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Lachious
Caldari Universal Moose Foundation
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Posted - 2008.07.13 19:17:00 -
[1]
So, after some thought, I've finally decided to go ahead and get myself into a T2 ship. This is mostly due from boredom and being able to run any lvl 4 easily and the fact that I tend to lose ships often while out in low sec 0.0 pvping.
So, I'm gonna start small, either a Crow (interceptor) or Harpy (AF). I fly Caldari obviously, and I have a little over 10 mil SP. Basically all I need to get into either of these ships is Frigate V which I'm training as I post this, my question is which one should I go for a pvp only ship?
I'm thinking the Crow is the better bet since my missle skills are more advanced, but I'm open to any criticism, suggestions, or guidance. Thanks again for any help.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.13 19:21:00 -
[2]
Short answer: AFs suck, inties are useful. Go for the crow.
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.07.13 19:23:00 -
[3]
Originally by: AstroPhobic Short answer: AFs suck, inties are useful. Go for the crow.
this _______________
CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears. |
Lokius Ahgamemnon
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Posted - 2008.07.13 20:08:00 -
[4]
AF's don't suck they have their roll. Explain to me why when in a very small gang of 4 I can take down a drake and a malidiction in my wolf when were were outnumbered by 3?
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.13 20:13:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Lokius Ahgamemnon AF's don't suck they have their roll. Explain to me why when in a very small gang of 4 I can take down a drake and a malidiction in my wolf when were were outnumbered by 3?
Cause the people you fought suck? BTW you might've been able to take out more if you were in something other than a wolf. The idea is to win the engagement not get a couple kills before you die. --
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles Zzz
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Posted - 2008.07.13 20:16:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Lokius Ahgamemnon AF's don't suck they have their roll. Explain to me why when in a very small gang of 4 I can take down a drake and a malidiction in my wolf when were were outnumbered by 3?
What can you do with an AF that you can't do better with a cruiser or a HAC? I don't believe that there's any possible situation in which you'd rather have an AF than one of those. Zzz research towers Direrie NEW: Liekuri
20:1 low-end compression |
Euriti
Gallente SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2008.07.13 20:17:00 -
[7]
AFs suck, Inties rock.
Go for the taranis.
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Lokius Ahgamemnon
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Posted - 2008.07.13 20:26:00 -
[8]
Well for one I'd be able to kill a cruiser easier in a wolf then the cruiser would be able to kill me...you guys don't use your brains much I see...
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.07.13 20:28:00 -
[9]
Edited by: DubanFP on 13/07/2008 20:32:50
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
What can you do with an AF that you can't do better with a cruiser or a HAC? I don't believe that there's any possible situation in which you'd rather have an AF than one of those.
This. If you're looking for power go with a battlecruiser. You'll get much better results. If you're looking for speed go with an interceptor. You'll get much better results. If you want to do both then you'll do niether very well.
Also cruiser = 2-3 mil after insurance. AF 8-12 mil, uninsurable. Battlecruiser 8-12 mil after insurance. A battlecruiser will outclass an AF any day for the same cost. A ceptor costs similer too and the speed will make you much more effective then an AF for small/speed things. If you beat an ceptor with an AF then the ceptor is a newb.
Take a cruiser and make it cost as much as a battlecruiser for a size/speed bonus that it throws away anyways and that is an AF. _______________
CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears. |
AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.13 20:29:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Lokius Ahgamemnon Well for one I'd be able to kill a cruiser easier in a wolf then the cruiser would be able to kill me...you guys don't use your brains much I see...
Go, dig deeper! All the way, 6 feet perhaps!
There is not a single thing that the wolf can do better than the stabber. Except tank sansha plexes.
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Securitas Protector
principle of motion Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2008.07.13 20:33:00 -
[11]
YES AF's do have some uses. Yes, there aren't very many of them, but there are a (very)few. However, if a player hasn't yet got Frigate V yet and is even asking whichT2 frigate to hop into, I don't think that an Assault Frigate is a very good choice(maybe for PVE, definitely not for PVP). Especially considering that they are just stepping into the Tech 2 frigate class in the first place. In this day and age where speed is quite important, most of the AF's don't cut it. I won't say there aren't circumstances where they can achieve victory, but you'd be better of in another ship class. Although an interceptor is an excellent choice and you should probably go with it, remember that there are other T2 frigate types, like Electonic Warfare Frigates(yes there are cons here too) and Covert Ops(probably not a Stealth Bomber.) However, it seems the ship you are looking for is an interceptor. BUT your ship choice is influenced by whether you are going solo or you have a gang. Which one is it?
Securitas
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Lokius Ahgamemnon
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Posted - 2008.07.13 21:04:00 -
[12]
Ps I didn't die because they couldn't hit me :/
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Lokius Ahgamemnon
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Posted - 2008.07.13 21:08:00 -
[13]
I agree with that statement. AF's cannot be flown by inexperienced players, you really have to train to be good in an AF and again. AF's have their roles they arn't multipurpose. They have their niche although AF's need some boosts because they should be a lot better than what they are but in current state they aren't bad.
And most T2 ships are uninsured. Take for example Electronic attack frigs...and many other types of T2 ships. There's a reason their uninsured.
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Dheorl
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.07.13 21:12:00 -
[14]
Originally by: DubanFP Also cruiser = 2-3 mil after insurance. AF 8-12 mil, uninsurable. Battlecruiser 8-12 mil after insurance. A battlecruiser will outclass an AF any day for the same cost. A ceptor costs similer too and the speed will make you much more effective then an AF for small/speed things. If you beat an ceptor with an AF then the ceptor is a newb.
Take a cruiser and make it cost as much as a battlecruiser for a size/speed bonus that it throws away anyways and that is an AF.
When saying about price dont forget to mention module price. The extra cost of cruiser sized modules can level out the price greatly overall.
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Lachious
Caldari Universal Moose Foundation
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Posted - 2008.07.13 23:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Securitas Protector
BUT your ship choice is influenced by whether you are going solo or you have a gang. Which one is it?
Well, I was hoping to find something that could do a little of both. From what I'm hearing it appears that the interceptor would be the prime choice.
Thanks, for all the help and responses. Though I've played for a bit, there is still so much of this game that I don't know.
Also, I haven't ruled out Electronic warfare frigates, but if the gang needs me for that I would generally hop into a Blackbird or even a Scorpion.
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Gimpb
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Posted - 2008.07.14 00:58:00 -
[16]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
Originally by: Lokius Ahgamemnon Well for one I'd be able to kill a cruiser easier in a wolf then the cruiser would be able to kill me...you guys don't use your brains much I see...
Go, dig deeper! All the way, 6 feet perhaps!
There is not a single thing that the wolf can do better than the stabber. Except tank sansha plexes.
Well, the small sig radius and high sensor resolution of AFs are useful. They allow you to better pick fights.
However, those are the advantages of any frigate and most other frigates are at least faster or cheaper--and often both.
The AF role is one that could work, the taranis proves that, the current AFs are just missing one of the big advantages of frigates--speed.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.14 01:04:00 -
[17]
Go under 13km, get webbed, Stay over 13km, do pathetic damage.
If you like the first option, you're not bright. If you like the second option, you're better off in a cruiser. Perhaps the ishkur and harpy as exceptions, but cruisers STILL do it better.
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Crellion
Art of War
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Posted - 2008.07.14 01:33:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Lokius Ahgamemnon AF's don't suck they have their roll. Explain to me why when in a very small gang of 4 I can take down a drake and a malidiction in my wolf when were were outnumbered by 3?
I pass under your window and you are frying fish. - Toss me a meatball then! - Thanks but I quit smoking. Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.07.14 01:36:00 -
[19]
was closer to being outnumbered by two, and besides, you had a curse on your side ^.^
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.07.14 02:25:00 -
[20]
Edited by: DubanFP on 14/07/2008 02:42:54
Originally by: Dheorl
When saying about price dont forget to mention module price. The extra cost of cruiser sized modules can level out the price greatly overall.
Yeah a T2 fit Battlecruiser costs more then a T2 fit AF, but you can still run a T1 and cheap named fit Battlecrusier better then a t2 and best named AF anyways. It still winds up being stronger with the same cost more or less. _______________
CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears. |
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.07.14 02:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: AstroPhobic Go under 13km, get webbed, Stay over 13km, do pathetic damage.
If you like the first option, you're not bright. If you like the second option, you're better off in a cruiser. Perhaps the ishkur and harpy as exceptions, but cruisers STILL do it better.
Every time I mention this option people look at me like I'm insane. The 13 km web zone of doom is not actually all that bad for an AF vs a BS as long as you have an AB. Without the balooning sig radius, sticking at point blank range (> 1km) and orbiting can let you evade huge amounts of fire. Yes there are hitches in this plan (a BS with a MWD is generally faster than an AF with an AB, and closing range can thusly be a pain, a solo AF isn't going to generate the damage to kill the BS in any reasonable span of time and so on).
AF's are pack ships - yes there are better ships for their job, yes there are cheaper ships for the job but they can still DO their job. In my book the most valid complaint about the AF in general is the simple fact that their price point does not correpsond to their effectiveness. No one can really claim that a T1 frigate is superior to an AF, but unfortunately AF's are almost certainly inferior to T1 cruisers. If AF's were only marginally more expensive than T1 cruisers (6 - 8 million or so) then the ship would be much more attractive.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.14 02:52:00 -
[22]
You can't honestly justify the role of this ship as "killing things with no webs in packs". I've seen ravens with webs, drakes with webs. You find a ship with a web, and you're dieing. Yes, it can occasionally kill a bigger ship that fails to fit a web. So can a frigate. Even blind dogs find a bone every once and a while, doesn't make them superior in any way to dogs with eyes.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.07.14 02:56:00 -
[23]
Originally by: AstroPhobic You can't honestly justify the role of this ship as "killing things with no webs in packs". I've seen ravens with webs, drakes with webs. You find a ship with a web, and you're dieing. Yes, it can occasionally kill a bigger ship that fails to fit a web. So can a frigate. Even blind dogs find a bone every once and a while, doesn't make them superior in any way to dogs with eyes.
You misunderstand my point - first, webbing need not spell doom for an AF if you understand that at point blank range with your MWD clicked off you barely need to move at all to evade BS gun fire. Second, the fact that AF's are perfectly capable of getting kills in PVP indicates they are not useless, and indeed they can be fairly effective. The big issue is there are cheaper ships that do the job better, or more expensive ships that do the job better with higher odds of surival.
To me the most glaring issue with AF's is the cost in comparison with their effectiveness. At an average of 15+ million ISK, almost all of which is uninsured most players are going to leery of flying intentionally into battle when they could do just as well in a cruiser at half the price.
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.07.14 03:02:00 -
[24]
Edited by: DubanFP on 14/07/2008 03:02:35
Originally by: Derek Sigres 60x more than a Kessie, or 4x more than a Caracal
Why do you fail to take insurance into account? It's A LOT more then that. Like i said even Battlecruisers don't cost any more once it goes boom, which will happen. _______________
CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears. |
Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.07.14 03:06:00 -
[25]
Originally by: DubanFP Edited by: DubanFP on 14/07/2008 03:02:35
Originally by: Derek Sigres 60x more than a Kessie, or 4x more than a Caracal
Why do you fail to take insurance into account? It's A LOT more then that. Like i said even Battlecruisers don't cost any more once it goes boom, which will happen.
Because taking insurance into account does nothing but exacerbate the problem I'm illustrating
I don't know what the sweet spot for AF's would be for price but I'd certainly be willing to have them explode with regularity at 6 - 8 million ISK, especially considering a T2 fit for a frigate is almost insignificant cost wise.
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DubanFP
Caldari Four Rings Souls of Vengeance
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Posted - 2008.07.14 03:10:00 -
[26]
Edited by: DubanFP on 14/07/2008 03:13:08
Originally by: Derek Sigres Because taking insurance into account does nothing but exacerbate the problem I'm illustrating
I don't know what the sweet spot for AF's would be for price but I'd certainly be willing to have them explode with regularity at 6 - 8 million ISK, especially considering a T2 fit for a frigate is almost insignificant cost wise.
Even if they cost 6-8 mil they would be weak. Actually they're not too far off. The current cost is basically the cheapest Players find practical for building them considering the low demand.
Anyways CCP doesn't really control the price of T2 ships. Most of the cost of T2 ships is profit for the people who went through all the trouble of building them. As well as PoS costs to run the PoS that invents/builds in the first place. So it's not like they can just tweak a few numbers and have a new price.
The only really practical thing to do is either let them stay weak, completely rethink their poduction process which probebly won't happen, or give them a new role. _______________
CCP Atropos > I pod people because there's money to be made in selling tears. |
Monticore D'Muertos
Caldari Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.14 03:38:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Marcus Druallis
Originally by: Lokius Ahgamemnon AF's don't suck they have their roll. Explain to me why when in a very small gang of 4 I can take down a drake and a malidiction in my wolf when were were outnumbered by 3?
Cause the people you fought suck? BTW you might've been able to take out more if you were in something other than a wolf. dieThe idea is to win the engagement not get a couple kills before youdie.
if you want to kill things and survive long enough to get sell the loot you got, ceptors are the way to go.or t1 cruisers, hmm even t1 frigs way before you fly an af
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.14 03:44:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Lokius Ahgamemnon Well for one I'd be able to kill a cruiser easier in a wolf then the cruiser would be able to kill me...you guys don't use your brains much I see...
Actually a decently fitted PvP cruiser would massacre your Wolf. You'd need at least 3, probably 4 or 5 to effectively kill a good cruiser pilot.
In short, AFs are utter trash. Other ships are better in every possible PvP scenario:
For tackling, interceptors are better. The "heavy tackler" role was pretty much invented just to have an excuse to fly an AF, it doesn't actually exist. There is absolutely no reason to come in close to tackle when a 24k inty can do the job so much better.
For killing frigates, destroyers are better. More range, much more tracking, and more damage.
For everything else, T1 cruisers are better. More damage, more tank, more speed, and less cost.
The ONLY time an AF should ever be used is as a sensor-boosted remote repped tackler in a sentry-tanking lowsec gatecamp. An AF has the best scan resolution of all the ships that can actually survive the gate guns long enough for the remote repping ship to save them.
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.07.14 05:23:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Merin Ryskin Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 14/07/2008 03:46:40
Originally by: Lokius Ahgamemnon Well for one I'd be able to kill a cruiser easier in a wolf then the cruiser would be able to kill me...you guys don't use your brains much I see...
Actually a decently fitted PvP cruiser would massacre your Wolf. You'd need at least 3, probably 4 or 5 to effectively kill a good cruiser pilot.
In short, AFs are utter trash. Other ships are better in every possible PvP scenario:
For tackling, interceptors are better. The "heavy tackler" role was pretty much invented just to have an excuse to fly an AF, it doesn't actually exist. There is absolutely no reason to come in close to tackle when a 24k inty can do the job so much better.
For killing frigates, destroyers are better. More range, much more tracking, and more damage.
For everything else, T1 cruisers are better. More damage, more tank, more speed, and less cost.
The ONLY time an AF should ever be used is as a sensor-boosted remote repped tackler in a sentry-tanking lowsec gatecamp. An AF has the best scan resolution of all the ships that can actually survive the gate guns long enough for the remote repping ship to save them. Lowering the price does not change this simple fact: they're useless ships, and a waste of a pilot at any price. Even if AFs were given out for free, fully fitted, I'd STILL have my policy of blowing up anyone who brings such a worthless ship to my fleet.
3 would be a fair number against a good cruiser pilot to be honest. The DPS generated would rapidly melt the cruiser, more than likely before the cruiser could pick apart one of the wolfs. 5 is giving the cruiser pilot a lot of credit and the assumption he fit entirely to fight the wolves.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.07.14 05:56:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Derek Sigres 3 would be a fair number against a good cruiser pilot to be honest. The DPS generated would rapidly melt the cruiser, more than likely before the cruiser could pick apart one of the wolfs. 5 is giving the cruiser pilot a lot of credit and the assumption he fit entirely to fight the wolves.
That's pretty much what I meant by that. One is suicide for the AF. Two is a hard fight, the cruiser can quickly kill one, and stands a pretty good chance of taking down the other before it dies. Three would be a pretty good fight, maybe biased a bit towards the AFs depending on the cruiser setup, but it's going to end with at least one dead AF. I'd say you'd need four to ensure a quick kill without worrying about losses, five if your AF pilots suck and the cruiser pilot is a max-skill PvP veteran.
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