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Elsebeth Rhiannon
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2008.06.19 13:01:00 -
[31]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale The systems behind Factional Warfare basically just don't touch the War Declaration system, at least from a design point of view. This is both why you can dec militia player corps including those within your own militia (the war system doesn't see corps in a militia as any different from corps not in a militia) and why you can't dec the entire militia (it's not a corporation or an alliance and thus not a valid target).
True, Greyscale - but the main question of course is why does it not touch those?
-- Help us defend the Republic; join Gradient today. |
Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.19 14:06:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Originally by: Venkul Mul I see a little bug in the concept "We wardec the single corporation in the militia as a way to wardec the militia".
Doing so you get immunity from Concord and gateguns but keep immunity from the faction navy in the empire high sec. Something that is not reciprocal for the corporation you wardecced.
However you put it it is not right.
Blame CCP who says alliances cannot join the militias. Believe me, we would if we could.
While I feel your pain, the problem are non Role Play Alliances.
Executor corp: We are part of the Caldari militia
Other corps: What? Why? Ehy all our stuff is in Gallente/Minmatar space.
Executor corp CEO: Shut up I am Caldari and I decide. Obey me or you ar eout of the alliance
Other corps: But ...
Executor Corp CEO: We are all Caldari in spirit.
Other corps A: We will leave
Other corp B: Ok, nothing change in 0.0 for that
Other corp C: Calldari for the win
0.0 alliance break on the seams.
I think this is the Dev reasoning.
Your alliance was build around the thought of a pro-Matari Alliance, but a lot of other alliances were builded around the thought of 0.0 control. The simple fact that the CEO of the Executor corporation would decide the destiny of the whole alliance can be devastating.
I don't know if high sec POS in the wrong empire are attacked by faction navy, but even if they were immune from the navy, a Executor CEO choosing the wrong side (relatively to one of the corp in the alliance) could cause hundred of billion of isk in damage.
The only decent system would be to allow alliance to join the militias after a vote from all the alliance corporations and a serious waiting time to allow people deciding to leave the alliance the needed time to move stuff and reorganize themselves.
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Venkul Mul
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Posted - 2008.06.19 14:14:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Telemicus Thrace
Originally by: Venkul Mul I see a little bug in the concept "We wardec the single corporation in the militia as a way to wardec the militia".
Doing so you get immunity from Concord and gateguns but keep immunity from the faction navy in the empire high sec. Something that is not reciprocal for the corporation you wardecced.
However you put it it is not right.
Not correct. We still take standings hits shooting the militia so we will eventually have issues with the Amarr Navy (I use the term issue loosly). Those of us who don't already, we have spent years fighting the Amarr after all.
The corps we have war decced have the same immunity to gate guns and concord as we do. As with all war decs it's now open season for both sides.
The challange has been put down that these guys can make the dec mutual. That way we can both fight without fees. The ISK we save can be put towards deccing more militia corps.
I fail to see what is not right about it. We are paying to wage war on open supporters of the Amarr Empire. Just as we always have. It's not like we can even say this is picking on miners, the 24th Crusade have signed on for Faction Warfare.
If CCP want to set a mutual war between the 24th Crusade and the Ushra'Khan then they can. I'm all for that. This is the option presented to us, we are not going ignore the war we have been waiting for all these years simply because we have to pony up some ISK.
As you have always had wardec against you Amarrian Alliances enemies you don't have low security standing and you don't have low Amarr standing.
You are attacking a war target so you don't lose Amarr standing (unless you attack units in the militia outside the wardec).
You aren't attacked by Amarr Navy in Amarr space until you get your Amarr standing too low (but killing wardec targets don lower it).
Your enemies in the militia get attacked instantly by the Minmatar navy if they enter Minmatar high sec.
Fiends of your target in teh militia get Cocordokked if they hel the militia members you have wardecced.
So you have a big advantage: you can enter high sec Amarr space to hunt for your targets while you are almost totally secure in Minmatar space. That situation lack reciprocity in danger so it is not right.
Some better solution that the current situation should be found, but calling your solution "balanced" is a mockery of balance.
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Uzume Ame
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.19 14:27:00 -
[34]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale The systems behind Factional Warfare basically just don't touch the War Declaration system, at least from a design point of view. This is both why you can dec militia player corps including those within your own militia (the war system doesn't see corps in a militia as any different from corps not in a militia) and why you can't dec the entire militia (it's not a corporation or an alliance and thus not a valid target).
You know this does not make sense at all right?
Teh failure of a signature. |
Harmony Loveflange
Chocolate Flairs
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Posted - 2008.06.19 14:33:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Venkul Mul I see a little bug in the concept "We wardec the single corporation in the militia as a way to wardec the militia".
Doing so you get immunity from Concord and gateguns but keep immunity from the faction navy in the empire high sec. Something that is not reciprocal for the corporation you wardecced.
However you put it it is not right.
if you've been war dec'd by an enemy to allow them a level of safety you dont have couldnt you 'mutual' the war, then end the 'mutual', then war dec them? that way you get the advantages of the war dec ______________________
I'm Ron Burgundy? |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.06.19 14:42:00 -
[36]
hmm ... I thought that if you sign up as an individual, you change corp to the respective Militia ... that way you are safe from war decs ...
am I missing some info ? --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
Sapphrine
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.06.19 14:48:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka hmm ... I thought that if you sign up as an individual, you change corp to the respective Militia ... that way you are safe from war decs ...
am I missing some info ?
As an individual you are quite right. However corps can sign up as corps to FW in which case they remain war deccable.
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Xennith
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.06.19 14:48:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
So you have a big advantage: you can enter high sec Amarr space to hunt for your targets while you are almost totally secure in Minmatar space. That situation lack reciprocity in danger so it is not right
terrible isnt it? you know what would be great, if we could join the militia. we cant. so this is the next best thing. We come for our people |
libertarian cole
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Posted - 2008.06.19 14:57:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Uzume Ame
Originally by: CCP Greyscale The systems behind Factional Warfare basically just don't touch the War Declaration system, at least from a design point of view. This is both why you can dec militia player corps including those within your own militia (the war system doesn't see corps in a militia as any different from corps not in a militia) and why you can't dec the entire militia (it's not a corporation or an alliance and thus not a valid target).
You know this does not make sense at all right?
Why Not? All he is saying is that they created a totally new system for factional warfare that uses different mechanics then the alliance and corporation system.
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Zyta Eke
Reikoku Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.06.19 14:59:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Zyta Eke on 19/06/2008 14:59:41
Originally by: CCP Greyscale The systems behind Factional Warfare basically just don't touch the War Declaration system, at least from a design point of view. This is both why you can dec militia player corps including those within your own militia (the war system doesn't see corps in a militia as any different from corps not in a militia) and why you can't dec the entire militia (it's not a corporation or an alliance and thus not a valid target).
If it isn't an alliance then there doesn't seem to be any reason not to let alliances join. If it is an alliance then there doesn't seem to be any reason not to let alliances war-dec it.
Your current solution doesn't make any sense.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.06.19 14:59:00 -
[41]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale The systems behind Factional Warfare basically just don't touch the War Declaration system, at least from a design point of view. This is both why you can dec militia player corps including those within your own militia (the war system doesn't see corps in a militia as any different from corps not in a militia) and why you can't dec the entire militia (it's not a corporation or an alliance and thus not a valid target).
Holy ****. A dev commenting on war decs.
While you are here, how about a comment on whether wardeccing yourself with 20 alt corps to drive the price up for an alliance who wants to war is in the spirit of the game or not
/me dosent hold his breath waiting for an answer
SKUNK
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Sapphrine
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.06.19 14:59:00 -
[42]
Venkul Mul, CCP gave out a game mechanic, RP alliances weren't very happy with it but we've got to work with it as best as we can.
think abou the other options:
-FW militia's are deccable by alliances. I'd like this but the argument about major alliances deccing factions for the lulz if fair and to be considered.
-FW milita's are non deccable. This is highly exploitable as militia would be the ultimate way to attack people anywhere and be free from war decs.
So we're left with the current situation. What to do? The amarrian faction have plenty of options if they try to work together. U'K have dec'd what we percieve as the strongest amarrian forces. Combined your pilots out-number u'k and you have a number of groups that are used to fighting us having had mutual decs in place for years.
You can stick it out and see how many weeks we're willing to fork out iskies for war decs (as a hint, quite a few, we saw this coming) or you can try and increase the pilots on your side if you want to fight us but don't feel you have the numbers currently. (given there's only been a few hours to see i don't know if you could know yet tbh)
Again, U'K will mutual any war dec by a corporation within the Amarrian Militia. Hell, ideally we'd have an OOC agreement with all Amarrian faction Militia groups to mutual dec but I suspect they wont all agree to it... U'K is less than a fifth the size of the amarrian militia. If you all dec'd us and worked together we'd have a good challenge i'm sure :)
To stress the point, u'k are a RP alliance, we've waited years to have an organised RP war that we could get into and we've been pushed out of it sadly. Its frustrating we can't participate within the structure of FW but it does also fit well with our RP stance to the republic (currently). The militia is fighting for to free our people however so we will support them as much as possible. The current game mechanic to facilitate this is war decs. ergo, we dec :)
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Shar Tegral
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Posted - 2008.06.19 15:03:00 -
[43]
Dev gave a straight forward factual answer. He didn't editorialize it with his opinion. Take it for what it is worth and realize that the Devs are closely watching and probably planning on tweaking the faction warfare system.
No need to go jumping on, or trolling, the dev.
Go find someone else to abuse, please. (Like me, if you dare)
To Shar -verb: 1 - To say what you mean. 2 - To say what it means. 3 - To say something mean. |
Surreptitious
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.19 15:13:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Surreptitious on 19/06/2008 15:16:21 Get Ready, this is about to become common place. For obvious reasons the role players will dec the militia corps, but for groups like ours there are also alot of benefits.
- Tons of targets. Deccing several of the biggest alliances in the game yields just a fraction of the targets these militia's do in empire. - Easy to find targets. The militia corps are pretty much stuck in specific regions of the map and even that can be narrowed down to a dozen or so systems. - Soft(er) targets than the alliances. - Willing to fight targets. Alliance members in empire are typically carebearing and don't want to fight much. Militia members joined purely for the PVP.
If you ask me, its just a matter of time until literally dozens of corps/alliances form purely for deccing the FW guys. In an extreme sense I could see it putting a HUGE dent in the whole FW situation. As one alliance mate said it best,,"It will be great to be a thorn in the side of CCP again."
I see a huge 100man FW blob jumping to a gate with only half making it through wondering what happened to the other half,,,oh they're on the other side of the gate getting whacked,,,,
Syrup
EDIT: WOW, I was unaware that corps within a militia could dec each other. I will be forming something with an alt to exploit that one mechanic,,,, lol. This should be good.
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Anariel Andurill
School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2008.06.19 15:18:00 -
[45]
mmmm, privateers acting like tards? in eve? no really!
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Windle Poons
Ankh-Morpork City Watch
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Posted - 2008.06.19 15:20:00 -
[46]
Originally by: CCP Greyscale The systems behind Factional Warfare basically just don't touch the War Declaration system, at least from a design point of view. This is both why you can dec militia player corps including those within your own militia (the war system doesn't see corps in a militia as any different from corps not in a militia) and why you can't dec the entire militia (it's not a corporation or an alliance and thus not a valid target).
Nor is it for standings or CSPA charges afaik. This is rather annoying too :/
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Viqtoria
Groping Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.06.19 15:22:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Viqtoria on 19/06/2008 15:22:44 lol @ privs person.
your simply not as relavent as you wish you were, and nowhere near as much as you think you are
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Surreptitious
Privateers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.19 15:33:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Viqtoria Edited by: Viqtoria on 19/06/2008 15:22:44 lol @ privs person.
your simply not as relavent as you wish you were, and nowhere near as much as you think you are
Who cares about relevance. I just want to grief some people, ruin their enjoyment and make CCP change more game mechanics. Besides, I play WOW 95% of the time anyways.
Syrup
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CCP Greyscale
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Posted - 2008.06.19 15:51:00 -
[49]
Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 19/06/2008 15:52:15
Originally by: Elsebeth Rhiannon
Originally by: CCP Greyscale The systems behind Factional Warfare basically just don't touch the War Declaration system, at least from a design point of view. This is both why you can dec militia player corps including those within your own militia (the war system doesn't see corps in a militia as any different from corps not in a militia) and why you can't dec the entire militia (it's not a corporation or an alliance and thus not a valid target).
True, Greyscale - but the main question of course is why does it not touch those?
Because doing so would add a great deal of complexity to the design and the implementation and open up the potential for another raft of exploits and unintended consequences while at the same time providing dubious actual utility and not contributing to any of the design goals. It made no sense to request programming time for the initial release something which we predicted would just cause us more headaches with minimal actual benefit.
This is one of the many areas where we're keeping an eye on what's going on and are leaving the possibility open to alter mechanics based on observation and feedback, so if significant issues arise which are best resolved by revisiting this relationship then we will do so, but for now the current system is judged to be the least confusing and most consistent implementation.
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AltBier
Freelance Unincorporated
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Posted - 2008.06.19 15:57:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Uzume Ame
Originally by: CCP Greyscale The systems behind Factional Warfare basically just don't touch the War Declaration system, at least from a design point of view. This is both why you can dec militia player corps including those within your own militia (the war system doesn't see corps in a militia as any different from corps not in a militia) and why you can't dec the entire militia (it's not a corporation or an alliance and thus not a valid target).
You know this does not make sense at all right?
To use a well know analogy ... why should the Judean People's Front not be able to war dec the People's Front of Judea.
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Ulstan
State Protectorate
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Posted - 2008.06.19 16:06:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Venkul Mul I see a little bug in the concept "We wardec the single corporation in the militia as a way to wardec the militia".
Doing so you get immunity from Concord and gateguns but keep immunity from the faction navy in the empire high sec. Something that is not reciprocal for the corporation you wardecced.
However you put it it is not right.
It would definitely be unfair for alliances to just be able to wardec all the militias and get immunity from concorde and the gate guns while having open season on all the milita nubs. Highly approve of CCP's decision not to allow that.
Now, wardeccing a specific corp...you could do this whether they were or were not in FW, and doing so doesn't let you shoot at the rest of the militia, so it's not obviously bad. I'm still a bit iffy on the way they can bypass the factional navy...maybe make the navy attack anyone who is wardecced to a corp in the militia?
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Uzume Ame
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.19 16:54:00 -
[52]
Originally by: libertarian cole
Originally by: Uzume Ame
Originally by: CCP Greyscale The systems behind Factional Warfare basically just don't touch the War Declaration system, at least from a design point of view. This is both why you can dec militia player corps including those within your own militia (the war system doesn't see corps in a militia as any different from corps not in a militia) and why you can't dec the entire militia (it's not a corporation or an alliance and thus not a valid target).
You know this does not make sense at all right?
Why Not? All he is saying is that they created a totally new system for factional warfare that uses different mechanics then the alliance and corporation system.
Corps within the militia decing makes no sense; you don't wardec your allies (I know that militias are not exactlly like alliances, but the point still). If youw ant to be at war with a corp of your own militia you should quit the militia mand then wardec them.
Teh failure of a signature. |
Sapphrine
Neh'bu Kau Beh'Hude Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.06.19 17:06:00 -
[53]
can anyone who's dec'd a corp with their own militia confirm whether you lose standing for shooting your own militia still? if you do but the war dec just allows you to fire on them in high sec also then no problem as the mechanic simply allows you to get booted from the militia whilst getting a few kills i suspect.
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Viqtoria
Groping Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.06.19 17:11:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Uzume Ame
Originally by: libertarian cole
Originally by: Uzume Ame
Originally by: CCP Greyscale The systems behind Factional Warfare basically just don't touch the War Declaration system, at least from a design point of view. This is both why you can dec militia player corps including those within your own militia (the war system doesn't see corps in a militia as any different from corps not in a militia) and why you can't dec the entire militia (it's not a corporation or an alliance and thus not a valid target).
You know this does not make sense at all right?
Why Not? All he is saying is that they created a totally new system for factional warfare that uses different mechanics then the alliance and corporation system.
Corps within the militia decing makes no sense; you don't wardec your allies (I know that militias are not exactlly like alliances, but the point still). If youw ant to be at war with a corp of your own militia you should quit the militia mand then wardec them.
it would be even more silly to allow player corps to be immune from a wardec under any circumstances.
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Yuleth Gix
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Posted - 2008.06.19 17:56:00 -
[55]
Can you wardec someone in your allinace? If the answer is 'no' then there is a situation you are immune to war dec's in.
I'll admit i'm not 100% of the answer to that since it never occured to me to try.
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Viqtoria
Groping Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.06.19 18:00:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Yuleth Gix Can you wardec someone in your allinace? If the answer is 'no' then there is a situation you are immune to war dec's in.
I'll admit i'm not 100% of the answer to that since it never occured to me to try.
it wouldn't be an alliance if you could war dec singular corps in it. Militias are not alliances.
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Rooker
Lysian Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.06.19 19:26:00 -
[57]
I can't say if I'd support alliances being able to wardec an entire faction or not. There are pros and cons on both sides and I can't make up my mind on that.
However, there are two mechanics that I have no problem deciding to label as epically stupid
1) You cannot set standings to the faction (or other NPC corps for that matter) 2) You cannot remove allied faction from overview
These limitations are boneheaded and need to be corrected ASAP.
-- Let Us Avoid Systems Via Autopilot |
Uzume Ame
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.19 19:31:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Viqtoria
Originally by: Yuleth Gix Can you wardec someone in your allinace? If the answer is 'no' then there is a situation you are immune to war dec's in.
I'll admit i'm not 100% of the answer to that since it never occured to me to try.
it wouldn't be an alliance if you could war dec singular corps in it. Militias are not alliances.
That depends how you see it. Fine for me anyway, but a bit weird, does not make much sense.
Teh failure of a signature. |
True Sasha
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.19 19:38:00 -
[59]
Edited by: True Sasha on 19/06/2008 19:38:15 I am a noob
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Viqtoria
Groping Hand Social Club
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Posted - 2008.06.19 19:39:00 -
[60]
well it's as ccp greyscale said, "...and why you can't dec the entire militia (it's not a corporation or an alliance and thus not a valid target)." So not just how I see it :P
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