang must be able to withdraw from a fight. Presently, if a battleship shoots something, they can cease fire and still run their local tank modules while they wait out their aggression. They can shoot something and receive remote reps while they wait out their aggression. And when the timer is done, the gang (logistics included) can safely dock or use the jump gate. The important part here is that you can still tank while the timers tick down -- you just can't undertake offensive action.
Now suppose that remote assistance incurred an aggression timer in the normal sense. The logistics pilot would receive an aggression timer for repping an aggressed pilot. This timer would quickly spread to the entire logistics chain via their capacitor transfer modules. If these incurred aggression in the normal sense, then these timers would be continually refreshed and the gang would not be able to withdraw without stopping their tanks for a full 60 seconds. I shouldn't have to explain why that isn't a survivable option.
Suppose, on the other hand, that remote assistance didn't give you a fresh timer, but rather gave you a timer equal to that of the pilot you're assisting. That is, repping a pilot that hasn't shot anyone for 10 seconds would give you a 50 second timer. This timer would still spread among the logistics gang -- but it wouldn't be refreshed every time a module cycled.
If the timers worked as I described, where you inherited the target's timer, the logistics gang would be able to dock or jump out at precisely 60 seconds from their gang's last combat action -- which prevents logistics pilots from being able to dock up immediately, as described, but also allows the gang as a whole to cease offensive action and still withdraw effectively.
This seems to be the most reasonable compromise to the complaints of remote assistance, from hisec to nullsec. |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2011.09.13 07:24:00 -
[107] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:And on the subject of remote assistance and docking games...This isn't just a subject of out-of-corporation logistics. It's relevant to any nullsec station docking games as well. The thing is, you can't just slap an aggression timer on a logistics pilot that reps someone with a timer. Here's why:
A gang must be able to withdraw from a fight. Presently, if a battleship shoots something, they can cease fire and still run their local tank modules while they wait out their aggression. They can shoot something and receive remote reps while they wait out their aggression. And when the timer is done, the gang (logistics included) can safely dock or use the jump gate. The important part here is that you can still tank while the timers tick down -- you just can't undertake offensive action.
Now suppose that remote assistance incurred an aggression timer in the normal sense. The logistics pilot would receive an aggression timer for repping an aggressed pilot. This timer would quickly spread to the entire logistics chain via their capacitor transfer modules. If these incurred aggression in the normal sense, then these timers would be continually refreshed and the gang would not be able to withdraw without stopping their tanks for a full 60 seconds. I shouldn't have to explain why that isn't a survivable option.
Suppose, on the other hand, that remote assistance didn't give you a fresh timer, but rather gave you a timer equal to that of the pilot you're assisting. That is, repping a pilot that hasn't shot anyone for 10 seconds would give you a 50 second timer. This timer would still spread among the logistics gang -- but it wouldn't be refreshed every time a module cycled.
If the timers worked as I described, where you inherited the target's timer, the logistics gang would be able to dock or jump out at precisely 60 seconds from their gang's last combat action -- which prevents logistics pilots from being able to dock up immediately, as described, but also allows the gang as a whole to cease offensive action and still withdraw effectively.
This seems to be the most reasonable compromise to the complaints of remote assistance, from hisec to nullsec.
that should work |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
36
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Posted - 2011.09.13 07:34:00 -
[108] - Quote
I could make a petition on the assembly hall to that effect. Do you think it would be well-received? |
Barbie D0ll
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2011.09.13 07:36:00 -
[109] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:I could make a petition on the assembly hall to that effect. Do you think it would be well-received? i believe so |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
36
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Posted - 2011.09.13 07:52:00 -
[110] - Quote
Alright. I've posted my proposal. Here's hoping that it gets some positive responses.
The proposal can be found here. |
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Kitanga
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.09.13 15:41:00 -
[111] - Quote
park your orca inside a Worm Hole on said system where you are doing your highsec shenanigans. |
Solomar Espersei
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
63
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Posted - 2011.09.13 16:25:00 -
[112] - Quote
GM Haggis wrote:...A method of using ships with Ship Maintenance Arrays in order to avoid combat was recently patched out...
If it's the "avoid combat part" can we do something about mission runners and their blingy ships who shoot and then dock up? Carebears avoiding combats that they start is all well and good I guess. Recruiting is OPEN Please join our public channel The Ninja Dojo for more info |
Bladewise
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
4
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Posted - 2011.09.13 16:54:00 -
[113] - Quote
No docking while pointed IMO. C'mon CCP, are you just hugging carebear nuttsack or are you listening to the entire community? Regardless of what pea-brained mission runners say, we do not want WoW in space, all the people who do will be jumping ship to World of Star Wars soon anyways. |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
36
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Posted - 2011.09.13 17:02:00 -
[114] - Quote
*shrugs* If a person has successfully waited out the 60 second aggression timer without taking hostile action, I think they've earned the right to jump or dock. You know, subject to the change I proposed earlier regarding remote assistance.
That said, the 60 second timer might need to be adjusted for certain ship classes (capital ships come to mind), but the idea is sound at least in the core concept. |
Noot Khorhar
1st Mining and Industrial Logistics Foundation
3
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Posted - 2011.09.13 17:38:00 -
[115] - Quote
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Believe it or not, blowing up multi-million and billion ISK ships is good for the game. Without ninja activity, those PVE boats have as much chance in dying in a LVL 4.....as I do making the US National Hockey team.
this. we are ccps active isk sink which they weakend now |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
36
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Posted - 2011.09.13 17:43:00 -
[116] - Quote
Actually, you're an isk faucet. When a ship blows up, isk enters the economy through the insurance system, even if the ship is itself not insured (you always get the base 40% payout). Now, you're an asset sink, which is something quite different entirely, but you're certainly not an isk sink.
Basically, you're adding isk to the economy and removing things for people to buy -- both of which have an inflationary effect. |
Solomar Espersei
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
63
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Posted - 2011.09.13 18:53:00 -
[117] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:Actually, you're an isk faucet. When a ship blows up, isk enters the economy through the insurance system, even if the ship is itself not insured (you always get the base 40% payout).
You might want to consider the faction BS and marauders that we hunt. It's those kills that we're after.
"HerpDerp the Mission Bear buys Navy Raven then blings it out with something like 1 Bil in faction mods. In a moment of rage, he shoots ninja who then destroys 80-90% or more of the value of the hull when he is able to get a point & DPS ship on him. In the ensuing explosion, 500 mil of the faction mods are destroyed."
That's about 1 Bil taken out of the economy each time we shoot a bling bear. CCP obviously wants to protect the bears so less of that ISK will be leaving the economy, but by God we'll keep trying. ;)
Aamrr wrote:*shrugs* If a person has successfully waited out the 60 second aggression timer without taking hostile action, I think they've earned the right to jump or dock. Dude, they're USUALLY aligned when they shoot so off they go and if not, well, you've got this ridiculous SMA nerf bat to deal with so they wait for you to warp away, then warp to station, wait a few seconds, then dock up.
So in essence, CCP's stated reason for nerfing the SMA NOW allows Mission Runners "to avoid combat" where before ninjas were using it to escalate the hostilities, often against multiple combatants.
Recruiting is OPEN Please join our public channel The Ninja Dojo for more info |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
36
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Posted - 2011.09.13 19:01:00 -
[118] - Quote
No, that's about 1 billion isk in assets that have been removed from the economy. More isk is present after your activities than was present before. There's just fewer actual assets present in the game. Which is precisely what I said.
Fewer goods, more currency. Inflationary effect.
As to the pilots firing at you while they're aligned...life as a ninja must be tough. God, I think I'm almost shedding a tear for you. Wow, you guys are good at this... |
Bladewise
Suddenly Ninjas Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
4
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Posted - 2011.09.13 21:06:00 -
[119] - Quote
They just nerfed scanning again. |
Karah Serrigan
The Hatchery
0
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Posted - 2011.09.13 22:28:00 -
[120] - Quote
Pleniers wrote:Since the workaround as already been posted, I wanted only to confirm (well, a careber on a mega confirmed it really) it works with no bigger problem, so Orca is still the same option to ninja. Just a small note. Remeber to jetisson the crap you salvage/loot from your tackle ship BEFORE entering the PVP ship I lost my precious tackle ship because when I was about to scoop it I got a "Hell no, you got crap on cargo hold" notification. Tks CCP for making me click about 6 more times, taking a whole lot of 3 seconds more to make the exchange.
MonthKillsISK (B)LossesISK (B)Efficiency September, 2011241.89180.8369.54% August, 201128946.50702.6094.71% July, 201119125.43692.3391.60%
http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10629281 http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=10629198 PvP so hard when you cant scoop your shiny t3 :( |
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