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Author	Topic
Cpt Branko Surge. NIght's Dawn	Posted - 2008.06.20 20:29:00 - [91] Originally by: Trojanman190 I don't necarily agree that the the pest needs a better rof bonus, I think the guns themselves need to be boosted, but the point is that all these dudes think that capless turrets are some huge huge advantage. The capless bit would be nice if the turret's themselves didn't suck. Or if cap didn't suck. I run a dual-rep Tempest (mostly for gatecamping and such, fights vs smaller stuff, wouldn't take it for BS on BS action ever) with dual neuts, it's constantly verging on capdeath (with a T2 heavy injector) with max skills. People parroting about capless weapons tend to forget that Minmatar cap sucks to begin with and is only a true advantage on plated setups (which preferably don't run neuts, something which is a significant remaining asset of the pest for swatting smaller stuff), where cap injection isn't mandatory (even though it's still damn nice). I never understood the point of having more shield HP then armour; or having crap agility (which is, I agree, not massively useful on a BS, but, hey, it'd give it more 'minmatar' character even though it's not a significant boost) on the Tempest. As for buffing large ACs: it would be nice (and necessary to actually make the ship in league with the Raven/Mega/etc), but I still think more dronebay (125m3-150m3, so you're not stuck with only one set of drones and can use heavy drones plus a set of lights or mediums) and more bandwidth (100m3, to give it the ability to field 4 Ogres, doesn't make it a drone ship) would give more encouragement to use the Tempest over the Typhoon (which is good because it's a torp/drone boat with ACs as an afterthought), or Maelstorm (which reminds me of 'flying' a huge station gun, but does solid DPS thanks to 3 gyro setups and 4 Ogres). A big NO to changing the bonuses. Without double damage bonuses, its DPS would suck, and it would be actually worse at most ranges (even when kiting) if one of the damage bonuses was switched to falloff (hey, hitting 70% of the time with 700 base DPS or hitting 90% with 550 DPS?). No need to make the ship resticted to sniping or sucking even worse then now. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Jalif Deviance Inc Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.06.20 21:19:00 - [92] Awesome posts, Yeah, reading after all this & "specially" Trojanman190 post I defintnaly think that Minmatar guns need a boost. Maybe change he topic title now to: @CCP - The Broken Arty & AC Originally by: CCP Dionysus We like to share the lub.
Blind Jhon	Posted - 2008.06.20 21:25:00 - [93] Originally by: Jalif Awesome posts, Yeah, reading after all this & "specially" Trojanman190 post I defintnaly think that Minmatar guns need a boost. Maybe change he topic title now to: @CCP - The Broken Arty & AC you are perfectly in right. but i made this post because i think actually above all tempest is broken
Rane Javoke Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.06.20 21:45:00 - [94] Edited by: Rane Javoke on 20/06/2008 21:45:55 I at least hope that someone @ CCP has seen this thread. I don't expect too much too soon though, and i don't think anyone should. There is a thousand reply long thread about amarr recons, and the general amarr boost thread pre-revIII has been around for ever. I would really like to see some change in the next major patch / expansion, and i think we have presented the issue in an orderly and civilized manner, which goes a long way(i hope) edit: props to the participants, keep it up
Trojanman190 D00M.	Posted - 2008.06.20 21:49:00 - [95] Originally by: Rane Javoke Edited by: Rane Javoke on 20/06/2008 21:45:55 ... edit: props to the participants, keep it up We are working on it and ty for the props. It took the ammarans a long time but it happened and that's all we ask for. I think their issue was a much tougher (not more important, more difficult to address) issue tho and the solution, the em nerf, was not what a lot of people expected although it seems to have made people happy.
Siddy Gay Nationalist Association of Amamake	Posted - 2008.06.20 22:01:00 - [96] Edited by: Siddy on 20/06/2008 22:05:36 TEMPEST IS FINE, ITS OK THAT AMARR TIRE 1 BS OUTDAMAGE EVERY MINMATAR SHIP, AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT ALSO OUT-PASSIVE TANK MINMATAR TIRE 1 AND 2 BS'S WITH 50M PRICETAG. LETS NOT FORGET THAT, THAT SAID BS IS NEXST FASTES BS IN GAME AND ALL, ALSO SURPASSES MINNIE COUNTERPART IN MOST CHARACTERISTICS. MINMATAR IS FINE. JUST LIKE MY WRITING. ------------- T'ey see me t'Rollin, t'ey hatin, pa'trolli. T'ey trying catch me writing dirty...
Jalif Deviance Inc Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.06.20 22:14:00 - [97] Originally by: Siddy Edited by: Siddy on 20/06/2008 22:05:36 TEMPEST IS FINE, ITS OK THAT AMARR TIRE 1 BS OUTDAMAGE EVERY MINMATAR SHIP, AND NOT ONLY THAT, BUT ALSO OUT-PASSIVE TANK MINMATAR TIRE 1 AND 2 BS'S WITH 50M PRICETAG. LETS NOT FORGET THAT, THAT SAID BS IS NEXST FASTES BS IN GAME AND ALL, ALSO SURPASSES MINNIE COUNTERPART IN MOST CHARACTERISTICS. MINMATAR IS FINE. JUST LIKE MY WRITING. I laughed, but sadly it is true. Originally by: CCP Dionysus We like to share the lub.
MacDuncan Asgard Schiffswerften Ev0ke	Posted - 2008.06.20 22:16:00 - [98] Well, as much as i would like the thought of a "once-again-powerfull-pest" - how long will we have to bump this thread? Just think of the phoons' story and it's lenght... -- Might As well Train Another Race
Blind Jhon	Posted - 2008.06.20 22:20:00 - [99] Edited by: Blind Jhon on 20/06/2008 22:22:33 Originally by: Siddy Edited by: Siddy on 20/06/2008 22:05:36 TEMPEST IS FINE...... Originally by: MacDuncan Well, as much as i would like the thought of a "once-again-powerfull-pest" - how long will we have to bump this thread? Just think of the phoons' story and it's lenght... we will rust theyr balls Rane i do not think anyone expect someting right next month... but hey it's a starts i think we should be toghether and keep the thread alive.... and maybe bump siddy's 1400 ones sometime. now as trojan said we are working on... anyways in the last hour i'm seriously thinking a bout 125 m3 dronebay whit 100 band should be a nice begin ending whit an extra low slot ( i'm like the donkeys, never change idea) for the tempest..... or it's just me?? EDIT said that remain just.... the large projectile turret's GREAT BIG FAT (rof) issue
Rane Javoke Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.06.20 22:27:00 - [100] Originally by: Blind Jhon in the last hour i'm seriously thinking a bout 125 m3 dronebay whit 100 band should be a nice begin ending whit an extra low slot ( i'm like the donkeys, never change idea) for the tempest..... it's late-ish now, so i'll go consume some beeer and think about that (also, bump for great justice)

Guillame Herschel The Graduates Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2008.06.20 22:28:00 - [101] Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 20/06/2008 22:30:31 Originally by: Trevor Warps And your sucky tempest shoots out to what, 40 km ? I got mine setup with an optimal out to 152km, before any fleet boosts. All it took was three TC II, one TE II, 1 SB II, three Ionic field rigs (locking range) and of course, six 1400 II with Tremor, and level 5 in the related skills. I also need to use two fitting mods in the lows, so my only tank is a DCU II. Of course, the Rokh sitting next to me shoots that far with level 3 skills and no rigs... *-- The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then* --**
Trojanman190 D00M.	Posted - 2008.06.20 22:38:00 - [102] Edited by: Trojanman190 on 20/06/2008 22:45:26 Edited by: Trojanman190 on 20/06/2008 22:41:03 Originally by: Guillame Herschel Edited by: Guillame Herschel on 20/06/2008 22:30:31 Originally by: Trevor Warps And your sucky tempest shoots out to what, 40 km ? I got mine setup with an optimal out to 152km, before any fleet boosts. All it took was three TC II, one TE II, 1 SB II, three Ionic field rigs (locking range) and of course, six 1400 II with Tremor, and level 5 in the related skills. I also need to use two fitting mods in the lows, so my only tank is a DCU II. Of course, the Rokh sitting next to me shoots that far with level 3 skills and no rigs... And he will out dps you even when you are in your optimal =/ Sad =( And as nice as the drone bay sounds it would give ccp and excuse to say 'we fixed it, be happy' and not solve anything else. It would be nice but isn't all that big a deal. It would only help the pest and wouldn't do anything to get me to take the neuts off my phoon for ac. (ive got great drone skeelz too) Mainly I think boosting the guns wouldn't make the tempest so broken... but if I had to pick a boost to give the tempest and only the tempest it would be another gun slot and grid to fit one more 1400. My biggest problem with the ship is lack of viability at long range a bit more dps there, abliet a teeny but more is better than drones that are only used up close. But yea fix the race first... then see how the ship is.
Jalif Deviance Inc Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.06.20 22:56:00 - [103] Edited by: Jalif on 20/06/2008 23:02:20 Edited by: Jalif on 20/06/2008 23:00:29 What if we make arty just amazing long range weapons like the rokh but still very diffrent? - double or triple the damage - Make optimal like 20km? - Make Falloff a hugh number (wouldn't know a number just fast out of my head but around 80km sounds good) - Make Tracking Enhancers able to boost falloff - Make Tracking Computer able to boost falloff - Change the Tremor from optimal bonus to falloff bonus. ... You will boost AC too if you can fit atleast one of those modules. The fifth midslot for the tempest could be fitted with a tracking computer with a falloff script. EDIT: you could get the same effect as the apoc (124km pulse range)fitted with: 1: Pulse lasers with scorch 2: Rigs 3: Tracking Enhancers & Tracking Computers to boost its optimal. & then still the apoc has a better damage up until 124km & better tracking. EDIT 2: About the 124km of Pulse range, I think it is the right number that I saw last time in a forum topic, but I can be wrong. However it was over 100km. Originally by: CCP Dionysus We like to share the lub.
To mare	Posted - 2008.06.20 22:57:00 - [104] they wont change the slot layout its a tempest not a fake mega or geddon. about drone bay, if u want to use drone get a phoon, tempest should be: warp in > BANG BANG > kil somethin > warp out > repeat.
Trojanman190 D00M.	Posted - 2008.06.20 23:10:00 - [105] Edited by: Trojanman190 on 20/06/2008 23:11:56 Originally by: To mare they wont change the slot layout its a tempest not a fake mega or geddon. about drone bay, if u want to use drone get a phoon, tempest should be: warp in > BANG BANG > kil somethin > warp out > repeat. I agree. Right now the geddon is superior at this. Originally by: Jalif Edited by: Jalif on 20/06/2008 23:02:20 Edited by: Jalif on 20/06/2008 23:00:29 What if we make arty just amazing long range weapons like the rokh but still very diffrent? - double or triple the damage - Make optimal like 20km? - Make Falloff a hugh number (wouldn't know a number just fast out of my head but around 80km sounds good) - Make Tracking Enhancers able to boost falloff - Make Tracking Computer able to boost falloff - Change the Tremor from optimal bonus to falloff bonus. ... You will boost AC too if you can fit atleast one of those modules. The fifth midslot for the tempest could be fitted with a tracking computer with a falloff script. EDIT: you could get the same effect as the apoc (124km pulse range)fitted with: 1: Pulse lasers with scorch 2: Rigs 3: Tracking Enhancers & Tracking Computers to boost its optimal. & then still the apoc has a better damage up until 124km & better tracking. EDIT 2: About the 124km of Pulse range, I think it is the right number that I saw last time in a forum topic, but I can be wrong. However it was over 100km. The changes you listed, while cool, are way to drastic to even be considered by the devs =/. Although tracking enhancers that could enhance fall off by 30% would be pretty epic. Those still wouldnt help with arty tho.
Jalif Deviance Inc Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.06.20 23:20:00 - [106] Edited by: Jalif on 20/06/2008 23:20:47 Originally by: Jalif Edited by: Jalif on 20/06/2008 23:02:20 Edited by: Jalif on 20/06/2008 23:00:29 What if we make arty just amazing long range weapons like the rokh but still very diffrent? - double or triple the damage - Make optimal like 20km? - Make Falloff a hugh number (wouldn't know a number just fast out of my head but around 80km sounds good) - Make Tracking Enhancers able to boost falloff - Make Tracking Computer able to boost falloff - Change the Tremor from optimal bonus to falloff bonus. ... You will boost AC too if you can fit atleast one of those modules. The fifth midslot for the tempest could be fitted with a tracking computer with a falloff script. EDIT: you could get the same effect as the apoc (124km pulse range)fitted with: 1: Pulse lasers with scorch 2: Rigs 3: Tracking Enhancers & Tracking Computers to boost its optimal. & then still the apoc has a better damage up until 124km & better tracking. EDIT 2: About the 124km of Pulse range, I think it is the right number that I saw last time in a forum topic, but I can be wrong. However it was over 100km. The changes you listed, while cool, are way to drastic to even be considered by the devs =/. Although tracking enhancers that could enhance fall off by 30% would be pretty epic. Those still wouldnt help with arty tho. Well, atleast it is something & you/CCP could atleast test it. I know it is drastic, but thats what they did with those amarr missle ships (forgot their name for the moment). The funn thing is with these kind of Arty is that they look very much on the real-life. They start at max but dirrectly at the begginning they slow down but the range is very far & impact on close range is devastating. If you would play this in eve, you could go for 250km but do less damage then on 150km. But the risk that you get caughed "easier" will be higher. Its kind of like: risk vs reward which eve stands for. Originally by: CCP Dionysus We like to share the lub.
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.06.20 23:22:00 - [107] Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 20/06/2008 23:22:19 Just boosting autocannon damage would not do anything meaningful for the tempest unless you boosted it to a level that made the Maelstrom unstoppable, and even then we still have the problem of the Maelstrom making the Tempest obsolete.
Jalif Deviance Inc Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.06.20 23:32:00 - [108] Originally by: Gavin Darklighter Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 20/06/2008 23:22:19 Just boosting autocannon damage would not do anything meaningful for the tempest unless you boosted it to a level that made the Maelstrom unstoppable, and even then we still have the problem of the Maelstrom making the Tempest obsolete. We have to take that in count then. But AC & Arty has to be fixed anyway. If we notice that the Mealstrom would be ok after the whatever-new-changes-will-be, & the tempest still sucks then we balance the tempest. Or if the tempest is ok & the mealstrom to strong then we should balance the mealstrom. Noticed that this treath is not about AC & Arty or Tempest, it is about those 3 stuff that we would like to see balanced. Originally by: CCP Dionysus We like to share the lub.
To mare	Posted - 2008.06.20 23:37:00 - [109] Originally by: Gavin Darklighter Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 20/06/2008 23:22:19 Just boosting autocannon damage would not do anything meaningful for the tempest unless you boosted it to a level that made the Maelstrom unstoppable, and even then we still have the problem of the Maelstrom making the Tempest obsolete. maestrom turret dps is just a 5% better than the tempest, see double bonus VS single bonus. tempest can still equip neuts or remote repper w/o gimp the dps maelstrom cant. or put launchers on tempest and it will outdps the mael
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2008.06.20 23:43:00 - [110] Sure, if you don't want a meaningful tank.

To mare	Posted - 2008.06.21 00:10:00 - [111] Originally by: Gavin Darklighter Sure, if you don't want a meaningful tank. active shield tank arent that good for pvp anyway. and mael tank isnt that good when u fit mwd web disruptor (injector if u want to run the tank a bit). but speaking of effective turret mael is just a 5% better than pest, that said pest have 2 free slot. other than that mael is slow and handle like a brick. ant tbh i think a T3 BS is allowed to do some heavy damage, just look at the abbaddon.
AstroPhobic	Posted - 2008.06.21 01:18:00 - [112] Right. Large guns need to be fixed BEFORE the tempest, otherwise we get a giant mess. CCP, we're telling you HOW to do it, so just DO it already.
Blind Jhon	Posted - 2008.06.21 08:24:00 - [113] Edited by: Blind Jhon on 21/06/2008 08:28:12 morning bump and also.... Originally by: Jalif ..... Noticed that this treath is not about AC & Arty or Tempest, it is about those 3 stuff that we would like to see balanced. ok so we should get guns fixed before the ship.. (i think they will fix the gun, but then no more the ship...) and how? let's see all the second tier "short ranged" guns 650mm(36 cpu and 1500 pg)used whit EMP(42 max damage)-->13.44 dps @ 3600 meters A)Rof ______7.50 sec B)Optimal __3.600 m C)dam-mod___2.4 D)fallof____16 Km E)traking___0.54 rad/sec ion blaster(47cpu and 1750 pg)used whitan ANTIMATTER(48 max damage)-->20.20 DPS @ 5000 meters ZOMG A)__________6.7sec B)__________5000m C)__________2.82 D)__________8km E)__________5rad/sec F)activation 12 energy dual heavy pulse(50cpu 1500pg)used whit MULTIFREQUENCY(48 max damage)-->16 DPS @ 18 Km A)__________6 sec B)__________18 Km C)__________2 D)__________6000 m E)__________0.475 rad/sec F) activation 25 energy so whit AC i have worst dps at worst range. i can stay in falloff range hitting half time for half damage (barely wtf less than 7 dps per turret on a battleship) i used crap item whitout skill. more skill more advanced in meta level we are, more the difference are increased... i want to underline that whit AC i got the worst max range so i need to get closr it's the pirat assault tecnique. but doing this i surely need a solid tank, or really really uber velocity (in battleship??) all these for the REALLY USEFULL HIG VERSATILE (and uber dps) 16KM FALLOF (note if i meet an amarr @16 km i'm pwned) AND FOR USING NO CAP, why don't we fit snowball launcher, do we? they use no cap! sure we do not need to stop shooting in middle of battle... have we ever started now seriously, a heavy Rof (or damage) boost?
Siddy Gay Nationalist Association of Amamake	Posted - 2008.06.21 09:52:00 - [114] Edited by: Siddy on 21/06/2008 09:52:56 tempest itself, got no problems as far fitting goes. Its just, there isint anything reasonable to fit on tempest at the moment :/ Check out my thread from first page OP like, its abaut the 1400mm's ------------- T'ey see me t'Rollin, t'ey hatin, pa'trolli. T'ey trying catch me writing dirty...
Jalif Deviance Inc Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.06.21 10:31:00 - [115] Originally by: Siddy Edited by: Siddy on 21/06/2008 09:52:56 tempest itself, got no problems as far fitting goes. Its just, there isint anything reasonable to fit on tempest at the moment :/ Check out my thread from first page OP like, its abaut the 1400mm's Well, Posted there a reply of my idea how arties should be changed. So that topic is back too. Originally by: CCP Dionysus We like to share the lub.
Blind Jhon	Posted - 2008.06.21 11:04:00 - [116] everyone speack about arty 1400mm but i just want to underline that,in my opinion, the problem is endeed in all the large projectile class gun anyways good thread siddy i higlighted it in main page
Jalif Deviance Inc Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.06.21 11:10:00 - [117] Originally by: Blind Jhon everyone speack about arty 1400mm but i just want to underline that,in my opinion, the problem is endeed in all the large projectile class gun anyways good thread siddy i higlighted it in main page I know that too. But we have to agree that arty sucks more then AC. (Atleast that is my opinion). I did my part on Arty, I would like to do it too for AC, but I need more time on that. Atleast in that 1400mm topic I made a possible solution for arty. Atleast that is a step to a surtain direction. Now people have to give their opinion about it if it is good or not. Originally by: CCP Dionysus We like to share the lub.
Siddy Gay Nationalist Association of Amamake	Posted - 2008.06.21 12:16:00 - [118] Originally by: Blind Jhon everyone speack about arty 1400mm but i just want to underline that,in my opinion, the problem is endeed in all the large projectile class gun anyways good thread siddy i higlighted it in main page Well, autocannons blow hard right now. Tempest cant do the passivetank + closerange fit nearly as well as Armageddon or megathron. And armageddon 50m isk > megatron 80m isk > tempest 80m isk The current flavor of the month in close range combat is 2 or 3 plates, damagecontrol, eanm's and damagemods. This fitting will win everytime against similar active repping fit. Because current HP buffer gain equals for 2 TO 3 FRACKING MINUTES OF NON-STOP ACTIVE REPPING . Making active repping on ships without bonus to it useless in PVP, going from Bad in 1v1 to USELESS in 5¦man gang engadements. And if i bring spidertankking in here, well lets not. So the TL;DR versions. Tempest cant tank, or gankk in closerange enought to justify its use in close range. Speed bonus is laregly neglated by current overpowered webbers, designed to countter nanofaggotory. And its longrange weponsystems that were FINE before HP boost, lost its alpha to abaddon and bacame useless due to low DPS ------------- T'ey see me t'Rollin, t'ey hatin, pa'trolli. T'ey trying catch me writing dirty...
Jalif Deviance Inc Nocturnal Legion	Posted - 2008.06.21 12:20:00 - [119] Originally by: Siddy Originally by: Blind Jhon everyone speack about arty 1400mm but i just want to underline that,in my opinion, the problem is endeed in all the large projectile class gun anyways good thread siddy i higlighted it in main page Well, autocannons blow hard right now. Tempest cant do the passivetank + closerange fit nearly as well as Armageddon or megathron. And armageddon 50m isk > megatron 80m isk > tempest 80m isk The current flavor of the month in close range combat is 2 or 3 plates, damagecontrol, eanm's and damagemods. This fitting will win everytime against similar active repping fit. Because current HP buffer gain equals for 2 TO 3 FRACKING MINUTES OF NON-STOP ACTIVE REPPING . Making active repping on ships without bonus to it useless in PVP, going from Bad in 1v1 to USELESS in 5¦man gang engadements. And if i bring spidertankking in here, well lets not. So the TL;DR versions. Tempest cant tank, or gankk in closerange enought to justify its use in close range. Speed bonus is laregly neglated by current overpowered webbers, designed to countter nanofaggotory. And its longrange weponsystems that were FINE before HP boost, lost its alpha to abaddon and bacame useless due to low DPS QFT... Originally by: CCP Dionysus We like to share the lub.
Crellion Art of War Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2008.06.21 12:29:00 - [120] Minmattar BSs are fine tbh, its the HACs, Reckons, frigs, BCs, Commands that need moar help /me runs away from the Minnie whiner squad. Seriously. Minmattar are the pvp ships. They make you use your brian and if you do they are vastly superior to any other race's same class for pvp. However a couple of years ago minnie community leaders (LOL) decided that using guile on the forums was more sueful than using it in game. RESULT> The norm is in evry class the Minnie choise outspeeds, out manoeuvres out locks, out warps, out ranges and generally POWNs and does 0.5 average less DPS than the uberest Gallente or Ammar equivalent (that needs to submit a triplicate application to turn and has 3 week waiting periods to lock) I use all 4 races nowdays so this just amuses me but ... it amuses me a lot :D Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.

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