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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
JAFM
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Posted - 2009.02.10 22:50:00 -
[151]
Is ANY of this stuff going to make it into Apocrypha?
Its been a loooong time since there has been any word on this. |
Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2009.02.10 22:58:00 -
[152]
no |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.11 19:59:00 -
[153]
Originally by: Omber Zombie no
Just as I expected, not even worth expressing frustrations.
When will the current CCP game design team will retire? it seems there is some kind of dev rotation schedule. At least, we used to have some good devs before the current ones took over
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Isaac Starstriker
Amarr Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:07:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Omber Zombie no
Just as I expected, not even worth expressing frustrations.
When will the current CCP game design team will retire? it seems there is some kind of dev rotation schedule. At least, we used to have some good devs before the current ones took over
Quit crying about it. The expansion is huge but not related to ship balance. Unless your willing to take over CCP, you have no reason to complain about it.
--Isaac Isaac's Haul*Mart
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.11 20:16:00 -
[155]
they have more than enough people to work on 2 things at a time. And they had months to add the fuel bays - at least. Sorry, your excuse doesn't fly in real business world
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.11 21:48:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Isaac Starstriker
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Omber Zombie no
Just as I expected, not even worth expressing frustrations.
When will the current CCP game design team will retire? it seems there is some kind of dev rotation schedule. At least, we used to have some good devs before the current ones took over
Quit crying about it. The expansion is huge but not related to ship balance. Unless your willing to take over CCP, you have no reason to complain about it.
--Isaac
Actually, and I say this as someone who is no friend of Ephemeron, but he is correct.
Remember when Amarr were hoplessly broken? For 2 years, people mentioned what was wrong and nothing happened. Then, a Amarr whiner single handedly created a massive Amarr campaign informing the general eve public (approx 86% of eve was non-amarr at the time) of exactly what was wrong with Amarr and with thousands of posts in a short period of time, CCP relised that Amarr had a issue and then fixed it.
Aparently it turned out that CCP was balancing Amarr vs other races with damage modules etc, but forgot that Amarr lacked infinite CPU/Grid to fit said modules in a non-comedy setup. Even Laser Thorax's performed better than laser Amarr cruisers in every single way. Added to this was things like EANM effecting changes to Real world setups etc etc, but that a long story and you can read up on eve search about it.
So what is the lesson? If you dont tell people something is wrong, then you can be waiting for 2 years with nothing happening and no recognition of the issue. If any company does something wrong, how on earth can they fix it if they do not know? How can someone make something a priority if people do not express the issues regarding it?
As it stands, Black Ops is hediously broken and, in my opinion, needs to be taken to the drawing board and compleatly redone as a small gang ship baised on real world PvP. All the last CSM crew did was to use black ops to boost a transport ship.
Ephemeron, if you ever run for CSM, then you got my vote, since I guess most of the previous CSM have probebly never solo/small gang pvped unless its "Market PvP" or "Mining PvP, gotta mine em all!".
--
Billion Isk Mission |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.11 23:06:00 -
[157]
Even if I had the time, I wouldn't make a good CSM candidate. I don't really enjoy having long meetings and talking in circles about some simple issue. Also, it doesn't help that I lost confidence in CCP's performance on issues of game design.
Honestly, I just want to see the current game design team to be replaced, so we can have a fresh new start. Maybe we can get lucky with devs that actually care and don't suffer from "Goumindong" logic syndrome.
sorry for being overly negative lately
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Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2009.02.12 02:10:00 -
[158]
since this post is actually related to the issue being raised - the CSM did bring it up with CCP. It is being looked at, it's just not coming in Apocrypha.
AS for "they can work on 2 different things at the same time" you do realise how big this next expansion is right? They had 11 different teams working on things, they just couldn't fit the blackops review into this expansion in a meaningful way, so it was bumped. ----------------------
My Blog |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.12 04:41:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Omber Zombie since this post is actually related to the issue being raised - the CSM did bring it up with CCP. It is being looked at, it's just not coming in Apocrypha.
AS for "they can work on 2 different things at the same time" you do realise how big this next expansion is right? They had 11 different teams working on things, they just couldn't fit the blackops review into this expansion in a meaningful way, so it was bumped.
Alright, lets say you are right.
Do you know how long it would take an experienced game dev to add fuel bays? 1 day Sure, it may require 3 days of testing. Lets say that if all the stopped working on expansion pack and focused just on fixing game balance issues - the simple fixes, nothing major.
They could do most of it in 1 week. They could delay release of expansion by 1 week and put a lot of fixes to game balance that so many people want. It's easy. But they are not going to, it would be against their spirit to let the player be happy.
I suppose when CCP was a small company, they had the spirit of going against mainstream, they had balls. But now that spirit is probably buried under layers of bureaucracy - even if there are devs who want to make good game changes, they become incapable, just cogs in profit making machine. At least - this scenario gives some excuse for their bad judgment. I'd hate to think they actually do this on purpose.
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Isaac Starstriker
Amarr Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.02.12 06:18:00 -
[160]
Edited by: Isaac Starstriker on 12/02/2009 06:19:46
Originally by: Ephemeron
Originally by: Omber Zombie since this post is actually related to the issue being raised - the CSM did bring it up with CCP. It is being looked at, it's just not coming in Apocrypha.
AS for "they can work on 2 different things at the same time" you do realise how big this next expansion is right? They had 11 different teams working on things, they just couldn't fit the blackops review into this expansion in a meaningful way, so it was bumped.
Alright, lets say you are right.
Do you know how long it would take an experienced game dev to add fuel bays? 1 day Sure, it may require 3 days of testing. Lets say that if all the stopped working on expansion pack and focused just on fixing game balance issues - the simple fixes, nothing major.
They could do most of it in 1 week. They could delay release of expansion by 1 week and put a lot of fixes to game balance that so many people want. It's easy. But they are not going to, it would be against their spirit to let the player be happy.
I suppose when CCP was a small company, they had the spirit of going against mainstream, they had balls. But now that spirit is probably buried under layers of bureaucracy - even if there are devs who want to make good game changes, they become incapable, just cogs in profit making machine. At least - this scenario gives some excuse for their bad judgment. I'd hate to think they actually do this on purpose.
I seriously doubt it will take "3 days" to test, develop and get the fuel bay out. There is numerous balancing issues, the code writing needed to do it, and make sure fuel bays won't break the code on the game and that they will actually be recognized in the game. Also, you have to do numerous debugging checks as well.
As an amateur code writer, I know for a fact that the fuel bay idea is not simple. Even from a coding aspect.
If it took only three days to introduce fuel bays then the next expansion would have been out already.
Since it hasn't.....I'm more inclined that this idea is not so simple. Especially since they've released it on the test server and I heard there are several problems with features in the expansion. So what? Are they incompetent after all these months? Or are they human....
--Isaac
P.S. CCP used to be more cavalier with their ideas in the beginning. The only problem is, it ran them into numerous problems. Neither way of doing things is perfect. But at this point, CCP feels this is the best way. I'd suggest next time you comment about game issues, don't attack the company. Its pointless and makes your argument look weak because your attacking the company, not the issue at hand. Isaac's Haul*Mart
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Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.12 18:28:00 -
[161]
I wasn't so negative about the company before the Quantum Rise patch. I can't forgive them for going through with that horrible nerf. They showed total lack of understanding the core game balance issues, and did not respect the EVE spirit.
It's like if you took Mona Lisa painting and decided that it needs some improvement, so you paint over it to modify the face to look prettier. Sure, to you and your beer buddies it may look like a great improvement, but to people who understand art it would be horrific travesty.
I know CCP used to be great, but they changed. They still make great progress with technology, but their game design side is only diminishing. More content != better game
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Yorda
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.13 07:04:00 -
[162]
These things need more than just a fuel bay, they need a reason to be used in a gang. Hac's and recons have specific areas which they're better than cruisers (e-war or usually range/damage) but there's really no reason to use a black ops bs outside of jump bridging DST's.
They need something, I personally like increased range, tracking, or the ability to bridge any ship smaller than a BS. ---- 06:36 11Thol that we cannot do this anymore 06:36 11Thol we're not no.1 06:36 11Thol we're not best of the best 06:36 11Thol we're average with alot of titans 06:36 11Thol ****ing wake up |
Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:19:00 -
[163]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 13/02/2009 08:21:15
Originally by: Ephemeron I wasn't so negative about the company before the Quantum Rise patch. I can't forgive them for going through with that horrible nerf. They showed total lack of understanding the core game balance issues, and did not respect the EVE spirit.
It's like if you took Mona Lisa painting and decided that it needs some improvement, so you paint over it to modify the face to look prettier. Sure, to you and your beer buddies it may look like a great improvement, but to people who understand art it would be horrific travesty.
I know CCP used to be great, but they changed. They still make great progress with technology, but their game design side is only diminishing. More content != better game
Basically what the CSM guy was saying is that CCP cannot be arsed with making Black Ops a Priority vs the other exciting things they are doing. Given that there is possibly only 10 Serious Black Ops players in the whole game, I doubt they would see it high on the list of items anyway.
However it does take time to plan things. Even small changes might need to go through various teams etc in order to make it to implementation. So while the coding time might be 20 mins, their could days or weeks of red tape and ballancing changes. Coding is usually the smallest part of things like balance changes.
So Ephemeron, the question you should be asking is not 'it wont take long to fix' but rather "How far has CCP moved along resolving the issue's with black ops? Are we still at the drawing board?"
Basically, CCP have relised that Black Ops is a mostly waste of crap. They do not even have a common design to go around them - The entire black ops system was created by somebody who took Tier 1 BS and just added a jump drive. This is apparent due to the complete random nature of black ops - a EW ship, A Droanboat, A jumpdrive Typhoon and a Laser boat that lacks the cap to MWD out of a bubble, but is commonly used as a Jumpdrive Hauler. Its just a bunch of random ships with random roles.
So you see Ephemeron, the entire Black Ops line was possibly developed by some guy who probebly never solo/small gang pvp'ed and probebly took 5 minutes in balancing the ships by just re-using the stock tier 1 BS. CCP really need to scrap the entire Black Ops concept and go back to the drawing board and re-do them ground up as PvP ship. --
Billion Isk Mission |
Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2009.02.13 08:33:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Lord WarATron
Basically what the CSM guy was saying
I have a name you know
Quote: CCP really need to scrap the entire Black Ops concept and go back to the drawing board and re-do them ground up as PvP ship.
i'm not sure about scrapping them, but a serious look about what role they are supposed to fulfil and adjusting them based on that is definitely needed. That is however not a small task, so while it isn't high on the queue of things to do, it is on the queue.
At this point there is no reason for CSM to re-raise the issue as CCP already know about it, we can however keep bugging CCP to look at them and as a Sin owner, I do want them fixed, so I do point out their lack of use when I can. ----------------------
My Blog |
Ephemeron
North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.13 20:43:00 -
[165]
Quote: i'm not sure about scrapping them, but a serious look about what role they are supposed to fulfil and adjusting them based on that is definitely needed. That is however not a small task, so while it isn't high on the queue of things to do, it is on the queue.
The concept of a battleship with cloaking bonus is a good one. It's something new and it does go well with roaming pvp in hostile territory.
I would prefer to see some improvements in their ability to fit tank and gank. In a way, they would be an alternative to marauders.
I don't think CCP would go that way tho, they don't have clarity of vision nor the will to make bold moves in game design. Granted, they are good at pushing tech
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van Uber
Swedish Aerospace Inc Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:27:00 -
[166]
Edited by: van Uber on 14/02/2009 10:28:00
Originally by: Omber Zombie so while it isn't high on the queue of things to do, it is on the queue.
This is what I do not get. Why is it that whenever a introduced feature appears to be broken, it is placed in the queue as opposed to on top of the queue, where a broken, introduced feature belong.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr Black Nova Corp KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.14 12:59:00 -
[167]
Edited by: Lord WarATron on 14/02/2009 13:00:33
Originally by: Omber Zombie i'm not sure about scrapping them,
As they stand, they are the eve equivalant of a broken leg. All that has been suggested so far is basically putting a band aid on a broken leg, as its not really solving the issue, rather, its transfering the the problem.
The Sacriledge was redone three times before it became useable. Each time they compleatly scrapped it and remade the ship. The Apoc was the worst battleship in eve until they compleatly sc****d its role and remade it with fleet pvp in mind.
Nightmare is another almost broken ship that had the "clean sheet of paper" treatment. Now a nightmare is no longer a expensive low quality typhoon, but rather a intresting and useful shield tanking laser ship.
Lots of concepts get updated with modern eve play or changes in real world pvp. The Black ops concept would have worked in 2004, but its 2009 now and the type of role for black ops just does not exist anymore.
Basically, what I am saying is forget what we know previously about black ops and start again with a clean sheet of paper and redesign these ships with todays styles of pvp in mind.
--
Billion Isk Mission |
Omber Zombie
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Posted - 2009.02.14 17:06:00 -
[168]
Originally by: van Uber
This is what I do not get. Why is it that whenever a introduced feature appears to be broken, it is placed in the queue as opposed to on top of the queue, where a broken, introduced feature belong.
I can only explain from my perspective of what we've been told, but even with 11 different teams working on things, each team has a speciality. If the 'broken item' falls into field 'x' and the team that handles field 'x' is working on something else, it's moved down the queue. From that point on, Lead Game Designers decide what is next in the queue and that is what that team handles next. So, with that in mind, CSM did bring up the issue to put a higher priority of fixing pre-nerfed (which black ops was) things into mandatory review in the pipeline. As you can see from the minutes, CCP generally agreed with that idea and we're hoping it gets implemented ASAP.
As for waratron - i think we're generally agreeing that blackops need to be redone, it's just a question of how far they need to delve into what's 'wrong' with them that is adding to the holdup. Completely scrapping them and re-building from the ground up will take time, whereas trying to find a simple solution to making them work might be less time consuming. ----------------------
My Blog |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.02.15 00:20:00 -
[169]
I see the main ish as BOps as jumpers are difficult to set up, ranged far too short to be really useful, and need the fuel bay or fuel reduction bonus to prevent BOps users from tearing their own hair out.
As in-gang ships, they have less tank and less firepower than T1 BS but are 5-7 times more expensive. Losing one is like losing 10+ recons, so why uncloak, or better why jump it to the combat zone in the first place.
The result is they are marginalized out of a combat role and become a 500mil cov ops jump bridge, and for the reasons mentioned above not a very good one. ---
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Forever Alone
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Posted - 2009.02.15 05:56:00 -
[170]
yea ideally they would offer better Tank & Gank than the t1 counter parts. Lets face it, price does matter.
Alternatively, CCP could try figure out a way to reduce price of 1 of those into 200 mil range. That would also be considered a boost
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Jordan Musgrat
H A V O C Minor Threat.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:17:00 -
[171]
Needs boost. -----------
Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0... |
Mankell Grenze
GK inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:33:00 -
[172]
boost and fuel bay.
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Rajere
No Trademark
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Posted - 2009.02.17 20:43:00 -
[173]
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde I see the main ish as BOps as jumpers are difficult to set up, ranged far too short to be really useful, and need the fuel bay or fuel reduction bonus to prevent BOps users from tearing their own hair out.
As in-gang ships, they have less tank and less firepower than T1 BS but are 5-7 times more expensive. Losing one is like losing 10+ recons, so why uncloak, or better why jump it to the combat zone in the first place.
The result is they are marginalized out of a combat role and become a 500mil cov ops jump bridge, and for the reasons mentioned above not a very good one.
We PVP with them pretty much every day, whenever there is an opportunity we use them, putting them at risk, hotdropping gangs, ganking carebears & ratters, etc, and despite how often we field them, We only lose on average one blackops battleship every 2 months (Lost one in august 08, October 08, December 08, February 09). That was until last week when we lost 2 in one week :( which puts us at 5 lost so far.
So we've lost 5 blackops total in the 6 months - 1 year that our members have been actively pvping with them. We've lost 2.5 bil in BO Hulls, though during that time we've gotten hundreds of kills & collected tens of billions of ISK worth of loot from carebear/missioners wrecks so we're still firmly in the black isk wise. Losing a BOs sucks sure, but it's nothing compared to replacing dreads (which we have also lost 5) lost to lame old POS warfare, which is what we did before blackops. -------------------------- NOTR B A N A N A S |
KTOZ
Evil Plankton The Church.
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Posted - 2009.02.18 13:15:00 -
[174]
Spended to long time to lvl 5 black ops with 2ndary skills; but now i m really dissapointed about how useless and expensive they are.
Give them life so it worth to buy/fly/lose them.. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.02.19 02:36:00 -
[175]
I'm quite amused that a Sin appears less capable than a Dominix. The flavour text talks about it being a capable drone platform, yet the Sin has lower HP, lower targetting range, and less power grid than the Dominix. But it has an extra mid slot so you can fit a sensor booster to reclaim the lost targetting range, and 25m3 more drone bay so you can carry 1 spare sentry drone :)
For all the sacrifices, you can fit a covert ops cloaking device, and get a higher agility so you can do a 180 and enter warp half a second faster. I don't imagine that I'll be trying to cloak my way through a bubbled gatecamp in a battleship any time soon though :\
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Khandara Seraphim
StarHunt Systematic-Chaos
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Posted - 2009.02.19 03:51:00 -
[176]
Covert cynos should work in cynojammed systems.
Black Ops battleships, recons, covert ops, and the other ships that can use the covert jump bridge are either too expensive or too weak to take down a cyno jammer, even in numbers. This means that their strategic value isn't all that high. This ability isn't going to make them replace a large battleship fleet as the premier way to begin assaults on sov3 systems.
What this does mean is that the purpose of inserting a small team of cloaking ships into a secure enemy system is to infiltrate behind enemy lines and just cause chaos and disruption.
This is both A.) awesome and b.) actually what the black ops was intended to do. This combined with the range boost and the fuel bay would give black ops a niche without making it stupid overpowered
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The ChurchWarden
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Posted - 2009.02.19 22:28:00 -
[177]
I think that once w-space comes up that Blackops may get a boost. Since it was confirmed on a CCP panel during fanfest that cynoing in ships is intended. Of course they are still horribly broken but with the creation w-space looming we can presume that blobs will be unlikely an that smaller gang pvp can become more common. With this in mind why not gear the Black Ops ship to be more in line with the new w-space theme perhaps tweaking them to be design by various empires to explore W-space?
Just a thought... still please fix them :P
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