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Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
4
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Posted - 2012.03.14 02:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
This resource is a list of currently active MD borrowers and their credit ratings based on past history. The aim of this resource is to educate potential lenders of the bond market's current state.
Rather than assessing a borrower's credit rating using a speculative system, the credit rating is merely the maximum, uncollateralized, public ISK debt that the borrower has been trusted with at one time in the past. Collateralized loans have not been compiled as they do not require the same burden of faith on the borrower; however, third parties of collateral loans have been compiled as they require a burden of faith.
Suggestions for further edits (particularly corrections and additions) are fully welcomed to help grow this list for as long as it may be updated. Relevant discussion of the bond market is also welcomed and encouraged.
- Grendell - 350 Billion (3rd Party 1: 175b), (3rd Party 2: 225b), (3rd Party 3: 100b), (3rd Party 4: 120b), (3rd Party 5: 350b)
- Chribba - 100 Billion (3rd Party 1: 100b), (3rd Party 2: 50b)
- Liberty Eternal - 35 Billion (Bond 1: 750m), (Bond 2: 1b), (Bond 3: 2b), (Bond 4: 4b), (Bond 5: 15b), (Bond 6: 35b), (Bond 7: 20b)
- Kethas Protagonist - 30 Billion (Bond 1: 3.1b), (Bond 2: 6.7b), (Bond 3: 5b), (Bond 4: 20b), (Bond 5: 30b)
- Proton Power - 25 Billion (IPO 1: 69b), (IPO 2: 49b), (Bond 1: 25b), (Bond 2: 10b)
- DJ Blackman - 20 Billion (Bond 1: 500m), (Bond 2: 2b), (Bond 3: 3b), (Bond 4: 5b), (Bond 5: 12b), (Bond 6: 20b)
- Lord Wickham - 20 Billion (Andarius Trading Corp.
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Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
4
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Posted - 2012.03.14 02:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
Special thanks to VV, who was kind enough to provide names of several currently active and well-respected MD members at my request. That sparked the idea for this more quantifiable list of currently active MD borrowers.
Past data on MD Bond Markets may be found here: History of MD #1, History of MD #2, History of MD #3, History of MD #4, History of MD #5
Disclaimer: This list is not an endorsement of any borrower no matter how high their credit rating. Lenders invest at their own risk. Andarius Trading Corp. |
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
4
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Posted - 2012.03.14 02:11:00 -
[3] - Quote
Reserved Andarius Trading Corp. |
Darth Tickles
Northstar Cabal Fatal Ascension
52
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Posted - 2012.03.14 11:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
I also have a stellar credit rating with my own alts.
This is a valuable service, and not dressed up horse-****. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
390
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Posted - 2012.03.14 11:47:00 -
[5] - Quote
So you also added 3rd party / collateral in the list?
Because I have secured >> 100B myself. > 100B just in the charity. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Lecherito
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.03.14 12:41:00 -
[6] - Quote
This thread shocks the conscience; consider deleting.
Best,
-L |
Magnu Stormhawk
Stormhawk Enterprises
12
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Posted - 2012.03.14 13:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
Addition:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=12052&find=unread
Also, whilst it is a useful resource in general, i'm not sure commenting on credit rating is really appropriate, especially if all you are taking is the maximum someone has been trusted with 'at one point in time'. It could be misleading. I would at least, by way of a disclaimer, encourage lenders reading this thread to review those offerings linked (which they should do anyway) for further details. Either that or dont talk about credit ratings at all.
For example - you have Liberty Eternal listed there right after Chribba and Grendell, purely because of the size of his bond. That 35b bond could be argued to be a failed bond, it was subject to an forced restructure on the part of the borrower, and it came under heavy criticism. That is more important to a credit rating than the size of the bond.
Also I note you have Proton Power listed with the 69b IPO, but only 25b stated as the max borrowing.
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Proton Power
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
0
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Posted - 2012.03.14 13:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
Your numbers are off some. I think my last IPO was about 70bil as mentioned above, I have also had many other IPO's/Bonds, some recorded some not.
I have also been trusted with over 500bil isk in unlocked, no collateral T2 BPO's. You are correct in that I currently hold 25bil Isk though via private bonds @ 2.5% per month. |
TomHorn
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
41
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Posted - 2012.03.14 13:56:00 -
[9] - Quote
Think this could be useful resource for people thinking of investing in someone. I wouldnt mind be added to the list.
Ive run a 3.5 billion isk bond no collaterall for 3months at 3% bond started on the old forums and finished on the new ones
http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1545715 start bond
http://eve-search.com/thread/17416-1/page/1#3 Finish
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Kara Roideater
Perkone Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2012.03.14 14:12:00 -
[10] - Quote
Some of the posters above have mentioned collateral holding and access to unsecured isk but any of this that takes place privately can't really be logged usefully as it lacks confirmation. However, if you are interested in public data you should add in any publicly logged collateral holding that took place while public debt was also held if you want to get the maximum publicly reported amount that each individual has held at any one time without scamming.
Regardless of this, your figures for me (RAW23) are a bit off. The 20bil bond you list also publicly tracks a further 20bil unsecured loan running at the same time (see post 71, see also the audit VV did which confirms 40bil of outstanding debt). Whilst that bond ran I also acted as third-party holding the collateral for another bond that started in December 2010 (c. 15bil iirc). I can't remember the guy's name but I'm sure you could find it if you want. My max publicly tracked exposure, then, was in the region of 55bil (and I also held an additional c. 15bil off the boards but this can't really be counted, nor the access to 50bil more of other peoples' assets in a cooperatively run business, although the latter could probably be confirmed by VV who audited me at that time).
I also ran another 40bil bond back in early 2010 (started at c. 25bil and then had an expansion phase), initially for an insurance fraud battleship destruction business when that was still viable, before diversifying into a bunch of other stuff. That came between the second and third bonds you list.
The 10bil bond you list also increased to 20bil in c. Dec. 2009 when flakeys offered me an extra 10bil unsecured. |
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Kara Roideater
Perkone Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2012.03.14 14:15:00 -
[11] - Quote
Magnu Stormhawk wrote:
Also, whilst it is a useful resource in general, i'm not sure commenting on credit rating is really appropriate, especially if all you are taking is the maximum someone has been trusted with 'at one point in time'.
I would also strongly agree with this. Having a resource of max previous exposure is very useful for lenders but it should be presented as an information resource and not as a credit rating resource.
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Kara Roideater
Perkone Caldari State
25
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Posted - 2012.03.14 14:26:00 -
[12] - Quote
Additional people to add:
Tornsoul: 100bil continuously running in BMBE for years (ongoing) plus some big additional BMBE bonds in 2010 (totaling another c. 150-200bil iirc). When I asked at the time about maximum previous public exposure I believe the figure given was c. 310bil as, in addition to the 100bil in BMBE she had held three Titans for the aborted triple Titan lottery.
I suspect Shar Tegral has also done some public collateral holding recently, so she may be worth looking up.
VV on the c. 100bil held in the plex for good drive is publicly tracked but may be a little problematic as CCP had an anti-scam policy on plex for good which might have made theft difficult or impossible. However, I can say that I've offered VV 100bil unsecured a few times.
You might also want to say something about Block's mineral business but since it has no transparency it is impossible to know whether the claimed figures are accurate. I think, if you go back through some of his threads, he may have eventually stated what percentage of the company was owned by the directors (and thus should not be counted as public isk) but I'm not sure how much luck you'll have coming to a reasonable figure on that business. I spent months trying to get to precisely the figure you're after but it was like trying to squeeze blood out of a stone.
Edwin Rothbard has held quite a bit too (I forget how much but check his thread). |
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited Superior Eve Engineering
67
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Posted - 2012.03.14 14:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
Just a heads up, but 4-5 overlapped together so it would actually be 470b if you added both 4 and 5.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
390
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Posted - 2012.03.14 16:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
Kara Roideater wrote:However, I can say that I've offered VV 100bil unsecured a few times.
I think I am the first and only EvE player who did not immediately accept being handed 100B unsecured. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
535
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Posted - 2012.03.14 17:23:00 -
[15] - Quote
FYI. Proton Power market aliases:
* Chris Smith * eVaLF * Aandaan, but this character was returned to the original owner about 3 years ago.
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Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
4
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Posted - 2012.03.14 19:45:00 -
[16] - Quote
Thank you for all of the positive feedback! Many of you pointed out that, even with the defining of GÇ£credit rating,GÇ¥ it might be too misleading, so I decided to omit the use of credit rating entirely.
RAW23 wrote:Some of the posters above have mentioned collateral holding and access to unsecured isk but any of this that takes place privately can't really be logged usefully as it lacks confirmation.
This is really informing the limitations on how far I want to go in compiling this list. For instance, while we all trust that Chribba has held much greater amounts than those I have listed in private third party transactions, most people are not going to believe other unknown parties on their word that they have held private investments. Since only public investments can be accurately and easily verified, Chribba and everyone else that is listed is going to be limited to publicly verifiable bonds and trusts.
Also, if you have suggestions for additions, please provide me with links to the additions. It really cuts down on the time that I have to go searching around for the additions of which you already know the location. (I am currently working on searching through EVE forums archives and compiling Vaerah Vahrokha's trusts).
Edit 1.1 - Changed title language from GÇ£MD Borrower Credit RatingsGÇ¥ to GÇ£Borrowers and Trustees of MD GÇô A Resource for Investors.GÇ¥ - Changed language in description away from GÇ£credit ratings.GÇ¥ - Changed language from GÇ£3rd PartyGÇ¥ to GÇ£Trustee.GÇ¥ - Added aliases for Proton Power and RAW23. - Corrected Proton Power's maximum, uncollateralized ISK debt from GÇ£25bGÇ¥ to GÇ£69b.GÇ¥ - Corrected Grendell's maximum, uncollateralized ISK debt from GÇ£350bGÇ¥ to GÇ£470b.GÇ¥ - Corrected RAW23's maximum, uncollateralized ISK debt from GÇ£20bGÇ¥ to GÇ£40b." - Corrected two of RAW23's bond numbers due to further investments from flakeys that were originally missed. - Added Mickov brat. - Added TomHorn. - Added TornSoul. - Added Edwin Rothbard. Andarius Trading Corp. |
Tekota
The Freighter Factory
194
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Posted - 2012.03.14 20:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
Confirming I thrusted Raw23 for 1.3b as a collateral holder a while back. Which in the grand scheme of thread so far is rather small fry I know.
Ms Hellfury wins the prize for best "gief isk naow" post netting (and returning) three billion iskicles for much "thrust you long time" rep. |
Liberty Eternal
Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness
25
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Posted - 2012.03.14 21:34:00 -
[18] - Quote
Interesting list, thanks Jake
Magnu Stormhawk wrote:
For example - you have Liberty Eternal listed there right after Chribba and Grendell, purely because of the size of his bond. That 35b bond could be argued to be a failed bond, it was subject to an forced restructure on the part of the borrower, and it came under heavy criticism. That is more important to a credit rating than the size of the bond.
Yep, very true and in retrospect I realise I deserved the criticism. However, without digressing from the thread please allow me to point out that the early closure [while flawed] did contain a compensation offer for full interest, although it wasn't taken up.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
391
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Posted - 2012.03.14 21:34:00 -
[19] - Quote
Kara Roideater wrote: VV on the c. 100bil held in the plex for good drive is publicly tracked but may be a little problematic as CCP had an anti-scam policy on plex for good which might have made theft difficult or impossible.
Actually it's extremely easy to scam it without being caught. It's why I posted a video of me NOT scamming it. I won't say more else dishonest minds could be tempted.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
5
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Posted - 2012.03.17 19:16:00 -
[20] - Quote
Version 1.2 - Added Vaerah Vahrokha - Added Lauren Hellfury - Added RAW23's Trust 1: 1.3b Andarius Trading Corp. |
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Kara Roideater
Perkone Caldari State
32
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Posted - 2012.03.18 12:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
My third bond (http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1266123&page=1#28). This one went through a number of permutations so is difficult to follow linearly from p. 1 due to edits but had a maximum liability of 38.4bil.
Here's a 16bil bond I secured last year (http://eve-search.com/thread/1554873-0/page/1#30) which I don't think overlapped with any of my bond.
Here's an earlier 15.5bil bond I secured (http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1433700&page=1#1) which did overlap with my last bond.
A couple of other notes (btw, I think this is a very worthwhile project, especially if you stick with it and don't get burned out by keeping it updated):
TornSoul's max expsoure needs a 100bil added to it. The bonds you note were for BMBE and were temporary but BMBE itself is a publicly owned corp with 100bil of startup capital (iirc). So, TornSoul is always in possession of that original 100bil of public money in addition to the extras. I couldn't find a link to the original thread (I believe BMBE has been running for somewhere in the region of 5-7 years now) but she posts a financial report on MD each month which may lead you back to the origins.
In general, how far back do you want to go with data for this? I have a document that has almost all the bonds from Oct 2009-Oct 2010 that I could send you but your time might be better spent dredging the last 12 months (then we could pool our data and get a nice view of over 2 years of activity). |
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
7
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Posted - 2012.03.18 18:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
RAW23 wrote:My third bond (http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1266123&page=1#28). This one went through a number of permutations so is difficult to follow linearly from p. 1 due to edits but had a maximum liability of 38.4bil.
So would that be your fourth bond? I think I already have three of your bonds on the record so far.
RAW23 wrote:Here's a 16bil bond I secured last year (http://eve-search.com/thread/1554873-0/page/1#30) which I don't think overlapped with any of my bond.
Here's an earlier 15.5bil bond I secured (http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1433700&page=1#1) which did overlap with my last bond.
Thanks! I will add these when I do the next update. I have been trying to stagger the timing of updates a bit to give people time to contribute and also cut down on how often I have to compile.
Quote:TornSoul's max expsoure needs a 100bil added to it. The bonds you note were for BMBE and were temporary but BMBE itself is a publicly owned corp with 100bil of startup capital (iirc). So, TornSoul is always in possession of that original 100bil of public money in addition to the extras. I couldn't find a link to the original thread (I believe BMBE has been running for somewhere in the region of 5-7 years now) but she posts a financial report on MD each month which may lead you back to the origins.
I found these two threads (IPO #1 and IPO #2). You were correct, 100 billion in all was raised as startup capital.
Quote:In general, how far back do you want to go with data for this? I have a document that has almost all the bonds from Oct 2009-Oct 2010 that I could send you but your time might be better spent dredging the last 12 months (then we could pool our data and get a nice view of over 2 years of activity).
That is a very good question. My original idea was to record all currently active MD borrowers and trustees and their full histories. The list I have right now is the extent to which I have researched through the old forums. My hope in publishing this list so far was to offset the workload. Now anyone could give me additions and corrects (hopefully with links). My plan is to keep updating for however long I am active in EVE, so long as I continue to get other posters finding content for me to add. Andarius Trading Corp. |
Breaker77
Reclamation Industries
51
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Posted - 2012.03.18 21:22:00 -
[23] - Quote
Here is a link to a very old (June 2009) document
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=rv6wUUbaRuqM0OehgHa17dQ&output=html
I still find it rather funny that both banks are gone, and 6 offers on the low risk turned out to be ran by scamers (Cosmoray, and Bad Bobby).
In addition, while I have no outstanding offers of my own, I was a 3rd party collateral holder and auditor for a significant length of time.
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TornSoul
BIG Gentlemen's Agreement
62
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Posted - 2012.03.18 22:24:00 -
[24] - Quote
Jake Andarius wrote:Quote:TornSoul's max expsoure needs a 100bil added to it. The bonds you note were for BMBE and were temporary but BMBE itself is a publicly owned corp with 100bil of startup capital (iirc). So, TornSoul is always in possession of that original 100bil of public money in addition to the extras. I couldn't find a link to the original thread (I believe BMBE has been running for somewhere in the region of 5-7 years now) but she posts a financial report on MD each month which may lead you back to the origins.
I found these two threads ( IPO #1 and IPO #2). You were correct, 100 billion in all was raised as startup capital.
To total value of BMBE today is 220B+ ISK though - Which all belongs to the shareholders.
We did this exercise some time ago as well, you might want to try and search for that thread for more info. If I recall my figure of max total simultaneous liabilities back then was around 500B or so (don't think I've exceeded that since). This included BIG Lottery (anniversary round 100B++++), BMBE, titan lottery, BIG Deal, various bonds.
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Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
8
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Posted - 2012.03.19 03:27:00 -
[25] - Quote
TornSoul wrote:This included BIG Lottery (anniversary round 100B++++), BMBE, titan lottery, BIG Deal, various bonds.
I have been debating compiling Chribba's lotteries and your lotteries. I think they actually fit all the requirements of being included in this list (active trustee, uncollateralized ISK debt). The only problem is, it would be a massive undertaking to compile all the links to the individual lotteries. I think I will put that on the backburner for a bit. I might summon up the energy one of these days, or some alternative idea on how to proceed might come to me.
Quote:We did this exercise some time ago as well, you might want to try and search for that thread for more info. If I recall my figure of max total simultaneous liabilities back then was around 500B or so (don't think I've exceeded that since).
Do you have any idea what time period that post would fall under? It would make searching for it a lot easier. Andarius Trading Corp. |
TornSoul
BIG Gentlemen's Agreement
62
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Posted - 2012.03.19 20:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
Jake Andarius wrote: The only problem is, it would be a massive undertaking to compile all the links to the individual lotteries. I think I will put that on the backburner for a bit. I might summon up the energy one of these days, or some alternative idea on how to proceed might come to me.
Dunno about Chribba, but with the BIG Lottery it's fairly easy - Ignore anything but the yearly Anniversary rounds :-) Those are the only 100B+ rounds.
Jake Andarius wrote: Do you have any idea what time period that post would fall under? It would make searching for it a lot easier.
ugh.. 2-3(4?) years ago... Doesn't help much I know... Maybe search on my name in the MD forum... and then only on posts not made by me. Should narrow it down quite a good bit.
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Kara Roideater
Perkone Caldari State
35
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Posted - 2012.03.19 20:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
TornSoul wrote:Jake Andarius wrote: The only problem is, it would be a massive undertaking to compile all the links to the individual lotteries. I think I will put that on the backburner for a bit. I might summon up the energy one of these days, or some alternative idea on how to proceed might come to me.
Dunno about Chribba, but with the BIG Lottery it's fairly easy - Ignore anything but the yearly Anniversary rounds :-) Those are the only 100B+ rounds. Jake Andarius wrote: Do you have any idea what time period that post would fall under? It would make searching for it a lot easier.
ugh.. 2-3(4?) years ago... Doesn't help much I know... Maybe search on my name in the MD forum... and then only on posts not made by me. Should narrow it down quite a good bit.
c. 18 months to 2 years ago. The answer was a reply to a question I asked on my main. It may have been in the last big BMBE bond thread or possibly the nearest BMBE monthly report to that (for some reason my memory is saying monthly report).
Another interesting question this raises is how to count IPOs as opposed to bonds (although it also has a minimal knockon effect for bonds too). Do you count as 'isk entrusted' just the initial investment in BMBE or the current value. Personally, I would incline towards the former as the isk growth has been worked for rather than potentially scammed and the later figure would involve scammed from investors + made for investors Basically, I would suggest counting only the isk that is taken out of the investors hands (it will also simplify valuing IPOs, some of which are rather opaque). |
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
11
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Posted - 2012.03.19 21:07:00 -
[28] - Quote
Kara Roideater wrote:Another interesting question this raises is how to count IPOs as opposed to bonds (although it also has a minimal knockon effect for bonds too). Do you count as 'isk entrusted' just the initial investment in BMBE or the current value. Personally, I would incline towards the former as the isk growth has been worked for rather than potentially scammed and the later figure would involve scammed from investors + made for investors Basically, I would suggest counting only the isk that is taken out of the investors hands (it will also simplify valuing IPOs, some of which are rather opaque).
I was wondering this exact same thing myself. I tend to agree with you. It seems a bit more fair to only count the face value of IPOs, but it does come at the expense of not really giving full credit to people like TornSoul who have literally worked years on a successful IPO. It is a trade-off. The additional advantage is that the original face value is easily publicly verified, and that is one of the general principles I have when it comes to compiling a list like this. Andarius Trading Corp. |
Kara Roideater
Perkone Caldari State
36
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Posted - 2012.03.19 21:19:00 -
[29] - Quote
Jake Andarius wrote: It seems a bit more fair to only count the face value of IPOs, but it does come at the expense of not really giving full credit to people like TornSoul who have literally worked years on a successful IPO. It is a trade-off.
I think the place to quantify that credit is in a different metric, reporting amounts paid out or earned on investments. You can get that quite easily by multiplying bond lengths by interest rates and for IPOs, more problematically, by counting up dividends and increase in share value. I ran these figures a little while ago for the one year sample of data I had and there were few real surprises (a few people who ran bonds with ridiculously high rates were further up the list than you would expect on the basis of their bond size x length). It's pretty easy to guestimate the relative outputs though so your time is better spent, I think, on gathering the more fundamental info.
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TornSoul
BIG Gentlemen's Agreement
62
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Posted - 2012.03.19 21:50:00 -
[30] - Quote
KISS would be my advice.
Once you start trying to "cover just a bit more" it turns in to a minefield.
So initial IPO amount - Fine by me (as long as it's stated)
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