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Ryn Aldaron	Posted - 2008.07.08 17:50:00 - [1] Hey all! As a newer pilot, I've been researching the various ship classes and Interceptors look appealing to me for PvP given my playstyle and whatnot. However, I'm having a hard time deciding what variant to use and I also have some unanswered questions or concerns about out-dated compilation threads on this subject. For reference, I am a Caldari pilot with missile-focused skills. Any insights you can provide would be most welcome! 1. Malediction or Crow? It seems rather apparent that the Malediction would require me to be relatively close to my target(s), which is something I don't normally do. Plus, wouldn't I be in web range to use the Malediction's rocket load-out? Seems to me that a slow Interceptor is a dead one, but is the webbed speed still creating enough transversal? It just seems that if I get webbed, especially by another frigate-sized ship, I'm going to be in deep trouble. 2. Suggested Setups Following from #1, I'd obviously be using Missiles with the Crow and I have a pretty good idea what that setup would look like. But I'm curious as to what yall think is a good "all-around" build for the Crow. I have no experience with Amarr ships, so I'd also like some ideas on an effective Rocket Malediction. I've heard with Javelins, you can make it somewhat range-capable. 3. Maneuvers Again, the Crow seems like an Orbit-n-Nuke ship, not too complicated beyond keeping range. But I don't have flying time in it yet so I am curious how you Vets go about it. As for the Malediction, I'd assume you want to get in range ASAP and start up a real tight orbit. Thoughts? Anything you can advise would be a great help, I'm seeing if this is something I think I can pull off. Thanks so much for your help!
MITSUK0	Posted - 2008.07.08 18:38:00 - [2] Edited by: MITSUK0 on 08/07/2008 18:38:29 Train both tbh the skill sets are interchangeable so all you need is the frig skill at lvl5. The crow is a good allrounder but imho the rocketDiction dogfights better and the missileDiction tackles better. I dont post my setups here anymore so tough luck on that one - I would advise that you check the killboards of good pvp corps rather than relying on this forum which is full of theorycrafting carebears, whiners and misinforming trolls. maneuvers you need to learn the hard way. Movement and reaction time is very important and there are many factors to take into account - tackling people with neuts, covering a large distance to tackle a sniper without instapopping, avoiding the killzone when fighting a ranis, getting webs on faster intys etc etc etc etc Fit cheap, fly aggresivley and learn from your losses.
Spectre3353 Gallente The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.07.08 19:43:00 - [3] Hey Ryn, I am a pretty new pilot myself and I have only been flying inti's for less than a month. I don't have any experience flying the Malediction or Crow at all as I am only qualified to fly Gallente interceptors and spend most of my time in a Taranis. That being said, I think maybe there are a few things I can share about flying a close ranged interceptor that may be helpful to you since you asked for tips about flying a close range Malediction in your 3rd question: (1) Use the orbit button on the target window. Sounds stupidly simple and obvious but I never used this until recently. Depending on what inti I am flying and what my loadout is, I right click on the orbit button and "Set default orbit..." to something relevant based on my optimal. When flying a blaster fitted Taranis it is usually 500m. When flying with rails it is more like 15000m. Being able to just click a button as opposed to right clicking a target and choosing an orbit distance is way easier, faster and considerably less prone to errors. (2) Throttle your speed. This has several useful applications. You will need to be able to time your speed throttling properly so that you can get into close range of your targets FAST but also not overshoot them. Having to turn around and move back into range after you overshoot is just less time youre doing good DPS and more time that they are able to shoot at you. This might be less important to a rocket ship like the Malediction (I am not too familiar with missile mechanics to be honest) but it is especially important in a blaster ship. Throttling can also be useful in other situations where you want to make sure you don't bounce off a gate you are racing to jump through or when you are just trying to trick your opponents into thinking your ship is slower than it actually is. There is lots more stuff around using bookmarks and clicking in space and overheating, etc etc etc that will improve your effectiveness as an interceptor pilot as well but I am still figuring them out myself :) As far as "seeing if this is something I think I can pull off", sure you can. It only takes a few months to train up a race of inti's and the support skills necessary to go along with it. I am a 4 month old pilot and have been flying my Taranis for less than a month and I have been having great success and a ton of fun with it. Good luck. ----- http://evenewb.blogspot.com/
Ryn Aldaron	Posted - 2008.07.08 19:57:00 - [4] Awesome advice, thanks both of you. The throttle speed is a good point I'll make sure to remember. Spectre, as someone who flies close to your targets, how do you go about getting into that 500m range without getting shot to pieces? A direct approach seems like you'd get a nose full of nasty. The reason I'm asking is because I have yet to fly an engagement at that range. Also, what kind of setup do you run? Thanks again, much appreciated.
Spectre3353 Gallente The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.07.08 20:11:00 - [5] Originally by: Ryn Aldaron Awesome advice, thanks both of you. The throttle speed is a good point I'll make sure to remember. Spectre, as someone who flies close to your targets, how do you go about getting into that 500m range without getting shot to pieces? A direct approach seems like you'd get a nose full of nasty. The reason I'm asking is because I have yet to fly an engagement at that range. Also, what kind of setup do you run? Thanks again, much appreciated. Well in a lot of situations I don't even have to move that far to get to the 500m orbit. Most of the time you drop in on someone in a belt they are already sitting at or close to the 0 point and all you have to do is throw down your web and scram and open fire. In situations where my target is a few dozen kilometers away my approach may depend upon what my opponent is flying and who they are. If it is just some newb, I will probably just fly straight at them. If it is a missile boat, again I will probably just fly straight at them as my transversal doesn't really affect how they hit me. If it is a rail or laser ship that can snipe me as I approach, most of the time I will warp away with my tail between my legs and not even try to engage. Hypothetically if you REALLY wanted to get yourself out there safely you would probably want to manually zig-zag yourself towards them so that you can keep some semblance of a transversal velocity (which is what keeps poorly tracking turrets from hitting you) but I haven't really run into any situations where this was necessary. As far as my Taranis setups, I currently run these: Blasteranis: 3x Light Ion Blaster II w/ Faction Antimatter 1x 1MN MWD II 1x Warp Disruptor II 1x X5 Prototype Web 1x Overdrive II 1x Damage Control II 1x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 2x Hobgoblin II Railranis: 3x 125mm Prototype Rails w/ Some sort of long range ammo 1x Best Named MWD 1x Warp Disruptor II 1x Small Cap Booster 1x Overdrive II 1x Nanofiber II 1x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 2x Hobgoblin II or Warrior II As stated earlier, take my advice with a grain of salt. I am most definitely still a newb to flying inti's. ----- http://evenewb.blogspot.com/
Caelum Dominus Invicta.	Posted - 2008.07.08 20:14:00 - [6] Originally by: Spectre3353 Blasteranis: 3x Light Ion Blaster II w/ Faction Antimatter 1x 1MN MWD II 1x Warp Disruptor II 1x X5 Prototype Web 1x Overdrive II 1x Damage Control II 1x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 2x Hobgoblin II Solid fit, although I really recommend using a named point and a T2 webifier if you aren't willing to invest in a Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor. There's usually no need to point to 24km, while there's plenty of situations you need a 90% web.
Spectre3353 Gallente The Python Cartel	Posted - 2008.07.09 13:49:00 - [7] Originally by: Caelum Dominus Originally by: Spectre3353 Blasteranis: 3x Light Ion Blaster II w/ Faction Antimatter 1x 1MN MWD II 1x Warp Disruptor II 1x X5 Prototype Web 1x Overdrive II 1x Damage Control II 1x Magnetic Field Stabilizer II 2x Hobgoblin II Solid fit, although I really recommend using a named point and a T2 webifier if you aren't willing to invest in a Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor. There's usually no need to point to 24km, while there's plenty of situations you need a 90% web. That is good advice... I think my fit is really just more of a situation of me trying to use up all the X5 webs I have sitting in my hangar :) ----- http://evenewb.blogspot.com/
Caelum Dominus Invicta.	Posted - 2008.07.09 16:09:00 - [8] Originally by: Spectre3353 [That is good advice... I think my fit is really just more of a situation of me trying to use up all the X5 webs I have sitting in my hangar :) I can relate to this!
BiggestT Caldari Fun Inc	Posted - 2008.07.09 16:19:00 - [9] crow is a great ceptor as it can hit for max dps while sitting at furthest possbile orbiting distance while still tackling (20-22km), which makes overshoot less of a hassle aswell. i never lose crows to webs, which is the only real killer thats common against ceptors. poudly annoying fc's since 2007
Caelum Dominus Invicta.	Posted - 2008.07.09 16:29:00 - [10] Originally by: BiggestT crow is a great ceptor as it can hit for max dps while sitting at furthest possbile orbiting distance while still tackling (20-22km), which makes overshoot less of a hassle aswell. i never lose crows to webs, which is the only real killer thats common against ceptors. You've not run into a decent Taranis pilot yet, then.

Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum TRUST Coalition	Posted - 2008.07.09 17:22:00 - [11] Originally by: Caelum Dominus Originally by: BiggestT crow is a great ceptor as it can hit for max dps while sitting at furthest possbile orbiting distance while still tackling (20-22km), which makes overshoot less of a hassle aswell. i never lose crows to webs, which is the only real killer thats common against ceptors. You've not run into a decent Taranis pilot yet, then. Or in fact pilots of many other ships. I've killed a fair few Crows in my Sacrilege, more so than any other inty it would seem. This ties into the earlier question about manoevers - against a fairly fast target with a web, you have to be aware of what they are doing, as simply hitting "orbit at 18km" (or whatever range you fancy) and firing ze missiles will often get you killed against competant pilots. In particular, they can use your own speed against you by MWDing in a straight line towards where you use to be - which will cause the distance between you to increase quite rapidly because the ship's control is merely trying to stay at 18km right now and doesn't realise that between the two of you your current trajectories and speeds will lead to a rapid overshooting. So if your target has a reasonable speed, this can sling you out to 25km apart or more. At this point, the target ship will hit approach, and burn towards you with his overheated web ready. At the same time, your ship's control has realised how far you are apart, and has turned you around to accelerate towards the target (or if you're flying badly, you've noticed them get out of scram range and have hit Approach yourself ). Then basically, your ship is flying at high speed roughly towards theirs, and they are screaming towards you at top speed (with the MWD overheated, more than likely). Your ship's nav computer again doesn't notice the impending doom of the situation, and won't really take any evasive action until you get inside of 18km - at which point it's generally too late for you to slow down, reverse your course and accelerate away before the other ship is within web range. And then you're webbed which = dead (a webbed Crow with its MWD still on dies in a single volley from a Sacrilege). What lessons to take from this? You have to be willing to pay attention to what's going on, and while orbiting is fine as a guideline, you must always be willing to take over manual control in those situations where it becomes clear that automatic control is not going to cut it (as above - if the other person has done the first half of this manoever, try flying parallel to them and then reestablishing the orbit once your speeds have more or less equalised). Also, don't be afraid to realise that there are some targets that are just too fast/nimble for you to hold within the 14-24km range. If they manage to get out of scram range while you're orbiting, then 1) they are almost certainly fast enough to pull off the technique above, so watch out; 2) they can probably do it again whenever they want, so you are unlikely to get the kill anyway as they'll probably just warp out, so it's not worth putting your own ship on the line. Also, it shows the benefit of agility mods over pure speed mods. I once killed a Crow fitted with nothing but overdrive injectors in the lows (which was silly anyway because of the stacking penalty), and I managed to get us 32km apart during the slingshot manouver. I think I actually overshot him when we came back together because of the speeds we were doing - which was partly because it took his Crow so long to turn around in the first place so we had a massive run-up, and partly because it took him a lot longer to change his course once he got inside his orbit window. So while adding an Inertia Stabiliser doesn't do anything to your EFT speed, it will make it much easier for you to maintain an orbit (plus you'll be able to orbit at a higher speed anyway).
Jodi Goulsti	Posted - 2008.07.09 18:51:00 - [12] Originally by: Gartel Reiman :gold: Awesome stuff.
Ryn Aldaron	Posted - 2008.07.09 21:27:00 - [13] Originally by: Gartel Reiman :genius detected: Great info, thanks for taking the time to explain some of that stuff Mr. Reiman. So to clarify further, the Crow gets webbed and he's an impending wreck. And given the weaker armor and lower DPS, even if the Crow gets a counter-web, he's still likely going to eat it. For the Malediction, with Rockets (because I can't see myself doing missiles on it really and forsaking the bonus), let's say you get webbed again in the same situation. If the enemy webs you and gets back out of web range, you're gone I'll assume. So you're going to want to be damn sure to get a counter-web off, yes? My main question at this point - It seems the Malediction is going to get webbed fairly often. What's the strategy then? Counterweb and hope you kill them first? And subsequently, MWD seems obvious on a Crow, but what about an AB on a Malediction? The MWD seems like a liability in closing the gap with the sig radius and all. Again, thanks for bearing with me all. Super info so far.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum TRUST Coalition	Posted - 2008.07.09 22:24:00 - [14] Originally by: Ryn Aldaron So to clarify further, the Crow gets webbed and he's an impending wreck. And given the weaker armor and lower DPS, even if the Crow gets a counter-web, he's still likely going to eat it. This is generally the case. If it's anything bigger than a frigate, there's no way that the Crow will either be able to kill the target before it gets destroyed (and if it doesn't have a web itself, that's its only option). If it does counter-web then it's still going to be iffy - depending on the exact speeds and angles the ships are doing when the webs go on, and the mass of the other ship, it will probably take perhaps 5-15 seconds for the Crow to get out of web range and build speed up again. And again, you'd still probably get popped by anything bigger than a frigate in this time (bear in mind that you're travelling slow enough for drones and missiles to hit you easily, your sig radius is big enough for cruiser-class missiles to do full damage and for battleship-class ones to still hit fairly hard, and you'll be travelling basically directly away from the target meaning guns will track you nigh-on perfectly - even battleship guns). So basically yeah, getting webbed is likely to result in death for a Crow. You best chance for survival if you can predict it a second or two in advance is probably to double click in the direction you're heading (in most cases, this will actually be more or less towards the other ship), and hope to burn through the other side and overshoot web range. You'll still get webbed for one 5-second cycle, but if you counterweb the other ship they will have horrendous handling and definitely won't be able to turn around and take advantage of your slower speed. Additionally, when the web comes off you're already heading in the right direction to put some space between you and your assailant. This can work too without the counterweb, but in this case there's a greater chance that the other ship can turn around and take advantage of your temporarily lowered speed to get back into web range before you build your own speed back up and get range. As for the Malediction - well, it's the same, really. It's a little bit tougher, so it can survive a bit longer, and will do slightly more damage - but would still definitely die to a non-frigate that managed to get a web on it. If you counterweb and struggle out of web range, you'll be able to take a bit more damage - so you might be able to get out with hull damage where a Crow would have popped, but it's still definitely not something I'd advise. Quote: For the Malediction, with Rockets (because I can't see myself doing missiles on it really and forsaking the bonus), let's say you get webbed again in the same situation. If the enemy webs you and gets back out of web range, you're gone I'll assume. So you're going to want to be damn sure to get a counter-web off, yes? My main question at this point - It seems the Malediction is going to get webbed fairly often. What's the strategy then? Counterweb and hope you kill them first? Well - T2 rockets are very easy to train (just a rank 1 skill to 5) and let you use Javelin rockets to hit from 20km or so. Admittedly these cut down your speed, but often they are still an option. T1/faction rockets work fine against frigate sized targets, and in fact a Malediction can be excellent against other ceptors like Crows. Other than that - try a strafing run, shoot past the target in a straight line at 9km and see if he webs you. If not (do it twice to be sure) then feel free to enter web range. Otherwise - remember the Malediction is built as a tackler, so just hold your long-range point on him for your gang! Quote: And subsequently, MWD seems obvious on a Crow, but what about an AB on a Malediction? No ABs on ceptors (outside of complexes), ever. AB = you are slower than a MWDing battlecruiser = you get webbed = you die. Also drones and missiles will hurt.
Stuart Price Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates	Posted - 2008.07.10 01:22:00 - [15] My own 2 cents: Crow: Easy to fly since it can go flat out and still use it's main weapons. Fairly fast but made of very thin paper. By the time you realise you're taking solid hits it's too late. Learn to fear decent Taranis and Crusader pilots, both of whom will blow you to pieces very quickly. The other big plus of the Crow is that it scales incredibly well with better gear. Go watch the Teamwork Crow video by Evil Edna if you want to see what a Money-No-Object Crow with an experienced pilot can do. Malediction: Faster than the Crow (assuming identical fit), can tackle from further out (meaning faster orbits and safety from heavy neuts) but at the expense of MUCH lower dps if using standard missiles. If you go with rockets+plate it becomes a missile version of the Taranis, but tougher and with much less damage. The setup I use on both is as follows: HIGHS: 3 x Standard Missile Launcher (best named you can afford - better on Crow, not so important on Maled) MEDS: 1 x 1mn MWD II 1 x Warp Disruptor II 1 x Cap Recharger II LOWS: 2 x Overdrive Injector II 1 x Nanofiber II If you can afford it and want to pimp it a little, put a gistii b-type (or even a-type if you're rich) MWD on and swap the cap recharger for a small shield extender for those "ohcrap that hurricane can track me" moments. You can also experiment with fitting a web instead of a cap recharger for tackling nanoHAC's (just pray they aren't packing a web!) and for killing other 'ceptors when your flying skills are up to it. Get used to flying manually. Getting webbed is usually death, getting neuted is the same unless your MWD cycle carries you out of point range where you can run. Flying manually also helps prevent people from working a second ship into a position where it can web you and prevents hostiles from reducing transversal and getting hits in (when you're good enough). By all means use orbit when it's safe but be ready to go manual when it's needed. As mentioned above, going one-on-one with a Taranis or Crusader pilot is incredibly risky unless you really know your stuff. Good Taranis pilots are experts in piloting so as to get you webbed, at which point you just die. Good Crusader pilots will get you within pulse range (around 17km on good setups) where they can easily track and melt you. Cruisers with decent tracking can also hit you if you don't have a high transversal. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Ryn Aldaron	Posted - 2008.07.10 01:55:00 - [16] Thanks for the replies, Mr. Reiman and Mr. Price. Both very informative, and really quite helpful. Looks like I'll need to work on my piloting quite a bit to get the hang of it. It's looking like I'll probably tinker with a Malediction. Mr. Reiman mentioned that a Malediction has a chance of escaping a web if you can counterweb and pull out of range again. Granted, this is tricky and unlikely in many cases. The tendency would be to burn straight out from the enemy ship and gain ground, I'd assume. Along that line of thought, one should actually do an expanding spiral, one that coincides with the turn direction of the enemy ship? This would prevent the "shot in the butt" effect of linear tracking and force the other ship to try and match your turn. I say this in the scenario of the Malediction vs. something bigger and slower. Obviously an Inty-vs-Inty fight is going to be a true speed duel. It'd be like clicking 'Orbit' except your silly onboard navigation wouldn't attempt to make range first and then turn, but rather make an arcing turn while gaining range. Namely, a lot of manual clicking as has been mentioned. Thoughts? Or is this a load of bunk?
Leon 026 Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2008.07.10 10:21:00 - [17] Combat Maneuvering with interceptors will be incredibly hard to get the hang of, but its the most rewarding style. Many ways and methods to go about it, but since I'm Crow-specced I'll focus with some Crow-relevant tactics for combat maneuvering : * Standard Zig-zag Best used against turret-based interceptors in a dogfight in both chase and be-chased cases. The zig-zag has the main purposes really, one is to manually increase your transversal to make it hard(er) to hit you by turret based interceptors when it comes to straight-line fights. This is where the Crow is disadvantaged most and the other turret-based interceptor will have an advantage over you. By zig-zagging and artificially increasing your transversal you make it harder for him to hit you, thus even the playing field. Secondly, because you are manually flying the zig-zag, if things go bad you are naturally flying at a different angle from the inty you are chasing / be-chased. Thus should you decide to break off, minimal inputs are needed, whereas if you were flying in a straight line and chasing the enemy interceptor you would require a lot more input to change direction and break off. Not only does this save time, it saves effort and makes you more unpredictable. Thirdly, one of the more important aspects is speed-control. If your interceptor has a speed advantage, zig zagging allows manually speed control without the need to fumble with the engine / velocity settings. Because zig zagging means you are flying through more distance total, you can keep the pace with a slower interceptor while creating an artificially high transversal without shooting past him. The most important part of zig zagging however, is that its a direct counter to the loop-the-loop tactic and provides a method to get out of such traps. * Standard Loop-the-loop While not exactly a "loop", loop-the-loop is executed by simply double-clicking back for a quick 180 maneuver. Great for breaking off when you are chasing, but also in a be-chased situation, a 180 can create an unexpected change in direction, thus allowing you to break away from the pursuer and get out of scrambling range. Due to the finicky situations of dogfights, pulling a loop-the-loop to create distance with the pursuer is often well used as high speeds coupled with reaction time will sometimes give you the opening you need to disengage safely. The more offensive minded person with short-ranged interceptor (like the ranis, rocket-crow and claw), will find that the loop-the-loop is the best way to get on top of a person. By forcing the enemy interceptor (either by goading it or utilizing the enemy's over-aggressive tendencies) to chase you, you can align the pursuer right behind you - the loop-the-loop intends on using this as an advantage to use reaction time and perhaps over-eager enemy flying to get right on top of him before he realizes what's going on. If the pursuer is a bit slow and you get on top with both webs and scram, chances are you've put him at a severe disadvantage (depending on the interceptor you're flying), and thus won the fight. Like noted above, the zig zag is used best to avoid being trapped into a loop-the-looping enemy close-ranged interceptor. * Standard Spiral Used when fighting larger odds (ie 1:8) where the enemy is mostly in larger cruiser+ size ships with heavier weaponry. Flying in a straight line if there's an eagle or similar present will definately get you killed. The spiral allows you to create artificial transversal while moving away - thus making you hard to track, but also putting distance between you and them. Unless you have an above average speed interceptor, the spiral is the safest way to get out of camps or such unfavorable situations. There's more, but running out of space, so contact me in-game if you want more interceptor specific tactics. ------- Once I was fallen, now I have wings
MITSUK0	Posted - 2008.07.10 11:23:00 - [18] An experienced crow pilot can take a blaster ranis out, it is essentially a one trick pony and once you learn to deal with it, it becomes a high probability kill. Rail ranis and crusaders are a different story since they can force low transversal, hit at range and outrun missile damage - I normally get forced to bail into warp when flying a crow vs good pilots in these setups. Basically, take a crusader for example, it will easily break 6k a sec, it can then simply fly in a straight line speed tanking missile damage, the crow cannot get into an orbit on it without bottoming out transversal and getting minced by turrets unless it is going stupidly fast. I don't fly a crow very often anymore though, prefere the rocket malediction for its combo of speed, survivability and dps at 9km. Can also load jav's for cruisernoob bashing. Throw a DC on it and compare to a ranis, then compare dps figures at the edge of web range, then compare speed values :) Very nice ship.

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