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Antar Logan
Universalis Imperium Tactical Narcotics Team
0
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Posted - 2012.03.16 00:00:00 -
[1] - Quote
I don't agree that a Titan should be absolutely useless against subcaps... It should be fitted for tank against caps or sebo's against subcaps... that was the idea for all the people that vested months of their time to build one.
My main issue is the cost to make the titan. While completely nerfing it more than 3 times now, the cost to build it stays the same. If it is to be utterly useless please make it so it is easier to be obtained. Let us use them and lose them, Let their value be about 30b in minerals unlike the 40b that it is now with skyrocketing mineral prices.
If you already made the doomsday worse, less shield and armor hp and now scan res to crap along with 3 max lock targets.. the 6000+ cap parts should be about 4500 ... or we will all own one expensive Portable Jump Bridge instead of a Titan.
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mxzf
Shovel Bros
979
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Posted - 2012.03.16 00:05:00 -
[2] - Quote
*sigh* did you really have to make another thread about the titan nerf? There are already like a dozen threads, probably more, that were made in the last couple days about it.
And CCP has said repeatedly that they never wanted Titans to be this prolific or used against subcaps like they are. CCP is fixing things they messed up earlier, people need to stop feeling like they deserve to have solopwnmobiles. |
Buzzmong
Aliastra Gallente Federation
160
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Posted - 2012.03.16 00:22:00 -
[3] - Quote
Antar Logan wrote:... or we will all own one expensive Portable Jump Bridge instead of a Titan.
Which is what Titans are meant to be chap.
They're meant to be alliance level assests to support mass warfare, not to actually wage it.
CCP in their shortsightedness (really short) put them into the game when they hadn't actually:
1) Figured out their true role (along with MOM/Super Carriers)
2) Understood that really, time and isk isn't a limiting factor to proliferation
3) Realised that just because they said the game was going to have them in the boxed manual and advertsing blub, that they didn't actually have to come out and make them player owned items.
Also, might want to hold your tears for when CCP devise a new role, which they've said they're doing as they're really unhappy with them currently :D
(Also: I'll bite etc....) |
Jack Miton
Lapse Of Sanity Exhale.
145
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Posted - 2012.03.16 00:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
CCP need to limit the number of titans that can be built at any one time in some way, preferably to double/low tripple digits. Then they can be as op as you clearly want them to be. |
M1k3y Koontz
Taxes Suck Inc.
23
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Posted - 2012.03.16 00:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
Titans were meant to be fleet SUPPORT, with their doomsdays, jump bridges, and fleet bonuses (primarily the Erebus's and the Leviathan's), NOT the subcap slaughtering behemoths they are now.
Honestly, if they just removed the secondary weapons (guns & missiles) and gave them some other specialty role people would whine about them but it would end the tracking titan once and for all, not just reduce its ability.
I also still think that 5mm scan res is a LITTLE extreame... even the Primae has 10mm
Also, CCP needs to decide what they are going to do with the titan while theres still *about* 1000 titans in the game, before their numbers really explode and the raging mob grows. How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Smiling Menace
Star Nebulae Holdings Inc.
192
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Posted - 2012.03.16 01:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Antar Logan wrote:I don't agree that a Titan should be absolutely useless against subcaps... It should be fitted for tank against caps or sebo's against subcaps... that was the idea for all the people that vested months of their time to build one.
My main issue is the cost to make the titan. While completely nerfing it more than 3 times now, the cost to build it stays the same. If it is to be utterly useless please make it so it is easier to be obtained. Let us use them and lose them, Let their value be about 30b in minerals unlike the 40b that it is now with skyrocketing mineral prices.
If you already made the doomsday worse, less shield and armor hp and now scan res to crap along with 3 max lock targets.. the 6000+ cap parts should be about 4500 ... or we will all own one expensive Portable Jump Bridge instead of a Titan.
Are you a Raiden. spy? Just wondered as one of their neutral alts said virtually the same thing in the main thread.
This has been done to death. No, you are not going to get a 'solopwnmobile' because CCP said so. Let that be an end to it, please, for the love of God, let that be an end to it. |
EnderCapitalG
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
385
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Posted - 2012.03.16 01:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
If only we had a stickied thread for Titan nerf discussion. |
Sentinel Eeex
Thunderwaffe Goonswarm Federation
73
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Posted - 2012.03.16 06:56:00 -
[8] - Quote
Antar Logan wrote:I don't agree that a Titan should be absolutely useless against subcaps... It should be fitted for tank against caps or sebo's against subcaps... that was the idea for all the people that vested months of their time to build one.
My main issue is the cost to make the titan. While completely nerfing it more than 3 times now, the cost to build it stays the same. If it is to be utterly useless please make it so it is easier to be obtained. Let us use them and lose them, Let their value be about 30b in minerals unlike the 40b that it is now with skyrocketing mineral prices.
If you already made the doomsday worse, less shield and armor hp and now scan res to crap along with 3 max lock targets.. the 6000+ cap parts should be about 4500 ... or we will all own one expensive Portable Jump Bridge instead of a Titan.
I'm thinking of fitting 5 Cormack sensor boosters on my Drake, as well as officer mods in low, and challenging your Titan to honourable 1 vs 1 fight.
I am expecting to win, since my Drake will cost more than your Titan.
I also possibly have more SP than you, so that is another reason why I should win.
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Halete
Almost Epic
20
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Posted - 2012.03.16 07:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Except Titans never were meant to do anything to things below sub-caps. Except Titans never were meant to be "used and losed". Except Titans never were meant to be deployed on the same grid in the double digits. Except that your Titan's fleet certainly can't handle sub caps.
(The last one is different from the rest, figure out how.) Generic small-time hero-tackle pilot with no relevance. |
Pheusia
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
18
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Posted - 2012.03.16 10:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Antar Logan wrote:I don't agree that a Titan should be absolutely useless against subcaps... It should be fitted for tank against caps or sebo's against subcaps... that was the idea for all the people that vested months of their time to build one.
My main issue is the cost to make the titan. While completely nerfing it more than 3 times now, the cost to build it stays the same. If it is to be utterly useless please make it so it is easier to be obtained. Let us use them and lose them, Let their value be about 30b in minerals unlike the 40b that it is now with skyrocketing mineral prices.
If you already made the doomsday worse, less shield and armor hp and now scan res to crap along with 3 max lock targets.. the 6000+ cap parts should be about 4500 ... or we will all own one expensive Portable Jump Bridge instead of a Titan.
Let's compare the price ratio between, say, a Caracal and a Cerb. It's about the same as a Dreadnaught vs a Titan, give or take a few percent.
Now let's compare the relative power and utility, even post nerf, of a dreadnaught and a Titan, to that between a Caracal and a Cerb.
Cerb gets +33% more DPS +T2 resists, giving maybe double the EHP +A range bonus +Targeting range -Loses drone bay
Titan gets +100% more DPS +Does not get stuck in place and unable to receive remote reps/cap when apply that DPS +500-1500% more EHP +Can use Doomsday Device to one-shot capitals +Can only be tackled with bubbles/HICs +EW Immunity -slower lock time |
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Rel'k Bloodlor
Mecha Enterprises Fleet Villore Accords
157
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Posted - 2012.03.16 10:37:00 -
[11] - Quote
Antar Logan wrote:I don't agree that a Titan should be absolutely useless against subcaps... It should be fitted for tank against caps or sebo's against subcaps... that was the idea for all the people that vested months of their time to build one.
My main issue is the cost to make the titan. While completely nerfing it more than 3 times now, the cost to build it stays the same. If it is to be utterly useless please make it so it is easier to be obtained. Let us use them and lose them, Let their value be about 30b in minerals unlike the 40b that it is now with skyrocketing mineral prices.
If you already made the doomsday worse, less shield and armor hp and now scan res to crap along with 3 max lock targets.. the 6000+ cap parts should be about 4500 ... or we will all own one expensive Portable Jump Bridge instead of a Titan.
I would feel bad but I skilled for and bought 2 widows and found out that they are just REALLY bad jump bridges, that are for geting in to cyno jamed systems in null and nothing else......I am a FW pilot......at leat you got a day in the sun with your ship. I am in Factional Warfare. Have been from day one.-á-áI will never work for a mega corp in null-sec. Do not make FW like null-sec.-áMake FW worth our time. Reword us for what we already do.Give us some more activities to do. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
879
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Posted - 2012.03.16 17:56:00 -
[12] - Quote
Antar Logan wrote:I don't agree that a Titan should be absolutely useless against subcaps... It should be fitted for tank against caps or sebo's against subcaps... that was the idea for all the people that vested months of their time to build one.
Bad idea is bad By the way, didn't you posted some time ago in Gallente thread that "battelships are not meant to kill frigates, adapt or die" You should have thinking about consequences the day you started to lols one shot frigates with your uber titan, or cruisers or battleships? -and by you I mean all you unbrained bitvetpubbies always running after solopownmobiles
Good Idea too about gate camping lowsec in your uber Nyx/Aeon and gank everything passing the dam gate or undocking the dam station But the "clou du spectacle" was the CCP fleet and everyone else in the system gank by a Titan blob... [:lol: Let me tell you that this single point there gives me 2 thoughts: you guys are either tremendously stupid/arrogant to think that wouldn't have any consequence, or tremendous genius forcing CCP to see by themselves the consequences that Titans are to the game
In both cases you can't blame anyone else than yourselves, and you greatly deserve what you're getting, suck it up be a man and move on. "your actions always have a come around"
Quote:My main issue is the cost to make the titan. While completely nerfing it more than 3 times now, the cost to build it stays the same. If it is to be utterly useless please make it so it is easier to be obtained. Let us use them and lose them, Let their value be about 30b in minerals unlike the 40b that it is now with skyrocketing mineral prices.
If cost was a problem you wouldn't see that much in the game so no, their price is not only not a problem but it's far too cheap, because when a guy buys the hull for 50B and fit it for over 100B mods then the hull is not expensive Fly what you can afford to loose
Quote:If you already made the doomsday worse, less shield and armor hp and now scan res to crap along with 3 max lock targets.. the 6000+ cap parts should be about 4500 ... or we will all own one expensive Portable Jump Bridge instead of a Titan.
You can DD a carrier to full damage, a super carrier to full damage, another Titan to full damage - working has intended Hit Carriers/supers/Titans to full damage with your XL guns it's awesome - working has intended
Now explain me what's the point of having a stuck character in a ship that you can't dock, gives you complete paranoia just by login, a ship requiring you huge amounts of isk= time consuming activities to get that ship unless you use "other" means So what's the point for you to have/train a specific character to be stuck in that ship at a POS just to bridge guys when a black ops can do the same for cheaper?
-you think that should give you the ultimate weapon in the game and would make you invulnerable to whatever? -if it's the case then I ask you what's the point of it once you get 1000 because you can't expand your alliance to more numbers and goons or another alliance get 5000? -what are you going to find to cry after then?
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Silas Shaw
Coffee Hub
12
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Posted - 2012.03.16 21:30:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm really surprised by all of these threads.
NO ONE has said anything about dropping one gun for a t2 autotargeter, and another pair for smartbombs. now you've got 5 guns, no drones shooting you, and SIX targets max, and you target all of the ones shooting you (up to max) in what? 4 seconds?
Srsly. i know its a stupid module, but Scan Res set to 5 to cover officer Sebos as a Worst Case?
*SIGH* |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
234
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Posted - 2012.03.17 07:50:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tanya Powers wrote:-you think that should give you the ultimate weapon in the game and would make you invulnerable to whatever? -if it's the case then I ask you what's the point of it once you get 1000 because you can't expand your alliance to more numbers and goons or another alliance get 5000? -what are you going to find to cry after then? Eh, that was the backup plan, after all.
Though some are holding off on starting titan constuction, I think. Since there might be some of them on sale for less in a bit ... enough to at least enable "broken" force projection and amazing non-siege cycle structure shooting.
Tanya Powers wrote:But the "clou du spectacle" was the CCP fleet and everyone else in the system gank by a Titan blob... [:lol: Let me tell you that this single point there gives me 2 thoughts: you guys are either tremendously stupid/arrogant to think that wouldn't have any consequence, or tremendous genius forcing CCP to see by themselves the consequences that Titans are to the game
In both cases you can't blame anyone else than yourselves, and you greatly deserve what you're getting, suck it up be a man and move on. "your actions always have a come around" Wait, what? I haven't heard about this CCP fleet being ganked by a titan blob. Anywhere I can find information on this? Take all the tech Build all the titans Drop all the POSes
Bees incoming, nerf ERRYTHING ERRYDAY |
Zarnak Wulf
CTRL-Q Iron Oxide.
280
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Posted - 2012.03.17 16:36:00 -
[15] - Quote
Polaris Fleet
CCP got hot dropped by Supers. It's in there somewhere. |
OfBalance
Caldari State
168
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Posted - 2012.03.17 19:11:00 -
[16] - Quote
I honestly hope CCP was aware of the problem prior to that engagement, but if anyone needed a more illustrative point to be made, having PL power-fuck CCP's fleet in titan swarm certainly did the job well. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
34
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Posted - 2012.03.17 19:35:00 -
[17] - Quote
You are going to have a miserable year I am afraid, as CCP said the tracking tweak is a band-aid (read: quick'n'dirty fix) they applied until they figure out what to do with supers in general and Titan's in particular.
There is a very good chance that significantly harsher (for some) changes are coming so rage on, with any luck your anger is all but spent when the main body of changes hit so you can do nothing but accept them and do what is so often spammed: Adapt or Die (trying).
Now all CCP needs to do is remove bridges entirely, that way Titans will always have a purpose .. hahahahaha |
Cephelange du'Krevviq
Hephaestus LLC Get Off My Lawn
42
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Posted - 2012.03.17 19:42:00 -
[18] - Quote
EnderCapitalG wrote:If only we had a stickied thread for Titan nerf discussion.
Inorite? |
Bibosikus
Inside out. The G0dfathers
44
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Posted - 2012.03.17 20:11:00 -
[19] - Quote
Just make them smaller.
Smaller things have less expectations foisted upon them.
PS A friend told me this.
The box said "Requires Windows-á2000 or better", so I installed Linux. |
EnderCapitalG
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
412
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Posted - 2012.03.17 22:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Bibosikus wrote:Just make them smaller.
Smaller things have less expectations foisted upon them.
PS A friend told me this.
Is this a ***** joke??
What the christ
p e n i s
See that CCP? It's the scientific term for a male's dangly bits.
P E N I S |
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Fredfredbug4
Kings of Kill EVE Animal Control
103
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Posted - 2012.03.17 22:46:00 -
[21] - Quote
According to a bitter vet I use to play with, he said that a long time ago only the big alliances had titans and if they did they only had one or two. Some of these alliances kept their titan construction top secret, even from certain members of the alliance.
Now we have people dropping 100 titans like they are sub-caps just to kill a handful of ships.
I honestly feel that titans should be removed from the game and have their mineral cost for production enter the point of retardation. |
Mirmedon
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
5
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Posted - 2012.03.17 23:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
nerf everything until rfters blot out the sun(s) |
Bibosikus
Inside out. The G0dfathers
44
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Posted - 2012.03.17 23:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
EnderCapitalG wrote:Bibosikus wrote:Just make them smaller.
Smaller things have less expectations foisted upon them.
PS A friend told me this.
Is this a ***** joke?? What the christ p e n i s See that CCP? It's the scientific term for a male's dangly bits. P E N I S
Yes, you dillon. It was a joke *sigh* The box said "Requires Windows-á2000 or better", so I installed Linux. |
Aqriue
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
493
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Posted - 2012.03.18 18:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
Fredfredbug4 wrote:According to a bitter vet I use to play with, he said that a long time ago only the big alliances had titans and if they did they only had one or two. Some of these alliances kept their titan construction top secret, even from certain members of the alliance.
Now we have people dropping 100 titans like they are sub-caps just to kill a handful of ships.
I honestly feel that titans should be removed from the game and have their mineral cost for production enter the point of retardation. Sounds like you are butthurt freddy boy.
Here is a pro-tip: Humans overcome a lot of things, we now store food in a jar the size of your fist when in the past you had to hunt for it every day of your life, meaning that you had very little in the way extra food laying around. Amazing isn't it....that you don't think the same thing would apply in a game and the human element would find way to produce massive amounts of titans so you have extras, like those jars of peaches sitting in your cabinets that were probably 4 months old by the time you consumed, lets not even think of the shelf life we managed to extend it to .
I belive that Titans should still have AoE doomsdays + normal type turrets with tracking better then frigate guns to pop noobs trying to aim for the 2 meter themal vent and Super carriers should still exist as it did pre-crucible with massive numbers of drones. Titans knock out those fleets of battleships every ******* idiot always brings (cause its a good idea, to just blob the feck out of everything amirite? ) , Super Carriers countering the Titans because they can't track fighter bombers, and it would be ******* glorious the amount of bitching from every stupid n00b that belives their ****** trained sub cap ship should be able to destroyer the biggest investments in the game when you consider that it takes far longer to get into a cap ship vs a battleship after you have thought: Titan pilot spent 1.5 years + paying real world cash and you spent six months for you battleship. Its a harsh universe and titan / SC pilots deserve the right to smack your whiney ass around. |
OfBalance
Caldari State
181
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Posted - 2012.03.18 18:19:00 -
[25] - Quote
Aqriue wrote:Sounds like you are butthurt :giant spergy post about sc owner entitlement:
Heh. |
Dray
Euphoria Released 0ccupational Hazzard
33
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Posted - 2012.03.18 22:58:00 -
[26] - Quote
The tech 2 lotteries were CCP's biggest mistake, titans are up there but not as bad. |
Ladie Harlot
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1941
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Posted - 2012.03.19 00:43:00 -
[27] - Quote
Dray wrote:The tech 2 lotteries were CCP's biggest mistake, titans are up there but not as bad.
Tech 2 lotteries were dumb but they aren't currently breaking the game in the same way unkillable titan blobs are. But there's no reason CCP can't fix both issues.
The artist formerly known as Ladie Scarlet. |
Trinkets friend
Obstergo NEM3SIS.
222
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Posted - 2012.03.19 01:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
The recent PL titan loss shows a few things about how the game has evolved.
EVE tragics who have spent 5+ years in the game and skilled into supercaps, and actually got a supercap, are likely to band together into one of the large power blocs with other supercap pilots, for safety and synergy. This has resulted in a handful of alliances and organisations with double, and in a few cases, triple-digit supercap numbers.
This is a natural endgame scenario for any collective of groups within a population; consider the IRL current geopolitical situation, with several powerblocs, two superpowers, and nascent third-tier powerblocs forming. Plus of course, pirate powerblocs. That nullsec (and to a lesser extent lowsec) in EVE should begin resembling the real world is not surprising; humans play the game, at least outside the DRF.
This kind of group-organising behaviour was forseeable, but not part of the dev brief for supercap balancing (if there was one). CCP balanced (i know, bear with) supercaps on the basis of them being rare special toys, which they are; they gave them abilities beyond normal caps, power off the charts in some cases, and some drawbacks (eg, no docking). They did not think of them being deployed in blob numbers and hence, the emergent game of EVE destroyed the balance.
So now they have to consider balancing supercaps in the game, for the game's sakes. Odda's titan loss shows what the superpower blocs of EVE are capable of; dropping 140 caps and supers on the field within 5 minutes, to blob a suicide dread fleet. That Odda lost his Erebus, well, he was pushing the envelope of what a Titan is supposed to do, not only by having a luls smartbomb fit but by camping a lowsec gate to clean up the peons. Wolfsbrigade, all props to them, knew what they were getting into and pulled it off despite Odda/PLs cries of lag, disconns, blah blah.
The PL response to this hotdrop shows the problems CCP has to address in balancing not just titans but supercaps. I'm not saying you shouldn't lose 33 dreads to take out a titan. But clearly the emergent game has progressed to the point where 100-man-plus supercap and cap fleets are common, where such fleets can project across large pats of EVE, instantly. PL has the organisation and discipline to do this; many others do not. Good on PL.
Removing the Titan's abilities to shoot subcaps does address the problem where the superpowers can wipe out vast numbers of ships with a handful of superweapons. If a small alliance (like mine, luls at it is) tries to carve a niche like the CCP propaganda splerg would have noobs believe is possible, then we could field 150 ships and get vaped by a couple of guys in supers. That's not good for the game - even if we kinda know we are down the food chain and being roflstomped by the big guys is coming. We can deal with being bitchslapped, but corps shed members, people shed accounts, the game suffers.
After all, as various people show on their blogs, max logons haven't peaked past 45K for months (Crucible honeymoon), representing a shrinking of the player base; having Odda camp Amamake forever with total impunity won't encourage anyone to play the game. Having small powers instagibbed by bored powers, etc, isn't good for the game.
CCP has a lot of work to do in rebalancing the supers to the new realities of EVE. Hell, they are soon going to be faced with the need to tweak the tier 3 battlecruiers now people are figuring out how to use them, and deploying fleets of them in true nullsec blob numbers. Its part of the cycle; CCP makes things with set attributes, people theorycraft and experiment, and accumulate wealth and skills to fly them, and then some smartass nut comes along and begins exploiting particular peculiarities in the maths or attributes, and makes it broken.
Raiden/ has built an empire on a business model of the titan blapfleet. Maybe they need to work on their social skills and engineer in a subcap support blob. Either way, the cycle goes on.
The skilful employer of men will employ the wise man, the brave man, the covetous man, and the stupid man. Sun Tzu @trinketsfriend on twatter
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Rubix Khamsi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
8
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Posted - 2012.03.19 01:35:00 -
[29] - Quote
Remove guns/missiles completely!!!! Give them new bonuses and possibly new modules for high-slots to replace the guns/missles... Maybe a new type of "triage" with a 1 minute duration and provides the rep of 10 triage archons!!! Also a cool down period of a few minutes, and cant stay in this new triage for long. !!!!!
Cmon guys this may sound crazy but u gotta start thinkin outta the box!!! |
Dumb Thukker
Sudden Buggery
3
|
Posted - 2012.03.19 08:26:00 -
[30] - Quote
Well, all manner of crazy things have been suggested, and the above person's ideas aren't even the wildest of them.
I personally don't think Titans should be unable to shoot subcaps. Post-nerf they will be able to, but not this side of 2013 with that scan res. But they should have some handicaps unable to be overcome with Cormack's SeBo's - which as we know, anyone can afford given enough time, so CCP has to wargame all supers with full faction fits and balance accordingly.
To be honest, if you gave XL guns the performance of large rails at tracking and signature resolution of the guns, you'd be fine. Try, just try, hitting anything at 5km with large rails. Its apalling, even with angular, total velocities are <10m/s. I'm almost ready to give up on large rails because they actually suck horribly unless you are shooting rats - and that's with 2 tech 2 TC's scripted.
Anyway, no one would design a supercap totally vulnerable to subcaps. So Titans probably need a point defence weapon, to deal up to 2000 DPS to a single ship inside of 24km. Couple that with paltry scan res and crap gun tracking for their XL guns, and you'd only pop people who wanted to stick around tackling you, or which another person has webbed down. 2K DPS will stop people soloing you. I dunno.
Perhaps supercaps should not be able to fit points, preventing hotdropping supers and only supers upon hapless people, and requiring the supers to bring long - in the very least - a carrier to do the pointing.
Supers should not be able to fit cynos. You want instant 100 man cap and supercap backup, get an alt or a friend.
There does need to be a capital-killing ship capable of taking out, primarily, carriers. I think somewhere somene suggested Juggernauts or whatever, I was high so I didn't take much notice. But whatever; carriers do logistics and suitcasing ships; dreads are anti-structure; supers are anti-structure POS-soloing overpowered pwnmobiles; Titans post-nerf will just be 100 billion ISK portable holes.
There is a need for an anti-capital capital. A dread with smaller active tank ability (no siege), equal gank, which doesn't get stuck in siege while DPSing. Something that costs 1-2 billion which the smaller alliances and the smaller botting syndicates can afford, which you can dock in station, and insure. Put an asset like that in the hands of the pubbies and supercap blobbing will become much more dangerous. |
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