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Is anyone using Black Ops ships?

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Author	Topic
SuiJuris	Posted - 2008.07.17 01:10:00 - [31] Originally by: Dr Fighter the best use for them as they are, is a surprise sniper and even then only in certain and limited situation. the Sin and redeemer able sit at 50kms and unleash around 600-800 dps (guns + sentry drone IIs) on a bs seconds after decloaking You mean about 50 seconds after decloaking due to there shitty sensors.
SuiJuris	Posted - 2008.07.17 01:20:00 - [32] Originally by: Bodhisattvas Originally by: SuiJuris in short no. They have terrible scan res so your better off with a Tier 1 BS with a cloaking device. Also they have serious PG / CPU issues and cannot field as much DPS / Tank as the Tier 1 counterparts. As for the Jump Bridge what not its to limited and the cargohold is to small to hold enough fuel. That is black ops in a Nutshell. im sure theres other issues. Originally by: Bodhisattvas The above text is *****s. Not using them is anyone's guess but the stupid reasons you give are just that... stupid! You either have never flown them and read that stuff off the back of a cornflakes box. Ok stupid reasons lets recap, They can do DPS but only has a super expensive Glass cannon, that because of there shitty scan res takes as previously mentioned 45 SECONDS to lock onto a Cruiser which could of killed them before they locked it. Man these reasons sure sound stupid... Originally by:** Bodhisattvas You have to be a moron to try and fit these ships as purely offensive, either that or you have too much isk. So complaining not enough grid etc blaa blaa is just that blaa blaa. Yes you would be stupid to do this, no that does not mean there ok. So what else can you do with them? Oh well they suck for Ewar due to shitty lock times and there being better ships for the job, and there shitty at ganking plus to expensive, oh and there whole jump bridge shit is worthless because of the crappy range. I guess that leaves shiny hanger ornement. Originally by: Bodhisattvas Black ops are somewhat ** poor regarding jump range as with even maximum navigation jump skills you will probably still find yourself using jump gates due to short jump range. The fuel problem can be cured with cargo expanders, its the jump range and being in a corp that can be arsed with the logisitics of setting up ganks using black ops and recons. LMFAO, lets use our low slots on cargo expanders because moving like a snail and having no tank on a ship thats over half a bil easily is a great idea... Originally by:** Bodhisattvas Black ops fill a nice niche in the game its just that most peeps are more interested in being part of a blob when conducting their so called pvp. After all why bother to plan ganks when you can just blob folk instead ? Just another way ccp are choosing to **** the game up instigating (F)ag (W)arfare aka blobs r us, buts that's another discussion. ^^^ Garbage ^^^ Also on a side note the Pilgrim is better for the cov ops hauler role that someone mentioned.
Pesht	Posted - 2008.07.17 08:33:00 - [33] Edited by: Pesht on 17/07/2008 08:34:06 Originally by: Waxau Originally by: Pesht Show me a ship with ecm bonuses that can do 800 dps and maybe then you can say all black ops are useless. Yeah - 800 dps if its close range with torps, uses all its lows for BCU, with a crap jamming strength, no tank, takes 20 seconds to lock a BS, and oh. That was it. Jump drive/bridge is useless for any form of NORMAL, NON-******ED use. It's ability to travel quickly under cloak allows it to use close range torps, and it does 800 dps with only 2 BCU(800dps is including drones), allowing for it to fit 2 SDA in the other low slows, giving it easily better jamming strength than a scorp (it gets a BETTER ecm bonus than the scorp if you noticed). It's armor and shields is less but comparable to other BS, hardly "no tank". And finally, if you fit a sensor booster with targeting resolution scripts, you lock faster than a scorpion does even with the cloak fitted. So lets review, the only complaint you said which was valid was- oh, none of them were.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.17 09:01:00 - [34] Originally by: Pesht Edited by: Pesht on 17/07/2008 08:34:06 Originally by: Waxau Originally by: Pesht Show me a ship with ecm bonuses that can do 800 dps and maybe then you can say all black ops are useless. Yeah - 800 dps if its close range with torps, uses all its lows for BCU, with a crap jamming strength, no tank, takes 20 seconds to lock a BS, and oh. That was it. Jump drive/bridge is useless for any form of NORMAL, NON-******ED use. It's ability to travel quickly under cloak allows it to use close range torps, and it does 800 dps with only 2 BCU(800dps is including drones), allowing for it to fit 2 SDA in the other low slows, giving it easily better jamming strength than a scorp (it gets a BETTER ecm bonus than the scorp if you noticed). It's armor and shields is less but comparable to other BS, hardly "no tank". And finally, if you fit a sensor booster with targeting resolution scripts, you lock faster than a scorpion does even with the cloak fitted. So lets review, the only complaint you said which was valid was- oh, none of them were. Actually, it's base armour and shields add up to about 23k effective hitpoints. That's OK by cruiser standards, but a Raven trading fire with you will melt you before you get to try again, if you miss a jam. Perhaps even worse, as you'll be taking 10s or more to even lock it, after decloaking. Paper torp DPS on this ship looks good, but the only stuff you get to use it against is the stuff (e.g. 450m+ signature ships) that _will_ smash you in the face if you miss a jam, and your 600million ship will vanish in a puff of fail. Or if they remember to bring FoFs, or they deploy drones before you lock. Or if there's more than one. The Widow's just about usable, IMO in a standoff, fire cruise missiles and jam role. It's not much better at it than a scorp, even before you start comparing pricetags, but the cloak and the jumpdrive _can_ make the difference. They just ... don't in practice. The number of situations that cloak + sneak up on someone + decloak and mug them actually works, is ... well really very small indeed, and you would _still_ be better off just driving a Raven over them, and applying your boot to their face. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
BiggestT Caldari Fun Inc	Posted - 2008.07.17 10:01:00 - [35] Edited by: BiggestT on 17/07/2008 10:01:51 Originally by: Bodhisattvas Originally by: SuiJuris in short no. They have terrible scan res so your better off with a Tier 1 BS with a cloaking device. Also they have serious PG / CPU issues and cannot field as much DPS / Tank as the Tier 1 counterparts. As for the Jump Bridge what not its to limited and the cargohold is to small to hold enough fuel. That is black ops in a Nutshell. im sure theres other issues. The above text is *****s. Not using them is anyone's guess but the stupid reasons you give are just that... stupid! You either have never flown them and read that stuff off the back of a cornflakes box. You have to be a moron to try and fit these ships as purely offensive, either that or you have too much isk. So complaining not enough grid etc blaa blaa is just that blaa blaa. Black ops are somewhat poor regarding jump range as with even maximum navigation jump skills you will probably still find yourself using jump gates due to short jump range. The fuel problem can be cured with cargo expanders, its the jump range and being in a corp that can be arsed with the logisitics of setting up ganks using black ops and recons. Black ops fill a nice niche in the game its just that most peeps are more interested in being part of a blob when conducting their so called pvp. After all why bother to plan ganks when you can just blob folk instead ? Just another way ccp are choosing to ** the game up instigating (F)ag (W)arfare aka blobs r us, buts that's another discussion. lol the hating is on a high tonighta! but hes right that ccp shldnt decide to pre-nerf ships (yes they actually admitted to pre-erfing bombs and black-ops LOL) just because the ship may be gasp overpowered leading to a different pvp style than blob warfare! faints edit: quote typo poudly annoying fc's since 2007*
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.17 10:36:00 - [36] No, CCP's prenerfing is for an entirely different reason - players think of unexpected ways to use and abuse things. This is especially the case with 'new' game mechanics. There is far less whine with a crap ship getting boosted, than a powerful one, getting abused and then getting nerfed. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking?
Lucian Alucard Caldari Black Vice Industries	Posted - 2008.07.17 10:42:00 - [37] It will be along time 'til these and Marauders get fixed. Simply put CCP has never been too kind to battleships and has more often then not nerfed them then fixed them,only exception is the Typhoon which since its creation was such a horrifically broken ship it just begged fixing, now if they would just get a new modle for it. -_-
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2008.07.17 11:41:00 - [38] Originally by: James Lyrus Actually, it's base armour and shields add up to about 23k effective hitpoints. That's OK by cruiser standards, but a Raven trading fire with you will melt you before you get to try again, if you miss a jam. Perhaps even worse, as you'll be taking 10s or more to even lock it, after decloaking. Paper torp DPS on this ship looks good, but the only stuff you get to use it against is the stuff (e.g. 450m+ signature ships) that _will_ smash you in the face if you miss a jam, and your 600million ship will vanish in a puff of fail. Or if they remember to bring FoFs, or they deploy drones before you lock. Or if there's more than one. The Widow's just about usable, IMO in a standoff, fire cruise missiles and jam role. It's not much better at it than a scorp, even before you start comparing pricetags, but the cloak and the jumpdrive _can_ make the difference. They just ... don't in practice. The number of situations that cloak + sneak up on someone + decloak and mug them actually works, is ... well really very small indeed, and you would _still_ be better off just driving a Raven over them, and applying your boot to their face. Sad but true. So far only role it fills ok in my opinion is pilot rapid deployment but even that is somewhat iffy in this age of cyno jammers in every system. Plus it has relatively crap range so you need to do usually more than one jump to move your pilots where you need them. 'Pilot rapid deployment' in this case means moving your pilots around in space without hopping thru half the gates in region to 'get there'. Pilots are in nano-covops (to save fuel) and black-ops is max cargo expanded. If you have properly skilled cyno alts on key systems in place you can cover the average region in approx 2 minutes (and 2 jumps). Sometimes you just want to get there fast and know that you can get 'combat ship' (be it then from carrier or from local pos) in your destination. In practice even that role is somewhat 'once in a blue moon'. Good on paper, but very rare in reality.
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E White Core	Posted - 2008.07.17 12:02:00 - [39] i use my redeemer as an hauler to safly transport stuff from high sec to low sec.. my redeemer with full tech II expanders takes over 3k m3 cargo space www.garia.net
Waxau Unus - Vir Exercitus	Posted - 2008.07.17 13:31:00 - [40] Originally by: Pesht To add to what James said, a scorp + mwd + jammers will be 1. More effective 2. More speed and 3. Would have more survivability than a Widow. Whenever i can, i fly around in my Widow. Not for kills, because the opportunities where the ship is worth risking dont present themselves. Scenario 1. You wait in a belt, for ages, for a target to come along. Boredom tbh. 0.0 is slightly feasible, but tends to be too much organisation. Nubs in low sec possibly, but then again...cruiser pilot can make a cup of tea, have some handy fun, and come back and warp by the time i can get a lock. The jamming MIGHT be better on a Widow, but you bneed the lows for Sig Dist amps. So you cant armor tank it. And you need mids for ECM. So any tank you do want, either has to be 1-2 low slots, or 2-3 mid slots, otherwise you'll be losing out on the bonuses, and any 'slight' advantage it has over the scorp. The only TRUE advantage to the Widow over the scorp, is the 'raven' quality it has in damage. But even then, its tankable by most ships, and a cruise Widow doesnt deal an 'uber' amount of dps. On Sisi, the one 'role' my Widow did play rather well, was harrassing snipers. Fly towards them, get under their optimal, and jam/spam cruise/torps at them. However, that was in a 'fleet' scenario, at which point, in any real situation, you'd be primaried before you even think about uncloaking. Simply put: The Widow, as with all Black ops, dont have a role. They have no real advantage over their t1 variations, and almost no purpose to having a cloak and such. Especially not with the penalisations of the scan res, lock ranges, and so on. And seeing as how the jump ability has no function in most combat scenarios, theyre left to tasks of logistics. Which are also crap, due to the jump range. But to answer your post: Better jamming than a scorp? No. Scorps are free (payout - insurance cost = market value of ship) Therefore, no need to fit a tank, full jammers, full sig dist amps. Far more jamming than a Widow thanks. And more effective in lock time (1 sensor booster + script does NOT make it lock faster than a scorp without a sensor booster) The dps of 800 is not viable, as you will not be able to get to that range in most fights, nor want to, seeing as how you dont have a tank(will explain in the next point) and your drones will be used to most likely pop hostile drones that are on you. As for tank, yeah lol. Compariable to other bs? That dont fit tanks perhaps yeah. Lets take the Widow as the example for now, and say it has 4 jammers. 1 sensor booster. 1 warp disruptor. That leaves two slots. 1 xl booster, and 1 hardener. That is not a tank in any stretch of the imagination. Useful for tanking a few drones perhaps. Or maybe the odd Crow. Wont tank a raven, and heck - Wont tank a drake most likely. So lets switch it to Armor. 4 slots. Now, working with your 800 dps setup, that means 2 are gone from BCU, and the other two are gone from SDAs...Awesome tank. And your last point re: scan res. Check out the numbers. Check out ingame scenarios. Then get back to us. Have a hunch you dont even fly Black Ops tho... What really REALLY ticks me off, are people that make judgements on ships, in a boost/nerf scenario, where they have no idea, other than they cant fly it, has high prerequisites, and as such, feel they should nerf it, to make it on par with other ships. Heck, if you want to make it on par with other ships, feel free! The truth is, i will fly a scorp every time, over a Widow. Scorp + cloak + lock time calibration rigs (the ones that reduce the time needed to lock after uncloaking) + torps + ECM > Widow with pimped gear. And probs wont set you back more than 50 mil. As aposed to 600 mil (t2 fitted widow) So please, dont whine and ***** about ships you dont fly, or even fought. The parallel of this, is a doctor doing open heart surgery, and a janitor telling him hes doing his job wrong, and so on. (Scrubs influenced analogy :P)

Waxau Unus - Vir Exercitus	Posted - 2008.07.17 13:38:00 - [41] apparrently i wrote a wall of text, so to counteract:
Waxau Unus - Vir Exercitus	Posted - 2008.07.18 17:38:00 - [42] Right: Time to do this i think: Black Ops Proposals: 1. Allow Cov Ops Cloaks. - Nukes the speed bonus (has no real role), so goes base speed. - Removes the Scan Res problems that have been experienced - Gives Black Ops a true 'guerilla warfare' stealth apeal - DOESNT make them overpowered: A force recon, that has the movement of a BS = easy to catch when organised 2. All Black Ops to have their roles to be changed to their Recon variants: - Widow : ECM Strength, ECM Range, Same BS Bonus (Missile velocity + Rof) - Sin : Scramble Range, Sensor Damp effectiveness, Same BS Bonus (drone damage/hp, blaster damage) - Panther : Web Range/effectiveness, target painting effectiveness, Same BS bonus (large proj rof and damage) - Redeemer : Nos/neut Range (NOTE! NOT NOS AMOUNT!), Tracking Disrupting effectiveness, Same Bs Bonus (cap use reduction, turret rof) Purpose of these changes: Force Recons are somewhat balanced to a greater extent imo. The Falcon might be somewhat overpowered, and thus a battleship variant is again, a bit too strong. But for such a highly spec'd and expensive ship, i personally believe it should be a bit better than a 70 mil falcon:P (Damage ability). The Panther bonus i believe is balanced, due to the ability to act like a normal BS, but with uberstrong webs, gives it the bonus of speed (out of their web range) along with damage. Gives it a nice little combo above the rapier). The Sin is somewhat underpowered in the most part, due to the damps not being that fantastic. However, the flip side is, an 80km scramble range. Who needs tacklers when you have a BS that can do it from 80km off eh? Snipe with sentries, highs/mods as drone mods...perfect imo. Damps play a part for those not sensorboosted. The Redeemer some might as about. The reason ive suggested range rather than amount, is of the current Pilgrim crisis. The ship is seen as underpowered, due to the bonuses. The bonus of range is very useful, as it stops 'counter-neuting' along with the other close range issues/nesessities, such as tank (14km neut range = web range = death for speed tankers) along with overall tackling issues. Replacing the pilgrim's bonus with range instead of neut/nos amount would be on the road to fixing it. Likewise would be benifitial to the redeemer. Scenario here would be low slot tank, neuts in high, tracking disruptors in low. Helps the rest of the crew if getting shot at, and the redeemer can always tank. On the topic of tank: I also propose Black Ops gain a tad bit of tank. Nothing major, but something a bit better than 'cruiser' status (which, lets be fair...it is). No actual numbers, or thoughts on this - Other than, id like to be able to see my Widow atleast stay above 60% shields, when a drake launches a single volley at me :P Finally, Jump drives - We NEED to have more range, a fuel bay, AND personally, some other 'extra' for the jump bridge. As of right now, the jump bridge is rather limited. As is the jump range. My proposed change is that of (as others have suggedted) allow black ops to 'jump' to a sun of a system. By doing so, it gives an easy opportunity for folks to restrict black ops movement (laying a bubble at a sun for example), yet adds a role to Black Ops. Combined with that, it gives a Jump-drive ship the reduced need for a 'second character' scenario, where you always have to alt tab, just to play. Further to improve this, i believe Cov Ops Cynos should work in Cyno-jammed systems. This would then allow folks to jump portal covert ships behind enemy lines, in complete secrecy (as to location). This is still however possible without a Cyno (Via the Sun), however for organised groups, the latter is far more risky. I have no doubt that what ive said is overpowered, unbalanced, and so on. However, from where im sitting, there a major holes in the black ops atm. We need to start somewhere :P
Xaen Caldari Caritas.	Posted - 2008.07.18 21:24:00 - [43] Originally by: Jita Dancer Edited by: Jita Dancer on 13/07/2008 16:12:43 SK Rooster of NOTR flies one - I know, he killed my Astarte with his Sin, after neuting my tank dry in seconds his drones whacked me so hard my teeth were ringing. They are viable, just expensive and fragile. Go to Syndicate and pick a scrap with him if you think they are weak - he gives free lessons in losing your ship... A domi could accomplish the same thing at 1/15th the cost. I would happily take on a black ops in my domi any day. Especially the sin, its bonuses are garbage. - Support fixing the UI\|Suggest Jita fixes\|Compact logs
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.07.18 22:32:00 - [44] Originally by: Waxau Right: Time to do this i think: Black Ops Proposals: 1. Allow Cov Ops Cloaks. - Nukes the speed bonus (has no real role), so goes base speed. - Removes the Scan Res problems that have been experienced - Gives Black Ops a true 'guerilla warfare' stealth apeal - DOESNT make them overpowered: A force recon, that has the movement of a BS = easy to catch when organised 2. All Black Ops to have their roles to be changed to their Recon variants: - Widow : ECM Strength, ECM Range, Same BS Bonus (Missile velocity + Rof) - Sin : Scramble Range, Sensor Damp effectiveness, Same BS Bonus (drone damage/hp, blaster damage) - Panther : Web Range/effectiveness, target painting effectiveness, Same BS bonus (large proj rof and damage) - Redeemer : Nos/neut Range (NOTE! NOT NOS AMOUNT!), Tracking Disrupting effectiveness, Same Bs Bonus (cap use reduction, turret rof) I favour 1 personally, you cannot do covert work when to move anywhere you have to be visible on scanner, that is just idiocy. They should perhaps still have very low scan res as now, so that they cannot solopwn most targets - need a tackler to hold em down till you can apply the pain, which supports their (intended?) role, as dps in cloaking gangs.
Waxau Unus - Vir Exercitus	Posted - 2008.07.18 22:49:00 - [45] Actually Captator, both of those were what i want :D Together. Black ops need an overhall. simple as that. But the whole 'not-cloaked-when-warping' removes any 'MWHA! Here i am! Pewpewpew' value. Its a stealth bomber scenario.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.07.18 22:58:00 - [46] Originally by: Waxau Actually Captator, both of those were what i want :D Together. Black ops need an overhall. simple as that. But the whole 'not-cloaked-when-warping' removes any 'MWHA! Here i am! Pewpewpew' value. Its a stealth bomber scenario. How about force and combat equivalent variations of blackops, however, both can use covops cloak - one lot have damage/range/weapon bonuses, and other have racial ewar bonuses? It is worse than stealth bomber - if you see stealth bomber on scan, you might go looking for it, if you see blackops on scan, you go hollering in intel/alliance/corp for mates to form up a gang and then actively seek to blockade/gank it.
Waxau Unus - Vir Exercitus	Posted - 2008.07.18 23:17:00 - [47] Originally by: Captator Originally by: Waxau Actually Captator, both of those were what i want :D Together. Black ops need an overhall. simple as that. But the whole 'not-cloaked-when-warping' removes any 'MWHA! Here i am! Pewpewpew' value. Its a stealth bomber scenario. How about force and combat equivalent variations of blackops, however, both can use covops cloak - one lot have damage/range/weapon bonuses, and other have racial ewar bonuses? It is worse than stealth bomber - if you see stealth bomber on scan, you might go looking for it, if you see blackops on scan, you go hollering in intel/alliance/corp for mates to form up a gang and then actively seek to blockade/gank it. Well ive always thought that BO should be Recon sized BS tbh - A Force BO, and a Combat BO would be fine, but i dont think both should be able to warp cloaked. Removes variation (Note the difference between the Falcon and Rook) Needs a way to distinguish, without messing the other up.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.07.18 23:39:00 - [48] Originally by: Waxau Originally by: Captator Originally by: Waxau Actually Captator, both of those were what i want :D Together. Black ops need an overhall. simple as that. But the whole 'not-cloaked-when-warping' removes any 'MWHA! Here i am! Pewpewpew' value. Its a stealth bomber scenario. How about force and combat equivalent variations of blackops, however, both can use covops cloak - one lot have damage/range/weapon bonuses, and other have racial ewar bonuses? It is worse than stealth bomber - if you see stealth bomber on scan, you might go looking for it, if you see blackops on scan, you go hollering in intel/alliance/corp for mates to form up a gang and then actively seek to blockade/gank it. Well ive always thought that BO should be Recon sized BS tbh - A Force BO, and a Combat BO would be fine, but i dont think both should be able to warp cloaked. Removes variation (Note the difference between the Falcon and Rook) Needs a way to distinguish, without messing the other up. The divide I propose is along a different line - one can do the racial ewar, one can do the racial damage, instead of one being ewar and cloak, and the other ewar and dps (as is the case with recons). eg: Widow (ewar version): jam strength/range bonuses for BS skill, cloak bonus and missile damage/rof bonus on BO skill (note damage bonus is on the BO skill - reduces dps from all but the most hardcore of pilots, and even at 5, dps lower than combat version) Widow (combat version): missile rof/velocity/damage on BS skill (pick 2), then cloak bonus and jam strength bonus on BO skill (again at BO 5 the ships overlap to a degree - jam strength is limited unless BO 5, and even then range is lower) This would be a good way of generating 2 flavours of black ops ships I think. If you think it is worthwhile I can flesh out the concept with the other racial BOs
Waxau Unus - Vir Exercitus	Posted - 2008.07.19 00:07:00 - [49] Yeah does sound quite good tbh - currently Combat Recons can fit cloaks without any major penalties i believe (not tried it tbh). If Black ops however had their current cloak form for the combat versions, and cov ops for the recon ew ones - I think that would be effective, deffo. But as of right now, neither matter as CCP are still playing Age of Conan i guess.
Deva Blackfire D00M.	Posted - 2008.07.19 00:23:00 - [50] Even if not any of those 2 above, check those: 1. ability to cyno into jammed systems 2. longer jump range (carrier one imo) 3. less fuel consumption (both for jump and bridging) + fuel bay 4. remove stupid cloak penalty (less sig) With those 4 at once even redeemer would be somewhat better off than it is now.

Waxau Unus - Vir Exercitus	Posted - 2008.07.19 00:27:00 - [51] I know im a naughty boy, but seeing as how i doubt CCP will look at yet another Black ops thread in here, and would look at this one instead, im gonna hotlink it: http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=819294 Check it out those who have BO knowledge, and give your opinions :) THE TIME FOR B.O HAS COME! B.O - Fear it. Even if you have Lynx.
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.07.19 00:32:00 - [52] I have edited my idea post to clarify my proposed variants, and will edit this post later with ideas for the other black ops variants.
oniplE Loving Pirates	Posted - 2008.07.19 01:04:00 - [53] Edited by: oniplE on 19/07/2008 01:04:28 The bonuses on these ships are just stupid. For example: a Sin has two damage bonuses, an agility and cloaked speed bonus. What the hell am I going to do with the damage bonuses? Shoot people with my "Cardboard, 4 turret Sin" worth half a bil? Hell no? Why not remove the damage bonuses and change them into something that actually helps it in its Black Ops role? It should have been positioned as a platform for "Black Ops" operations, not some weird hybrid DPS + Cov Ops ship making it mediocre at both roles. I say remove a lot of DPS from these ships and give them some proper support bonuses for covert operations. x
Kaaii Caldari PixelJuice Design Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2008.07.19 14:19:00 - [54] Marking this thread for later finger pointing... According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there. kieron Director of Community Relations,
Gimpb	Posted - 2008.07.19 14:48:00 - [55] Edited by: Gimpb on 19/07/2008 14:49:21 Something as simple as a rig allowing any sub-cap to use the portal could make it pretty useful. I guess the idea is to use it to move stealth bombers, cov ops, and recons around. But the only one of those ships without a special cloaking ability is the combat recon--two light years worth of jumps for a cloaking ship isn't exactly a big deal. It's probably less risky than having a cov ops decloak to cyno (thus making is probe-able) in a hot system. It does seem like it could potentially be good for moving people around though; can the black ops portal to a normal cyno out of currosity? I could see a cap fleet bringing along its support fleet ships in the carrier bays and the support fleet players via the jump portal. It's still very short range though, it might be nice if it could port stuff very long distances.
Rajere No Trademark The OSS	Posted - 2008.07.19 19:29:00 - [56] yeah you can jump and portal to either covert cyno or regular cyno. Quote: Posted - 2008.07.18 21:24:00 - [43] - QuoteReport SK Rooster of NOTR flies one - I know, he killed my Astarte with his Sin, after neuting my tank dry in seconds his drones whacked me so hard my teeth were ringing. They are viable, just expensive and fragile. Go to Syndicate and pick a scrap with him if you think they are weak - he gives free lessons in losing your ship... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- A domi could accomplish the same thing at 1/15th the cost. I would happily take on a black ops in my domi any day. Especially the sin, its bonuses are garbage. Actually, it couldn't. We all know the blackops launched pre-nerfed, and in their current state there's only a few reasons to bother with using them, and that's their ability to do sneaky ninja stuff like jump to a covert cyno. In their current state you can't jump into a cynojammed system, which basically eliminates all the 0.0 systems with the kind of targets you'd want to jump/jumpbridge your gang into anyway. The only players in the un-cynojammed systems are cloaking ravens ninja ratting. So the only appeal for blackops as they currently exist is for players in npc 0.0/low sec. Blackops allowed outlaws the ability to get into all those little pockets of low sec space surrounded by high sec systems (this is the reason SK got a blackops), Since the change to faction navy not scramming outlaws in highsec, a blackops is no longer needed (but it is safer of course). The other thing it allows you to do is bypass all the systems between you and your neighbor's back systems so you can kill their NPCers. Again this only works (as it stands now) for non-cynojammed systems, which is all of npc 0.0 space. Now in this particular case, the cheetah cyno alt is in those systems all the time looking for targets anyway, probing for missioners/plexes, etc. if there's a bunch of targets in space or it looks like they have a gang ready to fight, we'll just fly our gang over to meet them. But for the lone target of opportunity the blackops does exactly what it's supposed to do. It's just another tool available for people to use. All the the residents of syndicate/solitude know who mega is. They know that if they are in a mission or plex, he is already in the process of probing you out. They better know that if they're just sitting in some safespot, that chances are his cheetah is already sitting next to you cloaked. Now, instead of flying a domi however many jumps and getting reported however many times in their intel channels, the cov ops decloaks by bumping into you knocking you out of alignment, puts a point on you and lights a cyno. What comes through just depends on what you have and how good you are at hiding your backup, could be just a black ops, could be several blackops with alot of recon/stealth bomber support. either way, GG. NOTR How to Fail at Eve
Battlestar Galactica Field Operations Group	Posted - 2008.07.19 19:42:00 - [57] WAXAU is a god for these ideas
Rajere No Trademark The OSS	Posted - 2008.07.20 03:02:00 - [58] except for the part about removing the speed bonus while cloaked. Black ops have nice agility but crappy tanks compared to regular BS, and being able to align and get up to speed while cloaked enables you to instawarp when you drop cloak. it's one of the Black Ops more useful abilities. NOTR How to Fail at Eve
ElCoCo KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2008.07.20 08:00:00 - [59] Edited by: ElCoCo on 20/07/2008 08:01:03 Originally by: Rajere Black ops have nice agility but crappy tanks compared to regular BS They actualy have half the agility of their t1 counterparts I won't even mention their mass Prenerf for the win, we don't want to go all nano on our 500mil ships hehe Boink!
Captator Universal Securities	Posted - 2008.07.20 08:41:00 - [60] Originally by: Rajere except for the part about removing the speed bonus while cloaked. Black ops have nice agility but crappy tanks compared to regular BS, and being able to align and get up to speed while cloaked enables you to instawarp when you drop cloak. it's one of the Black Ops more useful abilities. don't need the speed bonus if they can covops cloak

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