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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.16 23:18:00 -
[1]
 Originally by: Zagamesh
Excellent work Captain. Nowhere is safe for the enemies of freedom.
Oh, that one's rich. "Enemies of freedom"? I've been called a lot of things in my time, but I've never been accused of that one before.
Anyway, thank you, Pilot Ethenwe, for providing some of our rookie pilots with a much-needed education. I assure you, those people were a LONG way from representing the best our forces have to offer.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.19 11:19:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Zagamesh
A certain degree of barbarity is required in this war - to ensure the safety and survival of the Federation against an evil and immoral enemy.
I daresay, pilot, that the Caldari standard for morality by which most of our citizens live leaves your own looking shriveled and embryonic by comparison.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.19 11:35:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Stitcher on 19/07/2008 11:39:43
Originally by: Julianus Soter
Yes, I am in this war to finish it. Tibus Heth and his affront to the freedom of all pilots and citizens of our universe will be taken down from power and justly tried for his crimes.
But the People of the State are where we must place our hopes for a lasting peace. Otro Gariushi's death must not have been in vain... his life must not have been lived in vain. Peaceful coexistence between our two civilizations and cultures is the only bulwark we have against total annihilation.
...
"We can be united in purpose...but we will never, ever be united in hate."
...
These things must have consequences. Calls for murder, and premeditation of that murder, are completely intolerable.
I...
Captain Soter, I feel I may owe you an apology for any accusations I may have leveled at you in recent weeks. It seems that I misjudged you. I fear your chest-beating and self-aggrandizing over your corporation's little prank in Jita managed to rub me the wrong way, and set me against you.
Assuming you're in earnest about quoting Mr. Gariushi and his message, and more importantly in upholding the intent behind them (I'll do you the credit of assuming that you are) then I can only say that you're a better man than I had you pegged as, and offer my immediate apology for any injustice I may have done you. In my family's tradition, I'm offering you a "Joitunmei" - a conditional retraction of any personal hostility I feel towards you and your corporation. My condition is that, in future when you gain victory over Caldari forces in this senseless war (as is inevitable), you try not to be quite as insufferably smug about it as you have been in the past.
Do you accept?
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.19 23:26:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Stitcher on 19/07/2008 23:30:58
This is just a thought here, but...
I know Strix is so very much opposed to the sort of things that Zagamesh here is spouting off, but can't go so far as to actually silence him without abandoning your principles. (welcome to one of the reasons the Caldari reject democracy, incidentally) However...
Is there anything to stop you from taking a vote on the issue of, say, kicking him out of the corporation? If he's at liberty to say what he damn well pleases, controversy or no, then you're at liberty to disassociate yourself from the bigoted madman, surely?
Besides, my interpretation of Democracy is "majority rule". If ninety percent of you are opposed to Zagamesh's brand of irrational hatred, then the remaining ten percent has to abide by the majority decision, as I understand it. If the ninety percent reckon that Zagamesh should shut that hole in his face before something bad comes out of it (too late) then, presumably, the galaxy becomes a slightly more pleasant place for not having to listen to him any longer.
Liberty's a bit of a raw deal if you can't tell the people who are making the rest of you look bad to shut the frag up.
Say hello to the biggest flaw in liberty - you're free to think whatever the hell you like. even if what you think is crayon-up-the-nose stupid.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.20 01:55:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Stitcher on 20/07/2008 01:59:55
Originally by: Marcel Bigeard
After all, rational men and women should be capable of collected analysis and make their own reasoned judgements on the merits of any statement or idea. To suggest otherwise is to suggest fear, fear not of a man, or a natural force, but fear of an idea.
And what of irrational men and women?
The principles that drive free speech and individual liberty are ultimately founded upon the conceit that all men are rational, intelligent and level-headed, yet this has been proven time and again throughout history not to be the case. All societies are riddled with the psychopathic, the sociopathic, the insane, the irritable, the impatient and the just plain idiotic.
The principles of freedom we're discussing here rely on all men having the capacity for rational thought. If that capacity is absent, then what? Allowing unbalanced views to be aired on principle may be noble, but is it practical? Past a certain point, surely the voice of the lunatic begins to exploit your generosity in allowing it to be heard? The idiot opinion gets out, and damages (however unfairly) the credibility of more worthy voices.
I'm more used to a society where competence must be proven, where the right to make your voice heard must be earned. Even Tibus Heth had to prove to the Caldari people that he deserved to have his voice heard, though in retrospect I find myself wishing that they'd been a little more reserved with their approval.
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Are we so small-minded, so weak in principles, that we cannot bear dissenting voices?
No principle is immune to being converted into a liability, and any principle that has been thus perverted is no longer worth standing by, at least until the perversion has been corrected. As such, the philosophy underpinning those principles must contain a contingency - when your principle begins to aid your enemy just as well as it aids yourself, then there must be a mechanism for escape, for a return to normalcy. There's always an exception, in other words. The exception should not be invoked lightly (or at all, if possible) but it must be there. In fact, it IS there, whether you have formally identified it or not. Sooner or later, a breaking point is inevitably reached, and it is rarely a conscious or codified breaking point.
The curious side-effect of being aware that the release is available (at least in my experience) is that it actually reinforces the determination with which principles are clung to. You know, at the end of the day, that if you really had to you COULD shut Zagamesh up... but the fact that the option is open to you makes you fight ever harder to avoid that end, out of a natural human desire to avoid the shame of defeat.
Weakness only lies in giving up the fight prematurely. There is no weakness in admitting defeat in a battle that cannot be won, however. If the voice of dissent DID need to be purged - if the rhetoric of your colleague threatened to too badly pollute by proxy your own public image and that of your corporation - then there would be nothing small-minded in doing what needed to be done.
Obviously though, the threshold of tolerance for deciding when that terminal step should be taken would have to be a matter for Strix and its pilots to decide. It may be (and I'm sure we both hope this) that you never reach that threshold, and that you'll be able to talk your colleague around to a more moderate point of view. Nevertheless, if you cannot, there inevitably comes a point where you must temporarily and paradoxically abandon your principles in order to uphold them.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.20 10:23:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Stitcher on 20/07/2008 10:23:42
OKay, now it's time to address Zagamesh himself.
Originally by: Zagamesh
If it is in reference to the tactic of planetary "glassing" then all that I have to say is this: If a lawful order was given by the government of the Federation to sanction such a tactic then I fail to see how it would be classified as murder as it would not be an illegal action to enforce.
It would, actually. The Yulai treaty again. Minor bombardment of strategic installations, yes, wholesale reduction of a planet to an uninhabitable ball-bearing, no.
Besides, I'm amazed at hearing any Gallente-aligned pilot state that they would willingly follow that order, despite the magnitude of atrocity it would represent. I thought an inability to say "no" to unjust orders was a failing of my own people...
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On that point, I fail to find the basis of the outrage on such a tactic. Full planetary destruction of key strategic planets within the State should remain as a viable alternative where planetary occupation would be unfeasible
Alternatively, you could just leave us the hell alone. I notice that one's not occurred to anyone yet...
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or if it is determined that the ability to hold the system the planet is located in is untentable such a tactic will deny the use of that planet's resources to the enemy.
"If we can't have it RIGHT NOW, then neither of us can have it at all, ever"? How childish. Not to mention that you'd be killing billions of innocents.
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I am certain those planets would be habitable again in possibly a century or two.
Cold comfort to the billions of men, women and children reduced to an interesting carbon stratum inside the smooth plain of volcanic glass, even were this true. Unfortunately, it is not: glassing a world would not only blast most of its atmosphere into space, it would also ignite the remaining oxygen content, reduce all of the fertile topsoil to lava (ensuring no future plant growth to provide breathable oxygen), and leave so much dust and water vapour in the atmosphere that the sun couldn't reach the surface for hundreds of years, and that's not counting the near-permanent volcanic and seismic orgy that would stem from the battering of the planet's tectonic plates. Oh, and let's not forget the ton or so per square kilometer of radioactive and toxic contaminants.
Glassing a world is only temporary in the same way that stars are only temporary. In my opinion, the only people who would seriously advocate it are those people who lack any realistic perspective of what it is like, or the terminally insane.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.20 11:32:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Gerrard DuNord
I have made my position clear - any supporter of the fascist State is an acceptable target for extermination. Any person not actively supporting the State is a non-combatant and therefore not to be targetted.
The situation is more complex than that, pilot. I'm not fighting to support the "fascist" State, as personified by Tibus Heth and his Provists. I'm fighting to defend what little is left of the traditional Caldari State - the one where the corporations represented the highest echelon of power, and there wasn't a single man at the top.
If you're looking to topple the Heth regime, then we're technically on the same side. And yet I'm forced to shoot at you and yours because otherwise YOU would shoot at me and mine.
Don't assume that every soldier in this war is an active supporter of the regime. Many of us are idealogicaly opposed to what the State has become and want to see it return to its former self, keeping what little good Tibus Heth has done us in the process. We would, however, prefer to do so without outside interference.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.20 13:22:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Gerrard DuNord
If you continue to stand between me and those targets, then you are part of the problem, not the solution.
That's a very simplistic view. Excessively so, in fact.
Understand that the Provists are founded upon the mandate of limiting (or indeed eradicating) Gallente influence over the State, real or imagined. Any efforts by Gallente pilots, or any pilot loyal to the Federation at all, will serve as ammunition for their propoganda war - fuel for the fire.
If you want the Provists to go away, the first step is to accept that you must let the Caldari deal with Caldari problems. So long as there are armed Federation gunmen trying to bring about an end to the present regime, then that regime's hold over the State will continue to be strengthened.
This is a problem that WILL be dealt with, in time, but it will not be dealt with by the Federation.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.20 15:30:00 -
[9]
Ah. Arrogance and impatience. How typically Gallente of you.
Heth would not have received even a tiny fraction of the support he did within the State if the average Caldari citizen had not, on some level, agreed with his rhetoric about the Federation's insistence on meddling in our affairs. Even I agree with him that the Federation is over-eager to spread your philosophy wherever it is not wanted, and right now you're perpetuating the stereotype. What I disagree with Heth on is that said interference was directly responsible for all our problems.
There's nothing discrete about the Federation. No restraint. You see an objective, or an opportunity to spread your ideals, and you move in a straight line, shouldering everything out of the way like a chuunor in the breeding season.
This is a problem that the Caldari WILL deal with. It will not happen today, or tomorrow, or next week. It will take a long time before many Caldari will even acknowledge that there is a problem. It could take years for the Provist problem to be removed but, ultimately, I guarantee that Heth WILL fall and that it will happen with none of the bloodshed and violence that would ensue if the Federation attempted the same task.
If you insist on coming right this instant to try and fix our problem for us, then you will just strengthen the dictator's hold by lending credence to his extremism. The most complete victory the Federation could hope for here is to prove him wrong and for once - just once - demonstrate that you ARE able to stay out of other people's business.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.20 17:19:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kora Bequin
Racist and opportunist, how Caldari of you.
Hah! Touche!
Nevertheless, my point here is that Heth is at least to some small degree a monster of the Federation's making. He's effectively a personification of all the hatred my people feel for yours, both deserved and otherwise. He's mostly our fault, I'm quite prepared to admit - we did all the hard work of backing his rise to power after all - but he's a product of his environment. His hatred, and the response it has engendered among the Caldari "vox populi", would not have formed without there being some kernel of truth for it to form around.
If Foiritain began a similar call, I'd be pressuring the Federation to impeach the man and replace him, actually. Unlike some of my countrymen (or indeed, some of yours) I have a lot of faith in the Federal government's abilities to limit the damage any one man can do. We too have our systems for dealing with troublemakers, even at the very top of our societies. If enough like-minded capsuleers threw enough money into purchasing a majority share in Kaalakiota, Ytiri and Caldari Constructions (vastly expensive, but not impossible), then we could have Tibus Heth back in an MTAC within a week, for example. Of course, the current majority shareholders probably aren't willing to sell (I imagine many of them are Provists), but that again is not an insurmountable obstacle.
Finally, I keep hearing people talk about "buffer zones" being established. What buffer zones? both our sides are conquering whole star systems here and converting them to the banners of our respective nations. That's hardly a "buffer" in my opinion, just a way of redrawing the map.
A buffer zone, to me, implies neutral territory - either a DMZ or a thin third-party interest separating the two borders. Federal attempts to claim systems in Black Rise can no more reasonably be called "attempts to build a buffer zone" than the Caldari occupation of Odamia.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.20 23:54:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Stitcher on 20/07/2008 23:53:52
Actually, I think the front lines have failed to move for more than a month because the vast bulk of the pilots on both sides of the line are massively incompetent, and the few skilled soldiers on either side lack the numbers to actually achieve anything.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
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