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Sallera Zephyr
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.07.08 17:31:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Kaede Yuunai
Apparently, you are lost. Insanity seems to be common ammong the infomorph community. Such a shame, I wonder...
*Voice crawls to a wisper*
Will I ever become like you? I sure hope not.
Well, you get the milder cases of capsuleer dementia, and then you get... *gestures vaguely*... that. But it is common, yes. If your sense of self is strong enough, though... well, I would suppose that if you put enough effort into remaining 'human', you could probably manage a fair likeness. There are many who show no signs at all.
That said, I'm hardly an expert. You may wish to speak with Aria Jenneth on the subject.
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Kaede Yuunai
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.07.08 17:50:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Kaede Yuunai on 08/07/2008 17:53:41
<Sallera Zephyr's latest message is re-played over the transmission>
Originally by: Sallera Zephyr
Originally by: Kaede Yuunai
Apparently, you are lost. Insanity seems to be common ammong the infomorph community. Such a shame, I wonder...
*Voice crawls to a wisper*
Will I ever become like you? I sure hope not.
Well, you get the milder cases of capsuleer dementia, and then you get... *gestures vaguely*... that. But it is common, yes. If your sense of self is strong enough, though... well, I would suppose that if you put enough effort into remaining 'human', you could probably manage a fair likeness. There are many who show no signs at all.
That said, I'm hardly an expert. You may wish to speak with Aria Jenneth on the subject.
<Audio transmission starts, Kaede's voice is a tad shaky and unsteady at first but improves after a bit>
So.. there, there is...
*curses under her breath and breaths deeply*
I'm sorry, I'm a little shaken here... I feared for my mental health for a while. So there are varying degrees, and some who remain... well, normal? I guess I'll see if I might have a word with this Aria Jenneth then, later.
*The auditory of AsheRevan's latest transmission is played over the feed*
Originally by: AsheRaven
One day, you will come to understand better than you realise
*A moment of silence passes before a reply is heard*
No, I won't. I won't be like you. I did not climb to the status as capsuleer despite my defect, and that... that life... just to fall into the pits of insanity like you. I will not be some... flesh eating canibalistic mad-man.
<The feed is cut>
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AsheRaven
Minmatar
The Stormcrow Milita
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Posted - 2008.07.08 18:00:00 -
[63]
Surely you remember our ancient ways. Eating the flesh of our enemeies was considered a great hnour to both victor and Vanquished alike. It is only those who have taken great value in the flesh rather than the spirit that have decreed such activity... vile.
The Paratawa for example are reknowned for eating the flesh of their enemies. The Clan Raven in their war withe Shakor only turned from such "vile tatstes" as you say when the Republic came about, and since when was it tribal policy to dicate the inner structure or beliefs of a clan?
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BloodBird
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.08 18:07:00 -
[64]
Originally by: AsheRaven
...since when was it tribal policy to dicate the inner structure or beliefs of a clan?
O, I don't know, since it became a moraly objective, despicable practice? Unless the Republic or the Tribal leaders or whoever wanted to be seen as a band of raving, barbaric, primitives; practices like those you mentiond had to be abolished. At the very least, that is what I have been told.
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AsheRaven
Minmatar
The Stormcrow Milita
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Posted - 2008.07.08 18:09:00 -
[65]
Originally by: BloodBird
Originally by: AsheRaven
...since when was it tribal policy to dicate the inner structure or beliefs of a clan?
O, I don't know, since it became a moraly objective, despicable practice? Unless the Republic or the Tribal leaders or whoever wanted to be seen as a band of raving, barbaric, primitives; practices like those you mentiond had to be abolished. At the very least, that is what I have been told.
By who's standards? This is hardly a practice without spiritual meaning or background. It is only those who value their flesh more than their spirit who deem it barbaric and primitive. We both see enliightenment in different ways, who are you to judge?
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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.08 18:17:00 -
[66]
Originally by: AsheRaven
We both see enliightenment in different ways, who are you to judge?
Who indeed? Morality isn't a universal truth, but flexible from person to person and culture to culture.
Still, if your own tribes are denouncing the practice as "barbaric", then it's perhaps time to start listening to them. They at least are in a better-qualified position to judge.
If everyone else is driving towards you, pilot, then maybe you're on the wrong side of the road.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
AsheRaven
Minmatar
The Stormcrow Milita
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Posted - 2008.07.08 18:24:00 -
[67]
Miludar lead the Republic to an age of apatahy and qand concession. Whilst the Cildren of Matar cried out for freedom, she denounced such calls at every turn, pallying and appeasing the emperor at the time. Had this war started 3 years ago much of the bloodshed being bayed for now might have been appeased. Even Crorin Raven himself, his ancient bones be damned, called for a permanant reminder to the cost of freedom. A symbol now used by the Ushra'Khan itself. The bloodied hand.
Change is not what is needed, evolution and strength is the only way forward, and to turn our backs on whhat made us what we are today, sturdy, strong, proud and resolute, would only lead us to one path. That is the path the amarr woulld have us follow. Service to them
It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees, and in the case of the Amarr there is only one way to do that... slaughter
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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.08 18:37:00 -
[68]
Originally by: AsheRaven
Change is not what is needed, evolution and strength is the only way forward
That's a complete contradiction. "Evolution" means "change". The two terms are damn near synonymous.
Evolution is not a rapid process, either. It takes many generations. You can't make a horse evolve by beating it to death, so why are you trying to do that with the Amarr? You need several carefully-nurtured generations before evolution can work... Generations that will never arise if you club your breed into an early grave in your impatience.
Quote:
It is better to die on your feet than to live on your knees, and in the case of the Amarr there is only one way to do that... slaughter
It is better to die on your knees as an angel than live on your feet as a monster. When we're finally gone, the only thing left of us will be the memory of our deeds. I intend to be remembered as a good man. You will be remembered as a murderer, even if your own people are the only ones left.
In time, generations with a more level head will arise, and question the need for butchery and slaughter. They will mourn the loss of their people's restraint, bemoan the unnecessary death, and curse the blade that shed blood needlessly when it should have been stayed.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Sallera Zephyr
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.07.08 18:41:00 -
[69]
Hm. Well, as always, I do find the various spiritual practices interesting, and yours no less so. But it really has nothing to do with the lust for meaningless slaughter you and many others seem to possess. When all you desire is destruction...
That aside, I am quite curious as to the spiritual implications of consuming your own corpse's flesh. ...curse it all, I can't find the reference. But I'm pretty sure you spoke of that at one point. What is the purpose, the meaning, the result?
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AsheRaven
Minmatar
The Stormcrow Milita
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Posted - 2008.07.08 18:48:00 -
[70]
The evolution of the stagnent Amarr is not my concern, so I will beat it to death to make us stronger.If the horse is weak then it will die and is useless. Are you so blind as to see this as just an issue of simple genetics? So people like me will be hated. surely by now you know that the most hardned of us are less concerend with ow history judges us, more with the legacies we will leave. Only a few in the amarr race have come to understand the tide that is coming their way. It is high, it is a torrent and it is bloody. I'm not ashamed of what must be done.
Even the Amarr are not so blind as to recognise that with every apocolypse, the monsters always take center stage.
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AsheRaven
Minmatar
The Stormcrow Milita
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Posted - 2008.07.08 18:52:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Sallera Zephyr
That aside, I am quite curious as to the spiritual implications of consuming your own corpse's flesh. ...curse it all, I can't find the reference. But I'm pretty sure you spoke of that at one point. What is the purpose, the meaning, the result?
It is a simple statement of life. It is hardly what we deem a debasement of our enemies or the fallen. To waste the body would dishnour the dead, so we take the strength of our enemies into our selves and take stock of their weakness. Through it we learn, we adapt, and the drinking of the blood keeps us reminded of the price we have paid.
Make no mistake, the Blood Clan Raven is a dying clan, even more so after the events at our former homeworld Sakulda. But we face our extinction with great fortitude. Our blood will be shed for your freedom, it is a small price to pay for us to take what is given.
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Sallera Zephyr
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.07.08 19:01:00 -
[72]
Well, that much is interesting, but I was referring not to your enemies', but your own.
Originally by: "AsheRaven"
When I saw my old body I fed on it...
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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.08 19:04:00 -
[73]
Quote:
surely by now you know that the most hardned of us are less concerend with ow history judges us, more with the legacies we will leave.
Again, that's the same damn thing.
Forget it, arguing with you would be like trying to break through the Crystal Boulevard with an ordinary spade.
Originally by: AsheRaven
Make no mistake, the Blood Clan Raven is a dying clan
...thankfully.
There are very few occasions where I condone loss of live, pilot. There are none where I will derive any satisfaction from the death of another human being.
It is now apparent to me, however, that you do not belong in that category. Anything that has lost all interest in being remembered favourably by history has abandoned all trace of humanity. You're proud to be a monster, which means that if the capsuleers don't put you down, then the ordinary humans will. Personally, I very much agree with Aria Jenneth - on the day that we Capsuleers are perceived as a race of monsters, then we all die.
You're a threat, not just to the Amarr, but to your comrades-in-arms and to all capsuleers everywhere.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
AsheRaven
Minmatar
The Stormcrow Milita
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Posted - 2008.07.08 19:12:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Sallera Zephyr
Well, that much is interesting, but I was referring not to your enemies', but your own.
Originally by: "AsheRaven"
When I saw my old body I fed on it...
Ahh yes. My old body before the Neris Sisiterhood of my clan fashioned their blasphmemic experiments to save themselves from the propcheies of Ashka Neris Raven, one of the Clans higest relegious figures;
"When the Raven prince dies, the blood will flow"
I was dying, so they gave me a new body, a new face and with it a whole new me. i looked on my old form and hated it, I saw it as a reminder of the weak, peace loving weakling I was and I fed upon it as one would an enemy. Many in the Clan saw this as a great sacrifice and pledged allegiience to what has now become the Blood Clan Raven. The rest we.... cleasnsed on our homeworlds of Sakulda. I fear that ther are stains on that world that will never be cleansed or washed away by the waters. Perhaps one day I will return to see...
*Goes silent for a moment as he closes his eyes... was that regret*
*Quickly his eyes snap back wiith defience*
But that was not a Republic matter, it was an iternal matter and none in the Republic have suffered at Blood Raven hand, though we have suffered the indignity of being labeled the butchers ever since...
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AsheRaven
Minmatar
The Stormcrow Milita
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Posted - 2008.07.08 19:15:00 -
[75]
Edited by: AsheRaven on 08/07/2008 19:15:47
Originally by: Stitcher
You're a threat, not just to the Amarr, but to your comrades-in-arms and to all capsuleers everywhere.
You speak as if I kill without cause or reason. see? See how we are misunderstood? Why would I kill those to whom the future must lay?
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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.08 19:38:00 -
[76]
Originally by: AsheRaven
You speak as if I kill without cause or reason. see? See how we are misunderstood? Why would I kill those to whom the future must lay?
Unintentionally. Your brand of zealotry scares people, Raven. People who will do everything in their power to wipe you from the face of the universe if they think they need to.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.07.08 20:02:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Veron Daerth on 08/07/2008 20:03:38
Pilot AsheRaven, you assume that those you seek to "save" or "liberate" will remember your wanton slaughter of everyone you perceived to be in the way of your goal to be a good thing.
I hope some day for the slaves of the Empire to take their rightful place amongst us as citizens, to strengthen the Empire with their will and their desire to make it a better place for themselves and their neighbors. Perhaps some day my vision will be successful and perhaps it will not. Should it come to pass however, there will be those that remember me as a builder of equality, a creator of something greater and more long lasting than any bloodshed and war can ever be. If you continue this path of slaughter and death, the best you can hope to be is a footnote in a history book documenting what not to do in war.
You decry the chance for change, and howl and bay for the blood of us all like a maddened animal. You claim we have no value in your eyes and so should be abused and killed and tossed upon the trash bin of history, preferably by your own hands. Can you not see, you have become the exact thing you claim to fight. To some Amarrians, you Matari have no value and should also be tossed aside like garbage. Both your and their points of view disgust me.
Every living person at birth has a soul, precious and unique and glorious. What you do with it is your concern. But however twisted and warped some of those souls become, they are still souls and thus are valuable in the eyes of God. You and the fanatics and zealots of Amarr cast this truth aside with your rejection of each others humanity. You both cannot see that God values each and every soul in and of itself. Everyone has a value, even the Amarr. That some Amarrians reject this even as you do does not excuse either them or you. God will correct this misapprehension upon your deaths, but out of concern for you and everyone else around you, I try to make this point here.
You claim a tidal wave of blood and death is coming. How quaint. You (either as a militia or as an alliance or as a nation) cannot overcome Amarr. Concord will not allow you to take the core of the Empire, The Imperial Fleets will not let you hold the core of the Empire, you simply dont have the numbers, not now, not ever. Since you cannot take the core of the Empire, you cannot achieve victory or even do much to effect the release of the slaves you seek to save. The recent Elder Fleet raid got what, a few million, minus the ones that died aboard the transports of the Fleet above Mekhios, and aboard the ships fleeing the Empire. There are billions and billions in the Empire enslaved as such.
Really, have you thought about it? How many systems does the Empire hold? How many planets, how many colonies, how many stations, how many habitats and domed cities on ice moons and on and on and on. The Empire is huge, Pilots, and you cant save but a fraction of the total slaves with violence and bloodshed. My way is slower to be sure, but it will work if given time. It will be better for all concerned in the long run, far better then the slaughter and hate and death and anger you advocate.
I hope you come to realize the scope of the problem here, because all I see is both sides (Amarrian zealots and Matari Liberators) throwing a tantrum. Yes its a big tantrum, and will be costly, but its a tantrum nonetheless. I am beginning to not care. You children throw your fit, break things, howl and whine and cry. Both sides can scream and wail and wepp for all I care, get angry and shout and bleat. It matters not, for while you all have your little fit (and thats all this war is when compared to the span of history) the adults will be trying to actually accomplish some things.
My apologies if some of the more moderate people got tarred with that brush there, I am out of patience for the self righteous drivel spouted by those with no sense.
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AsheRaven
Minmatar
The Stormcrow Milita
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Posted - 2008.07.08 20:18:00 -
[78]
You said two things that proved my points oh so elquently.
You long to see the day when slaves can be seen as cizitens. Molded in your image, to server the "One true God, the greater order with the Amerian Genepool at the very top." And you wonder why a true Matari would have issue with that statement
and you both point out the zealotry in my ways. Perhaps, I have made no attempt to hide this. But your empire of slavery will not crumble with diploamcy or conssion. You have proven time and time again that ou will never let go of your ways. So I embrace the way of a zealot to destroy zealots. Do you not see the beautiful in this? What you see as tanrumns I can only see as a war to the death. There can never be peace between our peoples until one dies or the other subjegates. I know which I would rather.
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Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.07.08 20:30:00 -
[79]
Pilot Ardan, I missed your transmission in all the flurry there. So, let me get this straight. You will kill my family and my friends and my workers because they benefit from slavery. You realize, I assume you actually read this, that quite a few of the slaves that I own are already manumitted after their term is up. You also realize that after that term, they often go back to work for me or some of my neighbors and in the local districts. They support slavery too, you know. Indirectly, yes, but support it they do.
You want me to simply free all my slaves. I have quite a few of them, but nowhere near the numbers that others boast. Where would they go? What would they do? I cannot afford to pay them all, not now, and not at a level you would consider fair. If I freed them and paid them, I could no longer afford to give them an education, or to house them or to clothe or feed them. They would have to do that themselves. But while they work to clothe, feed and house themselves, where will they eat, sleep, and what will they wear? Now, you, sir are going to suggest that I simply give them all the land they live on, that I give them the food they eat and the clothes they wear, and that I pay for it all. Fact is, I cant. Not enough income to balance an outflow of that proportion. Simple economics will demolish that argument.
Say they all agree to leave. (They wont, its been discussed by myself and their elders and councils and leaders, again, the above linked communication explains how they govern themselves for the most part so they actually have some internal authority. They also are mostly satisfied with their lives, they have good work, decent housing, clothing, food, wives, children, families, homes, even small towns and villages. You get to be the one to explain that they have to leave all that behind, that all they worked for and bled for and that they have won, yes WON, from Amarr is trivial and moot. I suggest that you have guards, lots and lots of guards. People do NOT take well to being told they have to leave their homes whether they like it or not, and tend to react...badly.) But say they do, where will they go, what will they do? How will they be fed? The slave population of my estates in total would equal the population of a small city alone. Where are you going to put that city? How are you going to move it, clothe it, feed it, educate it? What are you going to do with the majority that come to realize that what you offer isnt all its cracked up to be in the short term? Kill them too?
I am a bit angry with this argument, it goes around and around. So lets stop it now. You cant win, not the way you want. You want all the social change and equality and freedom and love and happiness and joy and good feeling that come with achieving something worthwhile, and you want it NOW. What you DONT realize is that what makes it worthwhile is the effort put into an endeavor.The effort to change Amarr from within sufficiently so as to make slavery unnecessary and needless is the only way to make it permanent. Otherwise, the remnant of Amarr you leave behind (you CANT get all of us, not even if you tried, there are too many, again) would just begin again, and in a few hundred more years you and we would have this discussion all over again.
Also, yes, if you tried to kill all of us, we would do the same to you. That you profess not to "fear" this is a sign of idiocy, possibly lunacy. If you dont "fear" the possibility of genocide on a galactic scale, then you are a fool, and a dangerous one at that. So dangerous in fact, that it would probably be to the benefit of the galaxy if your colleagues killed you themselves, before you got them and us all killed needlessly. Lord God above, do you even USE your brain? I mean, your talking about death on a scale untold and unimaginable. Get ahold of yourself, better yet, get over yourself.
God go with you.
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Sallera Zephyr
Ghost Festival
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Posted - 2008.07.08 20:39:00 -
[80]
You know, one might think there is greater virtue in not becoming what you seek to destroy.
At any rate, Lord Daerth is correct, these petty empyrean squabbles will never amount to anything. It's just Concord's way of saving face... and ammo. A war to the death would first have to involve non-capsuleer engagements. As long as the navies are all content to remain in their empires, and limit engagements against capsuleers to defending minor outposts, you'll never reach your goals.
You seem so accepting of the idea that blood will solve your problems. This ideal of reckless slaughter... well, enjoying the idea of mindless genocide is one of the more obvious signs of the dementia.
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Garion Avarr
Amarr
Zero Zero Traders
YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.07.08 20:49:00 -
[81]
Originally by: AsheRaven
You said two things that proved my points oh so elquently.
You long to see the day when slaves can be seen as cizitens. Molded in your image, to server the "One true God, the greater order with the Amerian Genepool at the very top." And you wonder why a true Matari would have issue with that statement
Logical fallacy. You are, intentionally or not, using a Straw Man argument, as my understanding of our religious imperative -- and I am not a theologian, my understanding may be flawed -- is that we are to help the other races until they are as holy as the True Amarr. In which case, the end result would be that they are our equals, not our servants.
Additionally, I can point to a number of Matari that would have no problem with that statement. If you wish to suggest that they are not true Matari if agree with the statement, you are also committing a logical fallacy.
Originally by: AsheRaven
and you both point out the zealotry in my ways. Perhaps, I have made no attempt to hide this. But your empire of slavery will not crumble with diploamcy or conssion. You have proven time and time again that ou will never let go of your ways.
On the contrary, progress was being made. Slower than you would like, I am sure, you want things to happen instantly when they very rarely can, but progress was being made, the taking of slaves in Republic space had been outlawed, there were a few (mostly symbolic, I admit) repatriations of slaves, and so forth. Your point is incorrect.
Originally by: AsheRaven
So I embrace the way of a zealot to destroy zealots. Do you not see the beautiful in this? What you see as tanrumns I can only see as a war to the death. There can never be peace between our peoples until one dies or the other subjegates. I know which I would rather.
No, I do not see the beauty in it, I see the insanity of it, I see the very thing you fight against within you.
I see a war to the death, yes -- the death of all, not of one side, but of both.
There can never be peace until either both sides die, or until both sides do away with their zealots.
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This is not a signature. |
AsheRaven
Minmatar
The Stormcrow Milita
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Posted - 2008.07.08 20:54:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Garion Avarr
I see a war to the death, yes -- the death of all, not of one side, but of both.
There can never be peace until either both sides die, or until both sides do away with their zealots.
You see it clearer than most
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Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.07.08 20:59:00 -
[83]
<Veron Daerth sighs>
No Pilot AsheRaven, you miss my point entirely. Change is SLOW, and effecting change on a scale that you desire is also SLOW. It will take GENERATIONS to complete. You say that "time and again" we prove ourselves to be untrustworthy. Emperor Heideran banned the taking of slaves from outside the Empire. It was unpopular with the slavers, so some of them ignored it, but it was and STILL IS, against Amarrian Imperial Law to take a slave from outside the Empire, hence the "rogue" part of the term "Rogue Slavers".
In the time of my great grandfather, slaves had no rights, the very idea was ludicrous. Today they have some legal protections and rights, not very good protections by your reckoning, but its still rights and protections they didnt have 100 - 200 years ago. In another 100 years or so, who knows what would have happened.
Emperors Heideran and Doriam II both supported the inclusion and, to an extent, the modernization of Amarr. Do you have any idea what a "modern" culture does to an insular, contained society? It usually overwhelms and modifies it to such an extent that it is unrecognizable to citizens of even a few generations ago. Emphasis on the "GENERATIONS" part. Given time, the influence of the Caldari and Gallente, and yes, even the Matar, would have changes Amarr, and for the better. Given time, there would have (and can still be) no need for the "slavery" you rail against. No, the slaves would not be sent back home, but they would be free. The religious stagnation you speak so blithely of would have dissipated over time, lessened to a degree. The tolerance and influence of the Gallente would have been of great benefit here. But that is all changed now. The Gallente influence will be cracked down upon amongst other things.
The hardliners and fanatics of the Empire rule now, and will for some time. Thanks so much for that by the way. The actions of the radicals on your side have allowed the radicals of our side to take power, hooray. No fanaticism and zealotry are not beautiful. I dont care who is doing it. The Amarrian fanatics are not justified either by God and His will, or by the simple morality of their actions. You, in your turn, arent either. In fact, your just as bad as they are, and both of you should be put down for fear you will all infect the populaces of our respective nations and goad this conflict into all out war. If that happens, we all will get to see what genocide looks like. Enjoy it, because the "tide of blood" that genocide entails will not stop at the border. Genocide has a bad habit of killing everyone and everything near, around or moderately close to it. Matari space isnt THAT far from Imperial space.
What you and people like you never seem to realize is that war and death is just a tool, and a blunt one at that. You cant change people with war, and you cant make things better with a war. You can kill people with war, and can make things a lot worse with it. What gets you change and accomplishment of worthwhile goals is not war, its the aftermath of war, and at some point, you have to sit down and talk to your enemy to do that. War is just a way to get him to sit down with you. I suspect that, in time, this war will fade, and our Nations will have to all sit down and hammer out some accord. Then you all go home and cheer and have a party. Then the next day, people like me get to work on the real rebuilding, the real goal, the real peace.
A great general once said "Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win." He also said "For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill." Lastly he said this, "There has never been a protracted war from which a country has benefited."
I suggest you consider that. I know you wont, but I ask you to anyway. Not because I fear you, but because I fear FOR you.
Go be with you.
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Garion Avarr
Amarr
Zero Zero Traders
YTMND.
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Posted - 2008.07.08 21:01:00 -
[84]
Originally by: AsheRaven
Originally by: Garion Avarr
I see a war to the death, yes -- the death of all, not of one side, but of both.
There can never be peace until either both sides die, or until both sides do away with their zealots.
You see it clearer than most
I do thank you for the compliment, but if you also agree with that and think that it is a good thing (as your words have suggested that you do, please forgive me if I am mistaken), then that rather firmly classifies you as 'insane.'
Are you aware that the above conditions for peace require either the death of all Amarr and all Matari, or the death of all people like, and including, yourself (on both sides of the conflict)?
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AsheRaven
Minmatar
The Stormcrow Milita
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Posted - 2008.07.08 21:32:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Garion Avarr
Originally by: AsheRaven
Are you aware that the above conditions for peace require either the death of all Amarr and all Matari, or the death of all people like, and including, yourself (on both sides of the conflict)?
Pretty much yes. Only when you see the monsters amongst you can you over come the monster within. Either I am insane or see the Universe for it really is
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Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.07.08 21:55:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Veron Daerth on 08/07/2008 21:55:14
Pilot AsheRaven, since the Universe is provably not insane (it just seems like that sometimes) I will have to support the hypothesis that you are. Seriously, you KNOW that the path you advocate will result in the death of not only those you seek to punish, but those you seek to protect, and that it is all needless, yet you follow it anyway? That is insanity.
There can be no excuse for the criminal treatment of the slaves in the Empire. Some of us seek to change that. You accuse us of not doing enough, and yet, your solution is to.. how do I put it.. "Kill them all and let God sort them out?" Thats not just insane, thats ludicrous. Your "solution" would have most of the cluster dead or dying. Thats is no solution at all.
One other thing I just noticed. You mentioned that I seek to "convert" as many people as possible to my religion. You are correct. I seek to let others know of God's love for them, that they are of great value in His eyes. I seek to have Men acknowledge that God created them for a greater purpose than to destroy and kill each other. That we, as a species have great potential. And that we waste that potential in our petty bickering and squabbling. I seek to enlighten all people to the Word of God.
Do not mistake me with those fools that believe that God wants us to subjugate and destroy all that is not Amarr. They have been taken in by the charlatans that rule our Empire for their own greed and lust. I have repeatedly stated that enslaving someone is not a good way to get him to listen to you and understand the Word of God. Alas that more do not understand that, but that, too is changing, though, again, much more slowly than you would seem to want.
Really, who WOULDNT like to know that there is a God that loves you, and cares for you, and weeps when you fall, and is proud for you when you achieve some great inspiration or insight. That there is a place of great wonder and light that awaits those who are worthy of it, and that you are given many chances to achieve that worthiness and in many ways. The Matari could use a bit of the focus and purpose that comes from it as well.
Realistically, the era's of rampant arrogance and prejudice should be over by now. We would all be better off without those qualities. But they persist. That you would spread these qualities is an indication of why they persist. The times of eating each other's flesh and killing for a mistaken sense of superiority make great tales with which to frighten our children and to show them how far we have come. To illustrate how we might have been were it not for the Light of civilization. That does not mean that these things have any place in the world as it is now. Once, you say, many consumed the flesh of their vanquished foes for some reason or another. The Amarrians once took to the skies in unstoppable fleets and enslaved entire worlds. You dont see me screaming for that to happen again, do you?
Some things belong in the past, locked away and left as a testament to the barbarism of that past. Those things are there to warn us of the great depths we as a species can sink to. They are NOT things to aspire for.
Let the Light of God bring you wisdom.
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AsheRaven
Minmatar
The Stormcrow Milita
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Posted - 2008.07.08 22:03:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Veron Daerth
Edited by: Veron Daerth on 08/07/2008 21:55:14
Pilot AsheRaven, since the Universe is provably not insane (it just seems like that sometimes) I will have to support the hypothesis that you are. Seriously, you KNOW that the path you advocate will result in the death of not only those you seek to punish, but those you seek to protect, and that it is all needless, yet you follow it anyway? That is insanity.
War is hell
Originally by: Veron Daerth
There can be no excuse for the criminal treatment of the slaves in the Empire. Some of us seek to change that. You accuse us of not doing enough, and yet, your solution is to.. how do I put it.. "Kill them all and let God sort them out?" Thats not just insane, thats ludicrous. Your "solution" would have most of the cluster dead or dying. Thats is no solution at all.
Why? either way the augument is settled. If the Matri fail again then we deserve to be enslaved. Thats not an issue with me, they would be too weak to follow the old Brutor mantra, "better to die on your feet than to live on your knees" anyway.
Originally by: Veron Daerth
One other thing I just noticed. You mentioned that I seek to "convert" as many people as possible to my religion. You are correct. I seek to let others know of God's love for them, that they are of great value in His eyes. I seek to have Men acknowledge that God created them for a greater purpose than to destroy and kill each other. That we, as a species have great potential. And that we waste that potential in our petty bickering and squabbling. I seek to enlighten all people to the Word of God.
God doesn't love, neither does the one. I won't aurgue relegion with you, but there is no love in the universe, only "the way of things." Nothing, God nor man can change that. What use is your enlightnement when by it's very mantra it will never be done. One path to enlightenment is stagnation. Never follow a path, go off the road and make a trail.
Originally by: Veron Daerth
Really, who WOULDNT like to know that there is a God that loves you, and cares for you, and weeps when you fall, and is proud for you when you achieve some great inspiration or insight.
Even iif it were true, why would it matter?
Originally by: Veron Daerth
Let the Light of God bring you wisdom.
Let the Waters of the One show you the way
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Veron Daerth
Amarr
Blood Meridian
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Posted - 2008.07.08 22:37:00 -
[88]
Pilot AsheRaven, you have me aghast. I admit it.
War is Hell, yes. Thankfully, War is also temporary by its very nature, and the people that survive that Hell often regret some of the things that happen while they were in it. The smart ones DONT want to go back, but sometimes will if they feel really compelled to. The real men, real warriors, the real soldiers do their duty. They do it because it needs to be done. They kill if necessary, and do not if it isnt. They dont go and kill the enemies family and friends and neighbors and co-workers. They do not revel in the slaughter of those that stand against them, though they do not shrink from it either. They do not harm those that cannot harm them. They dont do that because it is counterproductive.
What does killing everyone matter? A great deal. Those that die are not inherently weak. Those that fail are not inherently weak. There are many reasons for someone to fail at something. To look at in a different light, the best solution for this war is for BOTH sides to "fail". Then we can come to an agreement and get on with making the Empire a better place (I can do that, you can go warp into a black hole if you want to, but I dont recommend it) and to address the flaws in the Empire. If the Matar behave as you do, and achieve victory over the corpses of every Amarrian out there, you will be outcast by all the other societies, even your allies, the Gallente. You will be reviled and hated and chastised. You might even be attacked by the other Nations in order to halt what you are doing. Can you fight the Cluster? Alone? No, you cannot. If you think it cant happen, I suggest that you look into what happened to the original Sansha's Nation.
No love in the universe. Thats not even laughable. Thats immensely pitiful and saddening. So I dont love my wife? So your mother didnt love you? Didnt care for you? Didnt want you? Do all mothers not care for their children? Do all fathers? How about siblings? You argument is fallacious. If God took the time to create us, and watches us, not in an effort to dictate to us, but to have us learn to better ourselves, then that is not love? No Pilot, you make a grave error there. God does love you. And God can change the universe as He sees fit, but that would mean that free will meant nothing, and He gave that to us for a reason also. Perhaps one day, you will discover why. Enlightenment is not stagnation, because enlightenment is a result of discovery, and learning. Learning is the acquisition of new knowledge, and its understanding. This is the very antithesis of stagnation. The reason that the Empire is stagnant is its base assumption that it knows the one and true meaning of God's Will, an equally fallacious ideal.
What would it matter if God loved you? A great deal. But if you cannot fathom the inner peace it brings one to realize that there is right and wrong and good and evil and love and hate and that the universe is not a pit of emotionless apathy then I cannot explain it to you. Suffice it to say that many many people take great comfort in the idea of being loved by someone or something. Most of humanity in fact. That you are not one of these people, well, thats also immensely saddening.
Trails and Paths. Yes, never follow a path thats told to you to be better than all the rest. That assumption of superiority is the result of Vanity and Pride. Follow a path of your own choosing, as I follow mine. They ways to God are many, and He does not command one above another, so long as it leads to Him in the End. If you make your own Way, so much the better.
The One. I dont know of your "The One". Perhaps He is my God as well, and you just dont know it. Perhaps not. What benefit would his "Waters" bring to me? I know my way, even as you supposedly know yours. Perhaps we seek the same thing? If your "One" would tell me of hate and death and meaningless, then he can keep it. If not, then we might have something to talk about.
Blessings upon you.
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AsheRaven
Minmatar
The Stormcrow Milita
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Posted - 2008.07.08 22:48:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Veron Daerth
So your mother didnt love you? Didnt care for you?
Considering I never knew my mother and was the product of your slave camps I'll leave that answer for you to answer. As for my mentor, Corin Raven, it decry's belief that a man who so openly executed families in the amarrian empire is considered a war here, yet I am considered tyrant. Ah well, it just goes to show you, survive a great war and live to be old and you can become anything, die young and you remain what you were always percieved.
The irony here is Corin the war hero taught me everything I knew, and he's one of the most merciless monsters I know.
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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.09 00:17:00 -
[90]
Originally by: AsheRaven
Either I am insane or see the Universe for it really is
I think it's a fairly safe bet that not a single man in the history of human utterances who has ever spoken that phrase, or one like it, was sane.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
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