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Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
354
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Posted - 2012.03.12 15:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
As the ship balancing devblog and accompanying thread mentioned, The tier system will be removed and replaced with a role system
The first ships up on the block seem to be the Tech 1 Frigates and Destroyers.
So, it's got me wondering what sorts of changes and uses these buffed frigates will have. While top-tier frigates (Rifter, Punisher, Merlin, Incursus) and the destroyers have roles for intermediate players already, most of the other frigates do not. There are of course certain frigates that do have a strong role in PvP or PvE. I know the Vigil is extremely useful as tackle, and the Kestrel burns through L1 missions
Will we see even better entry level tackle choices with the Slasher or Atron? Will we see a significant use for the Inquisitor? Will the Griffin or Sentinel be annoying as f*ck? Will the lowest level mining frigates be re-purposed to avoid near uselessness compared to dedicated mining ships
Discuss/Troll
EDIT: Tried to post links, but it kept saying "The input cannot contain HTML". Bleh. |
Buzzy Warstl
Huron Syndicate
51
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Posted - 2012.03.12 15:14:00 -
[2] - Quote
Speculation on the base they will specialize from: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=79996&find=unread
Specialized versions would give up portions of that base for specific capabilities. |
Artemis Ahab
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2012.03.12 16:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
There are tech 1 frigates other than the rifter? |
Skorpynekomimi
Omega Vector
132
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Posted - 2012.03.12 17:47:00 -
[4] - Quote
I'd love to see a use for the Slasher other than with newbs saving up for a bigger ship. Or for a Burst other than disposa-cyno, newbie mining, or tripping rat spawns in that one mission.
I dislike the idea of a one-size-fits-all frigate, though. Moar flavour plz. |
Kid Chaos
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
17
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Posted - 2012.03.12 19:49:00 -
[5] - Quote
Personally I've always liked the look and feel of the Executioner, it's just not good. It's a super speedy laser ship with a bonus to damage. Theoretically that means that it will fill the same role as a Rifter, except that it will have worse tracking on a more cap intensive weapon system.
The upside is that Scorch S combined with that kind of speed could get really, really fun. As a fan of laser ships in general, I'm am VERY hopeful about the Executioner and Omen being improved to provide laser platforms prior to the Harbinger.
I am also of the opinion that one of the T1 Gallente frigates should have all but 1 of the highslots removed, and become a 20m^3 drone capacity, trainer drone boat with a 5% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per level.
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Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
152
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Posted - 2012.03.12 20:28:00 -
[6] - Quote
Artemis Ahab wrote:There are tech 1 frigates other than the rifter? This why they're being rebalanced. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
152
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Posted - 2012.03.12 20:36:00 -
[7] - Quote
It should be pretty simple, most of the frigates have pretty defined roles already. Except for minmatar, which has the role of "Rifter" and "not Rifter."
Remember there's really only 3 combat frigates per race, plus ewar and mning, so it's not that complex. For example:
Amarr: Punisher: Tank Inquisitor: Gank Executioner: Tackle
Gallente: Tristan: Tank Incursus: Gank Atron: Tackle note that tristan and incursus could reasonably be swapped, they are not that clear defined as amarr ships are right now, but I think Incursus for gank because it matches up with the gallente blaster focus.
Caldari: Merlin: Tank Kestrel: Gank Condor: Tackle
Minnie: Rifter: Tank Breacher: Gank Slasher: Tackle
I'm really hoping they keep it that simple... trying to do things like Tristan=multiple weapon synthethis gank platform and Incursus=blaster gank platform will just end up wonky. Like what they have now. |
FT Diomedes
Factio Paucorum
4
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Posted - 2012.03.12 21:16:00 -
[8] - Quote
What role does "tank" have in frigate class ships?
Each race should have one ship that is straightforward to use, whether for new pilots or more experienced ones. The model here is the current Rifter. This ship class should have two useful bonuses to that race's turret weapons system and a balanced slot layout. Other ships in this class should be the Executioner, Condor, and Atron. Obviously, this should involve changing bonuses a bit to make them more useful.
Then, each race gets a ship that utilizes missiles. The model here is the Kestrel. Other ships in this class are the Breacher and Inquisitor. For Gallente, the Tristan becomes a missile ship. Notably, all these ships turn into stealth bombers at the T2 level. This class gets extra high slots to fill with launchers and relatively few mid slots (never less than two, however). Each ship gets a racial damage bonus and a ROF bonus.
Then each race gets a ship that does racial e-war. Mid slots should be plentiful in this class. The model is the Griffin. Other ships in this class are the Crucifier, Maulus, and Vigil.
Then each race gets a prober. Ships in this class are the Magnate, Heron, Imicus, Probe
Then each race gets a mining ship, with a secondary role of frigate class logistics ship. Thus, the same hull can be useful to a brand new miner looking to get into the game, while having a relevance to a more experienced pilot as well. Tormentor, Bantam, Navitas, Burst.
The final ship for each race offers flexibility in that race's style. Flexibility, of course, is CCP's trademarked way of saying "split weapons system." Gallente and Amarr get turret and drone damage bonuses. Caldari and Minmatar get turret and missile damage bonuses. Ships in this class are the Incursus, Slasher, Merlin, and Punisher. This class is also faster and easier to fit than the other classes - they make the best tacklers for lower skilled players. Once a player trains the necessary skills, they offer the same damage potential as the more straightforward combat ships. |
Artemis Ahab
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
4
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Posted - 2012.03.12 23:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:
Inquisitor: Gank
Kestrel: Gank
Breacher: Gank
I'm sensing a pattern here, and not a particularly good one imo. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
154
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Posted - 2012.03.12 23:45:00 -
[10] - Quote
FT Diomedes wrote:What role does "tank" have in frigate class ships?
It should be obvious if you understand frigates. It just about where the emphasis goes and what the bonuses and fitting space will be like. Punisher or Merlin for example. Are they worthless? No. Are they pain trains? Also no. And modified for racial style; rifter is more likely to be an all around combat frigate, Puni is more likely to be a brick that fights by attrition. And don't say that Rifter is not tanky now with MSE or triple trimark fits being possible. |
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OfBalance
Caldari State
158
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Posted - 2012.03.12 23:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
Artemis Ahab wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:
Inquisitor: Gank
Kestrel: Gank
Breacher: Gank
I'm sensing a pattern here, and not a particularly good one imo.
Oh I get it, they're all launcher platforms. |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
163
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Posted - 2012.03.12 23:52:00 -
[12] - Quote
Use the system CCP announced instead to class them Combat ships - Damage and tank Attack vessels - Damage and mobility Bombardment ships - Long range (missiles only?) Support vessels - EWAR and Logi Industrial ships - Mining & transport |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
164
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Posted - 2012.03.13 00:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Amarr Cruicifier - Support vessel Executioner - Attack Vessel Inquisitor - Bombardment ship Magnate - Probing ship Punisher - Combat Ship Tormentor - Industrial
Caldari Bantam - Industrial Condor - Bombardment ship Griffin - Support vessel Heron - Probing ship Kestrel - Combat ship Merlin - Attack vessel
Gallente Atron - Attack vessel Imicus - Probing ship Incursus - Combat ship Maulus - Support vessel Navitas - Industrial Tristan - Bombardment?
Minmatar Breacher - Bombardment ship Burst - Industrial Probe - Probing ship Rifter - Combat ship Slasher - Attack vessel Vigil - Support vessel |
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
74
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Posted - 2012.03.13 04:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
Nalha Saldana wrote: Probe - Probing ship
Har |
Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
354
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Posted - 2012.03.13 05:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Nalha Saldana wrote: Caldari Bantam - Industrial Condor - Attack vessel Griffin - Support vessel Heron - Probing ship Kestrel - Bombardment ship Merlin - Combat vessel
Fixed how I think it should be.
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Kaikka Carel
White syndicate BattleStar Alliance
12
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Posted - 2012.03.13 06:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Now what specs each of them needs?
I always believed inties needed one extra medium slot for sensor boosters/more tackle. |
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries Alliance not Found
21
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Posted - 2012.03.13 08:29:00 -
[17] - Quote
Kid Chaos wrote:I am also of the opinion that one of the T1 Gallente frigates should have all but 1 of the highslots removed, and become a 20m^3 drone capacity, trainer drone boat with a 5% bonus to drone hitpoints and damage per level.
The drone trainer frigate only has two highslots as it is, sacrificing one of those for 5m3 of dronebay and finding something else to be the Astrometrics frigate seems somewhat convoluted and pointless... |
Froggy Storm
Angels Of Death EVE Mayhem.
2
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Posted - 2012.03.13 09:07:00 -
[18] - Quote
Id like to se a frig/dessy sized logi ship. Get some market for those c type small rr modules out there. Not to mention opening up a whole world of fun doing L3/4s with a gang of T1 frigs like its a miniature incusion fleet.
Something like 4h 3m 2l for three Rr a cap xfer in highs A capboost battery and charger in mids and two lows for either a plate dc local rep or more cap relays. |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
164
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Posted - 2012.03.13 11:19:00 -
[19] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:Nalha Saldana wrote: Caldari Bantam - Industrial Condor - Attack vessel Griffin - Support vessel Heron - Probing ship Kestrel - Bombardment ship Merlin - Combat vessel
Fixed how I think it should be.
Hmm that might be but the condor have a range bonus which makes it the only one of these with the ability to be a bombardment ship. The Kestrel is kinda tanky for a frig so it matches the Combat ships description. Tho all the other bombardment ships are also the races stealth bomber so maybe the Kestrel will be it too. Its all up to ccp becaue these slots and bonuses will change. |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
164
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Posted - 2012.03.13 11:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Froggy Storm wrote:Id like to se a frig/dessy sized logi ship. Get some market for those c type small rr modules out there. Not to mention opening up a whole world of fun doing L3/4s with a gang of T1 frigs like its a miniature incusion fleet.
Something like 4h 3m 2l for three Rr a cap xfer in highs A capboost battery and charger in mids and two lows for either a plate dc local rep or more cap relays.
Nah a logi frigate should be a T2 ship that is actually able to tank at the same time. Maybe launch new frigates and the t1s can be logi too but a bit bad :P |
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Froggy Storm
Angels Of Death EVE Mayhem.
3
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Posted - 2012.03.13 11:39:00 -
[21] - Quote
Nalha Saldana wrote:Froggy Storm wrote:Id like to se a frig/dessy sized logi ship. Get some market for those c type small rr modules out there. Not to mention opening up a whole world of fun doing L3/4s with a gang of T1 frigs like its a miniature incusion fleet.
Something like 4h 3m 2l for three Rr a cap xfer in highs A capboost battery and charger in mids and two lows for either a plate dc local rep or more cap relays. Nah a logi frigate should be a T2 ship that is actually able to tank at the same time. Maybe launch new frigates and the t1s can be logi too but a bit bad :P
Maybe a new T2 Dessy job as a frig tender. Give it only2 turret mounts with the rest utility for reps and transfers. Enough tank to last a few min underfire and or get away. Could revolutionize the AF gang model with a smallis fastish logi.
And who doesn't want to see frig gangs back as a common thing
Do the role and dest bonuses the same as the T2 logi cruiser of same type. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
215
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Posted - 2012.03.13 11:53:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nalha Saldana wrote:Katrina Oniseki wrote:Nalha Saldana wrote: Caldari Bantam - Industrial Condor - Attack vessel Griffin - Support vessel Heron - Probing ship Kestrel - Bombardment ship Merlin - Combat vessel
Fixed how I think it should be. Hmm that might be but the condor have a range bonus which makes it the only one of these with the ability to be a bombardment ship. The Kestrel is kinda tanky for a frig so it matches the Combat ships description. Tho all the other bombardment ships are also the races stealth bomber so maybe the Kestrel will be it too. Its all up to ccp becaue these slots and bonuses will change.
I prefer the fixed descriptions above.
The Condor may have a range bonus, but it's also easily the fastest Caldari frigate, and hence the obvious choice for an attack-type vessel. The Kestrel isn't tanky at all, really, certainly not when compared to the Merlin at least. The ability to fit four SMLs on it would make it the archetypical "bombardment" ship, although clearly it needs more CPU.
The Merlin is the classic all-round combat vessel, but with a Caldari theme - so slowish but agile, with flexibility of range and a solid tank. |
Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
164
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Posted - 2012.03.13 15:33:00 -
[23] - Quote
Froggy Storm wrote:Nalha Saldana wrote:Froggy Storm wrote:Id like to se a frig/dessy sized logi ship. Get some market for those c type small rr modules out there. Not to mention opening up a whole world of fun doing L3/4s with a gang of T1 frigs like its a miniature incusion fleet.
Something like 4h 3m 2l for three Rr a cap xfer in highs A capboost battery and charger in mids and two lows for either a plate dc local rep or more cap relays. Nah a logi frigate should be a T2 ship that is actually able to tank at the same time. Maybe launch new frigates and the t1s can be logi too but a bit bad :P Maybe a new T2 Dessy job as a frig tender. Give it only2 turret mounts with the rest utility for reps and transfers. Enough tank to last a few min underfire and or get away. Could revolutionize the AF gang model with a smallis fastish logi. And who doesn't want to see frig gangs back as a common thing Do the role and dest bonuses the same as the T2 logi cruiser of same type.
I dont think destroyers fit the role of logi because they are designed to have a lot high slots and be all offensive, assault vessel style. A dessie logi would have maybe 6-8 light reps, unstable cap and not much tank which would not be what frigate gangs need.
I would rather see something like a frigate with 3-4 higs, 5mids, 3 low (and swap mid/low for armor tanks) where you have 2 reps capstable for minmatar/gallente with a spare high for unstable reps etc and 2-3 reps + 1-2 cap transfer for amarr/caldari. They should have a bonus making them able to use medium sized reps just like todays logi can use large reps. These could then be paired up with the t1 cruiser logis who use medium sized transfers and reps. |
Thelron
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
19
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Posted - 2012.03.13 18:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
One trap I'm hoping they don't fall into is the notion that each race needs a frigate to use X. So, the idea of "industry, exploration, support, attack/tackle, bombardment (really, long-range fire), and general combat," while keeping with the racial themes on how to go about doing those things. To me this would be especially true in the "bombardment" category, where rather than just 4x missile boats it would be far more interesting to have the Caldari apply the Kestrel, but the Gallente hull does get turned into a drone boat, Minnies a specialized arty platform (maybe RoF bonus but lackluster agility, so it doens't turn into an AC-based murderboat), and similar for Amarr with beams. All of them end up having long-ranged (for frigates) weapons with good damage output, but with more variety than a Kestrel, a Kestrel that looks like a Gallente ship, a Kestrel that looks like an Amarran ship, and a Kestrel that looks like a Minnie ship.
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Nalha Saldana
Eternity INC. Goonswarm Federation
164
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Posted - 2012.03.13 18:34:00 -
[25] - Quote
Thelron wrote:One trap I'm hoping they don't fall into is the notion that each race needs a frigate to use X. So, the idea of "industry, exploration, support, attack/tackle, bombardment (really, long-range fire), and general combat," while keeping with the racial themes on how to go about doing those things. To me this would be especially true in the "bombardment" category, where rather than just 4x missile boats it would be far more interesting to have the Caldari apply the Kestrel, but the Gallente hull does get turned into a drone boat, Minnies a specialized arty platform (maybe RoF bonus but lackluster agility, so it doens't turn into an AC-based murderboat), and similar for Amarr with beams. All of them end up having long-ranged (for frigates) weapons with good damage output, but with more variety than a Kestrel, a Kestrel that looks like a Gallente ship, a Kestrel that looks like an Amarran ship, and a Kestrel that looks like a Minnie ship.
I agree that its nice to have differences between the races but it also makes sense that frigates, which are the baseline to all ships have all types for newer players to play around with. This is not the case with any other class of ships and im fine with it. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
865
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Posted - 2012.03.13 18:57:00 -
[26] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:Will we see even better entry level tackle choices with the Slasher or Atron?
If there's one T1 frigate that I think is completely impossible to catch by other means than smarties activation on gates is well this Atron, it's just a fumy speedy gonzalez this little thing. (so many high/low/null sec travels for lols with it)
But back on topic, as like every other frigate lacks of PG/CPU and slots to equip/fit stuff, so not worthy to use a ship that cant fit more than one overdrive and a long point with 0 tank or other mods (just for the example), probably in the hands of an older player but it's not their purpose, they should be easily capable of fit completely with T1 mods and low skills (lvl3's), actually they're not.
Making ships that fit a role rather than a silly "tier" stuff no one understands quite well the reason why whatsoever, it's a very good thing. One they are easier to identify and choose for a specific role because "x" role = "y" number of slots/pg/cpu, then change slots order high/med/low and base scan/mass/agility/speed to stick with racial aptitudes/lines.
Thing is that once you can fit a ship like T1 frigs for a specific task that will ask noobies a certain training for them and also piloting accordingly to their racial characteristics, then you start learn to pilot your ships from day 1, you have the same fitting abilities than any other race ship of the same type but it's your skilling and piloting knowledge that will make the difference.
I think this is much better as game basis than new players in rifters they can barely fit (and rifter is by far the frigate that you can completely fit) versus old players in faction fitted dramiels at 12Km/s. Of course this will still happen but, I hope, this will make a lot more ships be used and bring variety on the field rather than what I'm over tired of seeing witch is canes/drakes/maelstroms/abbadons/tengus/tornados and lokis.
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kyrv
hirr Against ALL Authorities
6
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Posted - 2012.03.15 21:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
How about this stupendous idea!
A number of harvested natural powers and wave forms from K-space in wormhole given to a frigate sphere launcher a specialised frigate which drops on of these effects the player within on given variables including the enemy!
Role class (idk, don't know anything about k-space)
-slowing effect -armour/shield effect -speed effect
-Blocker sphere launcher creates a negative force in the wake of the pilots ship catapulting him/her a hundred km's (can be calibrated with inertia to give different results) such a sphere would stop people from entering, like a force field?
-Sphere's which shrink which give off these effects worsen the positive/negative bonuses unless hit with energy transfers and upon which might cause a singularity (takes minutes/hours) which will connect to the closest cynosural field (open gates to hostile cyno's)
-a probe launcher that has the ability to power a constant field via transporters.
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bubble trout
Terra Corporation
2
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Posted - 2012.03.16 04:17:00 -
[28] - Quote
I am told to fly the rifter for PvP. It's a great ship. But, ......... it's the only ship? Due to the tier system it seems that way. Oh sure I can cross train, but I am limited sp-wise as a newb. Can't go 3-4 directions at once for T2 weapon systems plus all the core skills, and racial ship command skills I need to make fits really work
If ccp gets rid of the "tier" system it'd be awesome. We'd see the rifter as a good all rounder as we do today, but perhaps it fills the more of the "brawler" role. Maybe the slasher becomes a mini interceptor, and the breacher can be fit for either rockets or longer range missiles, both with the slots and pg/cpu to actually fit them well
Hopefully ccp does do away with the tier system, but also hopefully they don't embrace whole heartily the "roles" they laid out. Would be a shame to see them replace the restrictive tier system with a role system that locks each and every frig into one role and one way to fit it. An example of that would be giving the breacher a mid and low, with the pd/cpu to support it, yet give the damage bonus only to rockets, and some other stupid limitation, like a hyperionish low lock range preventing kiting fits with standard missiles. |
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