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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.07.20 08:49:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Pesht
Edited by: Pesht on 17/07/2008 08:34:06
Originally by: Waxau
Originally by: Pesht
Show me a ship with ecm bonuses that can do 800 dps and maybe then you can say all black ops are useless.
Yeah - 800 dps if its close range with torps, uses all its lows for BCU, with a crap jamming strength, no tank, takes 20 seconds to lock a BS, and oh. That was it. Jump drive/bridge is useless for any form of NORMAL, NON-******ED use.
It's ability to travel quickly under cloak allows it to use close range torps, and it does 800 dps with only 2 BCU(800dps is including drones), allowing for it to fit 2 SDA in the other low slows, giving it easily better jamming strength than a scorp (it gets a BETTER ecm bonus than the scorp if you noticed).
It's armor and shields is less but comparable to other BS, hardly "no tank".
And finally, if you fit a sensor booster with targeting resolution scripts, you lock faster than a scorpion does even with the cloak fitted.
So lets review, the only complaint you said which was valid was- oh, none of them were.
You're missing one incredibly downside: cost. Yep, one can finance 8 - 10 fitted scorpions for the price on one Widow. For the extreme price discrepency what do you get? A ship that does 200 more DPS and less ability to absorb damage plus natively reduced locking abilities lending little credibility to it's ECM capabilities if other ECM boats are lurking.
Sure you can overcome lots of these issues but you're making an awful lot of compromises for 200 DPS and a jump drive.
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Waxau
Unus - Vir Exercitus
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Posted - 2008.07.20 12:16:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Rajere
except for the part about removing the speed bonus while cloaked. Black ops have nice agility but crappy tanks compared to regular BS, and being able to align and get up to speed while cloaked enables you to instawarp when you drop cloak. it's one of the Black Ops more useful abilities.
With a covert ops cloak, they'll go their base speed, which true...wont be AS FAST as they are now whilst cloaked, but with being able to warp cloaked, you'll be able to warp out, and warp back to a belt at the range etc you need, rather than the general 'weeeeee 300ms.....)
I only gain 50ms or something cloaked. With a cov ops cloak, you dont need to 'drop the cloak' to warp, as you can warp whnever you like.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.07.20 15:18:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 20/07/2008 15:21:15
Originally by: ElCoCo
Edited by: ElCoCo on 20/07/2008 08:01:03
Originally by: Rajere
Black ops have nice agility but crappy tanks compared to regular BS
They actualy have half the agility of their t1 counterparts 
I won't even mention their mass 
Prenerf for the win, we don't want to go all nano on our 500mil ships hehe
And funny part is: panther is probably the fastest battleship in game (and one of fastest ships too). In record breaking setup (implants, deadspace mods, boosters etc) it can hit over 50km/s (cloaked with estamel cloak). The "cheap" combat mode can hit 10-15km/s easy (cloaked). And for ppl who say speed is not important: oh yes it is. With 10+km/s you can easily bump cap ships 20-40km off station.
Quote:
I only gain 50ms or something cloaked. With a cov ops cloak, you dont need to 'drop the cloak' to warp, as you can warp whnever you like.
Fly a panther. Difference (at lv5) is almost 2x the speed (panther ucloaked 5km/s, cloaked 8,8km/s with DG cloak). Estamel cloak brings that to 10km/s but thats too expensive - DG is enough.
When it comes to redeemer tho its... ugh. That ship is way slower than geddon even in nano+cloak mode.
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Bodhisattvas
Wife BEATERS
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Posted - 2008.07.20 17:04:00 -
[64]
Originally by: White Ronin
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
The above text is *******s.
Not using them is anyone's guess but the stupid reasons you give are just that... stupid!
You either have never flown them and read that stuff off the back of a cornflakes box.
You have to be a moron to try and fit these ships as purely offensive, either that or you have too much
isk. So complaining not enough grid etc blaa blaa is just that blaa blaa.
Black ops are somewhat **** poor regarding jump range as with even maximum navigation jump skills you will
probably still find yourself using jump gates due to short jump range.
The fuel problem can be cured with cargo expanders, its the jump range and being in a corp that can be arsed with
the logisitics of setting up ganks using black ops and recons.
Black ops fill a nice niche in the game its just that most peeps are more interested in being part of a blob
when conducting their so called pvp. After all why bother to plan ganks when you can just blob folk instead ?
Just another way ccp are choosing to **** the game up instigating (F)ag (W)arfare aka blobs r us, buts that's
another discussion.
WTF are you smoking?
Its not the grid thats the core problem. Not the tank or nothing.
The first and foremost problem with these ships is their use in combat in A PVP GAME!
A scan resolution that is cut to 60% or even 79% and a "no delay on targeting due to sensor calibration" is worthless crap since it takes you about 45 seconds to target cruisers. Anyone still around after you actually achieve lock WANTS to be there.
Its only use after the addition of a expanded fuel bay or whatever will be as the most expensive covert hauler in the universe. THats the "niche" you are talking about.
And what is this crap about people who are pro-blob being the whiners. The ship has no functionality solo except in rare situations where you catch a weak ship alone and far away from help. Its only chance to not go BOOM is to be part of the blob and you are talking about expanding its fuel bay or reduce consumption to make this its viable role.
Trust me. I am solo and I would LOVE to be able to take that baby for a spin.
But at an uninsured half billion before fittings I would do better to buy lint and wait for the fun to role in.
Watch that barrel it has monkeys... yeah.
The ONLY one of them that has a chance of being worth damn is the Caldari cause of its ecm bonus. The rest lack tank, lack targeting ability and have reduced firepower.
Please, blah blah all you want they are a PVP ship in a PVP game that lack the ability to realistically engage in PVP.
Your "ideas" of simple fixes are simply your need for a covert hauler and nothing more.
Yes you do blaah blaah a lot.
Don't get the point **** nuts now you do ? Pvp all you want in a black ops but after you lose the
first few the jokes on you. You wanna go out and solo in a ship designed to pvp in a support role then
you be the stupid then.
The ships works now but poorly due to lack of range and fuel capacity, anything else ccp want to (if they ever bother)
improve is all good.
Hell I managed to read the rest your drivel but you still wouldn't get the point even after ****ting you with
a 2 by 4 several times so I won't bother sweetpea.
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Bodhisattvas
Wife BEATERS
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Posted - 2008.07.20 17:17:00 -
[65]
Originally by: SuiJuris
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
Originally by: SuiJuris
in short no. They have terrible scan res so your better off with a Tier 1 BS with a cloaking device. Also they have serious PG / CPU issues and cannot field as much DPS / Tank as the Tier 1 counterparts. As for the Jump Bridge what not its to limited and the cargohold is to small to hold enough fuel.
That is black ops in a Nutshell.
im sure theres other issues.
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
The above text is *******s.
Not using them is anyone's guess but the stupid reasons you give are just that... stupid!
You either have never flown them and read that stuff off the back of a cornflakes box.
Ok stupid reasons lets recap, They can do DPS but only has a super expensive Glass cannon, that because of there shitty scan res takes as previously mentioned 45 SECONDS to lock onto a Cruiser which could of killed them before they locked it.
Man these reasons sure sound stupid...
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
You have to be a moron to try and fit these ships as purely offensive, either that or you have too much
isk. So complaining not enough grid etc blaa blaa is just that blaa blaa.
Yes you would be stupid to do this, no that does not mean there ok. So what else can you do with them? Oh well they suck for Ewar due to shitty lock times and there being better ships for the job, and there shitty at ganking plus to expensive, oh and there whole jump bridge shit is worthless because of the crappy range. I guess that leaves shiny hanger ornement.
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
Black ops are somewhat **** poor regarding jump range as with even maximum navigation jump skills you will
probably still find yourself using jump gates due to short jump range.
The fuel problem can be cured with cargo expanders, its the jump range and being in a corp that can be arsed with
the logisitics of setting up ganks using black ops and recons.
LMFAO, lets use our low slots on cargo expanders because moving like a snail and having no tank on a ship thats over half a bil easily is a great idea...
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
Black ops fill a nice niche in the game its just that most peeps are more interested in being part of a blob
when conducting their so called pvp. After all why bother to plan ganks when you can just blob folk instead ?
Just another way ccp are choosing to **** the game up instigating (F)ag (W)arfare aka blobs r us, buts that's
another discussion.
^^^ Garbage ^^^
Also on a side note the Pilgrim is better for the cov ops hauler role that someone mentioned.
My reply is as deserving in respect and dirctly proportional to the shite you took
time to compose.
Shut the **** up you moron you have the misguided notion that these ships were designed to solo.
They are not **** nuts hence several of the properties built into the ship are there exactly so
people do not solo with them.
They were designed to compliment covert missions into enemy terrority not be solo uber ships.
Again hence the ships properties, but at the same time it seems ccp were worried that they might be
too powerful so even the covert properties of the ship were weakened.
Damn it your either a ****** of immense proportion who has never flown the ship but merely right click
and read properties or your just trying to wind folk up.
You want an offensive battleship then stick to your dominix and put a cloak on it or something... happy now sweetpea ?
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.07.20 17:56:00 -
[66]
Bodhi, what is it that you see blackops role on a battlefield as?
I am agreed that they need more jumprange and a bigger fuelbay, but think the problem is more deep rooted than that - the ships don't have much useful function in a recon gang that I see (sure some extra dps is nice...), and they cannot operate truly covertly as they cannot move around without being visible on scanner.
I respect you calling it as you see it, but can you provide us with a bit more information?
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.20 18:02:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
And funny part is: panther is probably the fastest battleship in game (and one of fastest ships too). In record breaking setup (implants, deadspace mods, boosters etc) it can hit over 50km/s (cloaked with estamel cloak). The "cheap" combat mode can hit 10-15km/s easy (cloaked). And for ppl who say speed is not important: oh yes it is. With 10+km/s you can easily bump cap ships 20-40km off station.
Indeed, bumping is the only thing I've done with my panther though.
You need a full snakeset to compensate for the inertia stabilisers you need to have to make the ship viable for anything else as it's too, too slugish. The machariel is much more manouverable but the panther sort of compensates by having a significant ammount of it's DPS (5xhvy drones) not be affected by tracking.
Boink! |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2008.07.20 18:42:00 -
[68]
Originally by: ElCoCo
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
And funny part is: panther is probably the fastest battleship in game (and one of fastest ships too). In record breaking setup (implants, deadspace mods, boosters etc) it can hit over 50km/s (cloaked with estamel cloak). The "cheap" combat mode can hit 10-15km/s easy (cloaked). And for ppl who say speed is not important: oh yes it is. With 10+km/s you can easily bump cap ships 20-40km off station.
Indeed, bumping is the only thing I've done with my panther though.
You need a full snakeset to compensate for the inertia stabilisers you need to have to make the ship viable for anything else as it's too, too slugish. The machariel is much more manouverable but the panther sort of compensates by having a significant ammount of it's DPS (5xhvy drones) not be affected by tracking.
Well not flyin one myself (have only amarr and caldari BS5) butRL friend uses one so i've seen it in action. And tbh its just like cheap machariel - and works well too. Good DPS, decent tank and yeah - bumping speed which is very important for ganking :) But still IMO its the best blackops in game, ship which actually works like t2 (that is: better than t1) where other blackops are worse than t1 counterparts.
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ElCoCo
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.20 19:19:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Well not flyin one myself (have only amarr and caldari BS5) butRL friend uses one so i've seen it in action. And tbh its just like cheap machariel - and works well too. Good DPS, decent tank and yeah - bumping speed which is very important for ganking :) But still IMO its the best blackops in game, ship which actually works like t2 (that is: better than t1) where other blackops are worse than t1 counterparts.
Well it realy performs much worse than a machariel, it's very very slugish so it can't accelerate fast enough to get out of difficult situations. And it's hardly cheap compared to the machariel since you actualy need more agility/weight decreasing stuff to make it comfortably work and the mach has an extra rigslot for that.
I do fly them all but I've only bought a panther on TQ. Not impressed one bit... well, the widow is fun-ish to fly but you're a real bullet magnet so meh.
Boink! |
Bodhisattvas
Wife BEATERS
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Posted - 2008.07.21 02:55:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Captator
Bodhi, what is it that you see blackops role on a battlefield as?
I am agreed that they need more jumprange and a bigger fuelbay, but think the problem is more deep rooted than that - the ships don't have much useful function in a recon gang that I see (sure some extra dps is nice...), and they cannot operate truly covertly as they cannot move around without being visible on scanner.
I respect you calling it as you see it, but can you provide us with a bit more information?
Ok firstly thanks for not flaming as my 2 previous posts were my version of diplomacy in the face of stupidity.
Role primarily is introducing a covert recon fleet behind enemy lines, pretty much as ccp describe. Low sec 0.0 where ever
ship use is permitted.
Personaly I can see this as viable even in the black ops present state but..... due to lack of usable jump range and
fuel capacity the black op at the moment is not realising it's full potential.
The fuel problem can be rectified to an extent by cramming lows with cargo expanders but this is not really a perfect
scenario. The range problem is more serious as even with jump calibration 5 it is not possible to cyno to even a system right
next door, otelen to huola being an example. Half a billion isk worth of ship and it can't use its primary function without
having to use a jump gate instead.
I own and use a sin, its setup stolen from an early battleclinic setup. The only modification being minor ones to compliment
the fact the sin is a drone boat, sentries etc. I'd still prefer the option to fit a full tank instead of a low full of expanders and
even then no way would I ever consider it in a 1 to 1 scenario unless it was forced upon me.
My sin is basically a glorified recon stealth bomber taxi but that does not lessen it role, once the dust settles and situation
permits then it can be introduced into the battle but only at range and at my discretion.
Personally if peeps want to go solo with it then so be it, but your working with a sub standard battleship (from a offensive view)from the
onset and asking ccp to un-nerf something which was designed for a totally different role is setting yourself up for
dissapointment.
With regard to "they cannot operate truly covertly as they cannot move around without being visible on scanner."
Hmmm one scenario might be jumping a low sec camp. Common for camps to have scouts on gates on most surrounding systems
just so they can see prey or blobs coming to take them out.
Alt covert cyno falcon pilot enters target system and positions himself say 50km from gate with camp, pops covert cyno then sin creates
jump bridge and recons right next to him jump to alt. A motley collection of rapier's,arazu's pilgrim's and perhaps
another falcon, chuck some stealth bombers in for good measure. I suggest cyno falcon primarily as he might need to defend
himself for 30 sec or so. Ideally you could have a few bs a couple of jumps out for extra damage or for jump outs.
Ok 50km range would require faction ew at least so initial cyno range could be modified but there is no need for the sin to be
in system at that point so cloak type is irrelevant in my opinion. Sin is ideally going to be a few jumps out in a deep safe cloaked.
Don't get me wrong I would love a full cloak on the beast but giving its role as i see it then its not really a requirement.
This is the most obvious scenario i can think but am sure that others have much more ingenius uses.
0.0 use also needs addressed due to cyno jammers etc as well as the fuel and jump range.
I have heard peeps suggest it could have an extra function in disabling cyno jammers for 0.0
Not really a fan of 0.0 as weird blobtastic things that frankly scare the b'jeez out of me
when I have lived out there in the past.
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