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Pteranodon
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Posted - 2008.06.25 10:39:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Pteranodon on 25/06/2008 10:44:57
Edited by: Pteranodon on 25/06/2008 10:41:05
Many months ago I stepped into a shiny new Megathron. I thought I was god. I'm in a battleship & nothing can touch me. How wrong I was- A Taranis & his gang of mates killed me in a 2 minute firefight. Why?- because I was not ready to pilot a battleship.
I read the threads in this forum about new players struggling to run level4 missions in there choice of battleship. Running before they have even fallen out of there cot.
So, I want to add value & dispell some myths about battleships so everyone is clear what I think & know. Some of you might not care but those who do read on.
1. You can pilot any ship you like in Eve provided you have the prerequisites to sit in it. This does not mean you are qualified to bring out the best in that ship so don't get blaze' because you've spent 2 months training for that shiny battleship- you might not keep it.
2. You don't need a tec2 tank-just use faction. Well faction is often initially a substitute for low skills and is very expensive for a new player. Experienced Eve players use faction when all other options for fit i.e. CPU & power grid requirements are paramount and not neccessarily because faction is better. Consider this a tec2 large armor repairer base resist 800 damage repaired costs 2 million or so. A true sansha version costs 100 million plus & only repairs 100 more armor- I know which one I'd go for everyday use. The difference is only 20 days or so training.
3. You can get buy with a tec1 tank. Sometimes- with tactics yes. In other situations no. In downing the slavers level4 second part you might get owned- you could get lucky & live. Accept that if you intend only using a base tec1 tank in level 4's you are going to die a bit.
4. My Raven is a shield tank- it can survive anything. Well- no it cant. Unless you have skills which allow you to manage shield & cap with tec2 hardeners forget about that XL shield booster being your saviour. You will cap out fast with over judicious use.
5. I have cruise missiles- they should kill anything fast. They won't kill small frigates very quick unless you have excellent missile skills. You need to be training drones as well which again is something you need to consider. The same considerations are given to large guns & even more to consider when using these. The small frigates are the most lethal things you need to kill in your battleship. They will scramble & web you & you will probably be dead with no drones & bad missile skills.
My point is that I was shocked at the sheer number of skills required to high levels to pilot a battleship well & any player with less than 10 million skill points focused well does not fly battleships well. That is not a troll it is a fact based on the required skill levels needed.
Fell free to troll & debate & add things of value.
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Iron Wraith
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Posted - 2008.06.25 11:49:00 -
[2]
yeah, it does take a lot of skills to make a BS shine. and it all comes down to numbers. a % boost to a small number gives a small result, ie in a frig your skills dont have a massive effect on the ship. however a % boost of a big number gives a big result, ie in a BS those skills make a massive difference to what the ship can do.
so, thats why you always see the vets preaching on about newbies not being ready for a BS, and its true, it does take a long time to get a BS to fly right.
however if all you want to do is sit in a low lvl mission in a huge ass BS with your drones doing most of the work because, for you, thats FUN then go and do it! plenty of newbies have jumped into a BS too early, and as long as they realise that they are just flying an easy to hit cruiser then there is no reason why they cant have fun doing it.
eve is a game, find out what you enjoy from it and go and do it. dont expect to be a leet titan pilot in a month, but there is no reason why you cant put that on your list of things to do for the long term.
Because sometimes you just have to go back to your roots:
[2005.02.20 01:08:03] (combat) Your Civilian Light Electron Blaster perfectly strikes Serpentis Smuggler, wrecking for 20.3 damage |
Pwett
QUANT Corp.
QUANT Hegemony
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Posted - 2008.06.25 12:44:00 -
[3]
Very good post Pteranodon.
Now imagine taking this post and applying it to a Typhoon  . Actually, when all my new guts get the battleship itch, I put them in a phoon and show them how much the greater the support skills are than the ship skills.
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Pwett
CEO, Founder, & Executor
<Q> QUANT Hegemony
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Jack Gilligan
Dragon's Rage
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Posted - 2008.06.25 12:52:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Pwett
Very good post Pteranodon.
Now imagine taking this post and applying it to a Typhoon . Actually, when all my new guts get the battleship itch, I put them in a phoon and show them how much the greater the support skills are than the ship skills.
Typhoons are great specialist mission runners. I used to keep one fitted for EM/Therm dominant missions, such as Sansha, since it was (before the resist nerf) easy to get your EM resists over 90% on one. But yeah, it's probably the most skill intensive T1 ship in the game, as you have to have good missile, projectile, drone, and armor skills.
Ravens are the overall king of PVE though, if you get to the point where you can get your shield resists over 70% on the rat specifics, your shields to over 10K HP, and a permarunning XL booster, only making a mistake (READ THE MISSION GUIDES) can get you killed in a L4.
My opinions are my own and do not reflect those of my corporation or alliance. |
Hanneshannes
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Posted - 2008.06.25 13:00:00 -
[5]
Meh, ppl will keep doing it. I jumped into a BS with like 3M SP and started doing missions in it but I never lost it and I'm still flying it.
Imo, the best way to learn that you are not ready for something is to use it and see it get blown up. Just my opinion.
Use faction modules as well if you like, a BS that dies very easy and drops a month's pay is always welcome ^_^
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Tasko Pal
Heron Corporation
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Posted - 2008.06.25 13:41:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Pteranodon
3. You can get buy with a tec1 tank. Sometimes- with tactics yes. In other situations no. In downing the slavers level4 second part you might get owned- you could get lucky & live. Accept that if you intend only using a base tec1 tank in level 4's you are going to die a bit.
[...]
Quote:
My point is that I was shocked at the sheer number of skills required to high levels to pilot a battleship well & any player with less than 10 million skill points focused well does not fly battleships well. That is not a troll it is a fact based on the required skill levels needed.
No offense but are we talking missions or pvp? Sure for pvp, tech 1 and low skills won't cut it. But 10 million skill points is quite a bit for pve. My take is that pve just isn't that skill intensive. For example, using t2 hardeners and t2 shield boosters takes about 225k (or maybe 270k if you need to pick up engineering 4 too) skill points to get. My take is that a focused character flying either the raven or the dominix with 5 mil skill points and named t1 gear could complete any level 4 mission. Sure it'll probably take two hours and maybe a bunch of warp outs, but it can be done without requiring unusually good luck. Further, it's just not that hard to get t2 gear for tanking.
For pve, the real problem is that a battleship is both more expensive and level 4 missions are much harder. So when you make mistakes, you could be making them with a sturdy 10 mil isk cruiser setup in an easy level 2 mission or a warp scrambled, 150 mil isk raven setup in a room full of aggro, doomed to die.
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Pteranodon
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Posted - 2008.06.25 14:23:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Tasko Pal
Originally by: Pteranodon
3. You can get buy with a tec1 tank. Sometimes- with tactics yes. In other situations no. In downing the slavers level4 second part you might get owned- you could get lucky & live. Accept that if you intend only using a base tec1 tank in level 4's you are going to die a bit.
[...]
Quote:
My point is that I was shocked at the sheer number of skills required to high levels to pilot a battleship well & any player with less than 10 million skill points focused well does not fly battleships well. That is not a troll it is a fact based on the required skill levels needed.
No offense but are we talking missions or pvp? Sure for pvp, tech 1 and low skills won't cut it. But 10 million skill points is quite a bit for pve. My take is that pve just isn't that skill intensive. For example, using t2 hardeners and t2 shield boosters takes about 225k (or maybe 270k if you need to pick up engineering 4 too) skill points to get. My take is that a focused character flying either the raven or the dominix with 5 mil skill points and named t1 gear could complete any level 4 mission. Sure it'll probably take two hours and maybe a bunch of warp outs, but it can be done without requiring unusually good luck. Further, it's just not that hard to get t2 gear for tanking.
For pve, the real problem is that a battleship is both more expensive and level 4 missions are much harder. So when you make mistakes, you could be making them with a sturdy 10 mil isk cruiser setup in an easy level 2 mission or a warp scrambled, 150 mil isk raven setup in a room full of aggro, doomed to die.
I think you have clearly illustrated the point of my post. Doing things well is at least level 4. The requirements to run an effective shield tank are at least 1.2 million skill points. Anything less just does not cut it & armor tanking including the repers & plates must be about the same. When we run things properly we aim for skill level 4 or 5-anything else is just a "get me started move".
I am repeated asked the question why I trained my battleship skills to level 5 & I answer "it is just better"-it takes a long time but as one poster said 5% on a battleship hull is a lot more armor. I will never look down on people or be overly critical but I believe you should do everything possible to protect your investment. The difficulty I see is the time involved to train to high levels when other things seem so much more exciting & inviting. If you are going to fly battleships then fly them well & that tank needs much more than 250K of skillpoints & I'm talking PVE- PVP needs like-years!
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Tanith YarnDemon
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Posted - 2008.06.25 15:10:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Pteranodon
I think you have clearly illustrated the point of my post. Doing things well is at least level 4. The requirements to run an effective shield tank are at least 1.2 million skill points. Anything less just does not cut it & armor tanking including the repers & plates must be about the same. When we run things properly we aim for skill level 4 or 5-anything else is just a "get me started move".
Your post strives for the minimum amount of skills to do the job-I say strive for the maximum to get the job done & be safe. I don't think you can ever overskill if you want to be good at something-it is just a rule of diminishing returns but the whole adds up to a great specialist pilot.
I am repeatedly asked the question why I trained my battleship skills to level 5 & I answer "it is just better"-it takes a long time but as one poster said 5% on a battleship hull is a lot more armor. I will never look down on people or be overly critical but I believe you should do everything possible to protect your investment. The difficulty I see is the time involved to train to high levels when other things seem so much more exciting & inviting. If you are going to fly battleships then fly them well & that tank needs much more than 250K of skillpoints & I'm talking PVE- PVP needs like-years!
Your post orbits entirely around skillpoints. Skillpoints are indeed largely irrelevant. From the last days of my trial I've been able to run level 4 missions. Yeah, they're faster now. Including making the money for the few(!) faction components I was using, a timecode and a Raven.
And saying that pvp needs years of skilltraining is just silly. You can head out on your first day of trial and both solo and play an important role in a fleet. Yes, things can improve from that point, but the important piece will _always_ be experience and actual ability to apply your skillpoints - not just possess them.
If you focus you can with ease run all missions with less than 2m relevant SP, and make the money yourself to run it by that time using conventional moneymaking ways, no scamming, no trading(other than just selling loot) etc.
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Pteranodon
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Posted - 2008.06.25 15:25:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Pteranodon on 25/06/2008 15:27:31
Originally by: Tanith YarnDemon
Originally by: Pteranodon
I think you have clearly illustrated the point of my post. Doing things well is at least level 4. The requirements to run an effective shield tank are at least 1.2 million skill points. Anything less just does not cut it & armor tanking including the repers & plates must be about the same. When we run things properly we aim for skill level 4 or 5-anything else is just a "get me started move".
Your post strives for the minimum amount of skills to do the job-I say strive for the maximum to get the job done & be safe. I don't think you can ever overskill if you want to be good at something-it is just a rule of diminishing returns but the whole adds up to a great specialist pilot.
I am repeatedly asked the question why I trained my battleship skills to level 5 & I answer "it is just better"-it takes a long time but as one poster said 5% on a battleship hull is a lot more armor. I will never look down on people or be overly critical but I believe you should do everything possible to protect your investment. The difficulty I see is the time involved to train to high levels when other things seem so much more exciting & inviting. If you are going to fly battleships then fly them well & that tank needs much more than 250K of skillpoints & I'm talking PVE- PVP needs like-years!
Your post orbits entirely around skillpoints. Skillpoints are indeed largely irrelevant. From the last days of my trial I've been able to run level 4 missions. Yeah, they're faster now. Including making the money for the few(!) faction components I was using, a timecode and a Raven.
And saying that pvp needs years of skilltraining is just silly. You can head out on your first day of trial and both solo and play an important role in a fleet. Yes, things can improve from that point, but the important piece will _always_ be experience and actual ability to apply your skillpoints - not just possess them.
If you focus you can with ease run all missions with less than 2m relevant SP, and make the money yourself to run it by that time using conventional moneymaking ways, no scamming, no trading(other than just selling loot) etc.
Wrong. Skillpoints in this case are only being used as a metric. If all the skill points you have are applied to one discipline & in this case the discipline is battleships. If I have 2 million skillpoints in the associated skills to fly a battleship your not very good at flying battleships. If I have ten million skillpoints in those same areas & everything useful connected with battleships them I'm going to better at surviving in a hostile PVE enviroment. Now-experience that is a completely different metric. As for PVP not being skillpoint intensive-that metric is time-I look forward to many of the PVP corps handing you your arse on a plate because that is what they do & it takes years to be able to do it really well. Many of the better PVP corps set a minimum skill point of 20 million & a minimum number of kills & you cant get that 1 day into the game.
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Joe Starbreaker
Starbreaker Frigateers
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Posted - 2008.06.25 15:48:00 -
[10]
I support this poast encouraging newbies to "just fit faction" if they don't have the skills for T2. Also they should reply to this thread and tell us where they mission and what their ship name is.
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Seeking frigateers!
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Tysheara
Running with Cheese
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Posted - 2008.06.25 16:01:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tanith YarnDemon
Your post orbits entirely around skill points. Skill points are indeed largely irrelevant. From the last days of my trial I've been able to run level 4 missions(What ship where you using). Yeah, they're faster now. Including making the money for the few(!) faction components I was using, a timecode and a Raven.
And saying that pvp needs years of skill training is just silly. You can head out on your first day of trial and both solo and play an important role in a fleet. Yes, things can improve from that point, but the important piece will _always_ be experience and actual ability to apply your skillpoints - not just possess them.
If you focus you can with ease run all level 2 missions with less than 2m relevant SP, and make the money yourself to run it by that time using conventional moneymaking ways, no scamming, no trading(other than just selling loot) etc.
Fixed the last part for you and I would like to know what you where flying at the end of your trial? Maybe they changed it but when I started you could not fly BC or BS on trial accounts and there isn't no way a cruiser is gona do level 4 with out a lot of SP.
Yes SP are irrelevant to someone that has played this game for along time they could make an alt and do thing nubs cant but this is still a skill.
Only thing I agree is that you don't need years to PVP.
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Tanith YarnDemon
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Posted - 2008.06.25 16:07:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Tanith YarnDemon on 25/06/2008 16:09:39
Originally by: Pteranodon
Wrong. Skillpoints in this case are only being used as a metric. If all the skill points you have are applied to one discipline & in this case the discipline is battleships. If I have 2 million skillpoints in the associated skills to fly a battleship your not very good at flying battleships. If I have ten million skillpoints in those same areas & everything useful connected with battleships them I'm going to better at surviving in a hostile PVE enviroment. Now-experience that is a completely different metric. As for PVP not being skillpoint intensive-that metric is time-I look forward to many of the PVP corps handing you your arse on a plate because that is what they do & it takes years to be able to do it really well. Many of the better PVP corps set a minimum skill point of 20 million & a minimum number of kills & you cant get that 1 day into the game.
True to a certain extent. Experience is indeed a metric that can be tied to skillpoints, hence some corps use that metric to filter out the majority of players who are indeed left clueless. Number of kills is another. They're both equally worthless.
What seems I was unable to explain is that you can always find pvp on your level. Wether that means scouting for your bs-fleet, openning cynos, duelling frigates in empire, wardeccing miners or suicideganking haulers. Even in a battleship you can play important roles - such as bait.
If you were right, the fact that it is possible to run level 4's while still in trial would be impossible, no? You can rack up battleship after battleship, dread after dread where the pilot had plenty of skillpoints but no clue how to use them. I'm a bad battleship pilot, no doubt about it. That does not mean I can't handle all level 4 missions with ease. I just passed 4m SP, a large portion of those are in irrelevant skills such as Learning. If I had 1.2m SP in shield tanking alone... where would that leave me?
Time does not equal relevant skillpoints, does not equal experience. Put to much weight and respect in age and you've lost already.
Originally by: Tysheara
Fixed the last part for you and I would like to know what you where flying at the end of your trial? Maybe they changed it but when I started you could not fly BC or BS on trial accounts and there isn't no way a cruiser is gona do level 4 with out a lot of SP.
Yes SP are irrelevant to someone that has played this game for along time they could make an alt and do thing nubs cant but this is still a skill.
Only thing I agree is that you don't need years to PVP.
With the end of trial, I meant towards the end of my free 21 days, I bought a GTC the moment I could spare 140m. The ship was a Raven, and I did indeed mean level 4's.
I'm not saying it does not take skill to be good at pve or pvp, I'm saying skillpoints are not as important as OP makes it sound.
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Ghengis Tia
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Posted - 2008.06.25 17:05:00 -
[13]
Flying level IV's in my new Typhoon was an eye-opener, I realized that Drone Interfacing V, Heavy Drones V to get (to t2 Heavies), Cruise Missiles IV or V, Minmatar BS to IV or V, and last but not least, Heavy Projectile IV or V were a must. (This is assuming support skills are also up there.)
I do not regret going the Raven route, after all of this I will be able to fly any BS once I've trained the Frigs and Cruiser prereqs.
After flying hundreds of missions and learning a bit each time, the rigor of Eve is both challenging and satisfying.
I agree fully with the OP, you may be able to fly a BS, but may not be able to keep it. Ravens the exception, I guess.
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Kalana Eargon
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Posted - 2008.06.25 19:05:00 -
[14]
Yes I remeber getting into a Raven at 3mil SP, luckily I had already seen a Lvl 4 mission and didn't do them straight away. I have to disagree with the 10mil SP required to fly a battleship well in Eve, I can use all T2 modules on my Raven accept XL Booster and shield amp, I was able to do that at around 5-6mil SP, now I have almost 8mil SP and I can do all Lvl 4 missions like cake, well except for the one you mentioned, I might be able to but I don't do missions anymore. As for PvP I partly agree, 10mil SP will enable you to fly a BS well in PvP, but most of it depends on how you actually fit your ship. Then again this is just my personal experience and since Ravens pwn at PvE this may not go for other faction battleships.
That was nice advice for someone getting a BS or someone new to a BS bravo.
As for faction tank... If you can't use T2 modules to tank your ship with don't go spending more than your ship costs on faction mods because if you don't have good SP your going to regret it. Named modules will do just fine in most cases for the T2 challenged. Well unless you have a lot of money but someone new to battleships and 3mil SP probably won't have that much money to waste.
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Pteranodon
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Posted - 2008.06.25 20:14:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Joe Starbreaker
I support this poast encouraging newbies to "just fit faction" if they don't have the skills for T2. Also they should reply to this thread and tell us where they mission and what their ship name is.
I like your style- but it was put in a rhetorical way- I don't advocate faction unless your either very rich & like to pimp your ship or there is an overwhelming reason for the fit but either way-it is going to make your day when a gang of faction fitted noobs show up in battleships with 3 million skill points each.
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Lakche
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Posted - 2008.06.25 22:38:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Pteranodon
Edited by: Pteranodon on 25/06/2008 10:44:57
Edited by: Pteranodon on 25/06/2008 10:41:05
Many months ago I stepped into a shiny new Megathron. I thought I was god. I'm in a battleship & nothing can touch me. How wrong I was- A Taranis & his gang of mates killed me in a 2 minute firefight. Why?- because I got WTFBBQ ganked by a group of tech II ships, and no amount of training in the world could have helped me, and tbqh I probably would have had a better chance of warping out in a smaller ship regardless of skills.
FYP!
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Pteranodon
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Posted - 2008.06.26 06:42:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Lakche
Originally by: Pteranodon
Edited by: Pteranodon on 25/06/2008 10:44:57
Edited by: Pteranodon on 25/06/2008 10:41:05
Many months ago I stepped into a shiny new Megathron. I thought I was god. I'm in a battleship & nothing can touch me. How wrong I was- A Taranis & his gang of mates killed me in a 2 minute firefight. Why?- because I got WTFBBQ ganked by a group of tech II ships, and no amount of training in the world could have helped me, and tbqh I probably would have had a better chance of warping out in a smaller ship regardless of skills.
FYP!
Yep- That's about it- nice to see quotes are getting more & more accurate- way to go-look forward to my next party!!
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Xan Nailloris
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Posted - 2008.06.27 02:22:00 -
[18]
A few months ago I stepped into a shiny new Dominix. I didn't think I was a god. Quite the contrary. I was quite aware that my 2.7M SP total weren't exactly very much and that not being able to even equip large turrets was... well... embarassing. My friends discouraged me of even thinking of attempting a level 4 mission solo. But well, I am not that easily discouraged...
My first L4 mission was... well I dont remember the name but it was a rogue drones mission with several pockets, one of those moderately tough. I don't intend to pretend it was a piece of cake. Actually it was PITA of the highest caliber. I had to warp out countless times and it took me like 4 hours to finish it. Rewards were ridiculous as drones yield no bounties and most of the wrecks disappeared before I had the chance to loot them. Yes, so slow I was. But I did it! Despite what everyone was saying.
Now this is the point when you probably think something like: "Yes, that's exactly what we are talking about. Such a noob, he should have got back to cruiser and run L2s and train his skills up meanwhile". Wrong. Plain wrong. It was the experience worth billion ISK which saved me months of toon development time.
After that lenghty and warp-outs rich mission I spent some time thinking of what to prioritize to be able to run L4s more easily. After some analysis, I decided to focus on drones and tanking. Not only did I stop worrying about large guns but I unfitted guns from the ship altogether. Biggest training time investment was clearly bringing Drones to level V. That was clearly a must have. It took some 6 days when I did run a few missions with corpmate as it was crystal clear I am severely underpowered in all respects you could think of.
When Drones were at V, next logical step was Drone Interfacing. +20% damage to all drones' damage per skill level was clearly something worth training. Meanwhile I learned about how to make a decent tank. I decided to invest 50M into three CCC rigs as cap stability was the key issue there. You can imagine what pain it was to spend so hardly earned 50M into something i might lose in a matter of seconds.
Refitting the ship was necessary as well as the original fitting was... well... ridiculous. BattleClinic helped a lot to get some inspiration which way to go but the final setup was largely suited to my, limited SP needs. T2 stuff was a dream at best so I used the best named (!not faction) T1 stuff I could afford, approximately 0.5-1M per module.
And guess what? It was a BIG LEAP forward. Missions were still tough but already clearly possible to do relatively safely. Scrambling was still nightmare of course but i was lucky. Soon this business became very lucrative and with each little improvement the missions were giving better and better reward-to-time ratio. Investment has returned in a matter of a few days.
When I was about 4M SP, missions were ... yes I dare to say that ... becoming easy in most cases. T2 cap rechargers together with CCC rigs brought cap recharge rate to 180s which enabled me to run the whole low rack (two large repairers and lots of active armor hardeners) permanently. When fitting proper mission-specific (T1) hardeners, I could afford to aggro a whole stage in most missions. T2 light drones made frigates a non-issue and large guns, which I finally found training time for helped with taking down BSs a little faster.
At this point I realized I can do those missions I already know from the large part AFK. No more warp outs! I even stopped worrying about scrambling to a large degree. Who cares about scrambling when tank holds?
My point? There is a good reason why low SP newbies are trying to get to BS and run L4 missions ASAP. That reason is ISK. L4s equals to lots of ISK, especially for newbie's measures.
I do NOT argue that perfectly skilled pilots are utterly more effective. What I claim is that you can comfortably run L4 missions with ~5M SP and that it's definitely worth it.
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