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JVol
The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.06.23 06:25:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Shinithra Personally, I think scripts on the webber much like scripts for the Sensor Booster would be welcomed, but to keep things "sane" perhaps the two scripts could be:
1. +50% range, -50% slowdown 2. +50% slowdown, -50% range
(even sensor booster scrips have drawbacks)
A webber with a 15km range, should not be as effective as one used at very close range and vice versa.
An addition like this would also open up some new nano tactics, like blaster frigates at very close range that can really slow down their oponent alot and yet on the flip side, battleships that may at least have a slightly better chance at killing a nano ship if it can get within that 15km range - maybe....
Along with the boost to web range, the % SHOULD not drop off, EVEN at 90% the crazy insane speeds allow them to coast out of web range most of the time
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Duraj
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Posted - 2008.06.23 06:25:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Nikita Alterana yes. definitely yes. however, I think there should be some drawbacks to webs, because to be able to destroy an expensively fit ship with one relatively cheap module is rather imbalanced in itself. There are nano-ships, there should be anti-nano-ships. but just being able to stick on a better web would make any nano ship including interceptors completely useless.
could it be...wait...it is! could we finally have found a purpose for the destroyer?!
No. I would call that balance. nanoships are expensive, but immune to other expensive toys, an inexpensive one kills them to stop their nanoing. the inexpensive toy is useless vs other more expensive toys, so its all balanced.
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JVol
The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.06.23 06:29:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Duraj
Originally by: Nikita Alterana yes. definitely yes. however, I think there should be some drawbacks to webs, because to be able to destroy an expensively fit ship with one relatively cheap module is rather imbalanced in itself. There are nano-ships, there should be anti-nano-ships. but just being able to stick on a better web would make any nano ship including interceptors completely useless.
could it be...wait...it is! could we finally have found a purpose for the destroyer?!
No. I would call that balance. nanoships are expensive, but immune to other expensive toys, an inexpensive one kills them to stop their nanoing. the inexpensive toy is useless vs other more expensive toys, so its all balanced.
Isk has NOTHING TO do with balance.. Armor/sheild tanks can be crazy expencive, but a nano you cant hit, cant web and cant kill will eventually wear you down and kill you.. balence isnt anywhere in your arguments
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Jeckes
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Posted - 2008.06.23 06:39:00 -
[34]
They just need to nerf all long range guns by 50%. problem solved.
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Crewman Jenkins
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Posted - 2008.06.23 06:49:00 -
[35]
heh, long range guns are already underpowered against a short range setup |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2008.06.23 07:32:00 -
[36]
correct me if I am wrong (I will be probably :-)), please note this is how it SHOULD be, not how it is implemented atm.
agility and mass both affect different things:
1. mass does affect max speed you can reach 2. agility affects your turning rate 3. inertia afffects your acceleration/decceleration ability
There are a few problems with the model:
1. mass has no practical effect on anything other tham max speed 2. agility and inertia have effect on speed and direction changes without taking mass into effect
The general physical rule however places some limits on all 3.
The faster you go, the more energy you need to change direction or speed.
So we should have a interactive system in place that works like this:
1. Mass does affect your max speed as is now, because it is limiting the effect of the addition thrust from AB/MWD. 2. Once you cross the AB level of speed, you inertia goes up and agility goes down. This means you turn slower and deccelerate slower. 3. There is a limit speed where you are not able to turn at all only reachable with MWD fitted.
This means that once you go too fast, you turning ability and decceleration are getting limited to a point where you cannot turn at all and have to slow down to be able to orbit.
If you get webbed, you turning ability is restored and your decceleration also. This means a 90% web will not only slow you down MORE than a 75% web but also makes you more agile AND forces you to deccelerate faster.
This enables us to scale webs range by their efectivity. A 75% web can have more range than a 90% web has, becasue it has less effect on all the attributes (max speed, agility, decceleration) than a 90% web. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed ! |
Merroki
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Posted - 2008.06.23 10:15:00 -
[37]
No. And here's why: The problem isn't that web is not "up to speed". It isn't that Missiles are not "Up to speed" either. It's that nanos are becoming too darn fast due to the combinations of things you can now put together with flying a nano ship. Nanos are becoming faster than most of the rest of the game was designed for.
This is most especially a problem with nanos, not because everything else is not "up to speed", but that the effectiveness of many modules and mechanics against nanos drop off *very* sharply against targets of a certain speed. For example: web. target locking. If they get out of range before you lock, you start over.
Another example: missiles. At 3k/s you hit them for full damage. at 5 k/s you hit them for mostly no damage. The damage falloff mechanic never really comes into play anymore, as any nano worth their salt is past most of the falloff. Increasing one's speed from 3k/s to 5k/s is not hard at all.
Another example: grid size. I'm sure the grids were not designed for ships moving 12k/s from the outset. Faster ships means faster getting off grid. While it is part of the game, this particular mechanic is highly "artificial" even in a sci-fi world..
The easiest and simplest solution is to slow down the possible nanoing, not speedup/adjust/tweak countless other modules and mechanics.
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Dantes Revenge
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Posted - 2008.06.23 10:56:00 -
[38]
JVol, one thing I want to point out is the same thing others seem to point out to me when I put ideas in here. This is a MULTIPLAYER game and you mention 1v1. What's wrong with using a team mate in an inty with a webber (or two) and a scrambler to slow down the nanoship so you can turn it into a wreck? Don't say a nanoship is faster than an inty, those days are long gone since the nano nerf a couple of years ago.
The main point is that basically, nanoships are mostly armor tankers due to the greater number of low slots available. They have used all their lows to gain speed so their tank is non-existant. Slow it down with an inty and it's dead meat against almost any weapon. Even the inty itself can take it out.
Webs are fine as they are. Nanoships have been around for a very long time and if webs needed to be any more powerful, they would have been changed long ago before the nano's were ever nerfed.
Having much longer range webs means unarmed ships will never have a chance to get away. Ships such as mining barges and haulers will be locked, webbed and srambled well before the player can even hit warp. This change will not affect nanoships very much but it will merely increase the number of ganked miners and haulers from the current high to absolutely insane. Lowsec will become a no-fly zone for most mining operations unless accompanied by ridiculous numbers of combat ships to protect them.
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Kagura Nikon
Infinity Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.06.23 12:18:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Kagura Nikon on 23/06/2008 12:20:01 You are completely and utterly WRONG!
Sicne overheat was introduced keeping yourself out of web range is MUCH MUCH harder. Why? because you are in middle of a MWD cycle.. around your enemy.. at 20 km. Now he triggers his MWD with overheat. He will get and INSANELY huge speed boost. Almost for sure be faster than you and catch and web you at 13 km. You cannot counter with your own overheat because you cannot activate the overheat until the end of your current MWD cycle.. in 10 seconds!
A simple t2 cruiser with 1 nano or 1 Poly can get a 60-65% speed boost with overheating. That means that a not really nanoed ship now can easily catch a nano ship trying to keep just outside web range.
Ant THAt is one of the main reasons nanos are so fast nowadays. Because beign speedy is nto enough. You need to be STUPDLY fast to avoid beign caught by overheated ships. Overheat just made nano pilots overreact and go even faster. Onlymade things worse.
------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
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Tornoon
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Posted - 2008.06.23 17:52:00 -
[40]
How actually dangerous are these ships?
I know they are fricken uncatchable as you would expect from a nano ship especially if the pilot has spent half a bil on equipment and has pirate implants. tried plenty of times to catch them but never actually had 1v1's or got ganked by them yet.
If you can actually catch them they pop like tin foil but if a ship was going all tank would a setup that was all speed be able to bring it down? or what if you had a mixed setup with some ew, sensor damps or tracking disruptors, how easy would it be to screw up their range so they need to come within web range. I do remember using tracking disruptor vs a nano rapier once in a tanked hauler (read trap) and aside from his drones he couldn't do anything till my backup arived. In response to op's challenge I'd like him to find a nano setup that is all speed that can kill a ship if it is setup for all tank or has a few ew range modules to bring it into web range.
From what I've seen they aren't the unstoppable kill everything monsters people make them out to be unless you are fitted for all damage or pve. They do seem a bit overpowered but I'd rather see something like a nerf to multiple nano's rather than something like this that completely kills nano's (seriously if all webbers can web at 30 km with 90% range u've just killed close range combat along with a few other aspects of eve).
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Merroki
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Posted - 2008.06.23 19:48:00 -
[41]
The thing is that nanos give a tactical advantage (much superior movement), in addition to a mechanics advantage (damage evasion). Current combination of the two is pretty formidable. If they end up with either mostly one or the other (as a web/nos buff would imply), I think they would probably still get by fine because most of one and a little of the other is already good enough. When people argue pro-nano, they always seem to consider one in isolation with the other. Reality doesn't work that way.
But anyways it would be much more interesting for nanos to have some of both. Just not as much, total.
So super web buff = boring..
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JVol
The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.06.23 20:00:00 -
[42]
I understand fully that this is a "multi player game. But answer this. Isnt a ONE v ONE "MULTI" player? I mean, its not ONE person fighting a rat, its one person fighting ANOTHER person, 2 people, = is multi.. Now if its broke from that lvl, the smallest possible lvl you can have to have to be multi players is 2, right? If it doesnt work from there then adding MORE people doesnt make it 'fixed'. One v ONE is the 'foundation' if you will, its the begining, if its broke there its broke in the end,period.
I keep seeing all the counters to my OP saying '30km'? when the hell did I EVER say 30km? Never.. I think that Skills should dictate the range imo, spend 3 months more training web skills and yea, you SHOULD be able to do things with a web that other players who didnt invest the same amount of time in can do. Thats eve.
Ive been an Fc longer than a good portion of eve has been playing the game. In a gang, small to large I have ZERO problems with nanos, the counters are there for a good fc to utilize, from ew to bs sized neuts,to multiple fast tacklers to hell, OTHER nanos,I GET THAT! THAT ISNT WHERE THE PROBLEM LIES...
When the best faction webber in the game is relagated to 'loot' for your nano agressor because it wasnt even close to getting him ( domi overheated is ONLY 19.4km )because hes orbiting you at over 23kn-27km with JUST t2 gear!! lol.
If your going to say that webs and for the sake of argument, med neuts are 'just fine' as nano counters then your not playing the same game ive been playing, and I play in 0.0, low sec AND empire.
99% of the people who keep posting here arent comparing apples to apples, they are comparing an apple to a bushell of oranges and calling it 'just fine'.
The web range increase wont hurt nanos so bad that they are unplayable, they can just counter web their enemy and gtfo. Webs boats like the hugin/rapier and hyena might very well be overpowerd if they can web out to 100km, I agree, so just make my proposed web changes NOT affect them?? yup, that would work. On another note, w/ the new skills make webs and neuts have penalties to sig rad, ( saves intys from insta death ) yet still makes them good vs cruiser vs cruiser fights.
I DO NOT WANT TO SEE NANOS NERFED IN ANY FREAKIN WAY!!
I JUST WANT TO SEE THE GAP BETWEEN CURRENT ORBITING RANGES AND SOLO NANO COUNTERS BROUGHT TO REALISTIC DISTANCES.
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Marcus Gideon
Excessive Force
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Posted - 2008.06.23 21:16:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Marcus Gideon ... why not help Webs by balancing the whole speed system in the first place?
AB make you go faster, by providing more thrust. A Web is like a modified Tractor Beam, and slows you down by producing drag.
MWD make you go faster, by warping you inches ahead of yourself. A Scrambler disrupts the onboard computer and makes locking onto the destination harder.
So why not leave Webs as they are, with a nice hindering effect on ships being pushed through space harder. And make Scramblers have the same effect on an MWD jumping you ahead a few meters. Even your basic Disruptor, which may or may not be useful at a Gate Camp, can affect 24km out. I think that'd be plenty of distance to zap that nasty Inty and take it out.
Ideas
---
Five Green Dots - One Red Dot = Happy Drones |
JVol
The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.06.24 02:58:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Marcus Gideon
Originally by: Marcus Gideon ... why not help Webs by balancing the whole speed system in the first place?
AB make you go faster, by providing more thrust. A Web is like a modified Tractor Beam, and slows you down by producing drag.
MWD make you go faster, by warping you inches ahead of yourself. A Scrambler disrupts the onboard computer and makes locking onto the destination harder.
So why not leave Webs as they are, with a nice hindering effect on ships being pushed through space harder. And make Scramblers have the same effect on an MWD jumping you ahead a few meters. Even your basic Disruptor, which may or may not be useful at a Gate Camp, can affect 24km out. I think that'd be plenty of distance to zap that nasty Inty and take it out.
Ideas
[/quo Ive read this like 5 times, I still have no freakin idea what your proposing or how it has anything to do with the OP.. sry
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2008.06.24 07:42:00 -
[45]
Originally by: JVol In a cruiser one vs one the guy who is using the nano basically is allowed to bring a gun to a knife fight.
So what? Don't be the guy who brings a knife. Where are you finding all these one-on-one fights anyway? . Seeking frigateers!
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Thirzarr
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Posted - 2008.06.24 11:29:00 -
[46]
Nanos simply remind me of dual mwd. Period.
I like the speed tho. More of that in EvE. And some effective counter that makes speed ships not able to just know by ship type if its dangerous.
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Dantes Revenge
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Posted - 2008.06.24 11:34:00 -
[47]
Originally by: JVol When the best faction webber in the game is relagated to 'loot' for your nano agressor because it wasnt even close to getting him ( domi overheated is ONLY 19.4km )because hes orbiting you at over 23kn-27km with JUST t2 gear!! lol.
99% of the people who keep posting here arent comparing apples to apples, they are comparing an apple to a bushell of oranges and calling it 'just fine'.
The web range increase wont hurt nanos so bad that they are unplayable, they can just counter web their enemy and gtfo. Webs boats like the hugin/rapier and hyena might very well be overpowerd if they can web out to 100km, I agree, so just make my proposed web changes NOT affect them?? yup, that would work. On another note, w/ the new skills make webs and neuts have penalties to sig rad, ( saves intys from insta death ) yet still makes them good vs cruiser vs cruiser fights.
Only points relevant to my arguement are quoted.
You miss the main point of my arguement.
Boost the webber to counter a nano and it makes it way overpowered V standard ships. Nano's are an extreme and you should never balance to an extreme. This serves only to make the extreme a standard as a counter to the webber Your original post is a boost to the webber and not just a counter to the nano.
Adding skills to do this would simply make them a 'must have' for any serious PVPer. What will result is more cries of webbers being overpowered from users of standard ships so it becomes a vicious circle. It seems that you are the one comparing apples to oranges here. The webber is an apple and so is any standard ship in the game. The nano is an orange in this case because it is an extreme fit that majority of players do not use.
Have a go at baiting nano's with a couple of corp mates. Have a couple of inties standing by while you bait the nano to attack you. When he's locked you, in come the inties, web, lock and the nano is history. Trust me, it's fun, especially when those expensive speed boosting implants go pop as well. I've even been offered big isk to let his pod go, I got the isk but, oh dear, I just couldn't call the inty off in time
The only ting that will result from these posts regarding nanoships will be another nerf. As a long standing player, you should know CCP always nerfs rather than boosts things. Even the (supposed) Amarr boost was a nerf to resistances but, Amarr don't do explosive damage so what was the purpose of the explosive resist nerf?
However, a boost in any way to the webber will make it overpowered. Trust me, the next forum posts if the webber is boosted as you propose will be regarding webs being too powerful and players will be calling for a MWD/AB boost to counter them.
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Merroki
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Posted - 2008.06.24 21:12:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Dantes Revenge
Have a go at baiting nano's with a couple of corp mates. Have a couple of inties standing by while you bait the nano to attack you. When he's locked you, in come the inties, web, lock and the nano is history.
Also, do keep in mind that this would be a 3v1 fight.
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.07.16 18:36:00 -
[49]
The Op is about the increased orbiting range now due to t2 disruptor range and overheating. Webs in any form are mostly useless to a nano thats able to orbit 10km OUTSIDE a t2 webbys OVERHEATED range, without even overheating its disruptor..
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Under Heavy Fire
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Posted - 2008.07.16 19:44:00 -
[50]
I'll have to agree with the "fix speed first"-crowd. Getting phatter webs isn't the solution here, since it'll break normal combat so much that it ain't funny. Instead fix the un-stacked speed bonuses of the rigs and mods that all add together to from a damn near invincible nusciance(sp?), because that's all they are. They aren't dps heavy enough to actually threaten a similar, non-nanoed fleet, and in a 1v1 situation, most ships of equal or greater size could probably outtank them, forcing them to disengage.
Fix the speed, and THEN we can talk about webs.
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Ekrid
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Posted - 2008.07.16 20:36:00 -
[51]
STFU already, the devs said that speed is getting a nerf. its just not as easy as flipping a switch as you think, cause you're braindead and dont understand coding, or anything else in the world. go back to your cave, Mr. Ug.
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.07.16 21:36:00 -
[52]
Edited by: JVol on 16/07/2008 21:36:30 This sint as much about nanos as it is about orbiting distances.. Back in the day a faction webber had a great chance to catch an orbitng ship, he would have to orbit you at 19 and you could reach to 15, 4 km 'dead zone'. Now with overheating and t2 disruptors, its a dead zone of over 13km.. Webs need to be able to make up that distance with either rigs/scripts or overheating, regardless if its a nano or a 'regular' ship, webs are not up to par with 'new' orbiting distances. period
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2008.07.16 22:25:00 -
[53]
Not supported. It's an awful idea.
Webbing is already borderline broken for how insanely powerful it is, the last thing eve needs is everyone able to web at ridiculous ranges.
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JVol
Amarr The IMorral MAjority Imorral Dragons
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Posted - 2008.07.17 02:40:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Endless Subversion Not supported. It's an awful idea.
Webbing is already borderline broken for how insanely powerful it is, the last thing eve needs is everyone able to web at ridiculous ranges.
WTF game are YOU playing? HOW is it borderline broken? They cant reach any ship that orbits them atm? lol You have to land ONTOP of anyone you want to web currently, and even IF you manage to web someone, theres a good chance they will coast out of your web with their momentum. Could ya define 'ridiculous ranges'? Because I dont recall anywhere in my previous posts where i've advocated that.
IMO the best soulution is a set of skills similar to missiles, that could increase the web range, effectiveness and other peramters. But like missiles would take lots of extra time to make really good, put the time in, and yea, your KILLER with a web, dont, and it wouldnt be anywhere near as uber....? ( the pro nano guys are scared by this thread, its funny )
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Under Heavy Fire
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Posted - 2008.07.17 09:04:00 -
[55]
Originally by: JVol
Originally by: Endless Subversion Not supported. It's an awful idea.
Webbing is already borderline broken for how insanely powerful it is, the last thing eve needs is everyone able to web at ridiculous ranges.
WTF game are YOU playing? HOW is it borderline broken? They cant reach any ship that orbits them atm? lol You have to land ONTOP of anyone you want to web currently, and even IF you manage to web someone, theres a good chance they will coast out of your web with their momentum. Could ya define 'ridiculous ranges'? Because I dont recall anywhere in my previous posts where i've advocated that.
IMO the best soulution is a set of skills similar to missiles, that could increase the web range, effectiveness and other peramters. But like missiles would take lots of extra time to make really good, put the time in, and yea, your KILLER with a web, dont, and it wouldnt be anywhere near as uber....? ( the pro nano guys are scared by this thread, its funny )
It's borderline broken because of it's on/off behaviour. Either you are outside webrange and fighting (talking about ANY ship now, not just nanos) or you are webbed and dead.
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Jaketh Ivanes
Amarr Imperial Servants
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Posted - 2008.07.17 10:38:00 -
[56]
I havn't read all the posts and replies. But instead of concentrating on web vs speed, how about looking into tracking enhancers? Say you have hvy beams on a ship. They can, with tracking enhancers, hit a nano stabber at 15km. Below, the chance is just to low, but here comes the web. This puts the Nano boat in a difficult, but not impossible, situation of having to stay in the 10-15km orbit (or 13-15 with heat).
Anyways, sorry if this is a double post
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Zikka
Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.17 11:58:00 -
[57]
Here is an idea for you.
Take tractor beams (or maybe a new version of them) and have them be usable on ships as well as wrecks/cans.
It gives those ships an acceleration towards you of 500 m/s (smaller ships affected more than big). A couple of tractor beams would pull them into range of the web and then lets a normal web take effect. Naturally they could fly against the tractor beam but it does make it harder for them to get away from you and multiple tractors would become nasty but you are giving up high slots to achieve that.
This also gives Marauders a role in PvP.
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Sweet Rosella
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Posted - 2008.07.17 12:14:00 -
[58]
If you improve the webber your need to improve minmatar ships in some way, as these are the origianl nano ship's. damage, speed and not built very well with chicken wire and sellotape. Once caught they dont live very long. <img src="http://sigs.griefwatch.net/index.php?kb=spydr&name=Sweet+Rosella&template=red"> |
Darco Karim
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Posted - 2008.07.17 12:19:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Darco Karim on 17/07/2008 12:23:11
Originally by: Zikka Here is an idea for you.
Take tractor beams (or maybe a new version of them) and have them be usable on ships as well as wrecks/cans.
It gives those ships an acceleration towards you of 500 m/s (smaller ships affected more than big). A couple of tractor beams would pull them into range of the web and then lets a normal web take effect. Naturally they could fly against the tractor beam but it does make it harder for them to get away from you and multiple tractors would become nasty but you are giving up high slots to achieve that.
This also gives Marauders a role in PvP.
marauders do have a role, armor repping awsome for turtal gans, but @ 600 mill a pop would you take 1.
Tractor beams sounds good, add the 2 masses of the ships to gether and do maths with the size of engine systems ie mwd or AB, and who ever got the most power can fly whilst draggin the other about.
so say a frig has tractor beamed a bs and the bs has bigger thrust then the bs will pull the frig, but if a cruiser tractor beams a bs and has mwd it will pull the bs, and olny 1 ship can lock a tractor on target same as with cans.
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Seriya
Caldari FIRMA
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Posted - 2008.07.17 12:44:00 -
[60]
Webbing is a difficult subject because webbing is possibly the most crippling thing in the game (on a par with ECM IMO; just as ECM stops you doing anything to anyone, webbing stops you getting away from anyone.) No, a tanked ship can't force it's nano version to stay and fight to the death but a nano version often can't kill the tanked version either, so it's a trade-off.
Long-range 90% webs would be really silly - in fact Rapiers and Huginns ARE really silly. These ships don't just affect nano***s, they cripple every exit strategy from a Battleship trying to get to a gate to a Carrier heading for a POS shield to a Battlecruiser trying to get to docking range on a station. If we all had highly efficient, long-range webs then the only viable strategy would be to bring more, heavier ships, every time.
On a side-note, the current faction webs scale really badly; the 11km web has a 60% effectiveness and the 15km web has a 90% effectiveness, this would be far better balanced if it scaled the other way around and a choice had to be made between velocity reduction and web range.
I would however be in favour of a long range web (perhaps ~40km) that gave a minor speed reduction (perhaps -25%) - these wouldn't be so horribly crippling to anyone but 2-3 of these would vastly diminish the effectiveness of any nano setup.
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