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Aloriana Jacques
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2008.07.13 14:03:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Aloriana Jacques on 13/07/2008 14:03:26
IT's something I've been thinking about every time I read a war report nowadays.
Back when I was ctching up on the story behind factional warfare, I came across a piece in a news article that stated that the Minmatar were fighting with elite mechanized troops. The link to one such article mentioning them is available here.
Now, I've looked, but I haven't been able to find anything about androids, mechas, super suits, etc.
Ideas, oppinions, flames?
Edit: For linkage.
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Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.13 14:52:00 -
[2]
There is more info in the Empyrean Age novel. It seems the MTAC are used in a lot of different fashions. For example there are industrial type MTAC in factories that produce large, ship-type, armors.
From the description of the book, the military MTAC are the kings of ground combat in EVE, but vulnerable against attack from the air, or from space. During the Attack of the Elder fleet an Apocalypse killed multiple MTAC when it used a Large Laser Weapon against Elder-MTAC who were trying to board a station.
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Aloriana Jacques
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2008.07.13 15:48:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Aloriana Jacques on 13/07/2008 15:49:08
And suddenly, I forsee ground/world combat to be with mechs and ships....now that'd be interesting.
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Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
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Mithfindel
Gallente
Gariushi Foundation
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Posted - 2008.07.14 08:29:00 -
[4]
If you think about those things, I assume they would be in Battletech parlance light mechs, though the description of those had two important differences: They are smaller, and they are piloted conventionally, not with a neural link. (Possible capsuleer-piloted MTACs would of course have neural links and possibly a miniature version of the pod.)
As such, they're quite great for urban warfare, but would likely have considerable difficulties against organized anti-armour defence or proper main battle tanks. Soft terrain would also likely be more problematic to MTACs than to (properly designed) tracked vehicles, though the book does hint that the combat MTACs are (naturally) a lot more agile than the industrial MTACs.
The stunt of the Apoc in the book isn't possible with the current game engine. (The referred shooting down MTACs during their drop to station surfare: The way I understood it, the ship used its megabeams in a "flak" sense, firing without a target lock at the general direction of a bunch (dare I say "blob"?) of small and (relatively) fragile things, the firepower being enough to obliterate everything that happened to be in the wrong place in the right time.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.14 16:45:00 -
[5]
When I think of Industrial Type MTAC then I do not think of Battlemechs, but more of something, Ripley used in the second Alien Movie.
Military MTAC would not be nearly as clumsy and more of a kind of power armor, that provides additional protection and allows a soldier to carry heavier weapons as would normally be possible.
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Mithfindel
Gallente
Gariushi Foundation
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Posted - 2008.07.15 00:26:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Mithfindel on 15/07/2008 00:26:48
Yup, that's roughly what a Battletech ProtoMech (Clan tech, between powered armour and real 'mechs) would be. It's a bad comparison though as Battletech doesn't fit exactly on the view we've been presented since the MTACs appear to be a tad more heavily armed than their equivalents on the BT universe. (Where anything smaller than a proper 'Mech uses basically scaled-up infantry heavy weapons, not torso-mounted ones.)
That said, EVE != Battletech. The smaller the vehicle is, the easier it is to design so that it might actually work given advances in power plants and actuators. (Things like low enough center of mass to keep the thing from falling down, low enough mass-to-supporting surface area ratio to keep it from sinking in softer terrain and so on.)
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Kyra Felann
Gallente
Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.15 03:38:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Kyra Felann on 15/07/2008 03:38:52
Am I the only one that sees a big difference between "mecha" and "mechss"? One is anime-style, humanoid, form-over-function silly robot(ie: Gundam), the other is a big, lumbering war machine (ie: Battletech). "Mecha" is derived from Japanese, whereas "mech" is short for "battlemech".
Is it just me? Does no one else make a distinction between the two?
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Siviran
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.07.15 03:42:00 -
[8]
I usually make the distinction, but being both an avid anime fan and Battletech junkie, I've seen my fair share of both.
For what its worth, not all anime "mecha" are that far from what you'd see in Battletech. In fact, if you look at a lot of the common Mecha, especially in Gundam, they eschew a lot of the more obviously anime elements for designs that are almost Battletechish (The Zaku comes to mind, especially.)
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.07.15 05:27:00 -
[9]
however id imagine even the most powerful mech even in battletech wouldnt take a 1400mm Titanium Sabot well. =)
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Marine HK4861
Caldari
Radical Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.15 13:17:00 -
[10]
 Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker
however id imagine even the most powerful mech even in battletech wouldnt take a 1400mm Titanium Sabot well. =)
If I remember my battletech fluff correctly, an EVE 125mm autocannon loaded with EMP S has a greater effective range than the longest range mech mounted weapon (about 8.4km with no skills for the autocannon, about 1.1km for LRMs). 
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.15 16:35:00 -
[11]
I like to think that distances in EVE are actually a lot of further, then we can see ingame.
The distances as they are shown to us, are more of an illusion of the Pod/Pilot Interface, like the sound that hear in space, so we humans can better grasp the space environment.
And I think even Frigate sized weapons would eat even the largest MTAC alive. If 1400mm shell hits an MTAC, only a large crater and lots of very small pieces will remain.
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.07.16 00:53:00 -
[12]
i think our small weapons ranges are to give gameplay perspective. in space ranges would be far greater.
from a star trek site for that world's missle of choice...
Quote:
The Mark XXV torpedo was the current design as of 2375. It has a dry mass of only 186.7 kilograms. The reactant capacity has increased five percent over the previous design, leading to a slightly higher yield of 18.5 isotons. The reactants are in a cryogenic state. Effective tactical range was increased to 4.05 million kilometers
something tells me in EVE that would just be too hard for the game engine to draw and track. not to mention our missles atleast cant go faster then light.
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Kyra Felann
Gallente
Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.16 06:39:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Kyra Felann on 16/07/2008 06:40:11
Originally by: Siviran
I usually make the distinction, but being both an avid anime fan and Battletech junkie, I've seen my fair share of both.
For what its worth, not all anime "mecha" are that far from what you'd see in Battletech. In fact, if you look at a lot of the common Mecha, especially in Gundam, they eschew a lot of the more obviously anime elements for designs that are almost Battletechish (The Zaku comes to mind, especially.)
I'm not that familiar with Gundam, but when I think hear "mecha", I think of something like this. When I picture a "mech", I think of something like this. They seem pretty different. That's all I'm saying.
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.07.16 06:58:00 -
[14]
i think anime mechs are made more for viewer entertainment. while the mechwarrior style is ment to be the author's idea if what future weapons of war could be.
id imagine EVE mechs if we have them could range from anything to the massive missle and PPC hauling ones down to something like the APUs from the matrix movie.
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Davlos
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.16 07:37:00 -
[15]
Um, guys? Mechanized troops = infantry with armor support. Meaning, infantry that storm the place while in APCs, and have tanks to deal with anything that infantry typically cannot handle, or have a tough time doing it.
A good, very early example of how it is was the Panzergrenadiers of the Wehrmacht in WWII. Image below is one of the modern Panzergrenadier:
http://www.geocities.com/armysappersforward/mardera3goodcamou.jpg
You guys are misinterpreting 'mechanized infantry' beyond its intended meaning. :P
---
Originally by: Revan Neferis
Scientific category of gravitation fields and velocity is force....
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.16 17:06:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Deviana Sevidon on 16/07/2008 17:07:04
Quote:
http://www.geocities.com/armysappersforward/mardera3goodcamou.jpg
Es ist kein Mensch, es ist kein Tier, es ist ein Panzergrenadier.
MTAC appeared first in the Novel of Tony Gonzales and we are still struggling to integrate "Mechs" into our views of the PF.
Most of the sentences in the Empyrean Age Novel, are clear in the point that the MTAC are a bit larger then a heavily armed human. MTAC are described to have a ****pit, mechanized arms and are able to hold up an armour plate, with a weight of probably at least several 100 kilograms in front of their torso.
It would be nice to have a response with definitive info from Tony Gonzales, as he was the one who brought mechs into EVE.
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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.17 00:27:00 -
[17]
Interestingly enough, Mechs (MTACs) and tanks appeared side-by-side on Caldari Prime, in the book. The Caldari assault force deployed MTACs, but the primary resistance by the Gallente planetary defense forces seemed to consist of tanks.
To me, that implies that tanks are the vehicle of choice for dirtside combat (presumably because they can cover the distance faster, even over rough terrain) but that MTACs are well-suited for for rapid deployment and close-range combat.
Personally, I assumed that mechs of some description were part of the EVE PF anyway, even before Empyrean Age. In fact, now that I think about it, I seem to recall that some of Asgeirjon's EVE artwork (from LONG before the book was written) included what we would know call an MTAC.
Honestly, they're such a common sci-fi trope that I'd have been surprised to find that they didn't exist in New Eden.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Mithfindel
Gallente
Gariushi Foundation
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Posted - 2008.07.17 06:49:00 -
[18]
I wouldn't call Battletech 'Mechs realistic, though - there's still lots of humanoid designs, though lots of good designs, too. (Personally, wouldn't want to have a visible head sweetspot of "fire here to disable ****pit".)
What we likely are thinking are slightly bigger than Terra Nova: Strike Force Centauri suits or Mobile Infantry suits. I checked the Heavy Gear official site, alledgedly the Gears are smaller and a tad more realistic, but sadly, didn't find any concrete numbers or other interesting fluff.
Also on MTACs and capacity: The industrial lifter MTAC likely could carry the plate with relatively ease - though it wasn't as mobile. I'd expect the military models to be more on the edge of their capabilities to have maximum mobility. Assuming that the problems of stability on an upright position and weight to supporting area ratio are solved, walkers do have the potential of being very mobile. Getting over barricades and dragon's teeth would be one very good reason to pick MTACs over tanks - though then again, I'd personally picked still tanks, but include a mechanized battallion with a demolition team. (In any case, infantry is needed to hold territory.)
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Jaggeh
Thundercats
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.17 17:59:00 -
[19]
The combat MTACS scale would be more along the lines of powered battle armor from battletech, whereas the industrial one heth uses seems more along the size of a bulldozer.
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Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.07.20 05:24:00 -
[20]
wonder if EVE troops would also have nukes like in the Starship Troopers movie.
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Mithfindel
Gallente
Gariushi Foundation
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Posted - 2008.07.20 18:31:00 -
[21]
Nukes? Who wants nukes when you can have antimatter - well, except in situations where antimatter is too volatile. The Minmatar might be the most "low-tech" of all Empires, and their fusion warheads are basically H-bombs.
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Aloriana Jacques
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2008.07.20 22:15:00 -
[22]
Well, if they're not that much bigger then a person, then I picture something like the Terran Marine out of StarCraft. Of course, Eve styled.
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Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.21 00:22:00 -
[23]
Where'd this idea that military MTACs are smaller come from? Judging from certain events in the novel, they're at least big enough to be armed a military heavy railgun (50mm maybe?). That's a tank gun, implying a pretty hefty frame, if only to counter the recoil of the weapon.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Mithfindel
Gallente
Gariushi Foundation
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Posted - 2008.07.21 09:47:00 -
[24]
If I remember correctly (not bothered enough to check) the things were tall enough to peek over barricades. That's why I was talking of 'Mechs - since Power Armour / Mobile Infantry Suit / Battle Armour might be a tad too small. Admitted, they do not seem to be the size of "proper" mecha. In any case, this gives us the limits on what size they should be, assuming realism (heh): The height of 3 - 4 meters, perhaps, and with enough mass (or some stabilization system) not to be knocked down by recoil. However, the mass must be small enough to keep it mobile and allow it stand with on non-paved surfaces (since limiting the thing to roads would counter any advantages of greater mobility). The maximum mass would thus depend on the size of the machine's "feet", though then again the feet parts can't be really big, since they would become clumsy.
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Kyra Felann
Gallente
Noctis Fleet Technologies
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Posted - 2008.07.21 20:00:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker
i think anime mechs are made more for viewer entertainment. while the mechwarrior style is ment to be the author's idea if what future weapons of war could be.
Exactly. The former is fantasy, the latter is sci-fi.
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Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
United Front Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.21 20:42:00 -
[26]
I wonder if Tony Gonzales would answer us this question..
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Aloriana Jacques
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2008.07.21 20:55:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
I wonder if Tony Gonzales would answer us this question..
It would help, to say the least. I mean, at least give us a chronicle detailing them to some extent. Appearance, uses, how they differ between the Empires, who uses them...
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Aloriana Jacques - Skill Sheet
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