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Author	Topic
Shirley Serious Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.07.03 05:20:00 - [1] Is there such a thing as a formal marriage in the Empire? Is polygyny or polyandry allowed? What about same-sex marriages? Or mixed bloodline marriages? And what about relationships? Is it a case of anything being acceptable so long as it is in private? E.g. if a True Amarr woman were to say "I had relations with a Khanid woman who is not my wife", how many sins would she have committed?
Mithfindel Gallente Argent Group	Posted - 2008.07.03 07:21:00 - [2] I would assume that many things are of the "don't ask, don't tell" kind. I would assume that they have the one husband, one wife type marriages, though specially on the case of the higher class, concubines are likely, though not kept in public. The True Amarr and Udorian bloodlines have largerly mixed, but I'd expect that books are kept on who's descended on what ethnic group. Since it's a feudal community, I do think that the families of nobles and wealthier commoners use marriage as a political tool, much like medeival ages or perhaps more accurately renaissance. There is a mention of a heir apparent to a heir having a Starkmanir tribe mistress (and of all the royal houses, he was a religous Ardishapur). So I guess that as long as it's kept out of eyes of the public, it's ok. At least as long as it doesn't hurt the relations of your family and your other half's family, in which case your Holder might have a few choice words about messing with his/her politics. Also, angering more influential Holders might get you enslaved, even if you're a True Amarr Holder yourself.
Laerise Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.04 00:32:00 - [3] "Love, what does love have to do with marriage?"
Garion Avarr Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.	Posted - 2008.07.04 04:15:00 - [4] Originally by: Laerise "Love, what does love have to do with marriage?" That's my opinion on the Amarr and marriage. Marriage being about love and romance is a notion that has only come about in the past two centuries or so, and even still is a rather 'Western' idea. The Amarr, I think, not of the sort to get love and marriage confused. They have socially acceptable marriages between couples of the same race (or between True Amarr and Udorian, perhaps, but I think anything beyond that would stretch what is socially acceptable), and then have affairs with others. And so long as they don't make a big noise about the affairs, I believe that the Amarr would see nothing wrong with it, and would indeed thinki it very normal -- I am of the opinion that they are very much "don't ask, don't tell" -- don't talk about or display any kind of sexuality in public, because sex is a private thing, but in private, you can do anyhing you like with anyone you like. The Amarr, in my opinion, might as well have invented the saying "sex is private, marriage is public." I don't think they have any really strong sexual taboos aside from the very strong one of 'keep it private' (well, there probably is an incest taboo of some sort, since that's as close to a universal taboo as exists -- of course, it's also the most universally broken taboo, and how strong itis and what it covers varies greatly). But when it comes to marriage, I imagine that things are very traditional and formal, one man, one woman, same race. Ideally same general social level, but exceptions could be made for a poor holder to marry a rich commonor and such. Among the rich and the holders, I imagine most marriages are very politically motivated. Among the lower classes, there might be less concious social/political motivations for specific marriages, but that has generally been the whole point of any marriage throughout human history, just not always on quite the level of allying one nation to another or something like that. You marry the person that will be a benefit to you and your family, and then you go have sex with the person you love. I think the Amarr take that as being the accepted way of things. So as for how many sins this Khanid would have committed, I would say one: she talked about it in public (or otherwise put it on public display), the worst sin among the Amarr when it comes to sex, I think. Of course, the above is just my opinion, based partially upon my general reading of Amarr culture and some small knowledge of anthropology, and also based upon what I've read of some of the opinions of PIE leaders on Amarrian culture, whom I respect as one of the best sources of opinions on Amarr culture. Because for a lot of it -- most of it, really -- that's all we have, opinions. But some pretty interesting ones, and I rather like these ideas (and would be at least mildly upset if CCP said otherwise. This makes Amarrian culture potentially very cool and not all boring sterotypes). ________________________________ This is not a signature.
Nicoletta Mithra Amarr Aretaic Turn	Posted - 2008.07.04 23:07:00 - [5] Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra on 04/07/2008 23:07:49 You might be interested in this and this link. Some of your questions might be answered there. Now my opinion on this: While I think that monogamy is the most common form of a marriage, we can't be sure. Similarly, the fact that the Amarr society puts great value on 'decorum' doesn't necessarily mean that no affection at all can be shown in public - though I generally tend to agree with the 'sex is private, marriage is public' line. A chaste kiss, holding hands or a hug might be admissible, depending on the exact circumstances. Nor does it necessarily mean that same-sex relationships or marriages are generally frowned upon. It might very well be the case that such a relationship is accepted to not conflict with decorum. In pre-modern China for example - and this is a society putting much value on 'face' - male-male marriages were quite normal in some provinces. Pederasty had it's place in ancient Greek and Rome and had in a chaste form even an important role in the Spartan polis, where it was practiced by the Spartiates as an educational device. Pederasty was also known in the mediaeval Islamic civilization where pederastic relations were so readily accepted in upper-class circles that there was often little or no effort to conceal their existence. It's not difficult to imagine the female versions in a emancipated society. I'd imagine that there are differences from heirdom to heirdom and maybe even on a smaller scale (e.g. regions, planetary). I'd guess the same is true for interracial relationships and marriages. A Tash-Murkonese might have no problems with it at all, while someone hailing from the Ardishapur heirdom might have an heart attack if he only hears 'interracial'. And the heir of Kador seems to have - though considered a taint - no grave problem with more or less publicly having a Gallentean lover. And why not assume that some holders follow him in this? In summary, I think the background of the Empire allows for a rich range of customs and that's a boon as well as a bane. Having a general line (I would consider this line to be what Gaven Lok'ri and Garion Avarr have outlined here.) is good, but it shouldn't constrain more than necessary. Hope that helps.
Shirley Serious Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.07.05 19:56:00 - [6] Thanks everyone. You were most helpful. I was just trying to figure out some of the things said in the "Intergalactic Summit" A couple of people objected to someone else, and I was wondering what their objections were based on, whether it was religiously based, or just that it was in public and flagrant. As well as people usually making the assumption that Amarr = (Roman Catholic) Christianity in it's views of things.
Garion Avarr Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.	Posted - 2008.07.07 00:30:00 - [7] Originally by: Shirley Serious A couple of people objected to someone else, and I was wondering what their objections were based on, whether it was religiously based, or just that it was in public and flagrant. Keep in mind, of course, that other Amarr RPers may have other opinions. . . . Originally by: Shirley Serious As well as people usually making the assumption that Amarr = (Roman Catholic) Christianity in it's views of things. shivers with horror I hate it when people do that. But to be fair, I probably based a lot of my idea of the Amarr off of that when I first started . . . have mercy, I didn't know any better! I've learned, though. Regarding homosexuality, I don't see any reason why the Amarr wouldn't accept homosexual relationships that lived up to the same standards of public decorum as were expected from hetrosexual ones. As Nicoletta says, it has been openly accepted in a number of historical cultures (and I understand that female/female relationships were accepted as well in many of those cultures, though I don't know that they were ever looked up to the way male/male relationships were, which sometimes had special status). However, I am not sure they would accept same-sex marriages -- as far as I understand the Amarr, the notion of building a family, a family that will endure for generations and grow and become powerful. There are ways that this could be done even in same-sex pairings, but it does make it a little more complex, and while same-sex pairs of animals will manage to raise young together (female pairs sometimes get a male to mate and then drive him away, male pairs will steal eggs to raise), showing that is actually is quite natural for same-sex pairs to raise children and have families, human same-sex pairs that wish to do so often encounter resistence from society. Perhaps it is accepted in some areas among the Amarr, but it seems more likely that it would not be. Just plain having a publically known relationship would probably be fine, though one might be expected to start a family at some point. Incidentially, that would also be at least part of the reason interracial marriages are unlikely (but acceptable to some). While all the races can probably have children together just fine . . . the idea of them doing that doesn't seem like something the Amarr would do. So starting a family with someone of another race would be frowned upon by all except the more liberal Amarrians . . . but as long as you did't talk much about it, just having a relationship would be fine to all except the more conservative Amarrians . . . though a Minmatar or Gallente might be viewed as a bad influence, especially for anyone important . . . if you're just a commonor, the 'bad influence' part probably isn't important, as long as you marry an Amarrian, you can keep your relationship with whomever. In my opinion, at least. Glad we could help, and as Nicoletta says, it is both a blessing and a curse that the Empire's background allows for there to be an extremely wide range of cultural norms. And, of course, we're always learning more as CCP publishes new stuff and as we collect PF that wasn't easily accessable and post it. As we discuss things, too, our opinions on the Amarr culture develop and change -- sometimes someone has an insight we would never have thought of that makes us see things in a new light. It's really quite fun. ________________________________ This is not a signature.
Vreena Caldari Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu Celestial Imperative	Posted - 2008.07.07 01:30:00 - [8] From the Khumak Chronicle: Quote: Involuntary, his mind drifted to the little hiding place he had down in the city, to the lithe and winsome creature he whispered words of passion and affection to during lovemaking. His family and friends would be appalled if they knew of his dark-skinned Starkmanir girl, with her almond eyes and her smile that was coy and bold at the same time. With sudden realization, Idonis knew that that part of his life was over. He was a Royal Heir, now. Already he felt the weight of a thousand generations of Ardishapurs on his shoulders; the burden of the millions of subjects now looking to him for support and guidance. The idyllic lifestyle he had enjoyed here on the outskirts of Empire was gone. Like great stones grinding, he could feel his priorities shift. He felt at once elevated and apprehensive. He straightened his back and narrowed his gaze. Zoriac, looking at his friend, took half a step back, and Idonis saw that he understood. I really liked the view taken on the Amarr so far, but was curious as to people's opinions of this as it crept into my memory. Is it just a holder that would have a problem with such a relationship? Or is it just because the girl is Minmatar that there would be a scandle? Or is the taboo there because of views held by the Ardishapur? My opinion was it was because the girl was Minmatar that there would be a problem, but I still want to hear others' take on it. ----- The above does not reflect the views and/or opinions of my corporation or alliance...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay?
Garion Avarr Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.	Posted - 2008.07.07 02:36:00 - [9] Edited by: Garion Avarr on 07/07/2008 02:36:52 Originally by: Vreena Is it just a holder that would have a problem with such a relationship? Or is it just because the girl is Minmatar that there would be a scandle? Or is the taboo there because of views held by the Ardishapur? My opinion was it was because the girl was Minmatar that there would be a problem, but I still want to hear others' take on it. I'd say a combo of the last two -- being a holder might make it worse, though that would probably make public scandel worse more than private scandel. But probably the last two -- Ardishapur are supposed to be the most conservative from what I understand, so that would make things much worse than otherwise. Unrelated to that, but related to relationships, I should mention the Amarrian Kaoli (ref). It's not marriage, but does provide an interesting example of a formalized relationship that exists in Amarr society -- one that I'm not sure we have a good analog for in today's world. ________________________________ This is not a signature.
Ka'el Devwik The Archaeological Squirrel Society	Posted - 2008.07.07 18:08:00 - [10] Originally by: Shirley Serious E.g. if a True Amarr woman were to say "I had relations with a Khanid woman who is not my wife", how many sins would she have committed? None, if she repents for her sins. Originally by: Reven Cordelle Failing that. Equip : Balls and ask her if she wants to hang out

Nicoletta Mithra Amarr Aretaic Turn	Posted - 2008.07.08 22:48:00 - [11] Originally by: Vreena I really liked the view taken on the Amarr so far, but was curious as to people's opinions of this as it crept into my memory. I actually think that the main point was the murder of Idonis father. He wasn't able to except his beloved Starkmanir girl from the annihilation of the tribe at this point. I'd really venture the guess that the situation was the big problem. Otherwise he could have managed to see her secretly. Well, okay, I don't think that he would have done so as heir of Ardishapur. So I guess Garion is also right.
Vreena Caldari Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu Celestial Imperative	Posted - 2008.07.10 02:33:00 - [12] Ah, 'kay. Thanks. ----- The above does not reflect the views and/or opinions of my corporation or alliance...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay?
Kathryn Dougans Amarr B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm	Posted - 2008.07.16 17:42:00 - [13] There's a bit in one of the chronicles. Godflesh. "Javies walked over to the door and greeted the guest, saying to Bethora, "Lady Raana here to see you, milady." The woman walked in. She wore a dress of shimmering greens, and a golden necklace, both of which glimmered in the lights of the quarter. She walked speedily over to Bethora, gave her a nervous smile and said, "Bater sends his regards." Bethora nodded. Bater was Raana's husband, a man with sad eyes and clammy hands. Bethora had let him on top of her once, in a weak moment, and had told him afterwards that if anyone ever found out, she would have him castrated." Which implies that there are such things as marriages, and that adultery happens, but is best left quiet.
Commander Lightning	Posted - 2008.07.17 11:39:00 - [14] By the time human race has modernised as far as it is Eve, in whatever year it is, Marriage was dissolved and civil partnerships were the only thing related that still co-exisited. Marriage is the term or phrase still used, but as far as im aware Marriage itself died around 2100 for the humans back in a galaxy where we were only bound to a couple of planets. Apparently some Amarr who are so history bound by their forfathers still actually adopt the Marriage that you speak of, rather than the civil partnerships that the term marriage is spoken for. A true Amarr Woman wouldnt say anything of relations with anything considered sin, she would simply bottle up such an incident and continue being the true Amarr lady that you all know and love. Otherwise she isnt true? Same-sex marriages would still be considered by some a sin in its own right, and some more serious folk would consider even a mixed bloodline would be cause for sin throughout the family tree. The Human Race has never learned from its past. Humans Killing Humans, thats the way it is, and shall be as long as the Human Race continues. EvE is no exception. //Unknown
Garion Avarr Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.	Posted - 2008.07.17 15:25:00 - [15] Originally by: Commander Lightning By the time human race has modernised as far as it is Eve, in whatever year it is, Marriage was dissolved and civil partnerships were the only thing related that still co-exisited. Marriage is the term or phrase still used, but as far as im aware Marriage itself died around 2100 for the humans back in a galaxy where we were only bound to a couple of planets. Apparently some Amarr who are so history bound by their forfathers still actually adopt the Marriage that you speak of, rather than the civil partnerships that the term marriage is spoken for. A true Amarr Woman wouldnt say anything of relations with anything considered sin, she would simply bottle up such an incident and continue being the true Amarr lady that you all know and love. Otherwise she isnt true? Same-sex marriages would still be considered by some a sin in its own right, and some more serious folk would consider even a mixed bloodline would be cause for sin throughout the family tree. You're aware that this is OOC? ________________________________ This is not a signature.
Mia Archer Amarr Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.17 16:51:00 - [16] Maybe hes from the future!!!! wiggly fingers
Rhanna Khurin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.24 15:35:00 - [17] Well i don't know about marraige, but it seems that same sex pedophilia is pretty common place throughout the Amarrian elite.
Garion Avarr Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.	Posted - 2008.07.24 22:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Rhanna Khurin Well i don't know about marraige, but it seems that same sex pedophilia is pretty common place throughout the Amarrian elite. Eh? Is there a source for this? And what form does this take in the information you have? Is it the abusive relationships seen in modern times, or not much more ambigous, possibly beneficial relationships of ancient Greece (and other cultures, but this is the main one I can think of off the top of my head). ________________________________ This is not a signature.
Rhanna Khurin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.25 12:29:00 - [19] Originally by: Garion Avarr Originally by: Rhanna Khurin Well i don't know about marraige, but it seems that same sex pedophilia is pretty common place throughout the Amarrian elite. Eh? Is there a source for this? And what form does this take in the information you have? Is it the abusive relationships seen in modern times, or not much more ambigous, possibly beneficial relationships of ancient Greece (and other cultures, but this is the main one I can think of off the top of my head). The source is the Empyrean age book
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.25 13:43:00 - [20] Originally by: Rhanna Khurin The source is the Empyrean age book We're talking ONE MAN here, so it's hardly "commonplace". Karsoth was presented as a disgusting monster - he's not supposed to be representative of the whole society. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.

Rhanna Khurin Minmatar	Posted - 2008.07.25 14:01:00 - [21] Perhaps, but i'm sure it is more commonplace than anywhere else. There society runs parallels with the old cathartic excesses of the roman empires.
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.25 14:09:00 - [22] Oh, sure, it'd happen occasionally, but your initial comment implied that you think it woudl be rife. Let's face it, the majority of priests are NOT creepy choir-boy molesters. Unfortunately, the reputation of the profession as a whole has been tarnished by the excesses of a few. Same principle applies to Amarrians, I reckon. Having their own stable of underage sex-slaves is NOT going to be commonplace by anyone's standards, despite its slightly greater frequency within the Empire. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Buduran Amarr	Posted - 2008.07.25 17:39:00 - [23] Here's a small collection of info from the game as well as the chrons: The Ni-Kunni racial description in the character creation screen implies that before they met the Amarr, they had polygamous marriages, and that this practice has been abandonned. My opinion is that the Amarr do marry more or less in the same fashion as we have it in Christianity. Going along the same lines, the Godflesh chronicle states that extramarital relationships are viewed as something inherently bad, and should be kept in secret. As far as I know there is no information regarding any laws that might punish this, so for now I assume that this would cause some very, very bad reputation on part of the parties involved wether their deeds would rise to public light. As to public displays of affection, the game item description of the Exotic Dancer implies that exposing too much flesh in public is considered by the Amarrians "a grave sin, and a sign of serious deviancy". Judging by the serious tone of this description, it seems to me that any sort of kissing or hugging in public is out of the question, and holding hands might be considered highly inappropriate. Whilst I do not wish to sound homophobic or whatever, I have not come across any material pertaining to their view on same-sex relations. Seeing as the Amarrian concept of faith seems to be based on cultures that were not accepting of these practices (descending from a group within the United Catholic Church, Imperial Navy ships being named after holy texts of Judaism for instance), I would think they at the very least frown upon them. This is of course my own opinion, I may be wrong. As to interracial relationships, the racial description of the Amarr bloodline (the bloodline, not the Empire in general) indicates they are pretty big on being descendants of the original Amarrians from the days when there was no spaceflight, so I guess that the more traditionally minded ones wouldn't even consider a relationship with someone not of their bloodline. As for the rest of the bloodlines, I find no evidence of a negative opinion of this.
Mia Archer Amarr Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.26 04:31:00 - [24] Originally by: Buduran Edited by: Buduran on 25/07/2008 17:48:42 As to public displays of affection, the game item description of the Exotic Dancer implies that exposing too much flesh in public is considered by the Amarrians "a grave sin, and a sign of serious deviancy". which is kinda funny since the in game avatar picture for Jamyl Sarum doesnt appear to have any clothes on.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Shadow Company Souls of Vengeance	Posted - 2008.07.26 10:00:00 - [25] Originally by: Mia Archer Originally by: Buduran Edited by: Buduran on 25/07/2008 17:48:42 As to public displays of affection, the game item description of the Exotic Dancer implies that exposing too much flesh in public is considered by the Amarrians "a grave sin, and a sign of serious deviancy". which is kinda funny since the in game avatar picture for Jamyl Sarum doesnt appear to have any clothes on. No, not really. I mean, consider 19th century dress code. They definitely considered exposing too much flesh as a sin, yet for example we have This, exposing the shoulders. In terms of cultural taboo all flesh isn't equal, and have never been equal. Different in every culture. From the images I'd say that Amarrians would consider exposing the belly and anything above the knees as sinful. The neck and shoulders on the other hand are perhaps considered erotic (or enticing), but not sinful. I'd be careful about modeling Amarrian culture on any pre-existing pattern. They're not roman, they're not muslim, they're not catholic. They're Amarrian. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Mia Archer Amarr Insidious Existence RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.26 16:37:00 - [26] shes showing alot more than just her kneck and shoulders, if shes got anything at all its barely covering her chest ____________________________________________
Shirley Serious Imperial Academy	Posted - 2008.07.26 16:42:00 - [27] ok, got a couple more questions. So, if an Amarr married a Khanid (as a second wife), then they are most likely to live in Tash-Murkon region, where such things are more tolerated? What about children born outside of any formal marriage? Is that a serious matter? E.g. an Amarr woman, (again a Tash-Murkonite) travelling the galaxy has a fling with an Amarr man (either an ethnic Amarrian immigrant to the Federation, or another traveller), and winds up pregnant. What happens?
Anneka Tong B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm	Posted - 2008.07.26 16:51:00 - [28] Edited by: Anneka Tong on 26/07/2008 16:52:48 Originally by: Mia Archer shes showing alot more than just her kneck and shoulders, if shes got anything at all its barely covering her chest Naked people are a glitch. Look up Doriam KorAzor, Salvador Sarpati, Dochuta Karsoth for others. Or Stonyvision for a player who is naked
Avel Kereka Amarr The Aegis Militia Aegis Militia	Posted - 2008.07.26 17:27:00 - [29] The richer you are the more you can get away with in private, just by virtue of how much power you have... officially though, marriages are probably strictly regulated, arranged and politically expedient rather than a product of love. Marriages between Khanid and Amarr are unheard of I think, especially because the actual Khanid Family is still True Amarr.
Garion Avarr Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.	Posted - 2008.07.27 04:06:00 - [30] Originally by: Shirley Serious ok, got a couple more questions. So, if an Amarr married a Khanid (as a second wife), then they are most likely to live in Tash-Murkon region, where such things are more tolerated? I imagine so, or in the Kingdom. No hard data on a specific case like that, but we know Tash-Murkon tends to have a more relaxed view of relations in general between the races. I imagine it's also more relaxed in the Kingdom. Originally by: Shirley Serious What about children born outside of any formal marriage? Is that a serious matter? E.g. an Amarr woman, (again a Tash-Murkonite) travelling the galaxy has a fling with an Amarr man (either an ethnic Amarrian immigrant to the Federation, or another traveller), and winds up pregnant. What happens? Well . . . we don't have any PF that gives us any information here, really. However . . . it is rather an important point in my character's backstory, so I've thought about what wouldn't seem out of place with what we know of Amarrian culture, and figured that most likely, it would be hushed up if they were of higher social status, with an abortion done quietly (as is often the case in RL among those who have some measure of social status and preach that pre-maritial sex and abortion and all that is bad). Or the child might be carried to term and then adopted by relatives, with the birth mother likely never being acknowledged to them. Less common, I think, would be the parties simply marrying once the pregnancy was discovered -- especially if they are of high class, why should they do that, when they can just have an abortion? One of the major things in my characters backstory is that he got a girl pregnent when they were both slightly underage (given that Amarrians live a lot longer than we do and place a lot of stock in respect of age, though, I consider the threshhold for adulthood in Amarr to be older than what we think of -- maybe 20 at the youngest), and contrary to his parents wishes, the girl's parent's wishes, and the advice of friends, he marred her and kept the child. It wasn't exactly a happy marriage, though she died before there could be any huge problems. Now, of course, he has a Gallente lover that he would like to start a family with, so . . . obviously this is something I think about a bit. ________________________________ This is not a signature.

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