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Nachshon Caldari 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.07.07 16:36:00 - [1] Right now, from where I'm sitting, the probable result of the current conflict is for the Minmatar Republic to defeat the Amarr Empire. I think it is therefore a good use of our time to discuss the aftermath. Before I begin, I would like to request that Amarrians refrain from declaring that they will win, or that the fight has only begun. It isn't inevitable that we will win - nations have recovered from worse setbacks - but it is PROBABLE. If you want, you could establish your own thread for imagining the consequences of an Amarr victory. First, we have to define the exact nature of defeat. What kind of situation would we define as "victory"? I propose two conditions: that all conquerable Amarrian space has been occupied by the Minmatar Republic, and that the Amarr Imperial Navy is no longer an effective fighting force. The Amarr military consists mostly of their planetary forces, the private navies of the noble houses, and the 24IC (which has probably been battered, but still exists). I doubt we can do much more with CONCORD around. While some would love to occupy the whole empire, I can't see that happening. Simply put, the Republic isn't big enough. Without such an occupation, our ability to force internal changes on the Amarr is limited. Whatever government is in existence at the end of the war will probably survive the surrender process. Our most obvious demand is the formal recognition of the Minmatar Republic as a sovereign nation. This demand is essential, because without it, the surrender accords would have no standing. They can surrender without recognizing the Republic's existence by surrendering to our military. But for the surrender accords to mean anything, they have to recognize that the Minmatar Republic exists, and has the right to exist. They must renounce all claims on its territory or citizens. Second, of course, is the repatriation of slaves. This is one that the Amarr will not want to give in to, but there is no way that we will let them keep a single Minmatar slave. The exact process of repatriation would have to be defined by negotiation. In particular, I am concerned that the Amarr would try to hide the existence of many slaves. I doubt that we would be able to guarantee the freedom of every last slave. But if we get the latest census data, we should be able to ensure that none are left behind by our failings. The consequences of absorbing the slaves is a topic I will cover later. We will probably be forced to leave the slavery system itself intact, and I don't doubt that many slaves will return of their own free will. It is not within our power or our rights to prevent this - if, after we have shown them the opportunities they can have within the Republic, they choose, out of loyalty to their former masters or piety in the Amarr religion, to return to the Empire, we will be forced to permit them. The next demand concerns Derelik. This is contingent upon the state of Derelik at the time of surrender. If the Ammatar Mandate has been pacified, and the Nefantar Fleet broken, then the question of its retention by the Amarr becomes moot. If, however, the Amarr are not in control at the time of surrender, then I believe a referendum would be in order to determine the fate of the region. Ideally, a neutral agency (CONCORD, or perhaps the Servant Sisters of EVE) would oversee the vote, with Amarr and Minmatar observers. The details would be worked out in negotiation. Finally, there is the question of captured systems. I won't deny that I would like to see the occupied systems annexed to the Republic, but there is the question of all the free Amarr citizens in those regions. The concept of a true demilitarized zone in this day and age is laughable - but we could demand that the 24IC and the Amarr Imperial Navy dismantle all stations in these systems. This is another one for the negotiators. (contd.) ____________________________________ Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship. The True Meaning of Freedom My v
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.07.07 16:38:00 - [2] Filthy psychological work there, based on suspension of belief. San Matari Official forums
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.07.07 16:44:00 - [3] Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Filthy psychological work there, based on suspension of belief. Much like the sickening, child-murdering death-cult you call a religion, you traitorous scum. ----- CEO, Mixed Metaphor Dance Commander Asuka Smith > not even goons can make 30m ISK this interesting.
Scagga Laebetrovo Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.07.07 16:46:00 - [4] Originally by: Andreus Ixiris Originally by: Scagga Laebetrovo Filthy psychological work there, based on suspension of belief. Much like the sickening, child-murdering death-cult you call a religion, you traitorous scum. No, I don't. San Matari Official forums
Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.07.07 16:49:00 - [5] Well lying was always one of your more well-rehearsed qualities, dog. ----- CEO, Mixed Metaphor Dance Commander Asuka Smith > not even goons can make 30m ISK this interesting.
Garion Avarr Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.	Posted - 2008.07.07 17:31:00 - [6] Supposing the Minmatar win? Very well, as an intellectual exercise I could suppose that they might win, and postulate what might be the consequences. I do not for a moment think that if the forces that started this war are still in control of the Minmatar when they theoretically win, anything less than the total an immediate freeing of all Matari slaves would be accepted. They would want more, of course, they would want the total destruction of the Empire, but they might settle for only the total and immediate release and return of all slaves. Now, this would be a disaster on the grandest scale. The combination of the defeat and of having all Matari slaves freed at once would cause grave instability within the Empire, it would be worse if it was required that all slavery be abolished, and not just all Matari freed. It is possible this would cause the Empire to collapse, resulting in cluster-wide political and economic instability, and violence for many years to come. The sudden influx of newly freed slaves on such a grand scale would have dire consequences to the Minmatar, as well. A number would require treatment from Vitoc, likely many times the amount that the Republic would be capable of treating. Most would not be able to receive treatment, possibly causing riots as slaves are freed only to die as a result of that freedom, and because human nature will likely cause a bias to be perceived in who receives treatment and who does not. The vast majority of the freed slaves will need other forms of assistances, economic help, housing, jobs, consoling to help them adjust to a free life and recover from any traumas of the war or slavery. There would not be anywhere near enough resources to do this is all slaves were freed at once, which is why calls for slavery to simply be ended in the blink of an eye and not over a period of several decades have always been absurd. Quite frankly, having all of the slaves freed like this would cause such instability that the Republic could not survive it. This also would cause years of violence and great political and economic instability in the entire cluster. In other words, if the Minmatar win, both sides will end up losing, and it will have dire consquences for the cluster. Unless, of course, the majority of slaves 'die during invasion,' which is always possible. This result could cause two things: A. Anger from the Minmatar people at their government for starting the war that caused these deaths, and at not freeing these people safely, however hard or impossible it might have been. There will still be anger. B. Bloodlust against the Amarr for causing these deaths, and a refusal to end the war until the Amarr Empire no longer exists at all -- and I do not think this can be accomplished with military might, for as you say, the Empire is simply too big compared to the Republic for the Republic to invade each and every world and then hold them. This outcome is hard to predict. The outcome of an Amarr victory is more uncertain, as there is more uncertainity over how reasonable the leadership might be. But if the hardliners win, then I am not certain that an Amarr victory would be much better than a Minmatar one, in the long run. In short, peace as soon as possible would be best for both our nations. ________________________________ This is not a signature.
Nachshon Caldari 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.07.07 17:43:00 - [7] (contd. from above) Now for the consequences, specifically of absorbing slaves. The Amarr have claimed that the Republic could not absorb all the Minmatar slaves without the total collapse of our society (or at least our economy). Given that repatriation would more than double the current population, they have a point. There are three issues to consider - rehabilitation, employment, and social services. The first step in repatriating slaves is rehabilitation, where we basically teach slaves how to be free. Beyond the Republic-run programs (currently suspended) there are many private programs in existence. The issue, of course, is that these programs are strapped for funding as it is, and are in no way sufficient to handle a population one third larger than that of the entire Republic. The second issue is employment. How will our economy absorb so many extra workers? I'm unsure as to the current unemployment rate, but I believe it is high. Similarly, how will our social services - already stressed to the limit - handle so many people who will undoubtedly need said services? I believe that the slaves themselves will be key to the solution of the aforementioned problems. We will be acquiring what amounts to a massive labor force. Most slaves are engaged in labor of some kind, and many are trained in some sort of blue-collar position. It seems to me that the best course of action is not to try and expand our existing rehabilitation programs, but to create a new one. I don't know how the programs work, but it seems to me that using the workplace as a classroom might be a good way to introduce them to freedom. Most immediately, the slaves could build the shelters they will use. Perhaps we could engage in some massive building project with our new labor force - something like terraforming a few planets or building several space stations. There are several systems within the Republic that are virtually uninhabited - and if we do annex the conquered systems, a lot of the inhabitants will probably leave, so we'll have a bunch of abandoned systems on our hands. The slaves could colonize them. In so doing, they would learn how to function in our society. They would have paychecks to spend on food and other essentials of life. Unionization and collective bargaining could teach them to stand up to authority when necessary. Of course, we'd need a lot of money for this. I see two sources - the capsuleers, and the Amarr. Having capsuleers run the program would not only allow us to benefit from the vast fortunes most capsuleers possess, but their experience in running large-scale industrial operations. And we could include in our surrender demands the payment of a specific sum of money, to be used to rehabilitate the slaves. Expanding the social services is another task. This is one that the tribes are suited to. They could mobilize their clans to induct slaves into Minmatar society. In some cases, slaves might be adopted into existing clans, but it seems more likely to me that we would form new clans out of the slaves. Allow large social groups to emerge - then let them apply for clan status. The final issue is Vitoc. Banning Vitoc might be possible, but it is a powerful tool for the Amarr to use to control their slaves (though I have to admit, the Amarr economy will be in dire straits after the war). But we will have to deal with the fact that many of our slaves will be addicted to Vitoc. The solution, I think, is to include in our surrender terms a demand for all data regarding Vitoc and the Vitoxin. They should give us enough data to be able to make the Vitoxin ourselves. With this level of data, we should probably be able to create a cure. So, what do you think of my analysis? ____________________________________ Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship. The True Meaning of Freedom My v
Nachshon Caldari 17th Minmatar Tactical Wing	Posted - 2008.07.07 17:50:00 - [8] Garion, I addressed many of your points in my second post. I do agree that the Empire would suffer - badly - if slavery were to be completely abolished. But I merely envisioned the liberation of all Minmatar slaves. The other slave races are native Amarrians, and they should be ultimately integrated into Amarrian society. I agree with you that peace might be the best solution for both nations. Perhaps if we had a common enemy... ____________________________________ Caldari by birth, Minmatar by citizenship. The True Meaning of Freedom My v
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2008.07.07 17:53:00 - [9] I'd like to say that 'repatriotism' is just another word for mental slavery. Stop the Vitoc supply and let the slaves choose for themselves. Nothing is more threatening to the Amarrian psyche than a slave revolt when they have no means to keep their servants blissfully numb. _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Amira Silvermist 24th Providence Templar Division	Posted - 2008.07.07 18:16:00 - [10] Wow... I never knew you were such a dreamer Nachshon. Originally by: Pwett Nothing is more threatening to the Amarrian psyche than a slave revolt when they have no means to keep their servants blissfully numb. Actually there are other ways to stop slaves from revolting... ----------------------------------------------------------------------

Cpt Constantinus Celestial Janissaries	Posted - 2008.07.07 18:33:00 - [11] Originally by: Amira Silvermist Wow... I never knew you were such a dreamer Nachshon. Originally by: Pwett Nothing is more threatening to the Amarrian psyche than a slave revolt when they have no means to keep their servants blissfully numb. Actually there are other ways to stop slaves from revolting... "Honest Const's Human Resources" is now selling Vitoc for realy low prices. Only 6000isk the unit. Buy it now and show your slaves that you are THE MAN! ( who keeps em down ) PS: One "unit" ( 800kg ) contains enough Vitoc to keep several slaves in line for several weeks
Garion Avarr Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.	Posted - 2008.07.07 18:37:00 - [12] Originally by: Pwett Stop the Vitoc supply and let the slaves choose for themselves. Nothing is more threatening to the Amarrian psyche than a slave revolt when they have no means to keep their servants blissfully numb. You are aware that stopping the Vitoc supply will cause all slaves that are Dependant upon it to die? While it does cause a momentary euphoria, it primarily works because it is the antidote to a virus that is injected into them. If they do as they are told, they are given Vitoc and live until a new dose is needed, if they do not do as they are told . . . well, they get no Vitoc and die in agony. ________________________________ This is not a signature.
Garion Avarr Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.	Posted - 2008.07.07 18:58:00 - [13] Originally by: Nachshon Garion, I addressed many of your points in my second post. I do agree that the Empire would suffer - badly - if slavery were to be completely abolished. But I merely envisioned the liberation of all Minmatar slaves. The other slave races are native Amarrians, and they should be ultimately integrated into Amarrian society. I agree with you that peace might be the best solution for both nations. Perhaps if we had a common enemy... I will address your points in more detail later, but suffice to say that even if a way was found to successfully care for them and avoid a disastrous refugee situation, absorbing so many people at once would likely have social effects that cannot easily be predicted. A gradual freeing of slaves over several decades would be best for all concerned, I believe -- but those driving the war on the Minmatar side would not have the patience for such a thing. That is one area in which they truly could stand to learn from the Amarr -- we are the masters of patience. It should be noted that until the death of Emperor Doriam II, the Empire did seem to be headed slowly in the direction of a gradual freeing of Matari slaves. Of course, I have not addressed possible outcomes of the Ammatar situation. How they are dealt with is likely to cause a bitter political battle and long lasting grudges within Minmatar society. On the one hand, they are Matari. Some will want to rescue them from the 'rule of the Amarr' and reintegrate them into Minmatar society. On the other hand, they are traitors that helped the Amarr. Some will want to punish them as harshly, or even more harshly, than the Amarr. Whichever happens, there will either be lingering resentment against them if they are mostly accepted, or lingering psychological scars throughout Minmatar society as a result of a terrible fight with, and terrible punishment of, people are your brothers and sisters. The 'common enemy' comment is interesting -- is this just idle thoughts, or is there anything to read into in it? If there is, feel free to contact me privately if it is something best not spoken here. ________________________________ This is not a signature.
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.07.08 00:22:00 - [14] Hmm...this will have to be given much thought. Several points however, need to be addressed. Number of slaves. This is unknown, and there is no hard census data that I am aware of. I hold slaves, as you know from here, and even I have only a rough count, mostly taken by the slaves themselves. However, you must realize that we (the Amarr) have owned and been breeding slaves for many many centuries. There are billions and billions of them. They support the Empire and its economy, and they are a part of it, for good or ill. Freedom. Most slaves have no idea what this means. They are born, grow up, live and die in a state of slavery. Most have known no other life in their progenitor's living memory. To take them from the place they know and are used to (however bad it may be) and throw them into a radically different situation is not conducive to their long term health and well being. ---Let us address, for a moment, the situation some freed slaves find themselves in today. A slave is freed, through a Matari raid lets say, and is taken to Matari space, a planet in the Rens system, actually. She is young, about 19 standard, and has never been taught anything other than how to wait upon a noble Amarrian Lady (minor nobility, even more minor than me; the lady died in the raid) and serve her. She is in-processed, and since she served in the household of a Lady, was never exposed to Vitoxin, and was <coughs> IS given some immuno-boosters and such. She is then taken to a refugee camp and assigned to a bed in a barracks like structure. She is informed that she cannot leave the camp unless she is given a permit to do so, and is told she will receive some counseling and a twice daily marker to be used for the acquisition of food and necessities from a commissary in the camp. She is alone and scared, and has no idea what is going to happen to her. There is some security in the camp, but since the guards are paid through a NGO charity, they arent very good at what they do. They are also easily bribed, and being human, take advantage (I am not spelling it out for you, if you cant figure out what this alludes to, you dont want to know) of the refugees sometimes. There is also a system of control and governance in the camp. It is administered by a group of caseworkers and officials, who are often underpaid and overloaded with problems, and are therefore rather inefficient and inattentive to additional "issues" that may arise in the camp. Our slave is introduced the first night, however, to those that REALLY run things. A small group of thugs make what seems to be a regular set of "rounds" and take things from the other, less organized or less powerful people of the camp. Our slave got her food marker taken the first night, and some of her toiletries and few personal belongings the second. The third night, she lost something much more precious and (since she was a good Amarrian slave and was versed in our religion) less replaceable than mere physical things, I again leave it up to you to figure out what that was because such bestial behavior need not be spoken of here. After this, she goes to a guard and asks for aid, he actually does accompany her back to her barracks, but tells her that it is unlikely that they will be able to catch the persons that did this to her. She is scheduled for more counseling, given a medical test to determine if STD transmission has occurred, and is sent home. Over the next few days, she is given some instruction in the ways of the Republic and how its systems work and how she is expected to behave, and such. She is informed of laws and rules and such. She is given some counseling in 3 group therapy sessions and one (YES, ONE, BY ALL THAT IS HOLY) ... <Veron Daerth seems to momentarily lose control of his emotions. Absolute rage plays across his face and for a moment, his eyes seem to glow with the fires of Hell.> Excuse me.
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.07.08 00:46:00 - [15] Edited by: Veron Daerth on 08/07/2008 00:49:08 Contd <Veron Daerth returns, and seems to have regained his self control> I apologize, but some things should not be. The loving and merciful God should strike some people down as they stand and there would be much benefit for it. Alas that this never seems to happen when it is needed most. I cannot continue that recital. The young lady that keeps my books and accounts is that young slave. She had no tribe, and was of mixed Ni-Kuuni and Matari ancestry, possibly with a bit of Gallente in her, who knows. She had no-one to aid her. She was prostitute in a station orbiting a moon in a remote system when I came across her. She recognized me as a pureblood Amarrian and in a moment of what must have been monumental courage and also despair, asked if God had somehow forsaken her. I am a spiritual man, yet I am also a man. Her tale enraged me beyond good sense. She was sold from that camp. No it wasnt a slave sale, not really. She was "released" and told that she was ready to become a member of Matari society. She was given rudimentary instruction in the methods of running a self diagnostic and repair for an industrial station. Basically a janitor. There was no work for her, and since she had lost what she felt was the most important thing about her , her virtue (and I do mean that literally, not her self worth, though thats part of it) she felt it a small step to become an exotic dancer. She is a rather attractive and young woman, but uneducated and ill suited for what she got into. She ended up a ***** (hmm, wont let me transmit that word) in a remote place, far from help or succor. Her pimp abused her far worse than she would have ever been in the Empire, and before I took her from that place, I did one good thing for the universe, little though it was. I arranged (money does wonders it seems) for her pimp to be detained and restrained in a small enclosed room. I then gave that young woman and two of her associates each a vibra-knife, and let them in the room. What was left was unidentifiable and was disposed of in the waste chute. A small gratuity to the local authorities allowed all three to leave in my care, and they remain there today. They work, and have been educated and lead mostly productive lives. Two of the three were Matari, though only one of them, Shara, was a slave to begin with, the third girl, Alene, is of Gallente origin. They work as accountants for me and have a small side business in Auvergne that does well around tax time. The point of this is that there will be no easy solutions, and your wish to simply free all the slaves in the Empire will cause untold destruction, both to the Empire, and to those you would seek to aid. Simply letting them go (the slaves) would cause economic collapse in the Empire, and your talk of "paying a sum" to aid the freed slaves would be a ridiculous fantasy in those circumstances. Actually, it is ridiculous in any circumstances. There isnt enough money in the Empire to pay for that and pay for whatever damage the war incurs (and there will be damage) and keep the economy going. Your best bet is to integrate the slaves into Amarrian society as citizens. They gains the same rights and responsibilities as the other common citizens and have the same protections of the law. They have work (and get paid for it, a novel idea for Amarr) and can be educated where they live. Perhaps some sort of arrangement to repatriate some of them can be worked out, or possible all of them, but that will have to be over a long long period of time, so to forestall the collapse of the economy or to not inundate the Republic with homeless, penniless, uneducated, and miserable people. I dont see any other way to make the situation for both slaves and Amarrian society compatible or to address the issues facing us all today. I am now rather irate and angry and it is not any of your faults, but I must go now or say some things that you all dont deserve. God grant you wisdom.
Kaede Yuunai Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2008.07.08 03:42:00 - [16] <A transmission opens and a young Verokior woman appears on screen, dressed in a simple but functional leather dress covering most of her body, and a bandage covering her eyes, she smiles faintly, and seem to be a tad reluctant to speak. After a moment, she opens her mouth and speaks in a soft, controlled voice.> I've read, sometimes listened to, the diffrent subjects on this summit ever since I recieved my license a couple weeks ago, and I must say, I've learned much. This will be... my first ever transmission on the summit infact. <She smiles, trying to supress a blush> <She stutters a little in start, but decides to just speak her mind and get it over with, voice a tad more eager this time.> I-iea... I.. I've started to get a better understanding of how many diffrent people think, what diffrent people value and believe in... and one of the things that cought my "eyes" as it were, was the oppinions and beliefs of Veron Daerth, among others. Oh! Sorry, its Lord Daerth, isn't it? <A flash of uneasyness passes over the woman's face before she goes on, now a bit more passionate.> Like I said, one of the things I've noticed, though I'm relatively un-experianced, is your beliefs and your values on the whole slave system the Imperials embrace, as well as some others I might name... <Her lips twist into a smirk and her words get a bit harder before she goes on, as before.> I recall you talked at lenght about your Treatment of slaves... elsewhere, with others. Also did you mention, I believe, the young slave girl you found on that station. Her situation reminds me a tad about my own earlier, but I'll not get into that, nor am I interested in speaking of that at the time. My point being, and what I was supposed to get to, is... Lord Daerth, calm down, relax. I can relate to your tale about your slave girl, I can place myself in her shoes. I know I'd be quite happy, grateful... yes, very grateful indeed if anyone had helped me away from such an existance. But, as justified as your rage might be, you need to realize not all freed slaves end the same way... much like I've come to realize there are diffrent fates for diffrent slaves in the hold of the imperials. I've experianced some of the things you talk about, during and... after... my capture. <She sights, thinking of the past, but soon recollects herself and moves on.> Truly, I've faced some of the short-commings and errors of either side, and can claim to know a litte of both systems. I believe the Republic needs to come out on top of this conflict... because if they don't, more will come to face what I and millions more did. I hope that... I pray that we will win this. But ultimately, I think what I fear the most, is that we, as a people, the Matari... will hurt you, like you hurt us. War is one thing, but if we did like you do we would be like you. And no amount of reasoning will wipe away that shame if we did. <She breathes in relief, the transmission's contents done. Hopefully she will get used to it and not be so tense next time. Just before her outstretched hand cut's the feed, she recalls something she missed and hastily adds it.> Oh, ah, I'm not in much of a position to say much on the subject but I'd love every Matari and others free to do as they wish... I'm just not sure it's a relistic goal really. Everyone is a bit much when someone in the Empire have slaves... and then... there are other places that needs clearing afterwords. <The feed is cut.>
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.07.08 04:30:00 - [17] My most sincere apologies to all, especially to Pilot Nachshon, as I believe that I may have acted in a manner... inappropriate to this forum. The point I was trying to illustrate is that many slaves that are freed today do not get the attention and care they need to integrate successfully with the cultures and societies outside the Empire. I did not intend to imply that Shara's fate was the lot in life of all freed slaves. Many do make a good and useful life for themselves. On a side note, Shara and her friends are NOT my slaves, they work for me, and can go where and how they wish to. Shara stays, I believe, because she has not managed to shake the Master/Slave mindset totally, and because I was the one that aided her in restoring her self worth and working through the small crisis of faith she was suffering when I found her. However, I make no claim to her person, and she is not mine in any sense. Pilot Nachshon, apologies aside, what you suggest is both highly unlikely and improbable. The repatriation of even a moderate percentage of the slave population in Amarr is likely to cause an economic meltdown. Trying to force the Empire to support the slaves that have been freed is only going to exacerbate that issue. I mean no offense to you when I say this, but you must come to accept some of the realities of the situation. 1. The slaves are an integrated part of Amarr. Taking tham all away will destroy Amarr economically and socially. Slowly manumitting (a process of legally freeing a slave) them will allow the owners of manufacturing facilities and farms to absorb the impact of many of their workers leaving over a period of time. However, over that same period, other workers can be hired and trained and such, it is highly likely that the new workers will be newly manumitted slaves from elsewhere, but they are now paid workers and citizens (citizenship is the key) and the economic costs will not destroy the Empire's infrastructure. 2. Repatriation. Yes, there will be many slaves that choose to go to MatarI and Gallentean and Caldari space. But a vast majority will not. This is a common side effect of slavery. As bad as it usually is, the slave DOES have history connecting them to a certain farm, factory, town, family (their own or their masters) etc. People as a habit do not like to leave their roots. The vast majority of slaves are born slaves. Many, like my own, have their own towns and cities. Some, like mine, also have a semi-autonomy within the structure of the planets where they reside. A few, like mine, also have the rights to have families (details here )and lives of their own. You seek to take these people home. I contend that they ARE home. It isnt a great home as it stands, but it can be made to be better. In the case of Matari victory, and assuming the conditions you stipulated, Pilot Nachshon, my own "slaves" would be repatriated to their ancestral space (assuming that their ancestry could be determined at all after centuries of interbreeding with other racial genotypes) and "educated" and given a chance of a free life. You would take them from a place that is theirs, somewhat, and take them from their heritage (good or bad, it IS their heritage) and in a stroke, trivialize all they they have worked for. All the homes that my slaves have built for themselves, all the families, all the memories (good and bad), all the work, sweat and, yes, blood they shed to get where they are today. Your idea would destroy all that in a stroke. If I could manumit them all today, I actually would. They would continue to live where they are (most of them) and those that left I could get replacements for (workers, not slaves). They would go to work, and eat and sleep and live and die. All much the same as they do today. I would still own the land and factories and such, but their lives would be theirs. Or would it? [Transmission interrupt]
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.07.08 05:00:00 - [18] [Transmission clears] In reality, little would change overnight. They would still work for me, though as citizens, I would have to pay them more and possibly offer some benefits. However, in order to pay for their free education, housing, clothing, etc. they would get taxed. A lot. Those things are NOT cheap, I assure you. If they dont want free housing and clothing, well, then they can go get it themselves from the local markets. It will reduce my overhead costs to not have to pay for all their housing and clothing and food, and I will make a lot of money leasing them land to build their new houses on, or leasing them the homes they currently occupy (housing and land ARENT free, not anywhere and not in any culture, there is ALWAYS a cost). Perhaps a system of grandfathering could be instituted, but when you get down to it, its my land and my factory and my farm and my estate. If they want to work for me, thats fine, but there are some obligations that free citizens who live on others land and such have to comply with. As it stands,they have housing and clothing and food. They have a community and such. They have families and an education and a job. They get money and they have a life. Actually..now that I think of it.. we COULD simply let them govern themselves as a whole settlement or town or village what have you. There could be a lease between myself (as the landowner) and them (as the town or village). They would be responsible for maintaining order in the town, and would get limited ownership rights (think rental here, but permanent and guaranteed rental) to the land and premises. In return, they pay me a set fee per annum for the land and such that I have supplied. Since there are production facilities and farms co-located with the current slave settlements on my estates, there would be work available, at a reasonable wage, and that would generate more income... Hmm...I have to think that one over a bit more. I will have to also talk to my Caldari investment manager, he has several degrees in economics and may have some good ideas about this. But I digress. 3. Education. Where will you get the teachers, and the schools and the funds to run them? The Republic's economy is currently rather strapped, and as you said, unemployment is very high. Quite a few Matari have immigrated to Federation space for job opportunities alone. Many slaves have an education of some kind, you dont put an uneducated person to work in a refinery or smelter, it always ends up badly. If there arent any jobs in the Republic for the people you already have, what are you going to do with the ones you are going to get. Where will the food come from that the freed slaves will eat while they build the schools and housing. Where will the tools and the buildings themselves. All of what you suggest requires a material infrastructure (tools to make the tools to make the house) that doesnt exist. And for damned sure Amarr cannot pay for it either. With the slaves gone, there wont be any profits from production in the Empire to give to freed slaves. I am sorry sir, but I could go on. I like that you are considering the alternatives, and in my opinion, an Amarrian victory WOULD lead to a worsening of the moral corruption would lead the Empire from God's true path even more. The zealots would see it as a sign from God, and the fanatics would demand more territory and more slaves and more death and more destruction. We need to end the current war, preferably with a stalemate, then begin to hammer out an accord that will allow for some stability between the Empires. Then we need to work on Amarr's problems from within, and above all, we MUST be patient. Social change in the Empire is slow, generational even. Time will be needed for those of us who would see change for the better to act and set the groundwork. In all reality, our grandchildren will have to finish it, but we MUST start it. God grant you all wisdom. Apologies for my earlier outburst.
Garion Avarr Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.	Posted - 2008.07.08 05:12:00 - [19] Originally by: Kaede Yuunai But ultimately, I think what I fear the most, is that we, as a people, the Matari... will hurt you, like you hurt us. War is one thing, but if we did like you do we would be like you. And no amount of reasoning will wipe away that shame if we did. I am afraid, Yuunai, that a number of your people already seem to have the desire to act this way. Which is truly a shame, for nothing could make me gladder than to see both our peoples living in peace, both learning from each others, exchanging cultural views without slavery. ________________________________ This is not a signature.
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.07.08 05:46:00 - [20] Also, Pilot Yuunai, I thank you for your effort to bring me to my senses. It is most appreciated. I am sorry to hear that you have suffered much as Shara has, and am gladdened that you have broken free of that life. I do agree with Lord Avarr, and would see an exchange of ideals and thinking between our peoples without the cloud of slavery hanging over us all, but I see little chance for that in the near future. Another thing you said caught my attention. You feared that you would become like us and would hurt us as much as you could out of a sense of revenge. (I took a few liberties with the exact wording there, but I think thats what you meant) I would submit to you that this, and this, and this, and most especially this; all these represent exactly what you and I have both feared would happen. Death and killing is easy. Slaughter and destruction are addictive. If left to fester, hate and rage and anger and fear all will poison the body and soul. A wise man once said "Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, Hate leads to Suffering" and he was correct. I left most of my hate and anger behind me long ago. I would be lying if I said that I had none left, but I try each day to overcome it and to be objective and thoughtful. I wish you good fortune, Pilot Yuunai. May God smile upon you.

Shern Minmatar Ammatar Free Corps	Posted - 2008.07.08 06:18:00 - [21] Edited by: Shern on 08/07/2008 06:25:09 Edited by: Shern on 08/07/2008 06:19:52 Originally by: Nachshon The next demand concerns Derelik. This is contingent upon the state of Derelik at the time of surrender. If the Ammatar Mandate has been pacified, and the Nefantar Fleet broken, then the question of its retention by the Amarr becomes moot. If, however, the Amarr are not in control at the time of surrender, then I believe a referendum would be in order to determine the fate of the region. Ideally, a neutral agency (CONCORD, or perhaps the Servant Sisters of EVE) would oversee the vote, with Amarr and Minmatar observers. The details would be worked out in negotiation. I'm not sure that you understand the unique position of the matari in the Mandate, Nachshon. We identify less with our tribes and more with the mandate and the Ammatar as a whole. The revolt in our Fleet was unexpected and might well have been caused by agents working for the raiding fleet that burned Jarizza. The Ammatar have chosen to build a new society and to align with Amarr for decades. I am worried about the assumption that, given the chance, we will meekly go back to the matari in the tribal Republic and the wildlands. I feel you are treating us like surly children and assuming that you know what is best for us. That's the charge that so many matari make to the Amarr - but most amarrians take their duty of teaching slaves very seriously. I feel that most matari don't understand that. In my time in the Republic, I got nothing but ridicule for praying and for not being as aggressive as most minmatar are. If we come 'home', will not the worst parts of minmatar society want to take revenge on us for our 'betrayal' ? Will you not want to try to take us away from God ? Will you not break up our communities, all in the name of 'freedom' ? I do not think that the Ammatar will ever be able to call the Minmatar and Thukkers brothers and sisters again until you learn to respect us for what we are and the decisions we have made. We are not your country cousins to be 'saved' and 'retrained' to be free. We are a proud people who have chosen a hard road to follow. It will be for the benefit of all matari, but the hard road takes time to travel.
Esna Pitoojee Amarr Heavily Utilized Mechanic Mayhem	Posted - 2008.07.09 01:47:00 - [22] The issues at hand can be split into four categories: Slave release, territory return, continuing hostilities, and those who the Empire does not control. 1. Slave Release The agreement the Republic will most likely request is that all slaves, regardless of status, be released to the Republic. While this seems like a logical request on the surface (I believe the Amarr Empire might actually benefit from such a loss - we've to long lived off the sweat of others, not off our own merit), what about those slaves who are not of Matari descent, such as the Eularians? There are far fewer such slaves in Amarr ownership that Matari, but they exist nonetheless. Then there's the matter of absorbing all those people... this needs a lot more discussion (presumably to be worked out by the official negotiators) but, in my opinion, if planets were leaving the Republic for the Angel Cartel BEFORE all this, things don't look good for the future. Finally, what about the woman whose situation Lord Daerth described? Would she be forcibly moved to the Republic, then have to return to the Empire once it had been determined that she really did wish to live in Lord Daerth's service? Who would finance her return trip? What about the millions, maybe billions or trillions, who wish to follow her path? What about those Matari who have become integrated members of our society - not slaves, but low commoners - and do not wish to leave? 2. Territory Return One manner is to find all those settled Matari systems that were annexed by the Empire during the earlier reclaiming; from talks to the Matari crew aboard my various ships, I estimate the number of system to be around 2-5 - not a serious loss to the Empire. The remaining systems were reached and settled by the Amarr Empire, and belong to no one but the Amarr Empire. To say anything else is just silly, and would open up a number of questions about Gallente and Caldari empire systems being similarly "nuetral". Then there is the matter of stations: To order the Amarrian Navy to remove its stations from said systems would not only be pointless - the Amarr Navy has not initiated a slave raid in many years - but would leave the systems vulnerable to the Blood Raiders, Sansha's Nation, or any other pirate faction that wished to prey upon the undefended planets. The 24th IC however, is for wartime purposes only; the moment peace is reached, the Crusade should cease to exist. 3: Continuing Hostilities One possibility you must consider is that even after your "defeat" conditions have been met, or even after a ceasefire has been agreed upon, Matati/Gallente forces may continue to suffer from sporadic attacks by radical elements - both of rogue Imperial Navy units or Amarrian-aligned capsuleers - who will refuse to admit that the Empire has fallen. The same, however, can be said for elements of Matari forces: I have heard many calls of "Death to the Amarr!" There are likely those who will refuse to end thier campaigns with the return of all enslaved Matari. How will they be handled? The Republic government as long denied assisting groups such as the Defiants; but will they ever actually act AGAINST them? 4: Those who are not under the control of the Amarr Empire Right in the beginning, it has to be understood that the Khanid Kingdom is not under the direct control of the Amarr Empire; any agreement with the Empire will likely not be held as binding to the Kingdom. That brings up the question of those Matari enslaved in the Kingdom. Second, the Ammatar: The Ammatar will likely decide whether they wish to follow an agreement negotiated with the Empire. If they do not, no one deserves to chose what will happen to them except the Ammatar themselves. A seperate agreement should be negotiated with the Ammatar should this happen. Then there is the matter of the slaves aboard ships owned by freelance capsuleers. I do hope that a peaceful agreement can be found that will satisfy the Empire and the Republic. ---------------------------------------------- Say "Amarr ships suk, lol." I dare you. My statments do not represent the opinions, views, or actions of my corp.
Veron Daerth Amarr Blood Meridian	Posted - 2008.07.09 02:28:00 - [23] Lord Pitoojee, I would add that the reason that the Imperial Navy has not conducted a rid of Matari space or anyone else's in so long is because they have been given an Imperial Mandate not to. I believe that the Emperor Heideran gave that order himself, though I may be wrong. I wold also point out that for all of our own charges of complacency at the government of the Republic in regards to their terrorists, we did not adequately pursue and prosecute the Rogue Slavers found to be operating out of Amarrian space. This is, perhaps, something that can be rectified in the future. As to the young lady I told you about. She is not a slave, or even bound to my service in any way. At least not on my part. I fear she has never quite gotten used to the idea of being "free" and has attached herself to my operations out of a sense of comfort brought about by the Master / Slave relationship she is used to. I do not know exactly what to do about this and so, for now, I leave things as they are. I trust that when Shara is ready, she will go her own way of her own accord. Good tidings to you all, Pilots.
Garion Avarr Amarr Zero Zero Traders YTMND.	Posted - 2008.07.09 06:47:00 - [24] Originally by: Veron Daerth I wold also point out that for all of our own charges of complacency at the government of the Republic in regards to their terrorists, we did not adequately pursue and prosecute the Rogue Slavers found to be operating out of Amarrian space. This is, perhaps, something that can be rectified in the future. Actually, while there is perhaps not as much enforcement as their should be, there is a fair amount of enforcement. During the time I served as a military lawyer, I personally participated in legal activities related to such enforcement, including several courts-martial for navy officers complicit in illegal slaving activities. While I freely admit that more could be done, it would be wrong to suggest that we are extremely lax in enforcing laws concerning illegal slaving. ________________________________ This is not a signature.
Merdaneth Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.09 09:42:00 - [25] Edited by: Merdaneth on 09/07/2008 09:45:25 Originally by: Nachshon Right now, from where I'm sitting, the probable result of the current conflict is for the Minmatar Republic to defeat the Amarr Empire. I think it is therefore a good use of our time to discuss the aftermath. There is no such thing as probable impossibility mr. Nachson. You should consider a change of sitting place. ____ The Illusion of Freedom \| The Truth about Slavery
BloodBird Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.07.09 11:19:00 - [26] Originally by: Merdaneth There is no such thing as probable impossibility mr. Nachson. You should consider a change of sitting place. Leave it to a member of PIE to be unable to even comprehend the sceario that they might just lose the war... even if the Militia can't harm the soveregenity of the Amarr high-security space, they can claim all of it's low-security areas, and those are quite a few. And don't give me that dribble that the Imperial navy will stop them, we both know they won't. As long as things stay like they are the navies will sit nicely on their asses and wait it out, content to be on the defensive. It is the capsuleers that fight thus far, and until now, the imperial loyalists have not done much but die and fail. If things go on like this, all empire low-sec will be Matari low sec and you will be confined to preventing incursions into Amarr high-security space. You really have to do better than go about blissfully ignoring the realites for a rose-tinted fantasy of omnipotence, Merdaeth. Sig source
Scourge Drakonis Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2008.07.09 14:16:00 - [27] Minmatar Republic to win, eh? While I do not dispute the fact that the Minmatar CAPSULEER militia has been quite successful against the Amarrian CAPSULEER militia, mainly due to the Amarrians being rather outnumbered, to suggest that the petty handful of backwater systems that have been lost amount to the defeat of the Amarrian Empire is rather...foolish. Yes, as I said, hats off to the Minmatar militia. You have indeed fought well, but I remind you that the Imperial Fleet has not even begun offensive operations against the Republic. This 'militia war' is nothing but a bloody little sideshow at the moment. Keep in mind what a fleet of Amarrian battleships did to one of your 'Elder' battlefleets... Should we come to the point where the great factions turn their back on CONCORD and enter open war, and, no, we are NOT in open war yet, you will see just how much of an 'effective fighting force' the Imperial Navy is if and when such open warfare erupts between the Republic and Empire. "Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts. Only the Heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots fights a war on 12 fronts!" -Londo Mallari, Centuari Ambassador

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