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Are droneboats welcome in mid-large sized fleet battles?

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Author	Topic
Ragnar Dannaskjold	Posted - 2008.07.16 04:15:00 - [1] I play gallente, and I am currently planning on skilling up drones heavily while I progress from vexor-myrmidon-dominix. I have heard that droneboats are excellent mission runners and are capable in solo pvp, but are they useful in bigger fleet battles? What would your role be? I have seen some posts here where fleet commanders mention that they would prefer it that people don't bring drone ships... Thanks -newb
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.16 04:23:00 - [2] A domi with guns + sentry drones might be worth a try.
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.07.16 04:23:00 - [3] Edited by: Zeba on 16/07/2008 04:24:26 Drone boats are not welcome in large fleet battles for the same reason Ravens are usually shunned. Guns are insta hit and drones/missiles are not. If your in a smaller roaving gang I don't see much issue with flying a drone boat as the ranges tend to be very small. Originally by: Yakia TovilToba A domi with guns + sentry drones might be worth a try. You need to fill your highs with drone link augmentors to get the required range on sentrys so no guns for your Domi. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Farrqua Minmatar Turbo Mining Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.16 04:32:00 - [4] Work on your drone skills for the move to cap ships. that is where they shine really in fleet ops. Also if you are flying Gal BS, Sniperthon is the way to go. If you have drones just assign them to some one in the mix. Or you can bring armor rep drones with your mega. Otherwise Domi's are pretty useless in a med-large fleet type ops.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.07.16 05:07:00 - [5] Great as an anti-support ship. If you try to snipe with a domi, then that is pretty dumb. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.16 05:30:00 - [6] Originally by: Zeba Originally by: Yakia TovilToba A domi with guns + sentry drones might be worth a try. You need to fill your highs with drone link augmentors to get the required range on sentrys so no guns for your Domi. Why would you need that ? As far as i know those sentry drones don't fly to the target, they engage right away when the target is in range. Bouncer IIs have 48km optimal + 42km falloff, Warden IIs even 60km optimal, so with the drone sniper skill (+25% optimal) that should be enough range. So you have that nasty sentry drones that deal more damage than heavy drones (if tracking is not an issue) and next to that you have 5 or 6 rails, with ship bonus for both. That sounds like lot's of dps ? And when the enemy fleet drops on top of you, other snipers won't be able to do much, while the domi can scoop the sentry drones and get out 5 heavy medium or light drones, because of that huge dronebay.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.07.16 06:06:00 - [7] Fleetbattles are fought over distances of 140-160+ Drones won't help you there.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2008.07.16 06:20:00 - [8] Originally by: Batolemaeus Fleetbattles are fought over distances of 140-160+ Drones won't help you there. Have you heard of sentry drones before?
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.07.16 06:23:00 - [9] Edited by: Batolemaeus on 16/07/2008 06:25:24 Have you fought in any fleetbattle before? "No guys, i can't align to warpout point, my drones are out..." Btw. warden II assuming the relevant skills to 5, reach only about 110km on a domi with three omnidirectionals..you won't hit anything with them with a falloff of only 30k..
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2008.07.16 06:24:00 - [10] Originally by: Kyra Felann Originally by: Batolemaeus Fleetbattles are fought over distances of 140-160+ Drones won't help you there. Have you heard of sentry drones before? Have you heard of math before? Show me the sentry drone that can hit at 160km please. -- http://desusig.crumplecorn.com/sigs.html

Hieronimus Rex	Posted - 2008.07.16 06:27:00 - [11] Drones are an excellent way to cause lag. If you launch drones and abandon them to cause lag, this is an exploit, but if they're the 5 drones you can usually launch, then its a great way to stop the fleet jumping to you from ever loading before you kill them.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.16 07:09:00 - [12] Originally by: Batolemaeus Fleetbattles are fought over distances of 140-160+ Drones won't help you there. No, actually that distances are very uncommon. Ask yourself, how many times have your fleet been fighting at 140-160, compared to fleetfights below 100km ? And FYI (because of your other post): you don't need much time to scoop sentry drones, since they are right next to your ship and don't fly 40+km away, if your fleetmembers can't even allign because of that, you must be in a fleet of ******s.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.16 07:13:00 - [13] Originally by: Vaal Erit Have you heard of math before? Show me the sentry drone that can hit at 160km please. The OP didn't ask for long range sniping fleet setups. And a ship that can chose it's optimal range while in battle (diffrent dronetypes due huge dronebay) from 0 to over 100km is definitely a good fleet ship for standard fleets.
Malcanis We are Legend	Posted - 2008.07.16 07:15:00 - [14] Originally by: Ragnar Dannaskjold I play gallente, and I am currently planning on skilling up drones heavily while I progress from vexor-myrmidon-dominix. I have heard that droneboats are excellent mission runners and are capable in solo pvp, but are they useful in bigger fleet battles? What would your role be? I have seen some posts here where fleet commanders mention that they would prefer it that people don't bring drone ships... Thanks -newb Well that is the shortest path to getting into a Thanatos, and they're certainly welcome! CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Stab Wounds Caldari	Posted - 2008.07.16 07:21:00 - [15] Originally by: Hieronimus Rex Drones are an excellent way to cause lag. If you launch drones and abandon them to cause lag, this is an exploit, but if they're the 5 drones you can usually launch, then its a great way to stop the fleet jumping to you from ever loading before you kill them. this. gallente militia knows this exploit well.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.07.16 08:48:00 - [16] Edited by: Batolemaeus on 16/07/2008 08:48:55 Originally by: Yakia TovilToba No, actually that distances are very uncommon. About 80% != uncommon. Originally by: Yakia TovilToba And FYI (because of your other post): you don't need much time to scoop sentry drones, since they are right next to your ship and don't fly 40+km away, if your fleetmembers can't even allign because of that, you must be in a fleet of ******s. As you obviously do not fly in bs-heavy fleets, i'll explain this for you: In case of a battle, your fc will order you to align towards a warp-out point. If you take damage, you warp out to this point, and depending on fc and fleet composition, there will be logistics waiting for you, as they are not very useful in a laggy situation on the front. This means, with sentries deployed, you will neither hit nor be able to be aligned towards the warp out. So you will either be ignored by the enemy, or primaried because you are not moving. Either way, you are useless as a bs in the bs fleet. A domi in the support fleet is a nice thing, but if you are able to fly domi, you can fly mega and stay in the bs fleet instead of support..and if you don't have the skills to fly a mega, you shouldn't sit in a domi either.
Kellyl Gallente Integrity.	Posted - 2008.07.16 10:12:00 - [17] Originally by: Stab Wounds Originally by: Hieronimus Rex Drones are an excellent way to cause lag. If you launch drones and abandon them to cause lag, this is an exploit, but if they're the 5 drones you can usually launch, then its a great way to stop the fleet jumping to you from ever loading before you kill them. this. gallente militia knows this exploit well. Exploit you say? Nothing to do with the fact that a major portion of gallente ships use drones for main damage in small-mid scale PvP. It's always an exploit when you are killed by it. Originally by: CCP Greyscale Faction HAMs will almost certainly be showing up in the next content patch Boiled or Roasted?
Fujiko MaXjolt Caldari Templar Republic	Posted - 2008.07.16 10:19:00 - [18] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: Vaal Erit Have you heard of math before? Show me the sentry drone that can hit at 160km please. The OP didn't ask for long range sniping fleet setups. And a ship that can chose it's optimal range while in battle (diffrent dronetypes due huge dronebay) from 0 to over 100km is definitely a good fleet ship for standard fleets. Wow, you really haven't been in a real fleet-fight, have you ? OP asked if it would work in a fleet-fight, and drones don't work in fleet-fights. Period.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.16 10:52:00 - [19] Originally by: Fujiko MaXjolt Wow, you really haven't been in a real fleet-fight, have you ? OP asked if it would work in a fleet-fight, and drones don't work in fleet-fights. Period. I have been in quite many fleetfights with differnt chars in the past few years, and the very most battles happened with ranges below 100km. This has something to do with the fact that you can warp at max 100km to an object, so when you warp to a gate or station at optimals, your targets are hardly more than 115km away, thats why the setup+ammo choice is often made for this distance. Fleets specialized on long distance fights take a lot of preparation, you need bookmarks at the location the fight will take place: this usually won't be the case if you have fleets moving around in hostile space. Or you need covops or similar ships to sneak on a enemy fleet, so that your fleet can warp in further than 100km to an object, and this not often the case, it sound good in theory but there are many reasons why a fight won't happen at this distance. If the enemy has a 160km combat range and your fleet only 100km, there won't be a fight, very simple, your fleet will warp out and warp in within 100km (or whatever your fleet optimal setup is). And for that distances, sniper drones work fine, period. The guy above who says that 80% of fleetbattles take place at distances of 140km, is in fleet specialized for high ranges or he simply lies/makes a wrong estimation. A standard fleet does not fight at 140km+ 80% of time, that's simply not a realistic number for a standard fleet.
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.07.16 11:05:00 - [20] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba The guy above who says that 80% of fleetbattles take place at distances of 140km, is in fleet specialized for high ranges or he simply lies/makes a wrong estimation. Of course, i lie about our fleet compositions to lure bob into traps where we strike with battleships that shoot even FURTHER! The bs-fleet with the highest range has significant advantages over a fleet not being able to hit them at their outer optimal. You get at this point via warp-ins made by either coverts, support, or ceptors. If you have a few trained people making your warp ins, you can always bubble your enemy, warp in the heavy artillery at the edge of your optimal, and shoot them while they can't reach you. That's why the engagement range of battleship fleets increased over time and certain ships are not used that much anymore (mini bs for example). If you can't provide your fleet with warp-ins within a short amount of time, then that's sad. But this is how large engagements work. If you want to kill a large capfleet, a cynojammer, or another bs fleet, you will try to get as much range between you and your target as possible. The only exception are pre planned assaults on the enemy where you know that he will not bring a sniping fleet that could kill your entire fleet without any chance to counter it. And those are very rare, especially in large fleets

Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises	Posted - 2008.07.16 11:07:00 - [21] Originally by: Yakia TovilToba Originally by: Fujiko MaXjolt Wow, you really haven't been in a real fleet-fight, have you ? OP asked if it would work in a fleet-fight, and drones don't work in fleet-fights. Period. I have been in quite many fleetfights with differnt chars in the past few years, and the very most battles happened with ranges below 100km. This has something to do with the fact that you can warp at max 100km to an object, so when you warp to a gate or station at optimals, your targets are hardly more than 115km away, thats why the setup+ammo choice is often made for this distance. Fleets specialized on long distance fights take a lot of preparation, you need bookmarks at the location the fight will take place: this usually won't be the case if you have fleets moving around in hostile space. Or you need covops or similar ships to sneak on a enemy fleet, so that your fleet can warp in further than 100km to an object, and this not often the case, it sound good in theory but there are many reasons why a fight won't happen at this distance. If the enemy has a 160km combat range and your fleet only 100km, there won't be a fight, very simple, your fleet will warp out and warp in within 100km (or whatever your fleet optimal setup is). And for that distances, sniper drones work fine, period. The guy above who says that 80% of fleetbattles take place at distances of 140km, is in fleet specialized for high ranges or he simply lies/makes a wrong estimation. A standard fleet does not fight at 140km+ 80% of time, that's simply not a realistic number for a standard fleet. it doe snot work this way. Before your own battleships align out to re warp a sablre will pop a bubble on you. You land at 100 km one of your ships wil ldie instantly if the enemy FC is good. then the enemy interdictors have a wreck to warp in. If you mnake a BS fleet oriented to fight at 100 km then you will be slaughtered in 90% of the serious fleet fights invlving serious alliances. Simple. If your range is < 150 km then for all sake, go down to < 40 km because you are loosign nothing but at least can focus more on damage and close range tactics. 100 km is among the worse ranges a fleet can be setuped to fight. Wil be slaughterd by a short range fleet and also by long range fleets. ------------------------------------------------- If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.07.16 11:13:00 - [22] Why aren't close range ships like drone boats dropped on enemy sniping fleets mid-battle? - DesuSigs
Mephistophilis Cygnus Alpha Syndicate	Posted - 2008.07.16 11:23:00 - [23] IMO Long range, domi is not welcome, same with a raven. Like was said before, you can't align to warp with sentries out. Just use a Mega! Close range, least preffered however they do make a nice primary target and with the mix of drones, you could concentrate on cruisers, frigs and general anti-support ship as said before. The domi can pack on hell of a tank if fitted correctly, they just don't give the initial dmg needed in a fleet battle. p.s i do love my domi though
Batolemaeus Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2008.07.16 11:24:00 - [24] Originally by: Crumplecorn Why aren't close range ships like drone boats dropped on enemy sniping fleets mid-battle? Has been tried, and you often try to drop your own supportfleet on the enemy snipers. The problem is, that you can not always do it, so it is more effective to just stick to sniping battleships that you can always use instead of wasting manpower for a tactic that can not be applied in every engagement. Especially in a laggy situation, it doesn't work well. Nice on paper, but very hard in real combat with bubbles all around and a good portion of your potential firepower busy with trying to get out of bubbles, trying to get a warp in, and finally warping to the enemy snipers. While you try that, the battle is often over.
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.16 11:27:00 - [25] Originally by: Kagura Nikon 100 km is among the worse ranges a fleet can be setuped to fight. Wil be slaughterd by a short range fleet and also by long range fleets. It's not a 100km-fleet as such, it usually had shorter standard range, but people could go that far by switching ammo. It usually were not 100% bs fleets aswell and for many battelcruiser-sized ships 100km+ is a pain anways. From what i've expirienced so far, the majority of fleetfights were dynamic battles, many of which happend at gates anyways, when chasing another fleet etc. A classic fleet battle on 140km+, where both fleets were fitted for that ranges so that noone disengaged and warped out is just a very rare event based on my expirience, compared to all the other fights. So when someone says "fleetfight" i don't think he means that 140km fight, and when he asks for a fleet setup i don't think the setup must meet that criteria aswell, otherwise he'd ask for a sniper fleet fight.
Cs3Sl2 Caldari Wreckless Abandon Un-Natural Selection	Posted - 2008.07.16 11:30:00 - [26] Anyone that says any ship isn't welcome is just wrong and losing vital pilots from his fleet!! The Raven may be seen as the exception to this because of its missile fight time, but fit 4 damps in your ravens mids and if your in a sniping fleet you've just knocked out 2-4 of there ships from the fight (ship type/distance dependant). But back to the OP: The dominix should always be welcome in a fleet fight. Fit it for support killing and maybe even the medic role, so 2 x large neutralizers and 3 x large remote reps, throw a drone lin aug in there and pack sentries. Fit and omni-tracking link in there and anything that comes and stays with in 25km should die in your hands or runaway either way job done. Cs
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Fnck the blob.	Posted - 2008.07.16 11:39:00 - [27] Edited by: umop 3pisdn on 16/07/2008 11:43:56 In a mid range gang a sentry domi is terrifying, the DPS is great, it has remote reps and energy neuts, good range, better than average tracking and a good tank, it can really be the heart of a carrier or pos killing BS group. BUT in "real" fleets it is not so good, these fleets generally want t2 large long range guns fitted with an optimal range of 150km or more this is possible, barely, with a sentry drone domi but one of the many problems is that the drones dont move. The way a battleship stays alive in fleets is by aligning at full speed towards a planet or something, as soon as the enemy fleet locks or fires at it en masse it warps out and comes back in later to rinse and repeat, trading shots with the enemy. You cannot hope to withstand the fire of 10 or more BS in a fight like this and it is more likely to be 50+ hitting you at once, so you warp straight out and come back later, if you have sentrys you will leave them behind and lose them. Dominix is a great battleship, but you cant be a real sniper with it. Dont be put off though, you can still be good in support sized ships until you decide to make the long long train to t2 large guns. Drone ships are awesome for everything else tbh, stick with it
Vladimir Griftin	Posted - 2008.07.16 11:39:00 - [28] Originally by: Cs3Sl2 Anyone that says any ship isn't welcome is just wrong and losing vital pilots from his fleet!! Its not that the ships aren't welcome, its just that they are the worst fleet ships. In a big fleet you need to be able to warp around quickly, you need to be constantly full speed aligned, or MWDing out of bubbles. Sentries are useless unless your willing to just abandon them after each warp out. Heavies are just too slow, you'd be sat there waiting for them to return while the rest of your fleet is in warp coming back round for another sling. Good fleets are about being mobile, get in and out fast, instant damage before the enemy can react and a quick evac if it goes to hell to save unnecessary losses. Ravens and Domi's happen to be bottom of the pile when it comes to whats needed. Not that they don't have uses, I mean you can come up with a use for a Velator in a fleet, it doesn't mean its very good at it.
Pride NL Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.07.16 11:39:00 - [29] If a domi is your only choice, i'd go for armor/shield rep bots and smaller anti-support drones. You will be in a support role and not in a attacking role. Exuro Mortis - The 2nd Coming
Karunel Princeps Corp T e r c i o s	Posted - 2008.07.16 11:58:00 - [30] Originally by: Kyra Felann Originally by: Batolemaeus Fleetbattles are fought over distances of 140-160+ Drones won't help you there. Have you heard of sentry drones before? Failed maths, uh? ____ Originally by: elbenito The problem with large fleet engagements is that the hamsters stop to watch.

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