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FORD ESC0RT
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.06.26 00:58:00 -
[1]
Everyone knows there's a problem with speed in EVE, but which ships are the most overpowered when nanod? Here's my list:
nano-vagabond - 6km/sec 500 dps nano-ishtar - 5km/sec 475 dps - NO TRACKING ISSUES and can perma-run mwd nano-sacrilege - 4km/sec 500 dps - also no tracking problems nano-curse -3.5km/sec - 300 dps - no tracking issues and can drain a battleship cap in a few cycles... not overpowered? yeah right nano-huginn - 4km/sec 355 DPS and 40KM WEBS... wtf.
Most the gangs that field these ships have snake implants or a claymore pilot off grid so add another 2000m/sec to their total max speeds. Even if they remove POLYCARBONS these ships will still be imbalanced. What we really need is 85% 24km webs, remove polycarbons, and add a major stacking penality to all velocity hardwirings and implants. MWD weren't designed to avoid damage they were made to get in range. It doesn't matter if heavy missiles are boosted, nano is the new WCS. Imbalanced is when there are ships that can't be hit by guns, can't be hit by missiles, and never die because they can retreat like cowards at any time. If you can't stop them how do you kill them? Training for a rapier/huginn is not the asnwer.
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Tamia Clant
New Dawn Corp New Eden Research
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:01:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Tamia Clant on 26/06/2008 01:11:40 The vaga's supposed to go that fast (read its description) and IT CAN'T HIT TARGETS WHILE MWD'ING, the sac needs to get close to their targets fast or it's useless. As for the others I'm not sure if they need that much speed. The ishtar does seem broken as it can just release drones and keep orbitting at MWD speed while doing maximum damage.
Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Imbalanced is when there are ships that can't be hit by guns...
They can. Read this thread. All of it, not just the first post. (I'll even throw a few clues in, look for posts 25 and 73, among others)
Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
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Alvin Hobbes
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:01:00 -
[3]
Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Everyone knows there's a problem with speed in EVE, but which ships are the most overpowered when nanod? Here's my list:
nano-vagabond - 6km/sec 500 dps nano-ishtar - 5km/sec 475 dps - NO TRACKING ISSUES and can perma-run mwd nano-sacrilege - 4km/sec 500 dps - also no tracking problems nano-curse -3.5km/sec - 300 dps - no tracking issues and can drain a battleship cap in a few cycles... not overpowered? yeah right nano-huginn - 4km/sec 355 DPS and 40KM WEBS... wtf.
Most the gangs that field these ships have snake implants or a claymore pilot off grid so add another 2000m/sec to their total max speeds. Even if they remove POLYCARBONS these ships will still be imbalanced. What we really need is 85% 24km webs, remove polycarbons, and add a major stacking penality to all velocity hardwirings and implants. MWD weren't designed to avoid damage they were made to get in range. It doesn't matter if heavy missiles are boosted, nano is the new WCS. Imbalanced is when there are ships that can't be hit by guns, can't be hit by missiles, and never die because they can retreat like cowards at any time. If you can't stop them how do you kill them? Training for a rapier/huginn is not the asnwer.
Win. Letz DO IT.
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torn sage
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:03:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Tamia Clant The vaga's supposed to go that fast (read its description) and IT CAN'T HIT TARGETS WHILE MWD'ING, the sac needs to get close to their targets fast or it's useless. As for the others I'm not sure if they need that much speed. The ishtar does seem broken as it can just release drones and keep orbitting at MWD speed while doing maximum damage.
Sorry for being a noob but what pray tell is "MWD" speed and what exactly is the maneuver?
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Haakelen
Force d'action navale
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:09:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Haakelen on 26/06/2008 01:11:47 Edited by: Haakelen on 26/06/2008 01:09:16
Originally by: Tamia Clant The ishtar does seem broken as it can just release drones and keep orbitting at MWD speed while doing maximum damage.
The Ishtar is the slowest of the lot (3.7km/s or so with AC4/Nav 5/Polycarbs vs. 4km+ for Zealots/Sacs and around 6km/s for Vagas). You can shoot the drones quite easily. These are STRAIGHTLINE speeds. Not real-world orbit/manual path speeds.
Also: most people in nano gangs don't use claymores w/mindlinks and snakesets you ******* birth defect
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soldieroffortune 258
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:10:00 -
[6]
Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 26/06/2008 01:16:02 Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 26/06/2008 01:15:40 ^^^
MWD= Micro Warp Drive, consider them a Super Afterburner, you might be able to get up to 1200m/sec w/ afterburner, but as posted, up to something like 5km/sec w/ MWD (microwarpdrive)
EDIT: was talking about torn sages post
also, while MWD'ng, hitting targets can be difficult, me and a corp mate were experimenting w/ frigs, and i got an atron up to 1240m/sec, and wasnt hitting his freaking ship, even though i had him webbed down to like 70m/sec
i know i know (1200m/sec?!?! you noob!) was EXPERIMENTING
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Hexman
Black Plague. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:12:00 -
[7]
Originally by: FORD ESC0RT MWD weren't designed to avoid damage they were made to get in range.
and you know this....how?
First page in another fail nano whine thread
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Blind Man
Point Blank Carebears
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:15:00 -
[8]
3/10 ╟
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:20:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Haakelen You can shoot the drones quite easily.
As long as they can only damage and kill my drones. Oh wait.
Originally by: Haakelen
Also: most people in nano gangs don't use claymores w/mindlinks and snakesets
Gang bonuses are fairly common on roaming gangs. Implants are a bit more rare. There are some implants that increase speed and aren't high grade snakes.
Originally by: Haakelen
you ******* birth defect
I *love* how some turn to personal insults when they run out of reason. Its like the plastic bit that pops out of the turkey when its cooked. You know the argument is completed.
Originally by: Hexman
and you know this....how?
Cap penalty for one. The intent was for a module that could achieve speed in exchange for a high price.
What we have is a standard required fitting for 0.0 and most everywhere. I think most would be willing to remove a point from a fitting than pull the mwd. |
Haakelen
Force d'action navale
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:26:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Haakelen on 26/06/2008 01:28:31 Gang bonuses != mindlinnked Claymore with Skirmish Spec 5 / Command ships 5 / Warfarelink spec 5.
Zor's Hyper link and mid-level rogues != Snakes.
http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/haake/ishtar.jpg The real-world orbit velocity of the lower-tier nano HACs is lower than their straight-line speed. If you're going to sit here and try to tell me that inties aren't going to tackle that Ishtar and heavy missiles aren't going to hit it and make life interesting, then you're deluding yourself.
e: MWD are mandatory in 0.0 because of bubbles, don't be dense.
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Sir Hades
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:42:00 -
[11]
The real power of nanoships is not in the ships, the items, the rigs, or even the implants. The real power is between the monitor and keyboard. If you are not smart while flying a nanoship, you will die. A lot.
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agent apple
The Fifth Column
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:43:00 -
[12]
Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Training for a rapier/huginn is not the asnwer.
No learning how to play the game and not whining for a nerf or an A-Z guide of how to win every time your outsmarted by superior players is.
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Tortun Nahme
Umbra Synergy Final Retribution Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:44:00 -
[13]
man I wish I knew who kept turning out the whine alts, I'd send them isk
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Cailais
VITOC
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:45:00 -
[14]
Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Everyone knows there's a problem with speed in EVE, but which ships are the most overpowered when nanod? Here's my list:
nano-vagabond - 6km/sec 500 dps nano-ishtar - 5km/sec 475 dps - NO TRACKING ISSUES and can perma-run mwd nano-sacrilege - 4km/sec 500 dps - also no tracking problems nano-curse -3.5km/sec - 300 dps - no tracking issues and can drain a battleship cap in a few cycles... not overpowered? yeah right nano-huginn - 4km/sec 355 DPS and 40KM WEBS... wtf.
Most the gangs that field these ships have snake implants or a claymore pilot off grid so add another 2000m/sec to their total max speeds. Even if they remove POLYCARBONS these ships will still be imbalanced. What we really need is 85% 24km webs, remove polycarbons, and add a major stacking penality to all velocity hardwirings and implants. MWD weren't designed to avoid damage they were made to get in range. It doesn't matter if heavy missiles are boosted, nano is the new WCS. Imbalanced is when there are ships that can't be hit by guns, can't be hit by missiles, and never die because they can retreat like cowards at any time. If you can't stop them how do you kill them? Training for a rapier/huginn is not the asnwer.
Sure you can get a Curse to go nearly 3.5km/s provided you have all navigation skills to level 5 and fit 3 Overdrives and an internal nanofibre II. Fit an Apoc correctly and you can destroy the self same ship at + 250km range in two volleys. - I've personally been a victim to that so I think Im qualified to say 'it can be done'.
These 'overpowered' cruisers it should be pointed out are extremely vulnerable to each other - their role, their purpose, is to provide a screening escort for heavier ships like BC / BS. If you choose to fly a heavier ship (BC/BS) without a protective screen of cruisers and frigates then yes you will very likely die to a fast crusier gang.
If you remove fast crusiers then there is simply no requirement for them to be used and everyone will swap to Battleships. Which, I assume, is what you want. No?
C.
VITOC - Amarr Corp for Faction Warfare! |
Crackzilla
The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:48:00 -
[15]
Edited by: *****zilla on 26/06/2008 01:52:05
Originally by: Haakelen Gang bonuses != mindlinnked Claymore with Skirmish Spec 5 / Command ships 5 / Warfarelink spec 5.
Zor's Hyper link and mid-level rogues != Snakes.
Maxed command skills for speed isn't that common but still a problem. Even the garden variety lvl4 skills are a problem.
Yet even though they don't have the extreme speeds they're still a problem.
Originally by: Haakelen If you're going to sit here and try to tell me that inties aren't going to tackle that Ishtar and heavy missiles aren't going to hit it
Are you going to seriously tell me that a hac wouldn't stop orbiting when a ceptor is heading their way? Are you suggesting that we politely ask nano pilots to continue orbiting while we shoot them and web them using ceptors?
Originally by: Haakelen
e: MWD are mandatory in 0.0 because of bubbles, don't be dense.
MWD is mandatory in 0.0 just because. The first thing anyone is asked when in trouble: well, you've got a mwd, head towards the gate/station.
If you're in a bs and in trouble you'll use the mwd to try and get out of scram range. If you're pointed by something small and in a belt you'll use the mwd towards a belt and hope the ceptor hits a roid. If you're trying to travel you'll use the mwd to align. If you're heading to a pos you'll use the mwd to get safe. If you jump into a gate camp the mwd is used to head to the gate. If you warp to a station with hostiles you'll use the mwd to get to zero on the station. If someone is playing docking games you'll use the mwd to try and bump someone from the station.
What can a mwd not do?
Originally by: Cailais If you remove fast crusiers then there is simply no requirement for them to be used and everyone will swap to Battleships. Which, I assume, is what you want. No?
Ceptor gangs. Frig gangs. Even the assault frigs might have a role (well, maybe not). Battlecruisers would still be useable.
Eh, I remember flying large ceptor and frig gangs. They were great for popping large stuff. Then nanos became the rage. Not only could nanos put the hurt on large stuff, they'd decimate the small stuff.
Give us a reason to fly small stuff besides comedy (aka recent af BoB gang) or suicidal tackle/web.
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Haakelen
Force d'action navale
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Posted - 2008.06.26 01:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: *****zilla
Are you going to seriously tell me that a hac wouldn't stop orbiting when a ceptor is heading their way? Are you suggesting that we politely ask nano pilots to continue orbiting while we shoot them and web them using ceptors?
Okay, I give. You won't be able to catch a Zealot with a gankfitted Taranis. Nearly every other ceptor however, is going to catch up to everything except the highest of high end setups. On my Ishtar example, that speed is the straightline. Show me a real-world inty fitting that won't catch that. Will it die? Maybe. Inties die a lot, especially when there's not a proper gang behind them.
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COMMANDER KATHRYN
Federation Zone Operations Command
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Posted - 2008.06.26 02:05:00 -
[17]
The problem is that minmatar are fast as hell and they also are the ones with the Web bonuses, balance them and give ammar a bonus against there enemy swap the binuses give minni the neut/nos bonus and ammar the webber. No point in ammar neuting minmatar since they really arent all that dependent on cap. And lets face it ammar could use some lovin to slow down the faster than hell Minmatar.
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Crackzilla
The Shadow Order SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.26 02:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Haakelen Nearly every other ceptor however, is going to catch up to everything except the highest of high end setups. On my Ishtar example, that speed is the straightline.
Quite likely to die. The nano has a good chance.
The nano spots the ceptor, makes a gut check, breaks from the target and starts to head directly away from where the ceptor is approaching.
Nano locks target and calls the ceptor primary. If other nanos help the ceptor won't last long.
By heading away the relative speed between ceptor and nano has decreased. Also the ceptor isn't zigging and zagging. Now the ceptor has a very low traversal towards a ship that'll pop them quick.
Of course the ceptor can approach at an angle and only scram the nano. But that starts a long chase where the nanos lead the ceptors away from everything else then pop it.
Gotta get the web and that usually gets the ceptor popped. Then many ceptors aren't very effective because they're limited to 2 mid slots versus 3x mids.
Against a group you could put a bunch of ceptors on a nano and get a web. But then the rest of the nanos flee.
Non nanos must commit. Bubbles, scrams are more effective etc. If it goes south for a remote rep gang or a sniper gang its likely most will pop.
Nanos commit much less.
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Grath Telkin
Evolving Paradigms
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Posted - 2008.06.26 02:23:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Grath Telkin on 26/06/2008 02:24:04
Originally by: FORD ESC0RT I have no idea what im talking about. My numbers are all just random crap i made up to look like i might have a clue. However, in the end, much like my posting, I fail. Sorry. FE
Hi everybody, meet Ford. Ford is one of Gods special children.
You can show Ford he's wrong (as has been done in about 39 threads already this week) and it won't matter a bit, he just keeps chugging along.
Ford lives in Fordland, and likes to make sh*t up.
Pretty much all day.
And post it here.
Ford, as your community, and friends, we'd like you to get help....do it for the children Ford...
...do it for the children....
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Gewurtztraminer
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Posted - 2008.06.26 02:46:00 -
[20]
Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Everyone knows there's a problem with speed in EVE, but which ships are the most overpowered when nanod? Here's my list:
nano-vagabond - 6km/sec 500 dps nano-ishtar - 5km/sec 475 dps - NO TRACKING ISSUES and can perma-run mwd nano-sacrilege - 4km/sec 500 dps - also no tracking problems nano-curse -3.5km/sec - 300 dps - no tracking issues and can drain a battleship cap in a few cycles... not overpowered? yeah right nano-huginn - 4km/sec 355 DPS and 40KM WEBS... wtf.
Most the gangs that field these ships have snake implants or a claymore pilot off grid so add another 2000m/sec to their total max speeds. Even if they remove POLYCARBONS these ships will still be imbalanced. What we really need is 85% 24km webs, remove polycarbons, and add a major stacking penality to all velocity hardwirings and implants. MWD weren't designed to avoid damage they were made to get in range. It doesn't matter if heavy missiles are boosted, nano is the new WCS. Imbalanced is when there are ships that can't be hit by guns, can't be hit by missiles, and never die because they can retreat like cowards at any time. If you can't stop them how do you kill them? Training for a rapier/huginn is not the asnwer.
1. Train up your missile skills (my cruise can go nearly 8k/sec and I'm not done training projection yet) 2. See if your favorite setup can fit a missile velocity rig 3. Use on any of the above and watch them run away. There is no killing them without a decent web or a huginn.
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Haakelen
Force d'action navale
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Posted - 2008.06.26 02:48:00 -
[21]
Gewurtztraminer, you're looking at missile velocity, not explosion velocity. That affects the damage received by the ship, and cruises are rather low in that respect. Precision lights on the other hand hit just fine on 90% of the nano HACs in the game.
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Banana Torres
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.06.26 02:50:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tamia Clant the sac needs to get close to their targets fast or it's useless.
I fitteded heavy missile launchers in mine. I can hit hit u from over 70k now. Soon I will be out of range of a huginnnnnnn with dominationer webs on heat.
It still does ok damage too, I have even killed a dreadnothing with it.
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elorran
Department of Defence Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.26 02:59:00 -
[23]
Most over powered nano ship, the nano titan that aligns in less than 8 seconds. - - Department of Defence - Hydra Alliance |
Dianeces
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.06.26 03:03:00 -
[24]
Originally by: elorran Most over powered nano ship, the nano titan that aligns in less than 8 seconds.
So the one that doesn't exist?
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Mankirks Wife
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Posted - 2008.06.26 03:10:00 -
[25]
Posting in nanowhine thread #39191034004022, for no apparent reason other than it's late and I'm sleep deprived.
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Tai Paktu
Ataraxia.
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Posted - 2008.06.26 03:13:00 -
[26]
omg hai guyz. t3h nan0 ishtare! get itget itgetititigetittacklewebweb! i died to it's drones. i can't hit t3h ishtar! i wish there was someway i could make it not do damage to me but it's too fast
...
For those of you who missed that, kill the drones. They're in range. Web them. Ishtar using sentries? Burn out to them and kill them anyways.
Yeah, the Sac doesn't get nerfed by tracking either, but even maxed skilled HAMs only hit out to about 20km. Which means he's in heavy neut range. Don't have Heavy Neuts on your BS? Too bad, you didn't fit correctly for the engagement. Flying a BC or smaller? Then why are you surprised you're having difficulty killing a T2 ship that required months of training and costs upwards of 150mil? No offence, but WTS a clue folks.
As for the Vaga, it's supposed to go fast. Where are you getting this 500 dps, 6km/s Vaga? What guns are you using, what ammo, at what range? Cus I guarantee you no Vagabond will be fighting at optimal using Barrage or he'll be a dead Vagabond. If you're not using Barrage on a nano Vaga, well I don't know what you're doing tbh.
Expect to encounter nano-ships these days, expect to encounter Falcons and fit to counter. You can't fly around your super tanked Drake or with your tier 7 epic armour (or whatever it is you use) and expect to wtfpwn everything, that's not how it works.
I don't even know why I'm bothering bumping this thread by arguing but here I am. ______
http://eve-files.com/sig/TaiPaktu/sig3.PNG |
MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.06.26 03:19:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Tamia Clant Edited by: Tamia Clant on 26/06/2008 01:11:40 The vaga's supposed to go that fast (read its description) and IT CAN'T HIT TARGETS WHILE MWD'ING
But even EFT the end all of everything?
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.06.26 03:24:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Hexman
Originally by: FORD ESC0RT MWD weren't designed to avoid damage they were made to get in range.
and you know this....how?
First page in another fail nano whine thread
Theyn were actully if you robit in range it's not hard to hit because the higher your sig radius the easier it is for your ships computer to track the target and to hit it.
Thus using a MWD while in range of guns protects you less than an afterburner.
Thus Yes I'm saying an afterburner makes a nano harder to hit than a MWD. but I'm sure someone will kill me for letting the community know th is.
MWD on the other hand can get you OUT of range faster than an aftyerburner thus you take no damage because nothing can hit you.
also MWD is for tanking missles. the faster you are moving the lass damage you take.
SO next time you nano a tackler fit a MWD so you can get into range, but if your good fit an Afterburner.
really depends on what you're fighting.
AFterburner: better to avoid guns than MWD MWD:better at avoiding missles than afterburner better at getting the hell out
thus a MWD is better in almost every situation other than avoiding most damage. and it makes your tracking horrible because it doesn't incease the targets sig radius at all.
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MotherMoon
Huang Yinglong
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Posted - 2008.06.26 03:26:00 -
[29]
Edited by: MotherMoon on 26/06/2008 03:27:53
Originally by: COMMANDER KATHRYN The problem is that minmatar are fast as hell and they also are the ones with the Web bonuses, balance them and give ammar a bonus against there enemy swap the binuses give minni the neut/nos bonus and ammar the webber. No point in ammar neuting minmatar since they really arent all that dependent on cap. And lets face it ammar could use some lovin to slow down the faster than hell Minmatar.
not like the ammar nuet boats can ignore tracking and drain a nano ship killing it's MWD in 1 second... oh wait.
also these nano ships would get locks in about .2 seconds so they will all die to a curse and it's instant anti nano weapons of doom.
also the pilgrim can clock and uncloak on top of one by watching the battle.
EDIT: OMG three post in a row? damn maybe I should take the extra time to post it all in one post :/
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Grimpak
Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.06.26 03:37:00 -
[30]
Originally by: FORD ESC0RT nano-vagabond - 6km/sec 500 dps
needs to be at web range to do that kind of damage
Originally by: FORD ESC0RT nano-ishtar - 5km/sec 475 dps - NO TRACKING ISSUES and can perma-run mwd
you can kill the drones, you know?
Originally by: FORD ESC0RT nano-sacrilege - 4km/sec 500 dps - also no tracking problems
to do that damage it needs to be at heavy neutralizer range, and even if it shoots without cap, it can't mwd without cap, and nano-ships are renowed for their superior armor tanking capabilities....
Originally by: FORD ESC0RT nano-curse -3.5km/sec - 300 dps - no tracking issues and can drain a battleship cap in a few cycles... not overpowered? yeah right
gosh darn... I would like to meet such overpowered ship in my huginn with my mates. I'm sure we would enjoy the loot dropped by them.
Originally by: FORD ESC0RT nano-huginn - 4km/sec 355 DPS and 40KM WEBS... wtf.
OMG IT CAN WEB AT 40KM RANGE AND DO.... what dps?
Originally by: FORD ESC0RT Training for a rapier/huginn is not the asnwer.
of course not.
using the brain is. ---
Quote: The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.
ain't that right. |
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