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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
399
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Posted - 2012.03.20 18:51:00 -
[271] - Quote
Don't forget Thomas and Popper citations plus the unavoidable Soros mention! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Xaqa
Cryptic Arch
3
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Posted - 2012.04.08 18:49:00 -
[272] - Quote
walls of tasty tasty text The Cryptic Arch - Always Building |
Herping yourDerp
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
474
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Posted - 2012.04.08 19:57:00 -
[273] - Quote
problem with NPC banks is they will either A give interest, thus being an isk faucet B give no interest and be worthless C give something ( loyalty points or something) and become a huge advantage for rich folk to just farm the stuff.. |
Reopagus
State War Academy Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.04.09 06:34:00 -
[274] - Quote
I think one solution would be for CCP to implement a fund release approval for corporations by transaction amount and by amount of transactions. So that multiple people can be required to approve funds transfers, but what is also important, it must be tiered.
So this sample scenario must be possible to implement (with ranges needing to be arbitrary to set up per corporation): for range 0.01-10KK ISK, no approval needed, 10KK -100,000,000 ISK - 1 extra person must approve before funds leave the account, 100KK - 1KKK ISK - 2 people would need to approve before money goes out, 1KKK - 50KKK ISK - 3 people, 50KKK-1KKKK ISK - 4 people.
This solution MUST also go along with another feature - there must be a way to set a limit on transactions per person. If one person can issue 20 fund transfers per day, on a 21 fund transfer, the extra person sign-off should be bumped one level up. Another 20 transfers reached, another bump in sign-off requirement.
This would be a perfect [well, as far as the current situation allows] to implement a fiscal control for a bank, should one be created. Yes, this is somewhat bureaucratic but this will actually work and don't believe CCP if they tell you it's hard to create, it is simple to implement!!
Icing on the cake, of course, would be API capability to transfer ISK programmatically.
As for the banks - I think there's a way to make it work, and it has been numerously mentioned. POSTOM [as in Player Operated STOck Market].
Something important to also consider in this discussion is that currency must be backed by something. Gold in RL (at least, it was before and it should be, in the case of US Dollar), PLEX in EVE? |
Siren Pavonis
Courier Hawks
0
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Posted - 2012.04.09 12:20:00 -
[275] - Quote
DISCLAIMER: I won't pretend to have read all posts in this thread - by no means - so I will probably repeat stuff said by others.
Having said that, the biggest problem in EVE banking would be the inability to 'hurt' people. In RL, a loan, bank account, credit card contract, bond etc is a legally binding document. When one party breaks the contract, this party can (and will) be punished in some way. Even in case of bankruptcy, the assets are sold and all revenues go to the creditors (details ofc differ per jurisdiction). As there is no such thing as a legal entity in EVE - safe for CONCORD, which only deals with killings - no one will have to face the consequences for breaking a (loan) contract.
One can just run away with any loan, and the bank will never see its money again. On the other hand, I'd dare to say the absence of a banking industry stifles economic growth (for as far as that can be measured in EVE), as everyone is just holding on to their money; few will dare to spend 90% of their capital on an investment that only yields several % profits. In these cases, having a loan by a bank will lower the 'barrier' to spending money
Some here have mentioned NPC banks. This doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. While NPC banks would probably indeed be trusted, an NPC bank is by definition somewhat of a robot. How can a robot determine what the risks are corporation X will (not) pay back its loans? No way it can. While several NPC banks already exist in name (e.g. Bank of Luminaire, Caldari Funds Unlimited), the only role I could imagine for an NPC bank would be a 'bank of last resort', i.e. a central bank where player-run banks could temporarily borrow money from in case of a bankrun or something similar. This would clash with the story-line tho, at least in the case of Caldari.
Though, in the end, relatively safe loans are already possible with the current game mechanics. While they are not meant for loans, you can simply use the courier contract system as an impromptu loan system. (e.g. the borrower makes the contract, say for one jump in Hisec. When the lender accepts the contract, the collateral becomes the loan. The borrower and lender then agree that the lender delivers the package - that contains something negligible - in say 2 weeks time. The package is delivered, the collateral/loan is transferred back to the lender and the reward functions as the interest rate). |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
565
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Posted - 2012.04.09 12:25:00 -
[276] - Quote
Siren Pavonis wrote:While they are not meant for loans, you can simply use the courier contract system as an impromptu loan system.
That's not a bad idea, though the durations are a bit short. |
Siren Pavonis
Courier Hawks
0
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Posted - 2012.04.09 12:54:00 -
[277] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Siren Pavonis wrote:While they are not meant for loans, you can simply use the courier contract system as an impromptu loan system. That's not a bad idea, though the durations are a bit short.
That is true. Just 2 weeks is not very long. On the other hand this also gives some more trust by giving a series of small incremental loans. In that way, the lender would at least partially get back his/her money in a short time span. Besides, everything in EVE goes faster than in RL anyway; no one is gonna buy a 20-year bond as is possible in RL. We don't even know if EVE still exists in 20 years from now! |
Nelthraneos
The Rogue Conglomerate
3
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Posted - 2012.04.09 14:19:00 -
[278] - Quote
I'm not sure if its been mentioned before in the thread (I have a short attention span and there are a lot of pages on this).
Personally I'd love to run a bank in EVE and effectively do services to earn ISK for the bank, etc
The main problems are that you can't run a bank in EVE like you can in real life; as follows:
1) Your personal wallet is 100% safe, besides your account being hacked, so there is no requirement to own a bank account to keep your money safe in the game.
2) CCP doesn't back the bank like national banks safeguard deposits in RL banks - The UK guarentees the first -ú85,000 deposit with each financial institute (The more you spread your money, the safer you are).
3) As mentioned above, accountability. If you scarper with the money, all CCP can do is look at maybe banning you from the game, but according to their sandbox vision they don't want to stop people being nasty in game.
I can't see any reason why people would use a bank in EVE unless there's a large interest rate, but even then its purely on trust. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
516
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Posted - 2012.04.09 14:43:00 -
[279] - Quote
If the bank could gather a core 50-100B (not so hard these days) then it's possible to secure up to 243 simultaneous transactions per banker account in a way to give a ceiling of say 20% max loss (may be decided in advance) per bank customer in case of full bank default / scam. That would require some more tellering work though. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
565
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Posted - 2012.04.09 14:55:00 -
[280] - Quote
It occurred to me a new possibility with some sort of "loan mechanic" in Eve. The suspect flag. Late on a payment? Suspect flag gets turned on until you are no longer in default. Now everyone can take a shot at you.
Still lots of room for meta game manipulation and biomass games, but does open up possibilities. |
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Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
27
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Posted - 2012.04.09 14:59:00 -
[281] - Quote
Herping yourDerp wrote:problem with NPC banks is they will either A give interest, thus being an isk faucet B give no interest and be worthless C give something ( loyalty points or something) and become a huge advantage for rich folk to just farm the stuff.
Siren Pavonis wrote:Some here have mentioned NPC banks. This doesn't seem like a very good idea to me. While NPC banks would probably indeed be trusted, an NPC bank is by definition somewhat of a robot. How can a robot determine what the risks are corporation X will (not) pay back its loans? No way it can.
The consensus on the first page of this thread was that NPC banks add nothing of value to the game. This thread is largely concerned with the difficulties of player-run banks. Andarius Trading Corp. | Borrowers and Trustees of MD |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
516
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Posted - 2012.04.09 15:21:00 -
[282] - Quote
The consensus on the first page of this thread was that NPC banks add nothing of value to the game. This thread is largely concerned with the difficulties of player-run banks.[/quote]
Main problem ATM is not that they have difficulties. Difficulties can ALWAYS be overcome. It's just that it's too much menial work for little reward. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
27
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Posted - 2012.04.09 15:24:00 -
[283] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Main problem ATM is not that they have difficulties. Difficulties can ALWAYS be overcome. It's just that it's too much menial work for little reward.
I am guessing you are not referring to deposit/withdrawals, since that is largely automated. Do you mean the menial work of a team of people investing all that ISK and getting little personal return from it? Andarius Trading Corp. | Borrowers and Trustees of MD |
Siren Pavonis
Courier Hawks
0
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Posted - 2012.04.09 16:43:00 -
[284] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:It occurred to me a new possibility with some sort of "loan mechanic" in Eve. The suspect flag. Late on a payment? Suspect flag gets turned on until you are no longer in default. Now everyone can take a shot at you.
Still lots of room for meta game manipulation and biomass games, but does open up possibilities.
That would make it unlikely for a single individual to scam a bank, but this would in no way prevent a bank failure if a group decided to rip off the bank. Making someone a kill target doesn't get the money back. |
Barakach
R-ISK Shadow Operations.
36
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Posted - 2012.04.09 16:51:00 -
[285] - Quote
It could be something similar to a corp wallet. Then maybe the "bank" can set min/max transaction sizes min/max account sizes, daily withdraw/deposit caps. Stuff like this.
Allow the bank to make use of a percentage those funds, possibly modifiable via a new skill.
We don't need a chequing account, we need a savings account. We need an easy way for the account hold to deposit and withdraw. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
567
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Posted - 2012.04.09 16:52:00 -
[286] - Quote
Siren Pavonis wrote: That would make it unlikely for a single individual to scam a bank, but this would in no way prevent a bank failure if a group decided to rip off the bank. Making someone a kill target doesn't get the money back.
All quite true. Doesn't mean it can be expanded out to an alliance level and the issue of bonds and such things. I'd refer to an older thread about bonds that I did months ago if I weren't too lazy to go look it up. |
Siren Pavonis
Courier Hawks
0
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Posted - 2012.04.10 15:40:00 -
[287] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:Siren Pavonis wrote: That would make it unlikely for a single individual to scam a bank, but this would in no way prevent a bank failure if a group decided to rip off the bank. Making someone a kill target doesn't get the money back.
All quite true. Doesn't mean it can be expanded out to an alliance level and the issue of bonds and such things. I'd refer to an older thread about bonds that I did months ago if I weren't too lazy to go look it up.
An alliance-wide flag? Wow. That would be something. That would actually give tremendous power to banks, something that wouldn't be exactly fair from a competition point of view. But I'm guessing you' re not proposing that anyway. On the other hand, several ... ahum... well-known alliances would probably try to scam banks on a big scale if they got the chance to do so. Alternatively, you could in theory set up a kind of New-Eden-wide arbitration board (who's members are corps) who could hold a 'trial' against a corp/alliance that scammed a financial institution; and who's members than all wardec this corp/alliance if the verdict is 'guilty'. However, the practical matters of such an arbitration board would be rather difficult - I don't imagine many corps joining, as there needs to be some-kind of advantage for corps to join.
Still, I'd prefer punishments to be in the form of financial punishments, as this is mostly a financial matter in the first place. Having said that, any bank that feels it needs to take revenge can of course put a bounty on someone's head, or hire mercenaries to kill that person. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
574
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Posted - 2012.04.10 15:56:00 -
[288] - Quote
Siren Pavonis wrote:Adunh Slavy wrote:Siren Pavonis wrote: That would make it unlikely for a single individual to scam a bank, but this would in no way prevent a bank failure if a group decided to rip off the bank. Making someone a kill target doesn't get the money back.
All quite true. Doesn't mean it can be expanded out to an alliance level and the issue of bonds and such things. I'd refer to an older thread about bonds that I did months ago if I weren't too lazy to go look it up. An alliance-wide flag? Wow. That would be something. That would actually give tremendous power to banks, something that wouldn't be exactly fair from a competition point of view. But I'm guessing you' re not proposing that anyway. On the other hand, several ... ahum... well-known alliances would probably try to scam banks on a big scale if they got the chance to do so.
My idea was not banks, so much as bonds. A corp or alliance would sell bonds to anyone, and if they were in default, then the bond holder alliances/corps or individuals had kill rights on that entire alliance until the bond issuing group was no longer in default. In my idea, there was no "bank", just bonds.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
524
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Posted - 2012.04.10 16:06:00 -
[289] - Quote
It's all already possible today, by smartly using contracts and with a controlled maximum risk.
Does not mean it'd be worth doing though. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
102
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Posted - 2012.04.10 17:53:00 -
[290] - Quote
Banks ... We dont need em.
(Your isk is allready in a virtual bank account ... Player run banks would be there only for making isk by offering you risk of loosing it all in a blaze of C&P glory) |
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Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
190
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Posted - 2012.04.10 20:11:00 -
[291] - Quote
Hexxx wrote:" ...As the increased money supply wasnGÇÿt increasing trade to the same degree, the result was a lower velocity of money. An important factor in this was probably the absence of a trusted banking sector, which could offer interest and distribute the unused ISK to those in need of funds..." - CCP Recurve, Dev Blog: Price Indices GÇô February 2012 http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=9115
A year ago I pointed out that despite the rising money supply the Eve Economy was actually deflating, I called it the Liquidity Trap.
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Dror Roidcrusher
Balls of Megacyte
25
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Posted - 2012.04.10 21:56:00 -
[292] - Quote
EVE has never had a bank comparable to RL and never will because the players are douchebags who can't be trusted with the creation of isk based on IOUs by other douchebags. If a bunch of dudes privately created their own currency (corp shares can be used for this), it could work within their happy little system, but that's pretty much it.
CCP will not let players near the creation of ISK.
Nice 15 pages. |
Siren Pavonis
Courier Hawks
1
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Posted - 2012.04.11 19:28:00 -
[293] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote: My idea was not banks, so much as bonds. A corp or alliance would sell bonds to anyone, and if they were in default, then the bond holder alliances/corps or individuals had kill rights on that entire alliance until the bond issuing group was no longer in default. In my idea, there was no "bank", just bonds.
Hmm.... that's actually quite an interesting idea indeed.
Cedo Nulli wrote: Banks ... We dont need em.
(Your isk is allready in a virtual bank account ... Player run banks would be there only for making isk by offering you risk of loosing it all in a blaze of C&P glory)
You're only looking at one side of a bank - the 'front' door common to all ppl in RL. You're forgetting a very important aspect of banks: corporate loans (or the 'backdoor'). How do you think an RL bank can give you interest on your account? It uses your money to give out a loan to a company, which then pays interest over that loan, part of which is then used as your very own interest on your savings account. Without these loans, many companies would not be able to exist, and hence this would be bad for the economy. Hence, having a trusted banking sector in EVE might be good for the EVE economy.
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Dror Roidcrusher
Balls of Megacyte
25
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Posted - 2012.04.11 21:21:00 -
[294] - Quote
Siren Pavonis wrote:It uses your money to give out a loan to a company It seems you too are forgetting a very important aspect of banks It uses the act of writing a number into a balance sheet to give out a loan to a company, "your money" has nothing to do with it |
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
27
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Posted - 2012.04.11 21:33:00 -
[295] - Quote
Dror Roidcrusher wrote:EVE has never had a bank comparable to RL and never will because the players are douchebags who can't be trusted with the creation of isk based on IOUs by other douchebags...CCP will not let players near the creation of ISK.
Dror Roidcrusher wrote:It seems you too are forgetting a very important aspect of banks. It uses the act of writing a number into a balance sheet to give out a loan to a company, "your money" has nothing to do with it. It's a great system and good for the economy as you correctly point out, but you can't let douchebag players in a computer game with no ultimate consequences near currency creation.
You seem to have the false impression that private commercial banks have the ability to create money. Andarius Trading Corp. | Borrowers and Trustees of MD |
Dror Roidcrusher
Balls of Megacyte
25
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Posted - 2012.04.11 21:37:00 -
[296] - Quote
I do have that impression, but it is not false. |
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
27
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Posted - 2012.04.11 21:37:00 -
[297] - Quote
Dror Roidcrusher wrote:I do have that impression, but it is not false.
Andarius Trading Corp. | Borrowers and Trustees of MD |
Dror Roidcrusher
Balls of Megacyte
25
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Posted - 2012.04.11 21:41:00 -
[298] - Quote
"Your money" in the bank is a liability of the bank (to pay you the amount). A loan to a company creates a new deposit, that deposit is also liability of the bank (in return, the bank gets an IOU from the company to pay back the bank over time). It is impossible to say your deposit (which is also a liability of the bank) somehow becomes another liability.
sorry if it disappoints you but this is operational reality in modern times |
Jake Andarius
Andarius Trading Corp.
27
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Posted - 2012.04.11 21:52:00 -
[299] - Quote
Dror Roidcrusher wrote:"Your money" in the bank is a liability of the bank (to pay you the amount). A loan to a company creates a new deposit, that deposit is also liability of the bank (in return, the bank gets an IOU from the company to pay back the bank over time). It is impossible to say your deposit (which is also a liability of the bank) somehow becomes another liability.
Your example of a bank loaning out its deposits fails to demonstrate how it has created money.
(Minor correction: When a bank loans out money to an individual, that loan becomes an asset of the bank, not a liability. Liabilities are obligations to pay someone else. In a loan, the borrower has a liability, the bank has an asset. So, the bank has liabilities on its balance sheet from deposits, and it has assets on its balance sheet from loans.) Andarius Trading Corp. | Borrowers and Trustees of MD |
Dror Roidcrusher
Balls of Megacyte
25
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Posted - 2012.04.11 22:11:00 -
[300] - Quote
A deposit is a liability of a bank. You have a deposit of 5000 ISK in the bank. This means that on your demand, the bank must pay you 5000 ISK.
Or maybe imagine this: you took a loan from a bank for 5000 ISK. Your account now somehow has 5000 ISK. If this was not a liability of the bank to pay you, how would you go about using this money? Say you for whichever reason need to pay me 1000 ISK. What are you going to pay me with, your liability to pay the bank? No, you will make it so that the bank now owes me 1000 ISK, leaving you with 4000. |
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