Originally by: SuiJuris

---

in short no. They have terrible scan res so your better off with a Tier 1 BS with a cloaking device. Also they have serious PG / CPU issues and cannot field as much DPS / Tank as the Tier 1 counterparts. As for the Jump Bridge what not its to limited and the cargohold is to small to hold enough fuel.

That is black ops in a Nutshell.

im sure theres other issues.

---

Originally by: Rachel Vend

---

... with 100% reliability in most cases ...

---

Originally by: Franga

---

People are still using them, however. Just rare. Someone in my corp popped a faction fitted one the other day. Jerk got 1500 points for it even though there were about 8 people on the mail.

---

Originally by: achoura

---

Suppose it's ironic, but they make better ratters than pvpers , actually marauders make better pvp ships that b-ops

---

Originally by: CCP Oveur

---

The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.

---

Originally by: Balla Gak

---

Anyone want to sell me there sin?
I tend to believe these ships are awesome at help and response times to troubled team mates.
That and to a low sec pirate roaming and doing the whole 'warp cloak' trick should make them quite appealing tbh.

---

Originally by: Bartholomeus Crane

---

When CCP will allow deep space transports to use the black ops jump gate as well, then these ships will become useful.

Until then, no.

---

Billion Isk Mission

Originally by: SuiJuris

---

in short no. They have terrible scan res so your better off with a Tier 1 BS with a cloaking device. Also they have serious PG / CPU issues and cannot field as much DPS / Tank as the Tier 1 counterparts. As for the Jump Bridge what not its to limited and the cargohold is to small to hold enough fuel.

That is black ops in a Nutshell.

im sure theres other issues.

---

Originally by: Bodhisattvas

---

The above text is *******s.
Not using them is anyone's guess but the stupid reasons you give are just that... stupid!
You either have never flown them and read that stuff off the back of a cornflakes box.

You have to be a moron to try and fit these ships as purely offensive, either that or you have too much
isk. So complaining not enough grid etc blaa blaa is just that blaa blaa.

Black ops are somewhat **** poor regarding jump range as with even maximum navigation jump skills you will
probably still find yourself using jump gates due to short jump range.

The fuel problem can be cured with cargo expanders, its the jump range and being in a corp that can be arsed with
the logisitics of setting up ganks using black ops and recons.

Black ops fill a nice niche in the game its just that most peeps are more interested in being part of a blob
when conducting their so called pvp. After all why bother to plan ganks when you can just blob folk instead ?

Just another way ccp are choosing to **** the game up instigating (F)ag (W)arfare aka blobs r us, buts that's
another discussion.

---

Originally by: Jita Dancer

---

Edited by: Jita Dancer on 13/07/2008 16:12:43
SK Rooster of NOTR flies one - I know, he killed my Astarte with his Sin, after neuting my tank dry in seconds his drones whacked me so hard my teeth were ringing. They are viable, just expensive and fragile.

---

Originally by: White Ronin

---

The ONLY one of them that has a chance of being worth damn is the Caldari cause of its ecm bonus. The rest lack tank, lack targeting ability and have reduced firepower.

.

---

Originally by: Jita Dancer

---

Edited by: Jita Dancer on 13/07/2008 16:12:43
SK Rooster of NOTR flies one - I know, he killed my Astarte with his Sin, after neuting my tank dry in seconds his drones whacked me so hard my teeth were ringing. They are viable, just expensive and fragile.

Go to Syndicate and pick a scrap with him if you think they are weak - he gives free lessons in losing your ship...

---

Quote:

---

Originally by: Jita Dancer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by: Jita Dancer on 13/07/2008 16:12:43
SK Rooster of NOTR flies one - I know, he killed my Astarte with his Sin, after neuting my tank dry in seconds his drones whacked me so hard my teeth were ringing. They are viable, just expensive and fragile.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Killing command ship which is cap-depenant using all out neut ship is nothing to be too prout of tbh. Any other neut ship (even neut rokh with torps...) would do the same.

---

Originally by: Pesht

---

Show me a ship with ecm bonuses that can do 800 dps and maybe then you can say all black ops are useless.

---

Originally by: Rajere

---

Quote:

---

Originally by: Jita Dancer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by: Jita Dancer on 13/07/2008 16:12:43
SK Rooster of NOTR flies one - I know, he killed my Astarte with his Sin, after neuting my tank dry in seconds his drones whacked me so hard my teeth were ringing. They are viable, just expensive and fragile.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Killing command ship which is cap-depenant using all out neut ship is nothing to be too prout of tbh. Any other neut ship (even neut rokh with torps...) would do the same.

---

http://storietime.com/gsy/killboard/?a=kill_related&kll_id=20620
suicide cyno-cheetah, killed a Nighthawk and an Astarte at the same time....

And yeah, gets him out of his Moa. Wait he kills ravens with his Moa.

---

Originally by: Dr Fighter

---

the best use for them as they are, is a surprise sniper and even then only in certain and limited situation.

the Sin and redeemer able sit at 50kms and unleash around 600-800 dps (guns + sentry drone IIs) on a bs seconds after decloaking

---

Originally by: Bodhisattvas

---

Originally by: SuiJuris

---

in short no. They have terrible scan res so your better off with a Tier 1 BS with a cloaking device. Also they have serious PG / CPU issues and cannot field as much DPS / Tank as the Tier 1 counterparts. As for the Jump Bridge what not its to limited and the cargohold is to small to hold enough fuel.

That is black ops in a Nutshell.

im sure theres other issues.

---

Originally by: Bodhisattvas

---

The above text is *******s.
Not using them is anyone's guess but the stupid reasons you give are just that... stupid!
You either have never flown them and read that stuff off the back of a cornflakes box.

---

Ok stupid reasons lets recap, They can do DPS but only has a super expensive Glass cannon, that because of there shitty scan res takes as previously mentioned 45 SECONDS to lock onto a Cruiser which could of killed them before they locked it.

Man these reasons sure sound stupid...

Originally by: Bodhisattvas

---

You have to be a moron to try and fit these ships as purely offensive, either that or you have too much
isk. So complaining not enough grid etc blaa blaa is just that blaa blaa.

---

Yes you would be stupid to do this, no that does not mean there ok. So what else can you do with them? Oh well they suck for Ewar due to shitty lock times and there being better ships for the job, and there shitty at ganking plus to expensive, oh and there whole jump bridge shit is worthless because of the crappy range. I guess that leaves shiny hanger ornement.

Originally by: Bodhisattvas

---

Black ops are somewhat **** poor regarding jump range as with even maximum navigation jump skills you will
probably still find yourself using jump gates due to short jump range.

The fuel problem can be cured with cargo expanders, its the jump range and being in a corp that can be arsed with
the logisitics of setting up ganks using black ops and recons.

---

LMFAO, lets use our low slots on cargo expanders because moving like a snail and having no tank on a ship thats over half a bil easily is a great idea...

Originally by: Bodhisattvas

---

Black ops fill a nice niche in the game its just that most peeps are more interested in being part of a blob

when conducting their so called pvp. After all why bother to plan ganks when you can just blob folk instead ?

Just another way ccp are choosing to **** the game up instigating (F)ag (W)arfare aka blobs r us, buts that's
another discussion.

---

^^^ Garbage ^^^

Also on a side note the Pilgrim is better for the cov ops hauler role that someone mentioned.

Originally by: Waxau

---

Originally by: Pesht

---

Show me a ship with ecm bonuses that can do 800 dps and maybe then you can say all black ops are useless.

---

Yeah - 800 dps if its close range with torps, uses all its lows for BCU, with a crap jamming strength, no tank, takes 20 seconds to lock a BS, and oh. That was it. Jump drive/bridge is useless for any form of NORMAL, NON-******ED use.

---

Originally by: Pesht

---

Edited by: Pesht on 17/07/2008 08:34:06

Originally by: Waxau

---

Originally by: Pesht

---

Show me a ship with ecm bonuses that can do 800 dps and maybe then you can say all black ops are useless.

---

Yeah - 800 dps if its close range with torps, uses all its lows for BCU, with a crap jamming strength, no tank, takes 20 seconds to lock a BS, and oh. That was it. Jump drive/bridge is useless for any form of NORMAL, NON-******ED use.

---

It's ability to travel quickly under cloak allows it to use close range torps, and it does 800 dps with only 2 BCU(800dps is including drones), allowing for it to fit 2 SDA in the other low slows, giving it easily better jamming strength than a scorp (it gets a BETTER ecm bonus than the scorp if you noticed).

It's armor and shields is less but comparable to other BS, hardly "no tank".

And finally, if you fit a sensor booster with targeting resolution scripts, you lock faster than a scorpion does even with the cloak fitted.

So lets review, the only complaint you said which was valid was- oh, none of them were.

---

Originally by: Bodhisattvas

---

Originally by: SuiJuris

---

in short no. They have terrible scan res so your better off with a Tier 1 BS with a cloaking device. Also they have serious PG / CPU issues and cannot field as much DPS / Tank as the Tier 1 counterparts. As for the Jump Bridge what not its to limited and the cargohold is to small to hold enough fuel.

That is black ops in a Nutshell.

im sure theres other issues.

---

The above text is *******s.
Not using them is anyone's guess but the stupid reasons you give are just that... stupid!
You either have never flown them and read that stuff off the back of a cornflakes box.

You have to be a moron to try and fit these ships as purely offensive, either that or you have too much
isk. So complaining not enough grid etc blaa blaa is just that blaa blaa.

Black ops are somewhat **** poor regarding jump range as with even maximum navigation jump skills you will
probably still find yourself using jump gates due to short jump range.

The fuel problem can be cured with cargo expanders, its the jump range and being in a corp that can be arsed with
the logisitics of setting up ganks using black ops and recons.

Black ops fill a nice niche in the game its just that most peeps are more interested in being part of a blob
when conducting their so called pvp. After all why bother to plan ganks when you can just blob folk instead ?

Just another way ccp are choosing to **** the game up instigating (F)ag (W)arfare aka blobs r us, buts that's
another discussion.

---

Originally by: James Lyrus

---

Actually, it's base armour and shields add up to about 23k effective hitpoints. That's OK by cruiser standards, but a Raven trading fire with you will melt you before you get to try again, if you miss a jam.
Perhaps even worse, as you'll be taking 10s or more to even lock it, after decloaking.

Paper torp DPS on this ship looks good, but the only stuff you get to use it against is the stuff (e.g. 450m+ signature ships) that _will_ smash you in the face if you miss a jam, and your 600million ship will vanish in a puff of fail. Or if they remember to bring FoFs, or they deploy drones before you lock. Or if there's more than one.

The Widow's just about usable, IMO in a standoff, fire cruise missiles and jam role. It's not much better at it than a scorp, even before you start comparing pricetags, but the cloak and the jumpdrive _can_ make the difference.

They just ... don't in practice. The number of situations that cloak + sneak up on someone + decloak and mug them actually works, is ... well really very small indeed, and you would _still_ be better off just driving a Raven over them, and applying your boot to their face.

---

Originally by: Pesht

---

---

Originally by: Jita Dancer

---

Edited by: Jita Dancer on 13/07/2008 16:12:43
SK Rooster of NOTR flies one - I know, he killed my Astarte with his Sin, after neuting my tank dry in seconds his drones whacked me so hard my teeth were ringing. They are viable, just expensive and fragile.

Go to Syndicate and pick a scrap with him if you think they are weak - he gives free lessons in losing your ship...

---

Originally by: Waxau

---

Right: Time to do this i think:

Black Ops Proposals:

1. Allow Cov Ops Cloaks.
- Nukes the speed bonus (has no real role), so goes base speed.
- Removes the Scan Res problems that have been experienced
- Gives Black Ops a true 'guerilla warfare' stealth apeal
- DOESNT make them overpowered: A force recon, that has the movement of a BS = easy to catch when organised

2. All Black Ops to have their roles to be changed to their Recon variants:
- Widow : ECM Strength, ECM Range, Same BS Bonus (Missile velocity + Rof)
- Sin : Scramble Range, Sensor Damp effectiveness, Same BS Bonus (drone damage/hp, blaster damage)
- Panther : Web Range/effectiveness, target painting effectiveness, Same BS bonus (large proj rof and damage)
- Redeemer : Nos/neut Range (NOTE! NOT NOS AMOUNT!), Tracking Disrupting effectiveness, Same Bs Bonus (cap use reduction, turret rof)

---

Originally by: Waxau

---

Actually Captator, both of those were what i want :D Together.

Black ops need an overhall. simple as that. But the whole 'not-cloaked-when-warping' removes any 'MWHA! Here i am! Pewpewpew' value. Its a stealth bomber scenario.

---