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Children of Naught: Reflected Light

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Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.07.12 14:29:00 - [1] "Capsuleer dementia." The term is central to the discussion of capsuleer nature, marking the line between those who appear human in thought and deed and those who seem either to be irretrievably mad, evil, or else simply "other." The existence of the division itself is arguable, yet for those of us who have crossed the line to join the ranks of the Demented, the fact of it seems obvious. We are not as we were. It is difficult, perhaps, to identify what we now are, but that it is somehow different appears clear. I have attempted, in these writings, to establish at least a starting point, a beginning for our investigation into our own nature and, consequently, into our proper role in this universe-- an issue central to my own Achur faith, if not to all. I wish now to address this central issue. The image of a person in a mirror is not, itself, that which it reflects. This is obvious: a reflection is an artifact of light, rather than matter. It is not even a copy; it is merely a turning back of reflected light, so that the person the light shines off of can see herself. But what if you could build a mirror that would reflect a mind, rather than a body? Let's step back a moment. Imagine, if you will, a potter of incredible skill. Confronted with an intricate masterwork of a pot, he can effectively duplicate it, creating a copy of incredible exactness. Yet will this copy be the same as the original? Inevitably not. Even if the potter is supernaturally skilled, the clay used is not the self-same clay; there will be inconsistencies, trace minerals, microscopic irregularities. Of course, if the original is then destroyed, comparing the two becomes more difficult, but the fact will remain that if the two were analyzed side by side, they would be distinguishable. Imagine, then, that this potter possesses a mirror that destroys that which it reflects, but which then allows the potter, based on that reflection, to create a new pot, as described above. This is not an inaccurate description of our own situation. The cloning process captures a "reflection" of a capsuleer mind using an intense, near-instantaneous scanning process which severely damages the brain it is used on, and transmits that reflection, often a distance of many light years, to a cloning facility, where a clone is then imprinted with a mental pattern based on the transmitted data. If a person steps between two well-aligned mirrors, she will be able to look to either side and see reflections of herself extending, seemingly, to infinity in either direction. But this can hardly be the case: mirrors can be made amazingly accurate, but the perfect mirror (the perfect anything, really) has never yet been invented. Each reflection, then, will be a little altered from the one before it. A second copy (a copy of a copy) will almost inevitably be a little further from the original than the first copy was. And so, the third. And so on. This much is obvious. But is it true, in respect to us? Or, if it is, is it significant? It's a trite statement that all things are subject to change, but surely human minds are subject to more than most? Humans forget things all the time, and stubborn though they may be they're ultimately influenced by almost everything around them in one way or another. How is a clone transfer different? The key seems to me to be in the distinction of the copy from what the copy would have been if it had not been copied. With every succeeding copy, not only does change continue in its usual, organic fashion, but a few things are changed which otherwise would not have been. Now, the ultimate significance of this (or even its reality) to an entity may be small, if, and here is the sticking point, it remains unnoticed. [cont'd] Ghost Festival is recruiting!
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.07.12 14:29:00 - [2] "Capsuleer dementia." The term is central to the discussion of capsuleer nature, marking the line between those who appear human in thought and deed and those who seem either to be irretrievably mad, evil, or else simply "other." The existence of the division itself is arguable, yet for those of us who have crossed the line to join the ranks of the Demented, the fact of it seems obvious. We are not as we were. It is difficult, perhaps, to identify what we now are, but that it is somehow different appears clear. I have attempted, in these writings, to establish at least a starting point, a beginning for our investigation into our own nature and, consequently, into our proper role in this universe-- an issue central to my own Achur faith, if not to all. I wish now to address this central issue. The image of a person in a mirror is not, itself, that which it reflects. This is obvious: a reflection is an artifact of light, rather than matter. It is not even a copy; it is merely a turning back of reflected light, so that the person the light shines off of can see herself. But what if you could build a mirror that would reflect a mind, rather than a body? Let's step back a moment. Imagine, if you will, a potter of incredible skill. Confronted with an intricate masterwork of a pot, he can effectively duplicate it, creating a copy of incredible exactness. Yet will this copy be the same as the original? Inevitably not. Even if the potter is supernaturally skilled, the clay used is not the self-same clay; there will be inconsistencies, trace minerals, microscopic irregularities. Of course, if the original is then destroyed, comparing the two becomes more difficult, but the fact will remain that if the two were analyzed side by side, they would be distinguishable. Imagine, then, that this potter possesses a mirror that destroys that which it reflects, but which then allows the potter, based on that reflection, to create a new pot, as described above. This is not an inaccurate description of our own situation. The cloning process captures a "reflection" of a capsuleer mind using an intense, near-instantaneous scanning process which severely damages the brain it is used on, and transmits that reflection, often a distance of many light years, to a cloning facility, where a clone is then imprinted with a mental pattern based on the transmitted data. If a person steps between two well-aligned mirrors, she will be able to look to either side and see reflections of herself extending, seemingly, to infinity in either direction. But this can hardly be the case: mirrors can be made amazingly accurate, but the perfect mirror (the perfect anything, really) has never yet been invented. Each reflection, then, will be a little altered from the one before it. A second copy (a copy of a copy) will almost inevitably be a little further from the original than the first copy was. And so, the third. And so on. This much is obvious. But is it true, in respect to us? Or, if it is, is it significant? It's a trite statement that all things are subject to change, but surely human minds are subject to more than most? Humans forget things all the time, and stubborn though they may be they're ultimately influenced by almost everything around them in one way or another. How is a clone transfer different? The key seems to me to be in the distinction of the copy from what the copy would have been if it had not been copied. With every succeeding copy, not only does change continue in its usual, organic fashion, but a few things are changed which otherwise would not have been. Now, the ultimate significance of this (or even its reality) to an entity may be small, if, and here is the sticking point, it remains unnoticed. [cont'd] Ghost Festival is recruiting!
Rawr Cristina Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2008.07.13 01:30:00 - [3] Most people only get to die once in their lifetime. Not us - When our hulls are on the verge of failure we don't see it as the end of our lives, but merely an inconvienance; or perhaps even a learning experience. Still, dying is dying, and you can't honestly expect someone who steps out of their clone vat on a daily basis to retain even the slightest bit of humanity, whatever that is. ...
Sepherim Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2008.07.13 01:48:00 - [4] Edited by: Sepherim on 13/07/2008 01:51:34 Too true. Each time a bit less human, a bit more monster. Just look around you, how many claim for blood? For death? For slaughter? And I don't speak of the Blood Raiders and Sani Sabik alone. And this war has only made it worse. Inmortality... is a sin, takes us away not only from God, but from ourselves. All we have left is to fight for that which we value and is outside us, eternal in itself. The Empire. Ordo Quaesitoris Forum
Karanth Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.07.13 02:57:00 - [5] Well, a funhouse full of mirrors is actually very close to what we are. I've known many "rational" people, who have done abominable things, and not understood that they had done something that bad. Honestly, I'm sure the same can be said of myself. What should we do about it?
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.13 03:41:00 - [6] I look in the mirror every morning, and do you know what I see? I see my face. Whenever I step out of the cloning vat (an event I've become quite skilled at avoiding) whatever steps out is me: my memories, my name, my personality, my thought process. Only the skin is different. People fixate too much on this whole "I'm different" bit, as if the change is even perceptible. Of course you've damn well changed. Change is a very human thing to do. Every second of every day, every new snippet of data processed, every new opinion formed, new skill practiced and every line of reasoning worked through brings with it neurological changes equally if not more profound than the ones brought about by being cloned. I am not, now, the same person I was when I wrote that last sentence thirty seconds ago. My brain has been altered in a subtle way by the simple act of thinking about how to write my opinion here. Hell, I'd be prepared to bet that the "margin of error" reported by cloning facilities is the simple result of a living brain reconfiguring itself to take on board new experience, or reinforce a familiar one. Instead, focus on what is the same, i.e: almost everything. I still THINK I'm Verin Tarn-Hakatain, and given that I can remember being called that for the last fourty years or so, I think it's safe to say that I'm probably accurate in that belief. I can remember my life up to this point as clearly as the next man, and my sense of self is unshaken. My face in the mirror may not be a perfect image, but it's close enough that I'm quite happy to shave in that mirror every morning. When I visit my parents, they still hug me and welcome me and treat me as their beloved son, even when they're looking at somebody else's corpse that has been surgically remodeled to look like me, then had my mind squirted into it. In short, I believe in the idea of "close enough." perfection is impossible. If you're going to go into exhaustive detail, scanning at the atomic scale or below, you will of course find variation. Cross-interrogate me in the most intensive manner possible and you might detect a few changes in me after being podded, but you would find similar changes if you had just left me in a quiet room for a couple of hours with an interesting book. Humans, however, do not function on that level of subatomic accuracy, or absolute understanding. My copy of the pot, despite being a copy, is still a pot, and presumably a pretty nice-looking one too, if somebody's willing to go to all that effort to duplicate it. So long as I don't try and claim it's the original, there's nothing wrong with displaying the copy. If somebody asks "Hey, is that an original Bolswonnom?" I will respond with "No, it's just a very good copy. looks good though, doesn't it?" The same goes for clones. If somebody asks "hey, is that your original body?" I will say "No, it's just a very good copy. Looks good though, doesn't it?" "Hey, are you the same person?" "No, I'm just very, very similar." so similar that nobody - not myself, not my family, not any of the people who know me well - will ever be able to tell the difference. If the difference is negligible to the point of being for all practical purposes undetectable, then why fixate upon it? - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Myxx Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.13 04:56:00 - [7] I'll be honest, I've only been forced to clone twice ever from my pod. I don't currently act anything like I did before I became a pod pilot, quite likely because of those two events. I'm a lot more aware of about how things are than how people want them to be. I'm a lot less interested in being nice to people in general. Most of my family knew me as a kind hearted and light hearted woman... but im not. I can slaughter hundreds of thousands in an instant if I wanted to, and it disturbs me more than words explain. Being a pod pilot in general does this to some people, I think. It may not have much to do with cloning... but once you accept that you are near-immortal... you change, for better or worse, overall. Realising and accepting this is what, I think, or at least for me, causes me to care so little about the lives of the people around me - because so long as I have my clone and my pod, I live and... they're highly replaceable, sadly. Thats just what I've noticed as time passes on. It may not have much to do with cloning, but how time in being pod capable affects you, because you become so much more aware of what the state of things are. that, I think, is disturbing enough to most people. ---- ôWhen a Dove begins to associate with crows its feathers remain white but its heart grows blackö - Unknown.
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.07.13 07:41:00 - [8] Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 13/07/2008 07:43:46 [continued from above] In fact, it seems to me that it does not matter greatly the degree to which the above analogy is actually true, so long as it is recognized as true, consciously or not, by the infomorph experiencing it. Emotional distance in the mind of a human is a curious thing. That which happens in the human's immediate vicinity will register strongly; that which happens far away-- a continent, light minute, or light year away-- will register as an interesting story, but a human often has to expend actual effort to work up an emotional reaction to such news unless it is of some immediate personal significance. Hence, the death of a son ten light years distant might as well have happened next door, while the deaths of a few dozen strangers at the same distance won't even register as news. To stir a spontaneous emotional response, then, it seems that either emotional or spatial proximity is necessary. Now-- I would suggest further that spatial proximity is, in fact, a form of emotional proximity. That which happens near to a human, spatially, impinges upon that human's life in a way in which that which happens far away rarely can. A rise in local crime raises worries, rather than a shrug; a nearby fire or accident might inspire a quick check of safety devices and emergency preparedness; the sound of gunfire, broadcast from far away, might inspire curiosity or excitement (not unlike, as a few humans might guiltily admit, an action holovid), while gunfire nearby will result in deep concern and an attempt to account for any missing loved ones. It is because humans form emotional attachment to their surroundings that what happens near to them, spacially, has such impact. So what happens when what used to be a human takes an emotional step back from everything? Consider: a capsuleer, upon first cloning, becomes, abruptly, a copy in a universe of originals. The capsuleer has died, and lived through it. The objective truth of this is unimportant; so long as the capsuleer is aware and believes it-- again, consciously or not-- this is a step away from all else that lives. And it's not even as though a clone is a very exact copy. Osteoplastic bones: step. Genetic age of the (frozen) genetic sample it's made from: step. Crafted from corpses at best, nutrient broth at worst: step. For a new-born infomorph, a technical description of how clones are made and what of typically makes for disturbing reading and probably constitutes about three emotional steps all on its own. It's being hammered into the capsuleer's mind: "You're a copy. You're a copy. You're a copy." What's more, the infomorph's existence is full of further distancing factors, starting with the fact that we routinely plug the gray matter that houses us into a starship, effectively abandoning a fragile, human form for a much larger and more powerful one. Step. We pack our cranial space with implants until our skulls are probably more hardware than either bone or osteoplastic. Step. We kill, over time, millions of people. That's at least one step, and probably more. And even if we don't, we make our resources creating the weapons that do; the economics of our existence are positively drenched in blood. Is it any wonder we find our emotional ties to humans weakening? Pretty soon, a combat-trained capsuleer can reduce a conventional battleship to dust and think nothing of it; if the capsuleer thinks of the crew at all, it's likely to be not unlike reading in the Scope that a few thousand Guristas (or whatever) died in combat with a capsuleer. In other words, "Big deal." [cont'd] Ghost Festival is recruiting!
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.07.13 07:43:00 - [9] An odd twist emerges in the behavior, not of capsuleer to human, but of capsuleer to capsuleer. ItÆs true that we can be both bloodthirsty and bloody-minded towards one another, but itÆs also true that some very bloodthirsty capsuleer pirates have been known to distribute advice and even reimburse novice pilots who fall prey to them. While this could be taken (as I admittedly have in the past) as evidence that we are fundamentally the same in ways we do not share with humans, I think that the reality is more nuanced: I think we are ôsimilar,ö and thus feel a greater empathy and understanding for each other than we do for humanity. If copies have little in common with the originals beyond the superficial, it seems only natural that we should replace that emotional bond with a connection to fellow copiesùwho have, at least, one thing in common with us, and frequently much more. Of course, within this framework, a great many variations are possible: a particular relationship might prove stronger than the capsuleerÆs growing ôdistance,ö at least for a time, allowing genuine affection between human and infomorph. Similarly, a given infomorph, whether out of religious conviction or powerfully-held sense of self, might indefinitely resist internalizing the idea of being a ôcopy,ö even subconsciously, and thus avoid capsuleer dementia altogether. There are two important, final notes to be made. First, this explanation does not fully cover the predatory behavior that seems to characterize the Demented, unless we accept that humans who become Demented infomorphs are, even at the beginning, predatory creatures by nature who will deal cruelly with anything they do not greatly care about. This is possible, but not yet clear. Further observation will be necessary. Second, this writing is by no means to be taken as an assertion or acceptance that capsuleer dementia is a mental illness, ôall in our heads,ö and therefore ônot real.ö While it is true that dementia appears to be a psychological process, this has never been seriously in dispute; the question is not whether the process is psychological, but whether it is a disease or an adjustment. If it is the former, we Demented are all simply unfortunate, sick, mad creatures, best either restrained and put into treatment or put out of our (and everyone elseÆs) misery. If, however, it is the latter, if the psychological change we undergo is an adjustment to our circumstances rather than a disease of the mind, then we are not simply damaged, but rather transformed. This is not to say that our state is ôtranscendentö or in any other way superior; it is only to say that we no longer exist as humans do and no longer think of ourselves, consciously or not, as humans. If this is true, if our minds are simply adjusting to what we now perceive ourselves to be, that is to say, something ôotherö than human, I find it difficult to conceive of a more absolute demonstration of fundamental difference: that, in the face of all the assumptions to the contrary, all the assertions of our common humanity, we have not only become something ôelse,ö but functionally adjusted ourselves to being so. Ghost Festival is recruiting!
Remus Navillum z3r0 Gravity Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.07.13 08:06:00 - [10] Edited by: Remus Navillum on 13/07/2008 08:11:42 It started for me the first time I died. Before then, hunting non-capsule ships for their bounties was something of an uncomfortable business for me. Even when I was a new pilot, knowing that small crews were being killed when I destroyed their frigates made me feel vaguely like a murderer. And then one day I was cornered by a pair of capsuleers in a 0.4 system. They were both in heavy assault cruisers, and made quick work of my Vexor. I was so panicked that I didn't even consider the lives of my crew when the ship tore apart around me. I tried to get my capsule into warp, but I hesitated just an instant too long, and was immediately scrambled. My camera drones saw three blaster charges lance into the capsule. Then there was a momentary dull rushing sound, and a searing bright light that seemed to come from the very center of my brain, then nothing. There seemed to be no delay. I woke up the very next instant flailing and gasping in a foggy white suspension, convinced that I had died and was in some kind of otherworldly purgatory. But then the clone vat door hissed open and I spilled out with the amnion, ignobly sprawled naked and squirming and yelling all over the cold metal floor. And then the cloning technician just threw a robe over me and started explaining the circumstances of my death in the most blase manner you could have hoped for. It was all deeply disorienting. You know, no matter what they tell you in capsule training, no matter what exercises they put you through, nothing can prepare you for the first death, because they can't do anything to really communicate the absence of mortality. In those first few moments when you wake up in the vat, you're convinced that you actually died. Anyway, once I was set up with a new ship and a new crew and... y'know, I wasn't naked and screaming, my thoughts drifted inevitably toward my crew. They were all dead, right? Maybe a few had managed to get to the escape pods, but odds are the vast majority of them met their end in the cold blackness of space. Their frozen bodies were probably still floating there... with mine. I was there too, right? But I was here. I was right here. This was MY body. This was a mug in MY hand. This body was, to every practical extent, identical to the one I had just "died" in. The genetic structure was identical, save for perhaps a few marginally altered introns here or there. I had survived death. I alone had stared down death, cast myself into its mortal abyss, and emerged unscathed. I had beaten the cycle of mortality where my crew, all the crews I had killed, had failed. I had outdone them. And since then, my remorse has evaporated. In fact, when I tear open the hull of a cruiser and see its crewmen sucked out and sprayed into the vacuum, I feel what could almost be a flicker of contempt. Their failure to elude death is their own. However, it also helps that I mostly keep my hunting to Sansha vessels, whose crews arguably have very little humanity left anyway. So does it make me "demented?" Maybe. But how can any one of us justify the hundreds or thousands of lives we take on a daily basis other than by succumbing to a certain degree of madness? Severe warping of the conscience seems like the only mechanism by which we as capsuleers can do our jobs without being paralyzed by guilt. [Edit] Guh... damnit Jenneth, you type too quickly. Or are you just thinking straight into the GalNet terminal?

Natalcya Katla Naqam	Posted - 2008.07.13 18:29:00 - [11] Edited by: Natalcya Katla on 13/07/2008 18:30:29 By legal definition, I am still the very same Natalcya Katla who graduated from the Federal Navy Academy four years ago, and I have increasingly come to the conclusion that sentient law and my own ideological beliefs are the only measurement standards for abstract reality that I need. If the law says my identity remains the same even after switching out several bodies, then I'm happy to accept that as the truth, and my life moves ever smoother because of it. Also, it really does matter less and less to me whether or not I am the same person today as I was yesterday. This is because the person I want to be tomorrow remains as a fixed ideal, and as long as I keep moving in that direction with what I say and do and think, that is what's important. It's the destination which matters.
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.07.14 06:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Remus Navillum Guh... damnit Jenneth, you type too quickly. Or are you just thinking straight into the GalNet terminal? Actually, I suffered a comms interruption in mid-flow, and had to finish my work offline, then upload it once the technical problem was fixed. I apologize for the disjointed result. Comments, questions, and criticism are, as always, welcome. Ghost Festival is recruiting!
AsheRaven Minmatar The Stormcrow Milita	Posted - 2008.07.14 12:53:00 - [13] Edited by: AsheRaven on 14/07/2008 12:55:18 Take it from personal experience, the pod pilot is an entirely new spiecies altogether compared to the human cattle beneath us. Becoming monsters and angels is but the next and inevitable step for us. Look at the Jove, who were pod pilots long before the concept even crossed our once so limited minds. If only you could see why the drip feed us their technolgy piece by piece. They want us to become more than like them, they want us to become them. They fed on their own people once (if the official histories are to be believed), the likes of Omir Sarikusa, The Blood Raiders, the Sanshar and those of us that interperet their structures and beliefs understand this all to well and embrace such visions as the inevitable process of not what can be, but what must be as a result of our advancement. Either you could aurgue that the Pod has been responsible for some inevitable quirk in manipulated evolution process, or we are simply mad. The latter seems all too an obvious, even comfortable explanation to those of us afraid to see what we are becoming. I for one both embrace and welcome such changes ---------------------------------
Sallera Zephyr Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.07.14 16:38:00 - [14] I was fascinated by the process of cloning from the moment I learned I'd become a capsuleer. On my first day free from the confines of training, I thought I'd head down to Crielere and pay a visit to the old research station. The prospect of testing my immortality was another irresistible draw. The outcome, of course, should be obvious - I encountered a small fleet at the Crielere entrance and was promptly reduced to dust. The experience was similar to how others have described it - a short instant of being completely convinced I was dead and the process was going to fail, then jolting awake in a clone vat. I spent a couple hours after emerging from the shower just contemplating myself and my memories. I was the same, I became quite convinced of it. Every little quirk I remembered was still there - a mild addiction to explosions (developed that in pre-capsuleer studies, not a single cloning yet has managed to cure it), the ability to belittle the whole experience - I even still wanted to see Crielere, although I was thankfully convinced of the futility of the effort at that time. But it is yet as you say. I've died a few more times since then, and every time I become more disassociated with humans, more connected to other capsuleers. I can still remember when I cared for my friends, my parents, what few fellow Achura I knew. I don't anymore, though. No matter how hard I try, they are simply... others. The destruction of conventional ships is merely a source of income and a feed for my addiction, and a poor one at that. Only the hunt for fellow capsuleers interests me, and knowing that there was a pod at the centre of that explosion brings that connection. Friends or enemies, all of both are capsuleers, anyone else is a blip on the overview. So for me, at least, that one point is the only difference. Were all humans capsuleers, I would still count myself exactly the same as when I took that first trip to Crielere. It would indeed be interesting to learn if those Demented who actively enjoy the slaughter of humans exhibited similar tendencies before death; I enjoyed fighting, but not death, before my transition, and now? I do not wish them, indeed, they may as well not have happened for all I notice. So if the dementia amplifies the nature of the subject's feelings toward humans, those capsuleers who are a danger to the rest of us might perhaps be easier to detect early in training. ...Looking back, I see I've taken far too long to get to a point. My apologies for boring you all.
BloodBird Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.07.14 17:45:00 - [15] Indeed, it took you far to long to simply say you are indiffrent and don't give a damn about life, death, or relationship with even your family. Do you even visit them anymore? I wonder what they would say if you did. Sig source
AsheRaven Minmatar The Stormcrow Milita	Posted - 2008.07.14 17:50:00 - [16] Edited by: AsheRaven on 14/07/2008 17:50:43 Originally by: BloodBird Indeed, it took you far to long to simply say you are indiffrent and don't give a damn about life, death, or relationship with even your family. Do you even visit them anymore? I wonder what they would say if you did. Most of my relatives are either dead or want to kill me, llargely becasue of the man (or beast in their eyes) I have become. Such concerns don't interest me anymore, though I do miss the dinners Burak and I enjoyed in my younger days as a capsuleer, even though he was an amarrian with interesting ideas about slavery. I do wonder if I find a deeper sense of family with fellow capsuleers than I could ever now find with people I once considered "family". Maybe this is why he and I clicked so well on almost friendly terms ---------------------------------
Sallera Zephyr Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.07.14 18:08:00 - [17] Bloodbird, I'm not sure if you were actually interested in an answer or simply chastising me, but no, I don't visit them. My parting with my parents was not exactly on... friendly terms. I don't think they'd want to see me, and I'd not look forward to the inevitable hail of lectures and Navy recruitment papers. As to your paraphrase, I suppose that's close, if not quite accurate. I do care for life, my companions, our eventual fate; and while death among capsuleers is rare, it is hardly going to inspire indifference in myself. I'm no walking shadow, just... disconnected from non-capsuleers. (And apparently far too fond of ellipses.)
Vreena Caldari Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu Celestial Imperative	Posted - 2008.07.14 22:19:00 - [18] It is possible that this whole process does not start with us. First the other humans elevate us in their society, then we are push by the governments and it becomes quite obvious they want to use us for their own gains, and then we realize we don't have to die like everyone else. We are definately different from the rest of humanity. I don't think we're better, just other. Few who are not podders can understand us, and I think that is what pushes us further from where we started. Plus, if we think of them as other, than it's easier to handle knowing you're technically a mass murderer. ----- The above does not reflect the views and/or opinions of my corporation or alliance...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay?
Myxx Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.14 22:31:00 - [19] Originally by: BloodBird you are indiffrent and don't give a damn about life, death, or relationship with even your family. Do you even visit them anymore? I wonder what they would say if you did. I hardly do anymore. I used to and our parting was... peaceful for the most part. Not anymore, they'd be horrified now at what I've become since then, I care for them too much to subject them to seeing that, or knowing of it. Aside from that... I'm just indifferent, almost entirely, to what goes on around me outside of my ship and concentration. Humanity, in general is just another footnote in a way. My real family, is my crew and my corporation and other pod pilots I know. ---- ôWhen a Dove begins to associate with crows its feathers remain white but its heart grows blackö - Unknown.
Remus Navillum z3r0 Gravity Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.07.15 17:27:00 - [20] Edited by: Remus Navillum on 15/07/2008 17:27:32 Everyone's responses (including my own) have me concerned. Are we to simply conclude that it is our privilege (or curse) to become the mad demigods of the world, each wielding the wealth of a nation and meting out our crazed judgments to the mortal realm? Frankly, that won't fly. If we venture too far down that path, the empires will acknowledge us as a liability, cut off our cloning access, and start slaughtering every capsuleer with a record of mischief. With that in mind, perhaps the only viable option left for our kind is a mass exodus to 0.0 where we can become a nation unto ourselves, free from the grasping of the empires. ...Do you suppose this is how the Jovian empire began?

Andreus Ixiris Gallente Mixed Metaphor	Posted - 2008.07.15 17:48:00 - [21] Andreus LeHane Ixiris was born 25 years ago on Intaki Prime, into the LeHane family in a city near the Akat Mountains. Wealth and priviledge is pretty much everything he knew, his father having married into the LeHane family and thus gained access to a cartel of businessmen who effectively run the city. He went into space to become a capsuleer, and he died in Uemon, attacked by raiders in his mining cruiser. Am I that same Andreus LeHane Ixiris? My mind sits in a different body now, generic biomass rendered into stemcells with osteoplastic bone-substitutes that have been imprinted with the DNA of the original body of Andreus Ixiris. I look in the mirror and I see pretty much the same face I remember seeing in the mirror five years ago, when I enrolled in the Center for Advanced Studies. I talk, and I hear the same voice. I bang my head on a doorframe and the pain feels the same. I think I'm the same consciousness, the same spark, the same being I was five years ago looking out through the eyes of a different body. I think I have the same soul. But there's no way to tell. Maybe the original Andreus Ixiris is long dead, his body still floating somewhere in space, and all I am is a pale mirror image of him, a walking ghost that bears his name, his face and his memories. Maybe I'm just a memento mori from an unfortunate miner that died long ago. But then something else occurs to me: what does it matter? I still exist, no matter who I am. I don't mind if I'm not the real Andreus Ixiris, although I truly hope that I am, if only for that original body's sake. I still live, and think, and walk and talk and breathe. I still feel happiness and sorrow, pain and joy. Whoever and whatever the hell I am, I'm alive, and I want to keep living, and I want to make my mark on this world. ----- CEO, Mixed Metaphor Dance Commander Asuka Smith > not even goons can make 30m ISK this interesting.
Sallera Zephyr Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.07.15 18:38:00 - [22] Navillum, perhaps you should read the other Children of Naught essays? Ixiris, I think that is a large part of it. I believe that I am not the same; if I had never lived through death, I don't think I'd still see the world the way I do. You believe that none of this matters, and to most appearances you haven't changed much. I suppose the question, for me at least, is whether conscious acceptance of the differences hastens the progression of the condition; would it make a difference if I tried to resist? Or is it dependent upon the subconscious as Aria mentions?
Remus Navillum z3r0 Gravity Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2008.07.15 21:34:00 - [23] Edited by: Remus Navillum on 15/07/2008 21:37:10 Makes an uncomfortable, chagrined noise Okay, I have now more or less skimmed the entire body of Children of Naught writings and found that I was more or less parroting pilot Jenneth's take on the matter. Though one must admit that the progression of principles flows naturally to "mass exodus" if we start on this fundamental assumption of inhumanity (which is becoming admittedly more difficult to deny). That aside, I maintain that my question of a parallel with the inception of the Jovian empire remains at least vaguely thought-provoking, if not valid. Of course, we have virtually no history regarding the early Jovians, and it seems unlikely-bordering-on-laughable that they would ever willingly hand over the information. But all the proposed principles: exodus to a highly insulated region of distant space, automation of basic maintenance systems to reduce the need for human labor both shipboard and in stations, it all smacks of creating another "mysterious presence" akin to the current Jovian empire. An unreachable, threatening, quiet entity (assuming we can keep some of our more far-gone pilots on a short enough leash to stay quiet) with vastly superior per-capita killing power. And even if this should emerge as the entire purpose behind the Jovian "gift" of capsule technology -- to lead a certain genetic demographic of the human population toward the creation of an ultratechnological nation-state -- it not only calls into question the Jovians' motives, but our ability to succeed where they have failed. The unmaking of the flourishing Second Jovian Empire can most likely be attributed to overeagerness to futz about with their genome. Historical accounts lead us to presume that genetic tampering was the cause behind their persistent epidemic and diminished numbers. Perhaps we can tell ourselves now that we would exercise greater caution than they, but let me declare on a personal basis that resolve alone cannot hold back the profoundly dark and, indeed, vaguely prurient desire to tinker with life's machinations when presented with the knowledge needed to do so. My undergraduate and post-doctoral career at the Center for Advanced Studies was in biomedical engineering, with a focus on gene therapy. A small portion of my work went unpublished because it was mere recreation, not to mention it was very illegal and I kept it entirely to myself. Cloning technology had re-energized the field, and I was intent on expanding on the successes of some of the big-name researchers. Unfortunately, my impetuosity led me to create... well, abominations. Not infomorphs. Infomorphs are empty bodies waiting for a consciousness. These... creatures most decidedly had consciousnesses, which I had tailored myself via neurological manipulation and cognitive imprinting during incubation. They would slavishly obey absurd commands if accompanied by an imprinted code phrase (my weapon of choice was "if you please"), or have their cerebellums stop functioning in response to a burst of radio energy tuned to a specific frequency. I could invent memories, give them lives they never had, or condition them to exhibit mental disorders of my choosing. I abandoned the project and recycled the specimens when I realized that what I was doing was frighteningly akin to the madness of Sansha or the manipulation of the Enheduanni. It made me sick. Condemn me if you will, but know that I now only experiment on myself and my infomorphs. Either way, those failed projects are a testament to the fact that even if we aren't human per se, we remain mostly human in thought and deed, and experimental curiosity remains a pillar of our basic functioning. And that curiosity can get the better of us just as easily as it did the Jovians. Now, to avoid letting the discussion get too bogged down in gloom and Serious Business, I choose to conclude on the following note: Banana hammock.
Vreena Caldari Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu Celestial Imperative	Posted - 2008.07.16 05:32:00 - [24] I've been speaking to other capsuleers about what Ms. Jenneth has said here. At one point, five or six individuals agreed with her only to change their opinion the moment that Nicolette Mithra made a good point. That point was that Ms. Jenneth says that we are becoming inhuman, but did not satisfy the definition of what it is to be human or what humanity is. That being said, I think Ms. Jenneth is right in a way, though I don't think it has anything to do with our humanity. We change because of what we experience no matter if we are capsuleers or not. It could be that our experiences push us towards becoming, what I consider, other when compared the rest of humanity. It could be that the very small inconsistencies from clone to clone, as someone else suggested, are there because we are changing every second. It could be that because we change constantly that that small inconsistency does not matter even a hundred years from now. Many capsuleers here have suggested that the home from which they came no longer accepts them because of who they've become. Maybe that is the reason for this "dementia." Is it not possible that many pilots become "demented" because this is a way of life that we enjoy and we are only accepted by our own? ----- The above does not reflect the views and/or opinions of my corporation or alliance...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay?
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.07.16 06:26:00 - [25] Ah, dear. Vreena, there's one little problem with Ms. Mithra's point, which is that she can't come up with a satisfactory definition of "humanity," either. Hers, to be specific, is unsatisfactory in that it differs violently from common usage, coming closer to what I would consider a definition for "sentient entity." We had rather a long discussion on the subject. I'll post a link to it when I have time to relocate it. However, please note that the "truth" of our humanity is, from the perspective of this writing, irrelevant. Perception, conscious or otherwise, is the basis of the shift; what definition of "humanity" is the "correct" one is beyond the scope of this writing, and beside the point as well. Ghost Festival is recruiting!
Nikilaiki Ruutarhara Caldari Pulsar Combat Supplies Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.07.16 07:30:00 - [26] Originally by: Aria Jenneth However, please note that the "truth" of our humanity is, from the perspective of this writing, irrelevant. Perception, conscious or otherwise, is the basis of the shift; what definition of "humanity" is the "correct" one is beyond the scope of this writing, and beside the point as well. True, true... However, if humanity cannot be defined, nor can your view that we are changed and no longer part of it. This dementia you speak of cannot, therefore, be deemed a product of our changed state either. In fact, when it comes down to it your whole argument for the need of the exodus project or whatever stems from an assumption that cannot be proven: that we are indeed no longer human, and humanity will destroy us for it. But then, we are no longer talking proofs or theorems, we are talking about belief. I still find it odd that you continue to debate with those you seem to feel do not understand you, and never will. It speaks of a deeper need, a need to prove yourself, yet you seem destined to prove the opposite. A psychological flaw in and of itself. I have always wondered what traits make a good pilot. Perhaps a combination of will, tenacity, and detachment are all that is needed. Perhaps the cycle of death and rebirth merely reinforces those traits. The will to continue, the tenacity to persevere, and a detachment from the deaths of others. Is it dementia or simply a transformation into what we truly are beneath the surface? A transformation that strips another layer of separation from what we are and what we should be with each death? Do we not learn from our deaths, and yet live to take those lessons to heart? Originally by: Andreus Ixiris But then something else occurs to me: what does it matter? I still exist, no matter who I am. I don't mind if I'm not the real Andreus Ixiris, although I truly hope that I am, if only for that original body's sake. I still live, and think, and walk and talk and breathe. I still feel happiness and sorrow, pain and joy. Whoever and whatever the hell I am, I'm alive, and I want to keep living, and I want to make my mark on this world. Without a definitive answer on our humanity, mister Ixiris has perhaps the greatest insight into what we are. We are what we are. At the end of the day, our humanity only matters in the sense that you either believe you are human or not. Belief, Miss Jenneth. In all the insight and wisdom before you, this one thing still holds you back. It limits you. It mocks you, guiding you by the nose down corridors and passageways, blinding you to the doors to either side. Beliefs are not static things, and neither are we. Embrace the transformation, do not fight what you are. Do you want to know what the true dementia we suffer from? The dementia that comes from questioning what we are instead of experiencing it. Hiding and fighting against our natures until we look in the mirror one day and find a face we hardly know attached to a body we do not recognize as our own. We are murderers, yes. But we are also engineers, leaders, and so much more. Within all of us is the potential for greatness. To cheapen our experience by calling it a disease, a mutation, or even to call ourselves superior is to cheapen us all. We are not Gods, we are mortals. We can all die quite easily given the proper circumstances, and permanently at that. Get over yourself and realize that what makes you special is not your genetics or a capsule, it is who you are and your perceptions, experiences and aptitudes.
Karanth Gallente Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2008.07.16 10:54:00 - [27] Well, I might not be what I was, but, as I asked before, what should I do about it? Either I am the same person, just more violent and mercurial than before, or I am not what I was before, and thusly shouldn't concern myself with a dead woman who floats between the stars light-years from where I am. The ladder ends the debate much faster than the former, so I'll assume that that is the case here. Callous disregard for the lives of others doesn't normally come from nowhere, but I think simply slaying tens of thousands until we get used to it isn't the reason. I'd suggest that someone examine the genetics and psych profiles of the capsuleers in existence. I have a theory. We all know of the dreaded brainlock. Now, If I was bent on creating a horde of bloodthirsty immortals, ready to slay millions without a second thought, my first thought is to make sure that only the ones susceptible to such ideas "survive" training. I submit that brainlock is in fact a creation of the four Empires, to keep the ranks of capsuleers ready to die for whatever cause comes our way, and is a complex deception. Pirates infesting your space? Add a bounty, and watch the infomorphs flock to the kill. Declaring war, and can't afford to expend your already stretched military assets? Offer token awards, and watch thousands of infomorphs march off to slay each other for weeks, and soon to be months, on end. Now, this might be a seriously paranoid idea, or it could be what is actually the case. But, I ask, why is it every time a new shiny bauble appears, or a relatively tiny reward is offered, tens of thousands of infomorphs step over each other, and anything else in their paths, to take it? "Human" nature can explain some of it, but... there is something more. I know it. As to my own affiliation? My view of the situation is split between my two options above.
Vreena Caldari Yurai-Tenshin Zaibatsu Celestial Imperative	Posted - 2008.07.17 07:34:00 - [28] Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara However, if humanity cannot be defined, nor can your view that we are changed and no longer part of it. This dementia you speak of cannot, therefore, be deemed a product of our changed state either. In fact, when it comes down to it your whole argument for the need of the exodus project or whatever stems from an assumption that cannot be proven: that we are indeed no longer human, and humanity will destroy us for it. This is my point exactly. And, Ms. Jenneth, if the definition of humanity does not matter, than I suggest you re-write your essays. Over and over, you speak of us and humanity, being inhuman in your essays. If you mean what what you say, re-write change your point because what you wrote is not how you responded. ----- The above does not reflect the views and/or opinions of my corporation or alliance...well it could, but let's not be presumptuous, okay?
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.07.18 14:04:00 - [29] Vreena: There's a fine distinction both you and, Ms. Ruutarhara are missing, and it is this: that while the objective "truth" of our nature does not greatly matter for the purposes of this writing or the Exodus Project, the subjective perception of truth very much does. The argument over humanity boils down to a debate over whether to define it narrowly or broadly. Humanity is a word, not a state; our state is the same whether we define it as human or not. I tend to use it in terms of common parlance, related to what we think of as the "human condition," which consists of aspects of "being human" so obvious and universal that you usually won't find them in any dictionary. They're simply assumed. It's my contention that while we share some of these (we were almost all children, once), we do not share others (a human physically ages in a linnear manner and dies but once). Now, if we choose to define "humanity" in another way, that may change whether we fit within that definition, but will not change the traits that might be used to define us as "inhuman." Consequently, those same traits can be used by others to reach that same conclusion: that we are no longer human. Which definition of "human" is the correct one is not going to matter very much if there is, for instance, a rash of war-mad infomorphs reducing inhabited worlds to balls of glass. Humans define that as "other" which they intend to destroy, and in our case the rationalization process doesn't have far to go: there's a rational basis for defining us as inhuman, already. It's a notion we're going to need to get used to if we want to survive. What definition of "human" we apply doesn't matter to our reality because "human" is a word, and the universe doesn't speak in words. What definition of "human" we apply doesn't matter to our fate at the hands of others, because they are free to use a different definition. So, no, I don't think I'll be changing my writings, Ms. Vreena-- nor would I, even if something I wrote turned out to be objectively wrong. I wrote these essays for the purpose of provoking thought and discussion, in myself as in others, and it would be a terrible kind of dishonesty for me to erase my tracks and pretend I'd always stepped true. Here's one: I wrote not so long ago that this war could prevent the Exodus from becoming necessary, but that was because I was assuming that we'd been fighting alongside conventional forces. Instead, we're serving as the proxies and agents of the Empires while the navies stand, for the most part, idle. Our quirks and instabilities are on full display. I'm afraid our time may be shorter, much shorter, than I imagined it before the war. I've inevitably made mistakes, pilot. I will make others. I plan on it-- and I look forward to them being pointed out, or to finding them myself. These writings show the progress of my thoughts; I will not erase my path. After all-- perhaps I am wrong, now, and something I said before was correct, though I think it now to have been said in error. Ghost Festival is recruiting!
Kora Bequin Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.07.18 17:18:00 - [30] I think I was lucky to have the background I do. When working for FIO I often had to assume a new identity for extended periods of time. I became rather comfortable with not recognizing myself or the persona I needed to use. I'm at the point where "Kora Bequin" is merely another persona, though one of my own choosing. I'm not sure if I'm the same person I was a few months ago when I stepped into the capsuleer life, but it doesn't really matter to me. Change is human nature, whether we like it or not. Without change, I would've been dead decades ago, just another drug junkie or another victim of the streets.

Nikilaiki Ruutarhara Caldari Pulsar Combat Supplies Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.07.19 03:57:00 - [31] Edited by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara on 19/07/2008 03:59:48 Originally by: Aria Jenneth There's a fine distinction both you and, Ms. Ruutarhara are missing, and it is this: that while the objective "truth" of our humanity does not greatly matter for the purposes of this writing or the Exodus Project, the subjective perception of our humanity very much does. A visual feed opens, a young woman with reddish blond hair comes into view of the camera. My dear, why do you generalize things so? We are not all like you, nor do all non capsuleers view us as different. In fact, the more non human we are, the more human we will be perceived as. Traits that we share with the rest of humanity, due to our status, will become more apparent. So is it we who are demented, or is it we who are demented? Smiles into the camera. We are all human, subjectively speaking or not. Whether you or I regard ourselves as human is, of course, irrelevant. Perception is always the delineating factor, regardless of the realities of a situation. So, I put this forth. We are but ghosts. We are already dead, yet we linger. You seek a place of rest, where our immortal remains can be free of suffering. You seek, for lack of a better term, a sort of "death" from the rest of the world. An afterlife, if you will. I think I fully understand you now, Miss Jenneth. You have a martyr complex, yet no way to fulfill your perceived purpose. How lonely and shallow you must feel. Of course you see humanity as your slayers, your monsters. They are as different to you as you believe we are from them. Lowers her head, not taking her eyes from the camera, as she slowly grins. Miss Jenneth, how does it feel building a doomsday cult? You are it's prophet, it's martyr, and it's creator. Hurry into the dark places, dear... your Children are calling. Turns away from the camera, laughing. The image blurs for an instant, out of focus, as the feed ends. Originally by: Nikilaiki Ruutarhara Religion is never about the search for truth, but the search for meaning. I think you should look into that deep, dark mirror and see what true meaning it holds to you, for I believe you have not looked too closely.
Remus Navillum z3r0 Gravity	Posted - 2008.07.19 05:58:00 - [32] ...Sorry, "ghosts?" Congratulations, you just made Ms. Jenneth seem realistic and sensible by comparison.
Nikilaiki Ruutarhara Caldari Pulsar Combat Supplies Alternative Realities	Posted - 2008.07.19 06:51:00 - [33] Originally by: Remus Navillum ...Sorry, "ghosts?" Congratulations, you just made Ms. Jenneth seem realistic and sensible by comparison. Oh come now, you know full well what I meant. If not, I truly do apologize for aiming my comments at Miss Jenneth.
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.07.19 08:45:00 - [34] Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 19/07/2008 08:51:05 Ms. Ruutarhara: Quote: My dear, why do you generalize things so? We are not all like you ... It's of course true that not all capsuleers are the same in terms of mental state, but it seems to me that dementia is a product of certain factors we generally have in common, even if its presence or effects vary from capsuleer to capsuleer. Such things as clones and plugging our brains into ships are so common to capsuleers that they very nearly constitute the "pod pilot condition." I'd suggest that it's these conditions of our existence, and their divergence from the "human condition," that form the basis for a generally applicable, rational distinction between capsuleer infomorphs and humans. This is not to say that "capsuleers are inhuman," only that the conditions of our existence support such a conclusion under a definition of "human" based on the "human condition." Or, to say it simply, "Ordinary, reasonable people can look at how we live and conclude that we are not human. This is dangerous to us." The degree to which dementia is present or affects us varies. Those of its root causes that are found under the heading of "what it means to be a capsuleer" vary little, if at all. Hence the generalization. Quote: ... nor do all non capsuleers view us as different. Well, of course not. It's the aggregate, rather than the individual, that's dangerous to us as a group. Quote: In fact, the more non human we are, the more human we will be perceived as. Traits that we share with the rest of humanity, due to our status, will become more apparent. Now that's a curious notion-- that we'll seem more human the less human we become? ... Only, by that analysis, wouldn't a famous statue be truly extreme in its apparent humanity? Would you like to clarify? I think I understand what you're pointing to, but the notion seems counterintuitive. If you'd like to develop it in detail, I'd be interested in how you think this would work. Quote: We are but ghosts. We are already dead, yet we linger. You seek a place of rest, where our immortal remains can be free of suffering. I've certainly suggested something of the sort in the past, though I always meant it as a metaphor, suggesting just how out-of-place we are among humans. The last ... well, this is where the metaphor breaks down. Infomorphs aren't "dead"; we're lively, active creatures; in fact, our interactions with one another bear more similarity to the activities of sophisticated, colonial insects or even entire ecosystems than they do to restless spirits. There's not much really "dead" about us, and I see neither reason for nor method of "laying us to rest" other than actually killing us-- and, begging your pardon, that's an outcome I don't much care for. "Martyr complex," now, that's interesting-- only, I'd rather not sacrifice myself, and indeed intend to avoid doing so by all workable means. Nor do I think I've been martyred already; my human antecedent died a pointless death through inexperience and pilot error. It's the way most of us first perish, I imagine. Nothing much was gained by it. The original Aria Jenneth might have been willing to sacrifice her life for her homeworld, but I don't recall that she had any particular desire to do so-- heroism, yes. Martyrdom, not so much. Perhaps, Ms. Ruutarhara, you'd like to meet and speak with me outside of the context of GalNet if you're going to continue to analyze me as well as my work? I don't think I'm quite so unstable a creature as you suggest, and, while I don't mind you drawing such conclusions as these, I don't really think you have enough information to make any sort of reliable diagnosis. Ghost Festival is recruiting!

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