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Veron Daerth
Karos Fleet Systems
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Posted - 2008.06.24 13:36:00 -
[31]
Indeed Pilot Bloodbird. You are correct in your mode of address and if I have failed to note and properly use your own, enlighten me and I shall endeavour to return the favor.
I find that the use of shock collars and vitoc to be self destructive and detrimental to the system. The only effective way to deal with the malcontents (and every society and culture has them) is from within the society or culture. The various slave colonies and settlements do the majority of the work policing themselves, and due to the effectiveness of the schooling system, and its utilization at a young age, crime is very low. There are crimes that do occur however. Slaves steal from each other, fight amongst themselves, commit adultery, any and all of the gamut of human failings they also have in their measure. That is why there are magistrates to oversee the legalities of the slaves' actions and priests to oversee their spiritual health.
Finding even-handed magistrates that would apply a code of law that didnt involve outright destruction of the slave (and therefore the loss of my total investment in that slave) for any and all infractions was difficult, to say the least. But it can be achieved. I have actually found it to be much easier to apply the Project to all aspects of my Family's operation. The majority of the overseers and officials that administrate my estates and facilities are descendants of those that served my father and grandfather. They are already "up to speed" on what I want to effect here and they are also already used to how I run things. Saves me time a trouble.
Good speaking to you all.
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Taradis
The Imperial Assassins
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Posted - 2008.06.25 08:25:00 -
[32]
"Taradis awakens from his slumber to find his Com Unit flashing"
Incomming message: accept: Yes/No
"Taradis clicks on yes and reads the feed"
Hmmm Wow a civilized conversation about this subject my my I am shocked to read what I am reading and wow no Amarr bashing that's a first. First of all let me say my condoences to the slave/slaves that have been abused by their masters. I as a Khanid Amarrian do not abuse "slaves" slave is such a maddening term and makes my teeth cringe at the thought of that very word. I do not use "slaves." The Matari I have on my small compund are basically and extension of my family. I treat them the way I want to be treated and I do not push my religous views on them whatsoever they are enlightened though and I treat them with respect, they work hard as I work hard, I council them in times of despair, I care for them as if they were my blood relatives. They have a roof over their head they sleep in the same building as I and my family do as I do not believe in "slave" quaters they are all equals in my household and I also give them money so they can go out and enjoy themselves amd have a peace of mind in these turbulent times. I have stated my opinion on this I bid everyone good day.
- Taradis
"Taradis shuts his com down and proceeds to make some Caf to get the day started"
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Veron Daerth
Karos Fleet Systems
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Posted - 2008.06.25 23:16:00 -
[33]
Hmm, Lord Taradis, I am not sure if I would have gone to the same extremes as you have apparently done.
I do not believe that the President of the Federation sleeps in the same place as or treats his staff like his family. They, like my slaves, are valuable and skilled people, that serve a purpose, and you (as their Leader, Ruler, CEO, Chief, Holder or what have you) have an obligation to them. Now, in another society, you (as said leader) are also not directly responsible for feeding, housing, clothing, and teaching your workers, but here in the Empire you are. (or should be) The slave does not have access to these basic staples of life like other citizens do, and in order to make them (the slaves) as productive and useful as possible, it is in your interests to provide good quality care in all its forms to them. This makes each slave something of an investment, and a wise investor cares for his investments very much, especially capital investments.
Its all about what benefits the Empire as a whole. And I feel that the project that my House is engaged in is for the best interests of the Empire.
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Taradis
The Imperial Assassins
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Posted - 2008.06.26 06:05:00 -
[34]
Lord Daerth I humbly respect your opinion but I believe in treating people equally and with respect "slave" or no "slave", I believe in treating "slaves" right and with dignity because without them where would we be as an empire? I have no love for the Matari aggressors in this recent conflict but my "slaves" have nothing to do with this and I will continue to treat them well and give them medical attention and enlightenment. On my compound their is a sort of peace and harmony which I enjoy greatly it keeps me tranquil and at peace with myself and I thank the Lord God everyday for that peace in my household. But make no mistake I will come down with an iron fist if that harmony is broken in my household. My "slaves" are happy and they work hard and that's all I could ask of them. I have raised them since they were young I found them abadoned as children many years ago on a trade run to the bleak lands, I found them in station and I took them in.It was a hard adjustment at first into the life of a Khanid Amarrian but they adjusted well they even pray with me in my chambers to the Lord God, granted when they do they are in a seperate section as I am the sole Holder of them. As I stated before I should have been more clear my apologies Lord Daerth but when I said that they sleep in the same house as I my wife and 2 children, I meant that they sleep in a differant section of my home not directly by my family because I do not believe in seperate quaters but I do keep a close eye on them and monitor all incoming and outgoing communications. Make no mistake I do pay attention to everything that goes on in my household.
Gallente politics mean nothing to me as they are corrupt and untrue they will never have a peaceful society because of their internal squabbling. The Amarr Empire as been around for generations because of how we are and we believe in a higher power unlike the uninlightened Gallente, I love my empire and would die protecting it as well as the great kingdom of Khanid.
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Thurisaz Prizma
Amarr
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
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Posted - 2008.06.30 20:05:00 -
[35]
Lord Daerth, I thank you.
I've curiously been following your talk and arguments about how you threat your "slaves". And first of all I must say that you're one of the few that ever has made me rethink; "I want to be like Veron Daerth when I grow old". That was exactly the words I tought about your speach.
Even though I serve the Kingdom, and you serve the Empire, I share about all of your toughts and wish to threat my people the same. At the moment my population is at a mere 16 persons, who're my closest friends and family. You have opened my eyes, and from this day forth; I will start giving them free education, pocket money and even let them choose their own lovers (among their own kin ofcourse).
Once again I thank you Lord Daerth, for opening up my mind. When I grow older, and when I've grown tired of the endless fighting in my warships, I will settle down and use my wealth to give my people the best they deserve.
I hope we'll meet in the future to discuss this matter further, I would gladly like to know how your cities are prospering within 20 or even 30years. Until that time, I bid you farewell.
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Veron Daerth
Amarr
Karos Fleet Systems
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Posted - 2008.07.01 01:01:00 -
[36]
Lady Prizma, I thank you for your kind words. Know that the results my House has achieved are the result of a long long work of labor. My Great Grandfather began this work with his elevation of certain of his slaves to the status of "retainer", and continued with his son and his grandson (my Father). It is literally the labor of a lifetime, and will consume my own and that of my children and theirs, and their grandchildren and so forth.
As you know, having read some of my thoughts, I believe that the state of "slavery" as a societal status within the Empire is a flaw in it (the Empire), and has to be addressed to see us progress as a society and in the eyes of God. Violence and brute force has had its chance these decades and more, and has failed. Now it is up to us, the quiet ones, the humble ones, the commoners or minor Holders, to work a Great Work for the Empire and God. We must look to the future, not our children's or theirs, but our own great grandchildren's futures and lay the foundations for it. It can be a vibrant, productive, wholesome place, for both Amarrian or former slave. Or it can be a stagnant, caste bound corpse that totters along on its last legs. The choice is up to us, here, now, today. The path will be long, hard and full of setbacks and failures, and is uncertain in its success. We, those that set our Empire's feet upon that path will never know of its success or failure. We will never reap the rewards of that choice in our mortal lifetimes. But our descendants will. Our great grandchildren and their children and so forth will. I do not do what I do for fame or glory. I do not do it because my God told me to. I do it because it has to be done. If God finds this to be good of me, that He approves of me, so much the better. If those that rule the Empire revile me and brand me "heretic" or "traitor" because I revile their greed and lusts, so be it. I have made my choices, and it is done. Here I stand, I can do no other.
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BloodBird
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.01 01:45:00 -
[37]
*Upon opening the transmission, BloodBird smiles, the smile remains as he speaks.*
Why hello again Thurisaz, how have you fared since last we spoke?
I've not seen you in weeks, and I regret I could not contact you, I've had some issues to deal with planetside. But now that I see you here, on the summit, I though I'd take a moment to hear how you've been doing.
So old friend, how have you been doing? I assume you found your new position with the Kingdom to your liking, eh?
There are a few things I'd love to talk with you about, but we are on an open summit, so I'll just await your reply, if any, and not derail this anymore than I have. We are after all, discussing more important matters in here.
Until I see you again or hear from you in here, Thurisaz.
*Nods and closes the transmission*
(OOC note - if anyone can clarify me on a matter I'd be grateful - Is the summit regarded as a word-post forum available to all capsuleers in a Roleplaying sense, or is it a series of available transmissions, with actual camera feeds and such? I'm wondering, because until now I've seen people treat it as both. It would be a bit dumb of me to treat it as a text-only forum in aRP'ing sense or vice versa if it's infact the other way around... thanks in advance) |
Thurisaz Prizma
Amarr
Khanid Provincial Vanguard
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Posted - 2008.07.01 16:54:00 -
[38]
[Incomming transmission...]
[...]
[Connection link established]
Lord Daerth.
I'm honored by your reply, and like always you speak words of great wisdom. I've read and listened to all your previous speachs about Slavery VS Employment, so I'm very well aware that what you've said takes generations, and generations of hard work. However this won't change my mind at all.
I will be the first in my family-line to start with this reform, and I'm sure some will look into my eyes with fury, disgust and hatred. However, I'm also certain some individuals will look up to my ideals with great interest and respect, like I've looked up to yours.
Like your great grandfather, I will enter unknown territory. I've not heard of anyone speaking and treating slaves like you do within the Kingdom, and it's with great honor I will begin this reform. This is quite a few years off I'm afraid, since I don't have near the wealth required to start this "project". One could say our family isn't exactly the wealthiest... But through hard work and with a superb iron will this will happen. I promise you all that.
Moving on.
Commenting what you've said this very day, I can't do more than agree. Hate breeds violence, and violence breeds death. This is a never ending cycle of misery, and we should all work together stopping it. There comes nothing good of death and pain, we all know that. And we all should work actively stopping it.
And I will start by stating that the 16 individual minmatar working for me (others would call slaves), are now to be adressed as employees of the Prizma family. A small step, but I really do hope this will bring us all a bit closer to an age of peace and prosperity. Where we all can live in harmony, living side by side with eachother on the beautiful planets created by God. That is my dream.
Now I hope my daughter, which is yet to be born, follows my example. Like you decided to continue following your fathers vision, Lord Daerth.
Until we speak again.
[End of transmission]
...
[Opening up a comm. link with capsuleer BloodBird]
[Comm. Link established]
[Incomming transmission]
Greetings BloodBird.
It's been a long time since we last spoke, and I really do hope we can exchange words in the near future.
To answer one of your questions, yes, I really do.
But as you've said yourself, this is an open summit, and I wouldn't like holding a public chat about what you and me have to say eachother. Conctact me in privacy, please.
Take care.
[End of transmission]
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Tecam Hund
The Buggers
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Posted - 2008.07.03 04:09:00 -
[39]
Ha! What's to discuss? It is irrelevant what benefits slavery might have over low wage employment. You asked us to look at slavery with open mind. Fair enough. You may enslave as many native subjects or Amarr Empire as you like and I wouldn't care.
But there was an event in history that you might have forgotten, when your ships landed on our planets and abducted over a million of minmatar tribesmen, followed by centuries of oppression. I don't believe that even freeing all slaves of minmatar bloodlines will protect you from the gathering storm.
It is payback time. You may not be monsters, but you created some. I am looking forward to observing mushroom clouds above your cities from orbit.
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Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.07.03 05:43:00 -
[40]
And it is that very line of thought, Pilot Hund, that will result in the destruction of both our societies if left to run its course. Yes, I am well aware of the event of which you speak. You speak of the Great Reclaiming, first visited upon you several centuries ago. In that time and the time since, many millions and millions of Matari have been abducted and sold and bartered and abused and killed for no other reason than that they were easy to take. They were seen as weak, and they were seen as primitive and savages and beasts. They were simply there.
We could debate and dissect the reasons and the motivations and the harm done on both sides. We could point fingers and howl about justice and scream for vengeance. We could drone on about salvation and the proper place of barbarians in God society. We could glass entire worlds, and scour entire systems free of life. How does that sound? You do know that once that madness begins on one side, it will spread to all the rest, right? Once the slaughter of the populations of entire planets starts, it will spread to all the four Empires, you do realize that right?
I have a suggestion for you, every time you imagine or anticipate seeing the mushroom clouds above an Amarrian city, deliberately switch those people in your thoughts to some Matari, on a Matari planet, in a Matari city. Now how does that make you feel? What you just felt (if you did that little exercise) is what every Amarrian feels about his or her loved ones below, trapped on worlds that cannot evade, or move, or go anywhere but where they are. Do you think that we do not feel because of who and what we are?
Yes, there was wrong done, and if you had read all that I advocate and stand for, you would understand that some of us are doing all that can be done to address it. Yes, we have done wrong by the Matari people, and they have an understandable and justified grievance because of it. But they must also accept that when Amarr finally realizes that that wrong has been done, and does what it can to rectify the situation, it is OVER.
I cannot change the past, Pilot, and unless you have a special temporal vortex engine somewhere, neither can you. But together, we CAN change the future, and that what this is all about. I seek to make a better future for all the peoples of Amarr, slave, commoner, Holder and Noble. If you cannot help be part of the solution, you are part of the problem. And before you say it, no, killing us all is not "helping" anything. As I have noted before and elsewhere, when you embark on a path to Genocide (and that what you just described) your neighbors soon follow, for what choice have they.
Yes, even after there is equality in the Empire for the slaves (they are granted citizenship and manumitted) there will be hard feeling on both sides. But with work, this will subside.. after a few generations or so. Time does change things, and that too, is what must be looked at. All this will take time, generation upon generation. No other solution is capable of effecting change on the scale needed to have any beneficial result for the slaves. Yes, there will be suffering today, and even more tomorrow, but with time and effort, we can shatter the social bonds that have made justice impossible. Then the suffering can be abated. It is a hard price, and in many ways a cruel one, but it is the only one that is sure to work and will eventually have the most benefit.
God go with you, Pilots.
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Zulfiqaar
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Posted - 2008.07.06 17:47:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Zulfiqaar on 06/07/2008 17:49:54
I lost clones 001 to 453 during testing for the Amarrian Military.
My 'Master' volunteered me for the program when i was only four years old.
i was mutilated with chemicals and nanobots as the Empire searched for a new VITOC.
I wasnt even taught how to speak until i was past my 70th clone, aged 9.
i didnt start to rebel until clone 126, aged 13.
i lost clones 130 through 216 to the beatings that ensued, whenever i refused to co-operate.
the whippings used to leave marks down to my ribcage.
by clone 220ish, i had given up.
i knew nothing but misery.
i was resigned.
and then i was rescued.
i have lived a free life ever since.
i can read and write (with the help of a spellchecker!)
i have a family.
looking back on this 'life', all i have to say on the subject is this:
There is only one Master, and he does not share power with anyone.
All the hypocrites claiming they emulate god and thus derive their power over lesser lifeforms, are guilty of blashphemy, by assuming a role reserved for God.
we were made as equals, to share all these things as brothers and sisters.
any that choose to define themselves as being seperate, either above or below, are lost.
Furthermore, let it be known, that freedom is a prison.
Once free, one is tested with the greatest burden of them all.
The emancipation of all those less fortunate than yourself.
BUT!
It is a prison i walked into of my own volition, knowing that i would never be able to think only of my own concerns ever again.
I am my brothers and sisters.
The boundaries of the flesh are for the materialists that claim 'enlightenment' through a religion that practices only persecution.
may i take this opportunity to thank Mr Thrace.
may i take this opportunity to thank the members of Ushra Khan.
were it not for them , i would still be in solitary confinement.
(oh, and i thank my wife for helping me to write this letter!)
terrorists?
insurgents?
infidels?
call them what u want.
they are good people.
and i pray for them.
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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.06 18:09:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Stitcher on 06/07/2008 18:16:03
Edited by: Stitcher on 06/07/2008 18:09:30
Great spirits of the void...
I feel very strongly inclined to disbelieve every last word of your first paragraph. The only thing stopping me is that I have no good reason to doubt your word. Still, it sounds massively far-fetched.
Putting aside my doubts for a second, and ignoring the obvious commentary on "monstrosity" "inhuman treatment" and "Barbarism" for a second, I'm stunned that anybody would consider undertaking a research program that impossibly wasteful and expensive. Even maintaining one test subject through that many cloning procedures must have cost... millions. Hundreds of millions, per subject. Assuming multiple test groups and a control group, that's tens of billions of ISK, bare minimum, to achieve test results that could have been produced with equal accuracy by measuring the chemical responses of "blank" clones, or even just cloned human flesh. Or lab rats, even! All for a tiny, tiny fraction of the cost.
Why anyone would put a living mind through all of that, needlessly and at great expense is beyond me. There's no possible way that the person responsible for that "experiment" was sane by anybody's standards.
The other thing that strikes me is that it's a miracle that you're even a functional human being. I would have thought any human mind would go permanently catatonic under that sort of abuse.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
BloodBird
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.06 19:20:00 -
[43]
 Originally by: Stitcher
I feel very strongly inclined to disbelieve every last word of your first paragraph. The only thing stopping me from outright accusing you of making the whole thing up is that I have no good reason to doubt your word.
You don't? Really?
Truly, I do. Hell, you even give good explenation to the utter unlikelyness of these "facts" below this very statement.
Keep a few things in mind.
He claims to not even learn how to speak until age 9, yet is able to recount the number of clones wasted on him, even describe the manner of how he lost them. I find it unlikely a person unable to even speak knows how to count. Let alone understand how he may die but yet live again in a new clone-body. A 4 year old simply would not understand how this could possibly happend, let alone keep track of the number.
Secondly, he claims to be rescued by UNITY, however he offers no explenation to how this came to pass. Merely that it was done.
Even IF he was their rather expensive lab-rat, he would have been held in a secured and secret facility able to execute these tests for the number of years he claims. How did UNITY find this place? Why is the escape/rescue not public knowledge?
Surely this would, if true; be very, very powerful propaganda material for UNITY to use against their foes yet I have never heard of any such tests until some random guy shows up and makes these claims. A man who should be in no state of mind to even think clearly.
On another factor, if he was held there from the age of 4, he was likely born a slave. If none bothered to teach him to speak it's unlikely he knew anythig else either.
Thus, the lab and the treatment would be all he ever knew. Why try and resist to the degree where they would whip him to the bone, and have to re-clone him, a rather costly prosess?
More likely, if this was fact, he would be either insane as a result of his treatment, or develop a tendency to view his captor's wishes as something to aspire to resolve, due to cooperation likely being a reduction in, or abcense of, punishment. I'm not sure what it was called, but it's simmilar to a hostage sympatizig with his/her captor, just for diffrent reasons.
Also, a child of that age will naturally seek a father/mother figure, regardless of sircumstance, but especially so if treated in such a way. I find it likely that he would view his captor(s) as family, or as someone to relate to, simply a way for the mind to try to avoid total mental collapse.
I could go on, and on, and on... but suffice to say, I think his entire statement is a rather weakly constructed lie. And a poor attempt to derail a rather civil discussion on the matter of Slavery. A CIVIL discussion on the topic. How many of those are there, really?
Sig source |
Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.06 19:31:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Stitcher on 06/07/2008 19:32:44
Originally by: BloodBird
Edited by: BloodBird on 06/07/2008 19:28:04
Originally by: Stitcher
I feel very strongly inclined to disbelieve every last word of your first paragraph. The only thing stopping me from outright accusing you of making the whole thing up is that I have no good reason to doubt your word.
You don't? Really?
Yeah, I'm not entirely sure why I wrote that, either... Probably out of some lingering need to be polite to people.
-
Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.07.06 21:54:00 -
[45]
That, Pilot Zulfiqaar, was one of the most horrendous stories I have ever heard. It is also so far beyond the boundaries of plausibility that it defies description. Yet we can take some parts of this tale and use it to illuminate some things about Amarrian society and how I and others seek to change it.
Abuse. What is abuse? I consider it to be an act that is detrimental to the physical and mental well being of something. You can abuse tools and ships and food and people. You can abuse them in many ways. Yet my father gave me a good thrashing when I misbehaved when I was young (and the one and only time I sought to strike my mother in a midst of a tantrum) and I do not consider that to be abuse. Criminal justice systems do things that are detrimental to the well being of criminals, and we do not consider that to be abuse. However, in all these cases, the person being abused has presumably done something to deserve it. Not so for the slave. Often, slaves are abused for the pleasure of their Masters or Mistresses. They are abused as a show of force or to keep other slaves in line. They are abused by the system itself, each and every day.
Yet, what can be done, we ask? We could rush in and, with guns blazing, swoop down upon those vile men that abuse those in their care. We could blast and hammer them to dust, leaving only rubble and desolation in our wakes. And what then would happen to the rest of the evil, corrupted people that would see this? They would know fear. And when we fear things, things we cannot stand against, or face for ourselves, we lash out at those around us, those that we can dominate and those that cannot defy us. The ones that suffer are the slaves in the end. We, in our mighty warships, could save a but a relative handful, but three or four times the number we save will die for our efforts. Is this just? Is this fair?
To change the system of callous disregard for the value of life, to make it known to the people of Amarr that God made us all, and that in the end, we are all His children, to get the Amarrians to see that this system of enslavement undermines the very purpose of God's command to enlighten the peoples of the cluster, we must do it from within. Change on a scale I envision will not be easy or quick. It will take time, and effort, and lives. In the time it takes to accomplish, many will suffer, and more will die needlessly. It is not a perfect or wonderful solution, but it is one that will work, and is, in the end, the best solution to the issue of Amarr and its corruption.
God grant you peace, Pilots.
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Scagga Laebetrovo
Ammatar Free Corps
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Posted - 2008.07.06 23:26:00 -
[46]
The tribal invasion of the Empire has nothing to do with slavery.
San Matari Official forums |
Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.06 23:55:00 -
[47]
Oh? Wow! They really had me fooled... And here was me thinking that the tribal invasion force's liberation of millions of slaves was the whole point of their incursion into Amarr space.
What a fool I've been. Of course, it'd really help me to understand their motives far better if you were to, you know, actually support that claim. Say, with hard evidence or a strong logical argument?
In the meantime, let's keep this discussion on-topic and civil, please.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Flow Gae
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Posted - 2008.07.07 00:28:00 -
[48]
for the record:
i have been working with victims of war for many years now.
i first came across Mr Zulfiqaar nearly 20 years ago, and at the time he was unable to communicate. He was deposited at our medical center in a fresh clone, but he was in such a deep state of psychosis, that it was several year later before we were finally able to have any sort of dialogue.
Fifteen years of regressive hypnotherapy, integration workshops and the latest research in anti psychotic drugs were required before he was deemed fit to be released from hospital as an outpatient, nearly 2 years ago.
Since then, he has attended military academy, of his own choice, and has finally managed, to master his convulsive fits, using a combination of drugs and a special cortical implant.
He was granted flight status with the TLF last month, and this is the fruition of many many years work.
Its a miracle he was able to take part in this debate at all, let alone articulate himself so well.
Futhermore:
It would appear that at a certain point, it became clear that installing a clone facility and keeping a stock of ultra low grade clones would be more cost effective (over as little as five years!), than breeding/capturing and importing slaves en mass.
This practice was not widespread, and no, there is no mention of any of these facilities in the mainstream news, but the victims brought to us are genuine. How many of their memories are intact, we cannot say, but certain themes seem common across a wide range of subjects. We have worked with nearly 80 patients with similar symptoms, of which only 24 have been successfully re-integrated.
May i also point out, that in my years as a therapist, i have also treated Amarrian victims of Minmitar interrogation techniques. Needless to say, many were treated so brutally, that they may never recover. These were people who had lives to lose in the first place, who were then reduced to empty shells. Quite possibly a more heinous crime than the one committed against Mr Zulfiqaar...
in the end, people are people.
some of us are responsible for others, be that a slaver looking after his wares, or an employer and staff.
how we treat them is independant of the social structures we live with, a kind slaver is better than a cruel employer.
However, the simple fact is that people have a right to choose for themselves.
It is for this reason that i believe slavery is an abomination against nature.
And it is for this reason that i am now working exclusively on the Minmitar side of the border.
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Zulfiqaar
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Posted - 2008.07.07 01:05:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Stitcher
Edited by: Stitcher on 06/07/2008 19:02:40
((OOC: Sorry for the OOC, but this is MASSIVELY over-the-top, mate. A little bit of abuse, fine. Maybe being killed and cloned once or twice if you REALLY want to stretch it (after all, anyone inclined to kill their slaves isn't then likely to shell out the thousands of ISK to have them reanimated when they could just buy a few hundred new ones for the same cost). Hundreds of times? It's too far-fetched, and the first foundation of a good character is that their background has to be believable. Yours is several dozen parsecs past the believability event horizon and still accelerating.))
(OOC: naaaaah, its just the way he remembers it, see? Well, chooses to remember it anyways... having someone to blame makes his new life more intelligible for him, so obviously he demonises them beyond reality somewhat. But that doesnt mean that there's no truth to the story, just that its been exaggerated...)
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Garion Avarr
Amarr
Zero Zero Traders
YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.07.07 01:58:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Stitcher
Yeah, I'm not entirely sure why I wrote that, either... Probably out of some lingering need to be polite to people.
Well, nothing wrong with that.
A very interesting debate . . . so rarely does one find a civilized discussion of this topic. If we are to have peace -- and despite the current state, I still hope for that -- we do need to understand these issues. This debate gives me hope for that; I shall join in later.
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BloodBird
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.07 13:27:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Zulfiqaar
(OOC: ive edited the post  )
(OOC: I'm sorry for the amount of OOC I've contributed lately,but there have been things I wished to adress and it would be impossible to do so IC.
Better Zulfiqaar, but still a tad over the top. Why not try and aproach the problem from another angle? Surely there are a number of less humane Amarr who, for diffrent reasons, break even established Amarr imperial law or do as they please to people they consider inferior. (Anyone else I'd imagine.) There is no reason none of those might be inclined to have some lab somewhere and reseach/develop whatever, with the use of subjects. Heck, there is likely those that do that just for kicks, with no hard reason.
Claiming to be cloned over and over is just... highly unlikely in any case, simply because even the lowest of clones are expensive and the process complicated. Cloning is available to capsuleers despite costs due to our elite status in society.
To treat other humans in such a way one would have to be extremely inhumane, mentaly unbalanced and simply in complete lack of any kind of empathy.
Now there are those that claim to be escaped slaves of what can be viewed as satan himself, it happends.
But let's face it - if he/she/they were indeed that cruel, the likelyhood they would waste something as expencive as a single clone, even muliple ones on what they truly view as lower than dirt is next to nothing.
Simply put: Cloning, the process, the materials needed, the lab and personell needed, the probability of success, is still, no matter how you view it, highly expencive. WHY waste it on something you value so little?
Secondly, I wonder who Flow Gae is. A friend of yours? An alt? Or some person that wished to try and back your story up? Commendable attempt, but the story is still hard to grasp.)
Lord Daerth, if I may ask a question: You claim to live in the Federation at the time, or at least to be traveling it at present. I'll assume your holds are located in the Empire at the time, so...
Will visiting these holds not become hard for you, if your being investigated for being "soft" on your slaves, as you say?
Where are these holds of yours really? I'd very much like to go see them one day, if this was even possible. I'm wondering, as to how their daily lives could be, and just what they would say to a Federation vessel landing and visiting their humble homes.
To be honest I'd very much like to visit these people, one day perhaps, when I'm not fired upon on sight in the Empire.
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Zulfiqaar
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Posted - 2008.07.07 14:13:00 -
[52]
(OOC: okay, im impressed.
ive been sent links to novellas and stories, have had stuff explained to me instead of being flamed, unbelievable :) eVe ftw it would seem. taking story down, Flow Gae is a friend, were trying RP out coz it sucked in other games weve played but eVe seems different... will rethink backstory after ive read what has already been written :))
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Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.07.07 14:14:00 -
[53]
Pilot Bloodbird, I do currently live in the Federation and do receive reports form my overseers and caretakers and managers as to the conditions and events occurring on my Family's Estates. I do have to trust them, and since several of them are manumitted slaves of mine, I trust them the more. Things were not once so difficult.
I can still come and go in the Empire, for now. The "investigation" isnt supposed to do anything at this point other than to "encourage" me to keep quiet, or so I have been informed by several who are in a position to know. Should I continue to make my views known in public and in other forums where the established authority can monitor me, well then, yes there could be some difficulty for me to return to the Empire. Since it would be most difficult for me to accomplish my goals from a prison or "reeducation" facility, I am "lying low" as you would call it, I believe. Sort of a case of "out of sight, out of mind" for the Inquisition. I am not breaking any laws (I checked) so they cant do anything too overt, not until they can get more circumstantial evidence of my "heresy" to bring to a tribunal. What happens then is dependent of if they can catch me or not.
As to having you visit my estates, well, there are many. As you know, I was descended from Liberal Holders, and continue to try to better Amarr society as best I can. Even the lowliest of Holders has some capital to his name, and my parents and other ancestors were not spendthrift with the House coffers, so I am left with a goodly amount of funds to maintain my Holdings. You and anyone else are welcome to visit them should you so wish. Whether or not planetary control is going to let a shuttle registered to a non-Amarrian citizen land on one of the Empires planets is another question completely. Until then, Pilots, you can still orbit the planet and use imaging tech to scan my facilities and estates and see for yourselves.
May God guide you in times of despair and hardship.
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Garion Avarr
Amarr
Zero Zero Traders
YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.07.08 02:38:00 -
[54]
I said I would respond in some detail here, now I shall do so. First, when talking about slavery in the Empire, on must first understand that laws and practices vary from region to region, and that the conditions of slavery are very diverse. There are different types of slavery, and different masters will treat slaves in different ways. To paint all slavery in Amarr as being like any one particular thing is folly.
Now then, the economic considerations. In my opinion, it is currently economically harmful to use slave labor. Note that I do not say slavery itself, but the use of slaves as forced labor. The costs of feeding, housing, and keeping slaves healthy is not much less than paying normal workers for unskilled labor, indeed, it can sometimes be more than what it would cost to hire workers -- one needs to spend more on security if one is using slaves than if one is using paid labor. And because it is so much cheaper to hire new workers than buy new slaves -- since it is illegal to obtain slaves from the Republic, the price of slaves has been increasing steeply -- a lot of care must be taken to ensure the health of the slaves. They are too valuable to mistreat anymore, which means that more must be spent on ways to control them without causing undue harm, instead of simply beating those that get out of line. Add to this the loss of sales from Gallente and Minmatar that do not wish to buy products made by slave labor, and using slaves as a labor source begins to look unattractive.
Better than either slaves or workers, however, would be increased use of automation. Though the initial costs can be large, machines usually cost much less to run than slaves -- but reliance on slaves has tended to hold the Empire back from making as much use of mechanization as we might.
In more skilled positions, slaves may tend to cost less to house and feed than paid laborers, but skilled workers must be kept somewhat happy for them to be effective, which means one cannot mistreat them or use 'traditional' methods of ensuring obedience. Non-slave overseers can often be needed, which raises costs. The Vitoc method is effective, but since much about it is secret, it is difficult to say how much it costs financially, once one factors in development costs. Again, if they are used to produce goods or services that are marketed, the use of slaves does limit the market.
In sum: the use of slave labor does not in the current day provide a great economic advantage to the Empire, and likely is an economic hindrance, especially in that it helps discourage economic development and adaptation of more modern production practices. It limits markets for our goods, and is also a political liability, making those that might otherwise be friendly -- and perhaps receptive to learning of our religious teachings -- hostile to us.
Note that while I strongly argue that slave labor is harmful to the future of the Empire, I am in no way suggesting its immediate abolishment, nor am I categorically saying that slavery is bad. More on that later.
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BloodBird
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.08 03:59:00 -
[55]
I'm not really to happy to hear of your situation Lord Daerth. But, for what it's worth, feel free to stay in the federation as long as you wish. I'm sure you have realized by now that while some might be unhappy with you, your people, your empire or even the fact you live, most would welcome you here. At least, until you declared support to any faction we happened to be at war or poor standing too. Then you might want to leave very soon.
As for your estates, I was aware there was more than one. Not all are on the same planet or moon even, you have informed as such elsewhere. Nevertheless, simply observing your people's daily lives could be very interesting, one day when this war is over. I will look forward to that day, when my Thorax can land safely and I can exit without risking a bullet to the head.
(OOC: Zulfiqaar: Your welcome. I'm glad you seem willing to learn and are having fun in EVE. This can be a great place to spend one's time if you make it one. PS: I believe the proper refference would be "EVE" "EvE" or "EVE-Online", not eVe  Take care now, you and your friend, and have fun. Remember, if you need help, asking is an easy way to get it.)
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Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.07.08 05:18:00 -
[56]
Pilot Bloodbird, you are correct that there are several major facilities located planetside that I operate and some scattered Holdings in various stations and moon colonies. Overall, however, my Holdings are rather small compared to most of the Nobility. What makes up for that is that they are very productive and cost-effective.
The use of advanced Gallentean and Caldari automation systems has resulted in a highly streamlined production system, of everything from foodstuffs and livestock to clothings and cloth and heavy metal fabrication. Most of my production facilities support and sell to planetary contractors and such, though some of it does get transported off-planet eventually.
I have found the Federation to be... a contradiction in terms. I would like to see more propriety and less obsession with the superficial. I would like to see some of the women wear a bit more clothing (the sales girl that works the promenade outside my ships docking station in Aunia told me she wears that transparent.. thing, its not a dress really, because its "in style this month") and to be a bit less fascinated with sensationalism in general. that said, I would also like to take a bit of your open mindedness and tolerance for strange things and somehow put it into Amarrian culture. I would bring some of your passion for "doing the right thing" and still be somewhat objective, take that and couple it to our religion and maybe make something sensible out of it.
I dont know. Maybe I want too much for Amarr. I dont know. At any rate Pilot Bloodbird, you are welcome to tour some of my planetary estates when you wish. You can document them if you want to, and feel free to disseminate that information to your fellows.
On an unrelated note, I was not aware that a full sized starship could actually make atmospheric entry and survive. I always used a shuttle. Ironic, that.
<Veron Daerth nods respectfully>
God bless and guide you, Pilot.
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Drasden
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Posted - 2008.07.09 00:24:00 -
[57]
If an employee wants to quit, he/she can.
If a slave wishes to leave, he/she can't.
This lack of free choice, which is what fuels capitalism and thus a strong economy, is why Employment is better for the overall health of an Empire than Slavery.
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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.09 00:48:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Drasden
If an employee wants to quit, he/she can.
If a slave wishes to leave, he/she can't.
Depending on the employer, the culture and the employee though, quitting might mean never being able to find work again. It might mean poverty and starvation. In those situations, the ability to quit is irrelevant - if quitting would land you in poverty from which you'd never recover, then you're effectively a slave, even if nobody calls you that.
Personally, I'm strongly anti-slavery and pro-employment, but that's because I come from a society which provides safety nets for even the most destitute failures our society produces. Given the choice between going broke as a free man on a Gallente street somewhere, or being taken in as a slave by a benevolent Holder such as Mister Daerth, then I'd opt for the latter every time.
Then again, if it was a choice between going broke as a free man on a Gallente street somewhere, or being taken in as a slave by the average-to-worse end of the Holder spectrum, I'd definitely opt for the former.
Fact is, if only they could be trusted to treat their slaves with kindness and respect, then I imagine that the Amarr would find themselves receiving a number of volunteer slaves - down-and-outs willing to sell their freedom for a warm bed and hot meal every night. That's not to suggest that there are hundreds of thousands of Minmatar out there who'd crawl right back onto the plantation if the threat of the whip wasn't scaring them off - I don't think that for a second - But I reckon there's a way for the Amarr to turn slavery into an economically viable "career" that people would sign up for... all for the expenditure of nothing more expensive than free education, room and board, and reasonable work hours.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.07.09 02:41:00 -
[59]
Hmm...Pilot Stitcher, what you describe could be codified in a contractual agreement, perhaps some sort of indenturing system?
Actually... Construction of viable and somewhat comfortable quarters isnt that difficult or expensive, not with the drone tech and automation available even to the Empire. Employment at a stipulated wage, with guaranteed quarters and a basic education (chosen from a list of needed positions and the requisite skills to fill them) provided by the "employer". The "employee" pays back a portion of that wage to cover rental of housing space and to offset the training, but payment of training costs are deferred until such time as the "employee" actually graduates. That way, if he stops / fails the learning, he has to pay for what he has used (the educational resources) and is still accountable for the rental of his living space. Clothing and food is covered by the remainder of his wage... <Veron Daerths voice trails off. He is obviously thinking about the possible benefits and shortcomings of this proposal.>
Hmm...it will need some work, and I will run this idea by one of my Gallente friends. He has several economics and business degrees and can advise me more closely about this.
I would like to think that there are more of those out there that see things as I do, but the sad truth is, that most do not. I hope to change that though.
May Light of God always shine upon you, even in the most perilous of storms.
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Garion Avarr
Amarr
Zero Zero Traders
YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.07.09 07:06:00 -
[60]
There are, contrary to the picture some Minmatar paint, a number of different forms of slavery in the Empire. While it is the forced labor camps and large plantations that draw much of the attention, these account for a small minority of slave owners (though not of slaves, but of slave owners. It is hard to say if this is a majority of slaves or not, recording laws vary by region. Very likely it is a majority of Matari slaves). The 'average' slaveowner probably owns only one or two slaves, and is not extremely well off himself. These slaves would be engaged in mundane domestic tasks such as cooking and cleaning. Treatment would probably vary, but their condition is unlikely to be particularly bad.
As for slaves that voluntarily become slaves, they do exist, at least in some parts of the Empire. My personal physician is one -- he was once a poor commoner, but he entered himself into my parent's service as a special class of slave. In return for a lifetime of service, we are obliged to give him the education to become a doctor, provide him all the accommodations and privileges due to a favored slave in a noble house, as well as provide for his wife (who would remain a free person) and provide education and sponsorship for his children, who are free people of greater status than his was before he entered into our service.
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