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Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.06.23 14:06:00 - [1] Edited by: Victor Vision on 23/06/2008 14:25:51 I know the discussion about the rightfulness of slavery has been going on for centuries, but recently it has become more active than ever. The cause is the agression of terrorists on the Amarr empire, with their justification being to free slaves and end slavery. These terrorists go as far as saying it is morally right to kill people and their families merely due to the fact they own slaves or support slave owners. So I will take take the time to give doubters of slavery some arguments for reconcideration, by comparing slavery to employment. Employment: The general principle of employment is to pay people money in order to gain services from them. This payment often excludes the expenses of life for the employee. The employee will have to pay housing, food and medical care with his wages. If the employee does not earn much, or is not a master in handling his wages, it can happen that the employee is unable to pay for housing, food and medical care, or in the very least must make very serious compromises concerning these basic needs. Also, the employee might lose her/his employment, and as a consequence might not be able to maintain basic needs. Older employees are "layed off" at certain with age. If these did not take care of their finances well or did not have a well paying job and could not safe money for their unemployed time, they will run into serious problems covering their basic needs when old. Slavery: The general principle of slavery is to keep people alive in order to gain services from them. The slave holder will cover the basic needs like housing, food and medical care. There is no risk of unemplyment. Even at a high age slaves are usually provided with housing, food and medical care - their job being to take care of the young slave children while their parents work. In amarrian culture the benefits of slavery can exceed the general slavery principles. Amarrians often also provide the slaves with wisdom and sometimes introduce to them the high moralic value of religion. Directly comparing slavery and employment in concern to covering basic needs of people like housing, food and medical care it must be said that slavery has a clear advantage over low paid employment. I will admit however that a well payed employee who has the wisdom to lay back money for when he is old, might be in a superior position as compared to a slave. In concern to gaining wisdom and enlightenment, I also see an advantage for the slave, if the person in question did not find for himself the importance of these issues before. However an employee who by himself seeks wisdom and enlightnment might be just as successful, if he is wiling to take the right council. Concerning the questions of free movement, it must be said that the employee has a clear advantage over the slave in this aspect. Concerning freedom of speech, this might exist for a slave as well as for an employee, given she/he uses the right amount of respect in regards to the employer/slaver. Also it might not exist for an employee or slave, if the employer/slaver does not tolerate it. Concluding, I think it is clear, that for a person with a high wage and a wise mind, employment is better than slavery. However even such a person might prefer the master/servant relationship to an employer/employee one. A person who would only get a low to very low wage, and who is not enlightened yet, will greatly benefit from slavery, no matter what his personal prefernce may be. Amarr society offers both, employment and slavery. If us Amarrians would abondon slavery, we would not help the people, but instead hurt those parts of our society that are weakest. I know I will not be able to convince radicals and terrorists with my argumentation, but the more moderate opponents of slavery with an open mind, might reconcider. And I hope they do. Us Amarrians are not monsters. We are believers in God, and want the best for our people. EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE History Wiki
DeT Resprox T.R.I.A.D	Posted - 2008.06.23 15:03:00 - [2] DeT Resprox could not believe his ears when the latest communications message came through on the module above. Upon reading, without hesitation, Resprox cleared his throat and reached for the buttons with his gold encrusted hand. The communication link opened up to the channel: "Abandoning slavery would indeed show how the weak Amarrian Empire would be unable to fend for themselves. This is becoming noticable even now as you find yourself unable to fight against the Matari race taking your people down in The Bleak Lands. There is absolutely NO comparison in slavery to employment be it master/servant relationship to an employer/employee one or otherwise. Compare these to the family/friends relationship taken away from them and the Matari way of life and you will see that this is the only way. And as such....the only way that this life in the safe haven of the Minmatar Republic can be guaranteed, is by the force and might of the Brutor warrior. I'll fight to my last til i hope to see the day when the Amarrian Empire themselves are made to live in such conditions, but i fear that will never come....the day that i see you living in rubble and burning houses edges ever closer." DeT Resprox T.R.I.A.D CEO TRIAD website - The ONLY player agency in EvE
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.06.23 15:08:00 - [3] Edited by: Victor Vision on 23/06/2008 15:08:49 Originally by: DeT Resprox Words of a terrorist You, dear terrorist, are a perfect example for an unenlightened person who would greatly benefit from slavery. Maybe a kind Amarrian will sometime capture you, and instead of killing you let you find enlightenment by serving him. I am afraid though, that most Amarrians would much prefer to see you dead. So you will be pleased to hear that your chances for ever being a slave are slim at best.
Lazari Zarin	Posted - 2008.06.23 15:16:00 - [4] Originally by: DeT Resprox DeT Resprox could not believe his ears when the latest communications message came through on the module above. Upon reading, without hesitation, Resprox cleared his throat and reached for the buttons with his gold encrusted hand. The communication link opened up to the channel: Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. "Abandoning slavery would indeed show how the weak Amarrian Empire would be unable to fend for themselves. This is becoming noticable even now as you find yourself unable to fight against the Matari race taking your people down in The Bleak Lands. There is absolutely NO comparison in slavery to employment be it master/servant relationship to an employer/employee one or otherwise. Compare these to the family/friends relationship taken away from them and the Matari way of life and you will see that this is the only way. And as such....the only way that this life in the safe haven of the Minmatar Republic can be guaranteed, is by the force and might of the Brutor warrior. I'll fight to my last til i hope to see the day when the Amarrian Empire themselves are made to live in such conditions, but i fear that will never come....the day that i see you living in rubble and burning houses edges ever closer." *Lazari chuckles quietly as he reads the comm message Quite amusing are your people's taunts and flaunts about losing the Bleak Lands.. We have no need for such systems.. they were just points to get more slaves... We have plenty for now... I probably own half your family I suppose.. but never can tell for these animals all look the same. Keep the Bleak Lands.. cheer all you want.. but when the time is right, God will strike... This will be a long war.. just wait..
Jocian Orem	Posted - 2008.06.23 15:53:00 - [5] Originally by: DeT Resprox I'll fight to my last til i hope to see the day when the Amarrian Empire themselves are made to live in such conditions, but i fear that will never come....the day that i see you living in rubble and burning houses edges ever closer." And at last we have the truth of it. All of your raving about 'freedom' is merely an excuse, a convenient justification to engage in wonton murder and destruction. There are billions of commoners within the Empire, who do not own slaves, and aside from being more civilised via faith in God, are likely little different from your own Matar in the "Republic" who go to work every day to provide for their families. Yet you would see them all dead, or 'living in rubble and burning houses', not because it will do anything to make the lot of your own people better, but simply to satiate your primitive bloodlust.
Agustus Caesar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.06.23 16:55:00 - [6] Edited by: Agustus Caesar on 23/06/2008 16:57:06 Aside from the obvious moral issues I believe you left out a few more benefits employment has versus slavery. Here's my anaylsis (keep in mind these are merely observations, I have no formal education in econmics or sociology) Employment - Employment offers monetary compensation for the time and skills of employees. Depending on the length of employment and the employer this may or may not include various benefits. -For the most part the employee is expected to provide for themselves when not on the clock -Most jobs are on an "at will" basis, meaning either the employee or employer can terminate employment at any time they so choose. -Contract employees can typically end their employment at any time they choose, as to avoid employees intentionally sabotoging their work to get fired. -Employers have great incentive to treat talented (or hard) workers humanely and with respect, otherwise the employee could simply pack up and move to greener pastures. -During tough economic times employees maybe laid off for many reasons ranging from being the least efficent worker (or most lazy) currently employed or lack of ability to continue to do the work effectively. -All but the lowest paying jobs pay well over living expenses, allowing savy employees to save for their inevitable retirement. Slavery -Living conditions and treatment differ vastly depending on the temperment of the slave owner, their wealth, and the type of work slaves are expected to preform. -Slave owners have little legal, econmic, or moral obligation to ensure slaves are content or even safe. -Slaves can expect life long fufillment of their basic needs, however again, based on the disposition of the owner that life could be very short. -If used in any technical fields slaves can learn skills they can use during employment when and if they are released. -Slaves are well conditioned to Amarrian society, but the benefit of this is debatable -If mistreated slaves have little recourse beyond sucide -Slaves cannot end their servitude unilaterally. I believe I about covered the main aspects of both labor systems, I look forward to this (hopefully) being a reasoned debate, something that is becoming all to scarce on IGS these days. ----------------------------- Naturally my views are my own as I'm not my alliance's spokesman, ect.
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.06.23 17:47:00 - [7] Edited by: Victor Vision on 23/06/2008 17:56:23 Originally by: Agustus Caesar Edited by: Agustus Caesar on 23/06/2008 16:57:06 Aside from the obvious moral issues I believe you left out a few more benefits employment has versus slavery. Here's my anaylsis (keep in mind these are merely observations, I have no formal education in econmics or sociology) Employment - Employment offers monetary compensation for the time and skills of employees. Depending on the length of employment and the employer this may or may not include various benefits. -For the most part the employee is expected to provide for themselves when not on the clock -Most jobs are on an "at will" basis, meaning either the employee or employer can terminate employment at any time they so choose. -Contract employees can typically end their employment at any time they choose, as to avoid employees intentionally sabotoging their work to get fired. -Employers have great incentive to treat talented (or hard) workers humanely and with respect, otherwise the employee could simply pack up and move to greener pastures. -During tough economic times employees maybe laid off for many reasons ranging from being the least efficent worker (or most lazy) currently employed or lack of ability to continue to do the work effectively. -All but the lowest paying jobs pay well over living expenses, allowing savy employees to save for their inevitable retirement. Slavery -Living conditions and treatment differ vastly depending on the temperment of the slave owner, their wealth, and the type of work slaves are expected to preform. -Slave owners have little legal, econmic, or moral obligation to ensure slaves are content or even safe. -Slaves can expect life long fufillment of their basic needs, however again, based on the disposition of the owner that life could be very short. -If used in any technical fields slaves can learn skills they can use during employment when and if they are released. -Slaves are well conditioned to Amarrian society, but the benefit of this is debatable -If mistreated slaves have little recourse beyond sucide -Slaves cannot end their servitude unilaterally. I believe I about covered the main aspects of both labor systems, I look forward to this (hopefully) being a reasoned debate, something that is becoming all to scarce on IGS these days. Yes, I agree with the points you put up. An important point you left out is the possibility of spiritual enlightenment when working for the right master. But I guess that situation could be reached to some degree in an employment status as well. Out of curiosity, I have some questions for you: Do you agree that an extremely low paid or unemployed person - struggling to stay alive - would benefit from being a slave, I wonder? Do you agree that a person in need of spiritual enlightenment, but an unwillingness or inability to freely work on recieving it, should become a slave no matter what his opinions about this are? Last but not least, would you see the possibility to choose between a life as a slave or life as an employee as an advantage? Three very different questions, your opinions would interest me. EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE History Wiki
Agustus Caesar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.06.23 20:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Victor Vision Do you agree that an extremely low paid or unemployed person - struggling to stay alive - could benefit from being a slave, I wonder? Perhaps, only if the person in question was free to leave whenever they so choose. Taking everything you say on face value, the only difference between someone working minimum wage and a slave is the right to tell your boss to "take this job and shove it"; perhaps a minor difference in your eyes, but a critical one in mine. Originally by: Victor Vision Do you agree that a person in need of spiritual enlightenment, but an unwillingness or inability to freely work on recieving it, should become a slave no matter what his opinions about this are? To be blunt Mr. Vision, being an Atheist I don't give a toss about spiritual enlightenment. That said if someone wishes to seek it out for themselves, more power to them, I don't look down on those of faith; I realize it comforts some. However forcing someone into "enlightnement" through any means is a futile and empty gesture (moral afronts aside). Originally by: Victor Vision Last but not least, would you see the possibility to choose between a life as a slave or life as an employee as an advantage? It would certianly be a step in the right direction, but not much of one if a slave can't choose to be an employee. ----------------------------- Naturally my views are my own as I'm not my alliance's spokesman, ect.
Jasperus Dolorosa Hedion University	Posted - 2008.06.23 20:53:00 - [9] Now this brings us the the ultimate moral question. Being an Amarrian by bloodline and at heart, it cannot be argued that slavery is not a choice. God gave man free will to do whatever he so desired: smell the fresh air, explore the known world, and innovate(which has made the entire universe known to man, and no more has it just been imagination, but making the known world bigger with less in it). But a slave is enslaved by men of free will. Is it not unjust, as Amarrians, to deny a slave their free will. Yes, they can commit suicide, die of natural causes that they brought upon themselves such as over-exertion, and being mistreated after defying their master's biddings. However, many will never raise a single child, never experience that orgasmic pleasure with that significant other. Never will they have the chance to own something themselves, or feel pride in anything they do. There is a book from ancient scriptures dating back to the world before the portal closed linking the Old World to New Eden. Much of the pages were missing, but never-the-less I read its contents- wondering how the Empire has strayed so far away from its ideals that made it great. In the book encompassed two main characters: one of high authority in his Empire of many Gods. A God for every peice of nature, and made-up idols manifested by insane Emperor's before then. But he did not believe in these so-called Gods, as everything to him was proven in arguements, evidence, and temporal authority. Nor did his different-cultured slave, whom before he was captured, was intellectual and respected among men. They build a bond, which is enhanced throughout the book by this increasing interest in a man that was said to be the son of God..which somehow is related to my name.. This is uncertain. But the book I speak of is known simply as The Robe. You may find a copy of it somewhere in most Hedion Universites tucked away behind books of heroism. The fact of believing in something higher than ones self is the only way to happiness. To deny spiritual authority, lead to liberalism may millenia ago, causing many good things, but also many horrific monstrosities that taught the first habitat the meaning of good will. Eventually, over time, that teaching has faded.. And at that costs great turmoil. I could blabber on forever, but I am old, and must rest my spirit. But I will say that the first man that was enslaved by the Empire made it a machine, not a nation. Quote from holy scripture in the Apostilic Archives in Leva 'God said "Vengeance is Mine"'. And the coincidential Elder attack, which was met by thirsty Minmatar to go to war with their previous enslavers. They are either breaking God's code, or serving His justice. In the end... It is a matter of Faith. _______________________________________ Executive Commander in liberal politics
Veron Daerth Karos Fleet Systems	Posted - 2008.06.23 21:03:00 - [10] At last, a comms channel addressing something that I have been concerned with for some time. Some points that I believe that you overlooked Pilot Caeser, is that, for me and may owners at least, a slave is an investment. I pay for their training, their housing, their food, their clothing, their very lives (If I bought new slaves, which I generally dont, and no, NONE of my slaves are for sale, at any price.) and to beat, maltreat, or degrade their usefulness or performance through abuse or lack of adequate shelter, medical care, basic comfort (yes, studies show that happy or generally happy people work better then downtrodden, beaten people) or any of a number or factors basically kills that investment. I will detail my process (from birth to death) through which I treat my slaves a bit later. Someone mentioned ethics and morality. Is it moral to expect a society as a whole to support someone that is unable or unwilling to perform useful work? To punish the successful (through taxation and welfare) in order to aid the unsuccessful? Is it ethical to have a portion of your own society suffer homelessness and poverty (like the economic issues facing the current Matari populace) because of factors they cannot control. A wise man once said "True freedom is only the freedom to starve." and he was correct. People are lazy, greedy, venal, brutal, and self-centered. Slaves are not afforded the option to be these things, or at least do not have the option to allow these qualities to affect their work to a great degree. Thus they are (again, if well cared for) more productive than any other kind of "free" worker. Now the masters are free to be greedy, lazy, venal, and brutal, but that is where religion is supposed to come in. God is incorruptible and is SUPPOSED to be the example of how the Master is SUPPOSED to act. How he is SUPPOSED to care for his slaves, much like God cares for each of us. Alas that the law is so easily swayed, and that secular wealth and power outweighs temporal ethics and morals. But even here, the law can be changed and the societal behavior can be altered, but that all takes time, lots and lots of time. It takes generations to really effect change on a social level like that. My great grandfather would have ridiculed me as a "slave-lover" and my great great grandfather would have probably killed me for being a Heretic for how I treat my slaves. My grandfather would have understood, but not approved and my father would have agreed somewhat and did try a different path of ownership. My way of slave treatment is a logical step in a progression of events that have taken century upon century to accomplish. This is unfortunately, not fast enough for many, and they lack the patience and true vision to see how slavery as it currently is is far more humane than it was when first instituted and how much worse it truly could be. They also fail to see how, if harnessed correctly, the social institution of slavery can be a positive thing if controlled properly, not with secular laws (which can be broken, changed, bribed, or ignored) but with social restraints that are currently lacking (these are demonstrably more difficult to bribe ignore or break) and would act as a damper on the negative aspects of slavery as an institution. My way of dealing with slaves is detailed below. It has taken my Family several generations to come to this current incarnation of the process, and it is a work in progress. Firstly, slaves need identity. So you dont move them about in job-lots or uproot them every few years or so. They also do better in formed family groups. They care for each other, and the elders can and do suppress the negative inclinations of the youth to a great degree. To begin, you must realize that the "slave" is not an animal, or a machine, but a human. As such he/she has limits that must be respected, as well as flaws to be addressed and inherent advantages that can be used. (contd next transmission)

Veron Daerth Karos Fleet Systems	Posted - 2008.06.23 21:28:00 - [11] (contd from above) Also you must provide some things to maximize their performance. It all begins with conception. A slave on my estates will be born in a proper medical facility. Before that however, he will have been treated neo-natally for any genetic defects that would have hindered his makeup or development. Also dealt with are any mental deficiencies as can be detected, ****ation specifically. Reverse genome therapy is used to insure only healthy offspring are produced. It is also relatively cheap in the long run, and is where your investment begins. Birth is accomplished with attendant medical personnel and the mother and father retain their children to raise. They usually live in a family dwelling with several generations of the family. The dwelling is usually their progenitors that has been passed down to them. (Yes, they own it, its theirs to do with what they want. I can take it back if I so desire, but why would I as it harms this process) The child is cared for by his elders (usually the very old and the immediate siblings) while his parents labor in any of a number of jobs. At the age of 5, they begin basic schooling for language (Amarrian) and basic math and reading and learning skills. This progresses until reaching puberty. At puberty he is moved to a more advanced school and removed from his family for extended periods of time not to exceed 3/4 of the planetary year, for 1/4 of the year he is given a "break" to go home and reaffirm family bonds and disseminate what he has learned to his siblings. Upon reaching his majority of 17 years (standard) he is put into a vocational facility to learn a trade (as determined by a battery of aptitude tests and other factors, no he doesnt get to choose) and he will remain there full time until being fully trained. He is then placed into a barracks and begins his initial labor cycles until he reaches 35 standard years of age. At 35, he is allowed to choose a mate (from a pool of preselected females of comparable age that are known to him and that he has been working alongside and is known to have achieved at least a basic level of comfort with, this cuts down on marital stress and helps reinforce mating bonds.) He is then moved out of the bachelor barracks and back into his household of his birth. He can construct a dwelling of his own and often has the assistance of his extended clan or family living close by. He has a child. (no more than 6 offspring per mother father pairing) He will labor for a total of 35 years (standard) after graduating his vocational facility. At the time he may choose to retire to a small plot of land or cash that plot (at market value) in for a stake in any of the planetary businesses (not all of which are mine, and thus they have income not dependent on me) They also have their stipends through their working lifetime to use. The cycle repeats with their children. All their lives, my slaves receive nutrition based upon a calculated intake need based on their type of work, and sufficient caloric and nutritional intake to assure good health and living conditions (starvation aids disease and disease kills off your investments). Medical care at a level and quality to ensure good health and aid to injured slaves is a necessity. (If you lose an arm, you can be retrained to office or clerical work, thus retaining the initial investment in the slave, waste not, want not**) Slaves are given a stipend from the first day they begin to work which is a percentage of the total value of whatever it is they produce or the market value of the service they provide. This encourages them to perform better and gives them a stake in what they do. Since they have very low household outlay (bills) they spend it on things like furniture and such that makes their lives a bit more comfortable (comfort and professional pride, two birds with one stone, and all for a very low outlay on my part) Contd
Major Death Sarz'na Khumatari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2008.06.23 21:48:00 - [12] A gilded cage is still a cage. My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was removed for lack of EVE content! ;) CCP say 'Shut up about bugs and eat your eye candy!'
Veron Daerth Karos Fleet Systems	Posted - 2008.06.23 21:50:00 - [13] (Contd from above) By allowing the slaves to remain in a single place for generational periods, you can construst small towns and villages for them, or indeed, just provide the basic structure for it, a small paved market, a Chapel to congregate around on holy days and for weekly services, and basic water and electrical access. Sewage and sanitation is also very important. The slaves you settle there will call that place "home" for centuries and will come to love and defend it with their very beings. It is the place their progenitors have lived and died. It is the place they grew up, where they ran and played when small, where their mates probably came from (or somewhere close by and markedly similar), it is where their family is, where their parents are and where they will go when they "retire" and where they will be buried when they die. It is where all things, both good and bad, begin, the first kiss, the school bully, the harvest festivals, the yearly Holy Rites, the local priest that advises them. You must understand, this is not a thing that can be achieved in only a few years, but will take generations to achieve. My grandfather began it, I simply continue it. My great great great great grandchildren might finish it, and in so finishing it, begin it anew in another (hopefully better) direction. There are many pitfalls to this as well that you, as the Master, are responsible for. You MUST find overseers, doctors, priests and teachers that will aid you in this, and that will not abuse the slaves (this is actually what has taken the longest to effect in my Family's project, I have had to execute a few overseers over the years for abuses or shorting my system to make a profit, my grandfather had to execute many many more to get this across to them.) You must make an occasional visit to each generation of slaves IN PERSON to get a good look at them and to let them know that you care for them. I make a yearly visit to each of my estates and compounds, since they are fairly well clustered on a relatively small number of moons, planets and stations, it is easy for me to spend a couple of days in each place. It only takes about a month (galactic standard) of total travel and time. Meet with the village and town elders, hear their complaints (Especially about your overseers and magistrates, I recommend doing it tacitly, and have spies in the slave populations to keep an eye on your overseers and officials. I kid you not they are the weakest link in this chain.) and see the people/slaves that you care for. Take an interest in them, and they will return it. As it stands now, I do not own slaves or even tribes of Matari. I own a group of people that are genetically crossbreeds of any of the slave races that have been in my Family since my great grandfathers time. They have their own languages (a mix of Amarrian, Matari dialects, and some Ni-Kunni and others) and their own customs. They have their own festivals that coincide with their respective worlds and and their own little cultures. Yes there are those that do not acclimate well to this project, and they are placed elsewhere. Yes all my slaves learn about God and his Word through the Scriptures, though not exactly what is mainstream in the Empire (I have been called a traitor and heretic for some of what my priests teach the slaves) but I wont go into that right now for times sake. Yes they do work, and I profit from it, but so do they. We are in this together, and I cannot change the Empire myself, alone. But I can change the things I can affect today, and tomorrow. If I simply freed all my slaves (1.3 million of them on a handful of worlds, a few moons and some stations) they would go where? Do what? Be placed in an environment where they have no family ties? Where they dont fit in? Where their evolved cultures dont mesh with the locals? For the love of God, they dont even have facial tattoos and most arent even recognizable as Matari anymore.
Veron Daerth Karos Fleet Systems	Posted - 2008.06.23 22:01:00 - [14] Edited by: Veron Daerth on 23/06/2008 22:03:15 (contd from above WOW, I should have done this as a separate PDF transmission, too late now) They would be cast out by Matari society, they would not recognize the social structure, would have no tribal place to call "home" and would have damned little in the way of land or work to support themselves. They would have access to only the most limited of medical care as could be provided by the charity of others and would eat much the same. I care for my people, and that what they really are, not slaves to be discarded, or workers to hired and fired according to need, but MY PEOPLE. Those that would harm them, even if it be the Empire itself, I would crush and destroy. God gave them to me as a trust, to care for and guide, and I have done as best I can for them. Thye have a life, and have connections to the worlds where they live. They have ties now, not of pain alone (though some of that too) but of life and happiness and of blood to the land where they live now. They are not animals in a pen, or vermin to be crushed and abused, and are not machines to be harnessed and used to destruction. They are my people, and they serve me. They and I both serve the same God and work together to make our lives a bit better than they were. Thats what I and my Father and my Grandfather (and Great Grandfather, really, he began it with the whole "retainer" program for the best of his slaves) have worked for, and I will continue to work for. There will be setbacks, and failures, but we must strive to throw off the ethical and moral rot that is modern slavery. We must make the other Masters see that owning someone is NOT one sided, but is an exchange of obligations and responsibilities. God himself demands that we guide and help the slaves reach enlightenment, and if we fail (as I believe that the current system fails to do) this charge, we are no more than the animals we accuse the Matari to be. Edit: (By the Hand of God, this turned out to be very much more than I had intended. I hope Pilot Ren sees this, as I promised to explain to her how my views of slavery differ from hers. I think this does it. Lord Vision, I apologize for monopolizing your transmission feed to such an extent.)
Agustus Caesar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.06.23 22:34:00 - [15] I had to modify your quotes Mr. Daerth, this is in no way ment to diminish your arguments but to conform to text limits. Originally by: Veron Daerth About his own treatment of slaves Again we hit the brick wall against which so many similar discussions have crashed. Imperial society teaches Amarrians from birth that they are geneticly superior in every way, that other races (in particular the Minmatar) are inferior and barely worthy of contempt. Slaves have no rights, infact the system from the ground up seems to be geared toward abuse, and with the outright racism espoused by Amarrian theology we're supposed to believe it is a fair and equitable system? Originally by: Veron Daerth about the ethics of slavery The problem again is the absolute lack of legal obligation for slave masters to conform to the implicit obligation to care for slaves as is supposedly written in the Scriptures. While you may see the moral obligation to see your slaves are cared for that hardly makes such a principle universal. Under free market capitalism the employer must look out for their employees or risk loosing talent to more agreeable employers. Originally by: Veron Daerth about the legal aspects of slavery Mr. Daerth, what you fail to realize is that the current Religious laws and regulations regarding slavery are routinely being bribed past, ignored, ect..., many slave owners don't see slavery as a religous institution in which to bring heathens to enlightenment, they either see it as a means of cheap, expendable labour; or as a means of inflicting suffering on people they have been taught from birth to precieve as less than nothing. Originally by: Veron Daerth on the treatment of his own slaves If what you describe was the norm of slaves in the Empire it might be somewhat more tollerable, but such conditions are rare in the Empire at best. Originally by: Veron Daerth On comments on Matari society Perhaps this is the only point on which we can agree, I have long lobbied against the strict adherence to outdated tribal traditions, as I view them as scarcely better than the irrational hatred the Amarrian religion espouses, regretfully however, I've made little progress in that regard. Originally by: Veron Daerth further on his treatment of slaves again it is regeretful you are sadly in the minority on your treatment of slaves, many slave owners treat their slaves as little more than biological machines ----------------------------- Naturally my views are my own as I'm not my alliance's spokesman, ect.
Redbad TSL Wolfpack	Posted - 2008.06.23 23:11:00 - [16] The apple vs. the pear. Slavery is wrong and like slavery and apartheid, poverty is not natural. It is man-made and it can be overcome and eradicated by the actions of human beings.
Veron Daerth Karos Fleet Systems	Posted - 2008.06.23 23:26:00 - [17] Indeed, Pilot Caesar, I do agree with your summation. Note that I did not intend to imply that current religious law and temporal law in any way insure the equitable conduct of the slave-masters. I do realize that current laws and codes are being bribed and ignored and flaunted. It was the hardest part of my Family's project to find overseers and magistrates and priests and teachers that would NOT abuse the slaves for any of a litany of reasons. Indeed, more than a few have been executed for abusing my slaves, and even more when my grandfather began this project in earnest. It is with great sadness that I completely acknowledge your assessment that I and the others like me are in a distinct minority, but again, I cannot change the world alone. What I DO seek to do it to change it slowly with the aid of my own offspring and their peers. I we can change enough minds in the Empire, perhaps (like a small avalanche that grows larger as it progressed down the mountain) in time we could indeed change the Empire for the better. I do not believe that I am somehow superior to my slaves because God made me so, I believe that I am in a superior position to care for and keep them secure, financially, spiritually, and socially. Do not the masters of your own tribes or megacorps or districts seek to keep their clansmen, laborers, or constituents well and good? I seek nothing more than the same thing, to keep my people, my retainers, my "slaves", well and good. If only more would come to see things as I do, but alas, that will, again, take time. What I seek to do is a Great Work, not to be rushed, or hurried, or even to be finished in my lifetime. That is, frankly, impossible. It is to lay the foundation of this Work for my children, and they for theirs, and so on and so forth. Generations from now, it may be done, or not, that is out of my hands, and again frankly, yours. But I can make a difference, here, today, and strive to make my Empire better, for it IS my Empire, no less that the Empress', or the Nobles. We all are supposed to make the universe better, under God, and to spread his word to all peoples that they may come to know of His love and care for each of you. As it stands, the current system we have is not sufficient for this, and is far too easily abused. I agree Pilot Caesar, things DO need to change, and I and others like me are working on that, a little bit at a time. May God keep and bless you.
Raznarok Imperial Shipment	Posted - 2008.06.23 23:46:00 - [18] Smirks at the ironic Amarr replies and starts to mutter sheep noises "baaaa" To what benefit does a slave gain, from their "masters enlightenment"? How does this benefit their master? How does it benefit the empire? Who are you to make claims to this, where is your solid evidence. She leans back in her chair and starts thinking about what so called "god" would say about these views.
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.06.23 23:59:00 - [19] Edited by: Victor Vision on 24/06/2008 00:09:29 Lord Daerth, I am glad you joined this communication. You are good with words, and manage to describe your views very well. Best regards, VV Mr. Caesar I am sorry, I do not know of your title, so I will address you as Mr. for now. But to my point: I am glad you are giving your views in a level headed way. While some Amarrians might disagree, I am sympathetic towards Heiderans views on communicating with other races. Like them - god forbid I compare myself to them! But I have similar views - I see communication and well run diplomatic relations with other races as important. Back on topic of slavery, I can see from your communications, that while you may never truly approve of slavery, you see room for improvement which Lord Daerth for example seems to hold as well. I personally agree in general, but must warn against an overly soft treatment of slaves. A soldier for example, who is treated too soft, may never become a good soldier. I see it similar with slaves. A slave treated too soft may not become a good slave. Please do not misunderstand. I in no way endorse mistreatment of slaves. Just my personal style is more to rule with a just, but firm hand. May I remind you that even a Heir had to be punished since they had sinned not only against slaves but even against fellow Amarrians! Heir Aritcio Kor-Azor was treated according to Amarrian law for their misdoings, after the kind visit of a Speaker of thruth. If you research the story regarding them, you will find that Heir Aritcio Kor-Azor probably will never forget this treatment. Unlike some say, us Amarrians do not see ourselves as perfect beings. We have a long culture, and know many things, but a wise man constantly works on improving upon himself. I see room for improvement in the way our slave system works, so I hope a constructive discussion can continue on this subject. In the end it will be up to our leaders if laws are changed, but knowing our leaders are blessed with wisdom, I am confident with time, changes to these laws will be possible. Best regards, VV EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE History Wiki
Agustus Caesar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.06.24 00:16:00 - [20] Originally by: Victor Vision Mr. Caesar I am sorry, I do not know of your title, so I will address you as Mr. for now. Lieutenant will do for now untill my superiors see fit to promote me, thank you. Originally by: Victor Vision Back on topic of slavery, I can see from your communications, that while you may never truly approve of slavery, you see room for improvement which Lord Daerth for example seems to hold as well. Indeed you are correct, but perhaps my own experiences within the Amarrian slave system color my view toward the topic toward a more absolute abolitionist point of view. I mostly oppose the slavery based on race, that the Empire practices; i can muster little oposition to towards the enslavement of criminals. Originally by: Victor Vision I personally agree in general, but must warn against an overly soft treatment of slaves. A soldier for example, who is treated too soft, may never become a good soldier. I see it similar with slaves. A slave treated too soft may not become a good slave. Please do not misunderstand. I in no way endorse mistreatment of slaves. Just my personal style is more to rule with a just, but firm hand. The difference between slaves and soldiers is that all the nations I can think of have militaries that are on a strictly volunteer basis; the soldier volunteers himself to be exhausted and shot at for both duty and comphensation; whereas the typical Amarrian slave is in their position for no other reason than having the misfortune of emerging from the wrong womb. Originally by: Victor Vision May I remind you that even a Heir had to be punished since they had sinned not only against slaves but even against fellow Amarrians! Heir Aritcio was treated according to Amarrian law for their misdoings. If you research the story regarding them, you will find that Heir Aritcio probably will never forget this treatment. I suspect Aritcio's punishment was more grounded in the fact he abused his fellow Amarrians than against his slaves. From what I've seen even the most depraved abuse of slaves (so long as it isn't deemed heretical) is punishable by, at most, a stiff fine. Originally by: Victor Vision Unlike some say, us Amarrians do not see ourselves as perfect beings. We have a long culture, and know many things, but a wise man constantly works on improving upon himself. I see room for improvement in the way our slave system works, so I hope a constructive discussion can continue on this subject. In the end it will be up to our leaders if laws are changed, but knowing our leaders are blessed with wisdom, I am confident with time, changes to these laws will be possible. Indeed I realize some Amarr are as humble as they claim to be but it seems the same proportion of Amarr that see themselves above their fellow man roughly corresponds to the proportion that treat their slaves as less than dirt. I fear given the current state of Amarrian politics that progressive policies in the Empire stand anymore chance than secular polices do in the Republic. ----------------------------- Naturally my views are my own as I'm not my alliance's spokesman, ect.

Veron Daerth Karos Fleet Systems	Posted - 2008.06.24 00:22:00 - [21] Pilot Raznarok, the slave gains the comfort of the word of God and, incidentally, gains useful skills, an assured place in the world, and the knowledge that he must not continually strive to keep his family fed and housed. The master gains good, effective workers, and the knowledge that he as done well by the Lord and by his slaves. The Empire benefits because it has a motivated, well cared for work-force that can produce more, more cheaply than any other Empire. Well cared for slaves do not blow up factories, to not incite rebellion, and do not kill their masters. This is because they know that they have worth and are basically satisfied with their lives. I personally benefit from my project with some of the highest productivity ratings in my various farms and manufacturing facilities. The slaves benefit with food, and housing, and medical care, and education, all of it for free. I make back the capital I expend on each slave from the increased output and productiveness they return on that investment. They reward me with loyalty and by simply leading good lives, I reward them with freedom and enlightenment at the end of their time of labor to me. Really it all is cyclic, and there are good and bad points to it, but again, I only do the best I can with what I have. I incidentally forgot to mention that only the first 3 offspring of any slave couple are enslaved to me, the rest are born freed-men (or women) and are given that status accordingly. Upon "retirement" my slaves are also manumitted, and are technically freedmen. They are free to go where and how they will, though most choose to stay where they have family, lives, children and so on. A lot of the children born free choose to go out into the world and inevitable return home, bringing with them valuable experience from outside their birth culture. They also, incidentally, receive an education up to their 17th birthday, like all the others. What they do after that is up to them. Though, they are always welcome into their birth homes. Yes we have had some come back and attempt to "liberate" their parents, but they inevitably fail, not because i stop them or their parents, but because the question always arises. "Son (or daughter), if you seek to take us with you, how will we take your grandpa/grandma, all your brothers/sisters, your cousins, nieces, nephews, aunts or uncles. How will we take your mothers flower garden, or our home? Or your great grandpa's grave over there in the hill? How will we take the Chapel, or Father <name here> who advises us and confesses us and aids us in our times of need and loss? How will we take Elder <name> who leads our village, or the rest of our people? Those questions always stump the youngsters, who never think beyond their passion and fire. Basically their predicament is the same as any who would seek to free all my "slaves". You cannot move the entire planet, and all it history (good and bad), the land and homes, and places of work, the memories, both familial and personal. You cannot take the remembrance of the labor to make your retirement home better for your offspring, to till the earth and make it produce, to go to Chapel and congregate with your neighbors and peers and fellows. To have a hard earned drink after a hard days work. All this and more. They have progressed to the point that if I could afford to, and the Empire let me, I WOULD free them. But as it stands, I cant, (working on it) and the Empire wont. My Family gave our slaves the framework to make something out of themselves, my slaves have made themselves a people, separate and individual from the Matari and their various other ancestors. That is the point, they arent "your" people anymore, and in many ways, they arent "mine" either. They have become their own.
Jove X	Posted - 2008.06.24 00:34:00 - [22] Originally by: DeT Resprox "Abandoning slavery would indeed show how the weak Amarrian Empire would be unable to fend for themselves. This is becoming noticable even now as you find yourself unable to fight against the Matari race taking your people down in The Bleak Lands. It could be true that the Amarr Empire is weak, because it relies on slaves. However, if the Amarr Empire is weak, I wonder what DeT Resprox would say about the Matari who allowed themselves to be enslaved, by such a weak empire?
Veron Daerth Karos Fleet Systems	Posted - 2008.06.24 00:36:00 - [23] Ah, once again I greet you Lord Vision. I am most glad that you saw fit to address this topic in the IGS and that there has been some thoughtful exchange on it (irrespective of some people's rather.... limited .... responses) and hope for there to be more. I am always seeing to make myself better and to help others to better both themselves and their charges. I am sad to say that most do not seem to even know of their responsibilities to the Empire or to their slaves. I fear that this sad state of affairs has come to bite us upon our asses. To those that would seek to converse in a manner of respect and propriety, I give you the blessing of the Almighty. To those that do not, I pray for God's Wisdom to grant you enlightenment.
Agustus Caesar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.06.24 00:39:00 - [24] Originally by: Veron Daerth What I DO seek to do it to change it slowly with the aid of my own offspring and their peers. I we can change enough minds in the Empire, perhaps (like a small avalanche that grows larger as it progressed down the mountain) in time we could indeed change the Empire for the better. I do not believe that I am somehow superior to my slaves because God made me so, I believe that I am in a superior position to care for and keep them secure, financially, spiritually, and socially. While your rationality with regards to race is to be commended; the simple fact is while waiting for the "avalanche" to take place millions of slaves suffer under tha "care" of people who regard them of slavers who regard them has scarecly deserving of the air they breathe. Originally by: Veron Daerth Do not the masters of your own tribes or megacorps or districts seek to keep their clansmen, laborers, or constituents well and good? I seek nothing more than the same thing, to keep my people, my retainers, my "slaves", well and good. If only more would come to see things as I do, but alas, that will, again, take time. The difference between the non-Empire entites you cited and slavers is the simple fact that if a tribesman/corprate employee/federal citizen resented their treatment by their superiors they can simply leave....slaves have no such luxury. ----------------------------- Naturally my views are my own as I'm not my alliance's spokesman, ect.
Veron Daerth Karos Fleet Systems	Posted - 2008.06.24 01:05:00 - [25] Edited by: Veron Daerth on 24/06/2008 01:05:19 Very true Lt. Caesar (apologies for not addressing you properly), and I assure you that I am fully aware that there is much injustice in the current system of slavery that the Empires uses. I am also aware that my system simply exchanges one type of injustice for what is arguably another. What matters is that what I do is hopefully going to eventually shatter a way of life that makes justice impossible. The path to that new, more just way of life will be long, and many will suffer, both the slaves that fall and die along the way, and the souls of the slave-masters that fall into sin and eventually Hell. I do what I do to make a future that is more just, for everyone, not just the slaves, though, they will arguably benefit the most and the most immediately. I strive to teach that we are all Men, and are therefore flawed. I am no more superior than you, I seek to get across to my brothers and sisters of the Empire that they should not put such great store in these mortal titles and trappings for God does not carry them far, certainly not into Heaven. I am the Master because I own the land my slaves live on, I provide the food they eat, and the homes they live in. I see to their education and care. I aid them in their lives as best I can. That is why I am the master, and they serve me. But I also serve them. I know this is not what you want to hear, and that it saddens you that it is this way. But I can do no other thing, see no other way that would reasonably end the cycle of endless and wasteful and sinful hate and abuse that is perpetuated today. I pray each day for God to enlighten me as to how I can do better, and each day, I do as best as I can. The Almighty keep you, Lt Caesar, for I fear you will need His aid to weather the coming storm.
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.06.24 01:52:00 - [26] Originally by: Agustus Caesar ...perhaps my own experiences within the Amarrian slave system color my view toward the topic toward a more absolute abolitionist point of view. Lieutenant Caesar, if you were unjustly mistreated, let me step forward and apoligize to you for this. I know this is unlikely to heal wounds, but take it as a symbolic gesture from my part. Originally by: Agustus Caesar I mostly oppose the slavery based on race, that the Empire practices; This was born out of a purely practical nature. Our ancestors were faced with the discovery of primitive races, and found the best way to civilize them was by enslaving them. I too, would call for a more diverse selection in current times. It fills my heart with joy and pride, to see civilized Matari, Ni-Kunni and other former slaves walk free. Originally by: Agustus Caesar I can muster little oposition to towards the enslavement of criminals. Yes, for them enslavement is a compliment, and can only be offered if their crimes have not been too terrible. Outrageous criminals may not become slaves, their judgement must be brought upon them by God. By ending them in this universe, we send them to God so the Allmighty may judge. Originally by: Agustus Caesar The difference between slaves and soldiers is that all the nations I can think of have militaries that are on a strictly volunteer basis; the soldier volunteers himself to be exhausted and shot at for both duty and comphensation; whereas the typical Amarrian slave is in their position for no other reason than having the misfortune of emerging from the wrong womb. Why yes, I see this comparison was unfortunate. I meant no offense, Leutnant Caesar. On the point of having been born in the wrong womb... If an enslaved criminal or uncivilized person, or one who became slave by free will, gives birth to a child, this child remains property of the owner of the slave. This is mainly a legal issue. Originally by: Agustus Caesar I suspect Aritcio's punishment was more grounded in the fact he abused his fellow Amarrians than against his slaves. Yes, regarding the issue concerning Heir Aritcio. It was mainly meant as an example that we punish Amarrians who have done wrong. Not only our slaves have to follow rules, we ourselves have to follow rules as well, including the more prominent figures in our empire. Originally by: Agustus Caesar From what I've seen even the most depraved abuse of slaves (so long as it isn't deemed heretical) is punishable by, at most, a stiff fine. Do not forget, many crimes in regard to slaves are likely to break other rules as well. Depending on the gravity of a forbidden action, treatment may always include sending the offender to judgement before God. Originally by: Agustus Caesar I realize some Amarr are as humble as they claim to be but it seems the same proportion of Amarr that see themselves above their fellow man roughly corresponds to the proportion that treat their slaves as less than dirt. An Amarrian - except the Emporer - who sees himself above all fellow man, commits a deadly sin, since he places himself on the same level as God or the Emporer. For this kind of attitude it is within reason to give that sinner the possibility to justify himself directly before God. Originally by: Agustus Caesar I fear given the current state of Amarrian politics that progressive policies in the Empire stand anymore chance than secular polices do in the Republic. I hope not. Progression in the form of cultural advancement is positive. I can not state my views on Lady Sarum publicly - and this is an open channel - but I must assume if she is chosen by God to become our Empress, that she brings all the qualities needed for continued improvement of our society. If - God forbid! - Lady Sarum turns out to be... I am sorry, I can not speak or think such... Let me put it in other words. Impersonators on a high level face immeasurable punishment. EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE History Wiki
Victor Vision Central Intelligence Service	Posted - 2008.06.24 02:02:00 - [27] Edited by: Victor Vision on 24/06/2008 02:05:25 continued... As you can see Lieutenant Caesar, many of the points you criticise are already punishalble crimes in our Amarr society. Still, more can and should be done. If we continue down the road of constructive discussion, much can be gained for all. My prayers go out to those who are losing their lifes in current hostilities. May better times come upon us all. EVE War I-The Beginning - EVE History Wiki
Veron Daerth Karos Fleet Systems	Posted - 2008.06.24 02:10:00 - [28] Edited by: Veron Daerth on 24/06/2008 02:10:39 Hmm, good points Lord Vision. I feel that I just contest a few of them, however, since I believe that the Emperor or Empress is still a Man (meaning human and mortal) and is chosen not by God himself, but by other Men, in a contest amongst Men, adjudged by Men. Man is flawed, or we would be as equals to God, and therefore, any system, however just in ideal or conception, is inherently flawed. Even the Emperor (or Empress). This is not to say the the Emperor should not or does not embody all that is what makes Amarr great, but that they are flawed, and not immortal or equal to God Himself, and so may make mistakes. The Succession Trials (another system I do not support) are also creations of Men, and therefore flawed. I do not advocate the dissolution of the Empire as an Empire, or the dissolution of all our systems of rule or government. All I ask is for the citizenry to perhaps consider that the Emperor might be mistaken or outright wrong sometimes. I ask for thought on the part of our citizenry, not blind obedience. I have frankly, taken no oath to the new Empress, not on my own behalf, or that of my Family. It is likely that I will have to give that oath on behalf of my family, but Sarum will never gain my personal oath of loyalty. I am not loyal to Lady Sarum, but to the Empire. Also Lord Vision, I will say what you cannot bring yourself to say. I do sympathize with your inner conflict about this matter and hope God brings you peace and understanding. There is a possibility that Lady Sarum is an imposter, a heretic (depends on your point of view), a liar, and a con artist. It is also possible that she has strong-armed the Theology Council and the Heirs into this "nomination" with the power of her new super weapon. I for one, am still wondering where Chamberlain Karsoth is at, and what has happened to him? I am wary of Lady Sarum, and wary of the events that have led to this current spate of events. I apologize if my remarks on the Empress and the government offend you Lord Vision, but again, they are only my personal views. Take them as you will.
Agustus Caesar 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.06.24 02:41:00 - [29] Originally by: Victor Vision Lieutenant Caesar, if you were unjustly mistreated, let me step forward and apoligize to you for this. I know this is unlikely to heal wounds, but take it as a symbolic gesture from my part. While the gesture is appreciated no appology is needed, I had to step over many bodies to reconsile my past but, my current position is fueled more out of duty to my nation than anything else. Originally by: Victor Vision This was born out of a purely practical nature. Our ancestors were faced with the discovery of primitive races, and found the best way to civilize them was by enslaving them. I too, would call for a more diverse selection in current times. It fills my heart with joy and pride, to see civilized Matari, Ni-Kunni and other former slaves walk free. That's hardly justification for the Empire's current policy on non-Amarrians residing within it's borders. Originally by: Victor Vision Why yes, I see this comparison was unfortunate. I meant no offense, Lieutnant Caesar. On the point of having been born in the wrong womb... If an enslaved criminal or uncivilized person, or one who became slave by free will, gives birth to a child, this child remains property of the owner of the slave. This is mainly a legal issue. And a trivial one at that. If a crimian gives birth to a child the child should either be put up for adoption or put in a state-funded creche; not to be made to pay for crimes they didn't commit. Originally by: Victor Vision Yes, regarding the issue concerning Heir Aritcio. It was mainly meant as an example that we punish Amarrians who have done wrong. Not only our slaves have to follow rules, we ourselves have to follow rules as well, including the more prominent figures in our empire. Perhaps my origial point was too vauge, I have yet to see a slave master be punished for abusing their slaves; perhaps they're occasionally punished on periphral crimes, but I have yet to see one held to account for the treatment of their slaves. Originally by: Victor Vision Do not forget, many crimes in regard to slaves are likely to break other rules as well. Depending on the gravity of a forbidden action, treatment may always include sending the offender to judgement before God. Again I must say I have yet to see such a ruling be upheld. Originally by: Victor Vision An Amarrian - except the Emporer - who sees himself above all fellow man, commits a deadly sin, since he places himself on the same level as God or the Emperor. For this kind of attitude it is within reason to give that sinner the possibility to justify himself directly before God. From what I've seen Amarrian nobility rarely have to account for such attitudes except when they are killed in slave revolts or when their arrogance manages to cross over to the point where the Theology Council can no longer turn a blind eye. Originally by: Victor Vision I hope not. Progression in the form of cultural advancement is positive. I can not state my views on Lady Sarum publicly - and this is an open channel - but I must assume if she is chosen by God to become our Empress, that she brings all the qualities needed for continued improvement of our society.