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Sleeping with the enemy, a 4 day long individual campaign

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Julianus Soter Gallente The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.19 04:55:00 - [31] Edited by: Julianus Soter on 19/07/2008 05:10:25 Mr. Damordred... you understand that this man... Zagamesh... does not speak for all of us. I am as disgusted by his commentary as with any Amarrian or Caldari ultra-nationalist calls for destruction. Yes, I am in this war to finish it. Tibus Heth and his affront to the freedom of all pilots and citizens of our universe will be taken down from power and justly tried for his crimes. But the People of the State are where we must place our hopes for a lasting peace. Otro Gariushi's death must not have been in vain... his life must not have been lived in vain. Peaceful coexistence between our two civilizations and cultures is the only bulwark we have against total annihilation. And Zagamesh, before you criticize me, or attack me ad hominem... know that my corporation has toiled and worked in this cause since the inception of this conflict. Know that we have done more to damage Heth's reputation than, quite frankly, your vitriol and blustering and genocidal threats ever can. Unless you plan on destroying several dozen billion ISK in Provist assets any time soon. "We can be united in purpose...but we will never, ever be united in hate." I only pray that we will not all be judged by your statements here, Zagamesh... that you don't jeopardize everything. I will no longer be coordinating with Strix corporate authorities. I will remove them from my moderated channels and they will continue to be banned until the present situation and attitude changes. These things must have consequences. Calls for murder, and premeditation of that murder, are completely intolerable. --- This post is not the official statement of my alliance or corporation.
Gervais Zhang Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.07.19 06:08:00 - [32] Irony: "Don't judge the Federation by the opinions of one citizen. Strix, we now hate you because, in spite of a long history of humanitarian aid and charity work, you have one member with extreme opinions." Incidentally, I think you better start vetting your own corporation, mate. Based on current trends amongst the Federation population, I expect a large number of every Federation corporation's membership, from capsuleers down to janitorial staff, are being particularly bloodyminded these days. Yay for overreaction! Strix is recruiting Federation patriots.
Shroomer Minmatar Calamitous Enterprise	Posted - 2008.07.19 09:56:00 - [33] Good work Elf old friend. Maybe I will have the chance to fight with you again soon.
Aria Jenneth Caldari Ghost Festival	Posted - 2008.07.19 10:30:00 - [34] Well, it's good to hear that someone's teaching those capsuleers who hunt conventional assets in expensively tricked-out battleships for a living to stay on their toes. Just please do keep your Demented in check. Talking about glassing planets is foolish bravado; doing it would be a much less forgivable stupidity. Ghost Festival is recruiting!
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.19 11:19:00 - [35] Originally by: Zagamesh A certain degree of barbarity is required in this war - to ensure the safety and survival of the Federation against an evil and immoral enemy. I daresay, pilot, that the Caldari standard for morality by which most of our citizens live leaves your own looking shriveled and embryonic by comparison. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.19 11:35:00 - [36] Edited by: Stitcher on 19/07/2008 11:39:43 Originally by: Julianus Soter Yes, I am in this war to finish it. Tibus Heth and his affront to the freedom of all pilots and citizens of our universe will be taken down from power and justly tried for his crimes. But the People of the State are where we must place our hopes for a lasting peace. Otro Gariushi's death must not have been in vain... his life must not have been lived in vain. Peaceful coexistence between our two civilizations and cultures is the only bulwark we have against total annihilation. ... "We can be united in purpose...but we will never, ever be united in hate." ... These things must have consequences. Calls for murder, and premeditation of that murder, are completely intolerable. I... Captain Soter, I feel I may owe you an apology for any accusations I may have leveled at you in recent weeks. It seems that I misjudged you. I fear your chest-beating and self-aggrandizing over your corporation's little prank in Jita managed to rub me the wrong way, and set me against you. Assuming you're in earnest about quoting Mr. Gariushi and his message, and more importantly in upholding the intent behind them (I'll do you the credit of assuming that you are) then I can only say that you're a better man than I had you pegged as, and offer my immediate apology for any injustice I may have done you. In my family's tradition, I'm offering you a "Joitunmei" - a conditional retraction of any personal hostility I feel towards you and your corporation. My condition is that, in future when you gain victory over Caldari forces in this senseless war (as is inevitable), you try not to be quite as insufferably smug about it as you have been in the past. Do you accept? - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Julianus Soter Gallente The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.19 13:22:00 - [37] Of course, Verin. But you must know that my beliefs have always been the same... I have no hatred of the Caldari, rather, I respect the strength of their convictions and values. The purpose of my earlier antagonism was to smudge the image of Tibus Heth enshrouded in glory at Arcurio. I agree to your conditions. Mssr. Zhang. Allowing that member to continue to ramble on unremittedly about the wholesale slaughter of billions of individuals does not shine kindly upon the reputation of our cause. Yes, our people are angry, as I am, and they thirst for justice, but is our duty as capsuleers to lead them and direct their anger towards the real nemesis, Heth. And we can only lead by example. If we do not have the courage to do so, then we risk an endless war and untold bloodshed on both sides. --- This post is not the official statement of my alliance or corporation.
Gervais Zhang Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.07.19 16:20:00 - [38] "Mssr. Zhang. Allowing that member to continue to ramble on unremittedly about the wholesale slaughter of billions of individuals does not shine kindly upon the reputation of our cause. Yes, our people are angry, as I am, and they thirst for justice, but is our duty as capsuleers to lead them and direct their anger towards the real nemesis, Heth. And we can only lead by example. If we do not have the courage to do so, then we risk an endless war and untold bloodshed on both sides. " Strix has been leading by example since before you graduated the Academy mate. As for your suggestion that we deny our members the right to express themselves as individual citizens of the Federation, I wonder what country you are actually from; at the moment, you're not sounding like a Gallentean. Or do you propose that we cease following the liberal traditions of free speech and expression on which our nation was founded? Strix is recruiting Federation patriots.
Remy Valios Gallente Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.07.19 17:03:00 - [39] As with such times, there will always be extremists on every side of the conflict- it is an inevitable circumstance that arises and must simply be faced for what it is, spoken against, and moved past. I'd never wish to see any world glassed, so much more for the fact that I am from the dirtside, and still hold strong ties to my planet-side origins. I... it's hard to know where to start. I had thought that this war was thickening my skin and hardening my heart to the atrocities of war- but this sheer, genocidal, irrational hatred has gotten through. Before this war began, before I joined Strix, I took a time to head out from the Federation, and travel in my unarmed frigate (having removed the turrets, not that they'd have done much anyways), into the State. There, I reached out to the corporations both grand and small, in seek of aid for humanitarian efforts- but more, to learn what it means to be Caldari. To serve the corporation, to... well, there's so much more to it than mere words can describe. I did this, and perhaps some of you who spoke with me, or spoke with that Remy from that time remember, because understanding was key to remembering that the enemy is human, and has human wishes as much as you or I, and that many are just good people doing what good people do. I warned that if we didn't understand our foe, we would dehumanize them, and we could do inhuman things to them, when we did. My greatest fear, it was- and having failed in trying to show others what it meant to be Caldari, someone with such a hateful, extremist, zealous belief can hold such beliefs. That, or despite it, he still does, which would be worse. I pray for and wish for, a return to the way things were- I fight, along with the rest of the Federation Defense Union, for my home, and my beliefs, but I would much rather the guns be put down and we all returned to being rational people. Remy Valios, Strix _______________________________________________ What a terrible, necessary, dissapointing pursuit, peace is.
Julianus Soter Gallente The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.19 17:50:00 - [40] Monsieur Zhang. I do not want to go down this road. You're more than this... more than personal attacks against my patriotism, my commitment to the beliefs that all Gallente know to be sacred. But is it so hard to bring yourself to say that killing billions of innocent civilians stuck on planets is wrong ? If it is... then I fear that the whole of your cause is lost. When a person that was previously a diplomatic representative of your corporation makes such statements, people tend to take them seriously. Beyond that, these views are entirely incompatible and adverse to the doctrines of human self-determination and individual liberty that you claim to protect. --- This post is not the official statement of my alliance or corporation.

Trent Valtine Gallente Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.07.19 18:42:00 - [41] Originally by: Julianus Soter But is it so hard to bring yourself to say that killing billions of innocent civilians stuck on planets is wrong ? If it is... then I fear that the whole of your cause is lost. Captain Soter, I respectfully suggest that you read what Gervais has already said before flying off the handle and declaring Strix banned from your channels and operations. Quote: In case there is any question, official Strix corporate policy remains unchanged. In this time of crisis, we stand behind President Foiritan, the Senate, and Navy. We continue to support our members' rights to express themselves, so long as they do not support illegal activities within Federation territory or any surrender of Federation sovereignty. As for strategy, we will sustain our operations beside the Federation Navy, Federal Intelligence Office, and Federal Defence Union in accordance with national civil and military leadership within the bounds of common sense. I can assure the community at-large that Strix will not pursue the "glassing" of any planet, Caldari or otherwise. Anyone who has actually bothered to monitor Strix's actions since its inception should have no problem accepting that. As for muzzling our members' ability to express themselves, I'd rather see Gallente Prime burn. What the **** are we fighting for if not for freedom tempered by the rule of law? Was that not an official statement from Strix leadership that the corporation as a whole does not support the wholesale wholesale slaughter of billions of innocent civilians through planetary bombardment? Or through any other method? Hell, Jules, just look at mine and Vieve's comments on this thread and see that Zag's statements aren't supported by us. However, to bar him from making those comments would be to restrict the freedoms granted to him as a citizen of the Federation, and that is not the way we operate in Strix. Freedom of speech is central to democracy. How can we muzzle those with extreme positions and still pretend that we support individual liberty? To do so would be hypocracy. Zagamesh, just like me and you, speaks only for himself here. Even when I speak of the Federation as a whole, I'm still only speaking my views, my interpretation. If Zag can't speak his mind, why can we? Several Strix members have already commented in disagreement with Zagamesh, even before you decided to bar our corporation from coordinated war efforts. Does that not show quite obviously that he doesn't speak for anyone but himself? What purpose, then, does all this serve? Why not just bar him from all your channels and operations? To cut off Strix, an organization with a long history of level-headed service to the Federation and humanitarian pursuits, just for the extreme views of one of its members makes no sense at all.
Zagamesh Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.07.19 22:52:00 - [42] Edited by: Zagamesh on 19/07/2008 22:55:00 Originally by: Julianus Soter But the People of the State are where we must place our hopes for a lasting peace. Otro Gariushi's death must not have been in vain... his life must not have been lived in vain. You seem to have alot of respect and admiration for a man whose corporation he ran profited greatly from the sale of transcranial microcontrollers to the Khanid Kingdom. Devices which were promptly used on the enslaved peoples of that nation. Devices which removed all semblance of individual thought, will or action on those that were subjected to such an abhorrent implement. Perhaps you also condone contributing to the enslavement and oppression of entire peoples in order to satisfy your greed just like Otro Gariushi? It wouldn't surprise me, you Caldari-loving dog. Fortunate indeed that the hero Alexander Noir martyred himself to end the existence of such a disgusting man at Malkalen. Originally by: Julianus Soter Peaceful coexistence between our two civilizations and cultures is the only bulwark we have against total annihilation. We gave them peace once. We extendended our hands in friendship towards them and all we recieved in turn was to be bitten again by war and aggression on the part of the Caldari. The only way the Federation shall know peace is in the total annihilation of the Caldari State. Do you wish for peace Captain Solter, or to simply repeat the mistakes of the past so that our descendents will have to continue to face the threat of Caldari aggression? Originally by: Julianus Soter Calls for murder, and premeditation of that murder, are completely intolerable. I agree, although if this is in reference to myself it is erroneous. I have never participated in a killing that was unlawful either by those of CONCORD or that of the Federation and never will. If it is in reference to the tactic of planetary "glassing" then all that I have to say is this: If a lawful order was given by the government of the Federation to sanction such a tactic then I fail to see how it would be classified as murder as it would not be an illegal action to enforce. On that point, I fail to find the basis of the outrage on such a tactic. Full planetary destruction of key strategic planets within the State should remain as a viable alternative where planetary occupation would be unfeasible; or if it is determined that the ability to hold the system the planet is located in is untentable such a tactic will deny the use of that planet's resources to the enemy. Besides, if enough damage is inflicted it will bring a speedy resolution to this war as a State in diaspora presents little credible threat to the safety of the Federation. Although, personally I would see it as a great tragedy to see such destruction in the Irridente of Lonetrek, The Forge, The Citadel, and Black Rise I am certain those planets would be habitable again in possibly a century or two. At the end of the day Captain Solter, I should remind you in case you have forgotten or indeed if you have ever even known that in the Federation there is a difference between what a man thinks and what a man does. I have the unalienable right to think and believe what I damn well please, just as any other citizen of the Federation has. Do you presume now that you wish Strix to censor me for simply excercising my right to state those thoughts and beliefs simply because they do not fall in line with your own? Do you, like your hero Otro Gariushi want to stick a transcranial microcontroller in my head so that I think and believe as you do in line with your "cause"? If so, I will call you for what you are: A Fascist.
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.19 23:26:00 - [43] Edited by: Stitcher on 19/07/2008 23:30:58 This is just a thought here, but... I know Strix is so very much opposed to the sort of things that Zagamesh here is spouting off, but can't go so far as to actually silence him without abandoning your principles. (welcome to one of the reasons the Caldari reject democracy, incidentally) However... Is there anything to stop you from taking a vote on the issue of, say, kicking him out of the corporation? If he's at liberty to say what he damn well pleases, controversy or no, then you're at liberty to disassociate yourself from the bigoted madman, surely? Besides, my interpretation of Democracy is "majority rule". If ninety percent of you are opposed to Zagamesh's brand of irrational hatred, then the remaining ten percent has to abide by the majority decision, as I understand it. If the ninety percent reckon that Zagamesh should shut that hole in his face before something bad comes out of it (too late) then, presumably, the galaxy becomes a slightly more pleasant place for not having to listen to him any longer. Liberty's a bit of a raw deal if you can't tell the people who are making the rest of you look bad to shut the frag up. Say hello to the biggest flaw in liberty - you're free to think whatever the hell you like. even if what you think is crayon-up-the-nose stupid. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Marcel Bigeard Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.07.20 01:18:00 - [44] Captain Sticher, There is no doubt that democracy is an imperfect system. In all of human history, we have never created a collection of guiding political principles that is anything but rife with flaws, easily exploitable should the character of those found executing the system be found wanting. You are correct in that we _could_ bar anyone from our ranks who disagreed with the majority. This, however, is no less dangerous than to operate according to the whims of but one man or woman, or a few men or women. In truth, the idea that any organisation should restrict free speech simply because it is not in accord with the thoughts of others is preposterous, especially if that organisation purports to support a system of liberty and freedom of expression. After all, rational men and women should be capable of collected analysis and make their own reasoned judgements on the merits of any statement or idea. To suggest otherwise is to suggest fear, fear not of a man, or a natural force, but fear of an idea. Are we so small-minded, so weak in principles, that we cannot bear dissenting voices? When a man commits evil, or prepares to commit evil, good men and women must take action. When a man simply says evil, it is our duty to show him the error of his ways through rational discourse. Only in this manner may we turn him to good. "Like other tyrannies, the tyranny of the majority was at first, and is still vulgarly, held in dread, chiefly as operating through the acts of the public authorities. But reflecting persons perceived that when society is itself the tyrant ù society collectively over the separate individuals who compose it ù its means of tyrannizing are not restricted to the acts which it may do by the hands of its political functionaries. Society can and does execute its own mandates; and if it issues wrong mandates instead of right, or any mandates at all in things with which it ought not to meddle, it practices a social tyranny more formidable than many kinds of political oppression, since, though not usually upheld by such extreme penalties, it leaves fewer means of escape, penetrating much more deeply into the details of life, and enslaving the soul itself. Protection, therefore, against the tyranny of the magistrate is not enough; there needs protection also against the tyranny of the prevailing opinion and feeling, against the tendency of society to impose, by other means than civil penalties, its own ideas and practices as rules of conduct on those who dissent from them; to fetter the development and, if possible, prevent the formation of any individuality not in harmony with its ways, and compel all characters to fashion themselves upon the model of its own. There is a limit to the legitimate interference of collective opinion with individual independence; and to find that limit, and maintain it against encroachment, is as indispensable to a good condition of human affairs as protection against political despotism." ((From John Stuart Mill's ON LIBERTY, which, we hope, has an equivalent in the EVE Universe.)) "Si vous voulez la paix, prTparez vous a la guerre."
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.20 01:55:00 - [45] Edited by: Stitcher on 20/07/2008 01:59:55 Originally by: Marcel Bigeard After all, rational men and women should be capable of collected analysis and make their own reasoned judgements on the merits of any statement or idea. To suggest otherwise is to suggest fear, fear not of a man, or a natural force, but fear of an idea. And what of irrational men and women? The principles that drive free speech and individual liberty are ultimately founded upon the conceit that all men are rational, intelligent and level-headed, yet this has been proven time and again throughout history not to be the case. All societies are riddled with the psychopathic, the sociopathic, the insane, the irritable, the impatient and the just plain idiotic. The principles of freedom we're discussing here rely on all men having the capacity for rational thought. If that capacity is absent, then what? Allowing unbalanced views to be aired on principle may be noble, but is it practical? Past a certain point, surely the voice of the lunatic begins to exploit your generosity in allowing it to be heard? The idiot opinion gets out, and damages (however unfairly) the credibility of more worthy voices. I'm more used to a society where competence must be proven, where the right to make your voice heard must be earned. Even Tibus Heth had to prove to the Caldari people that he deserved to have his voice heard, though in retrospect I find myself wishing that they'd been a little more reserved with their approval. Quote: Are we so small-minded, so weak in principles, that we cannot bear dissenting voices? No principle is immune to being converted into a liability, and any principle that has been thus perverted is no longer worth standing by, at least until the perversion has been corrected. As such, the philosophy underpinning those principles must contain a contingency - when your principle begins to aid your enemy just as well as it aids yourself, then there must be a mechanism for escape, for a return to normalcy. There's always an exception, in other words. The exception should not be invoked lightly (or at all, if possible) but it must be there. In fact, it IS there, whether you have formally identified it or not. Sooner or later, a breaking point is inevitably reached, and it is rarely a conscious or codified breaking point. The curious side-effect of being aware that the release is available (at least in my experience) is that it actually reinforces the determination with which principles are clung to. You know, at the end of the day, that if you really had to you COULD shut Zagamesh up... but the fact that the option is open to you makes you fight ever harder to avoid that end, out of a natural human desire to avoid the shame of defeat. Weakness only lies in giving up the fight prematurely. There is no weakness in admitting defeat in a battle that cannot be won, however. If the voice of dissent DID need to be purged - if the rhetoric of your colleague threatened to too badly pollute by proxy your own public image and that of your corporation - then there would be nothing small-minded in doing what needed to be done. Obviously though, the threshold of tolerance for deciding when that terminal step should be taken would have to be a matter for Strix and its pilots to decide. It may be (and I'm sure we both hope this) that you never reach that threshold, and that you'll be able to talk your colleague around to a more moderate point of view. Nevertheless, if you cannot, there inevitably comes a point where you must temporarily and paradoxically abandon your principles in order to uphold them. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Julianus Soter Gallente The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.20 03:49:00 - [46] A liberty in our system of government, any liberty, only continues so far as it doesn't infringe upon the liberty of others. For example, our freedom of speech only goes so far as so it doesn't directly damage others, or provoke such damages. Is it right for citizens to provoke violent riots? To shout "Fire!" in a public holotheatre and laugh at the bloody stampede? No, it is not... and it cannot be put under the sacred protections of Free Speech. And so it is here, that a man attempts to argue for the destruction of an ethnic group of our race, man, woman, and child. Is it not a sacred principle of the Gallente that every human being has a right to live and decide their own path for themselves? Is that not our rationale behind our position on the slavery issue in the Empire? Then how can you not say that this man's motivations and genocidal tendencies stand as a direct threat to that sacred right? When a madman is on the loose, publicly stating that he desires to kill billions of individuals, am I to arm him with a Duvolle D40 and give him directions to the local transportation hub? No. I will not share intelligence with him or any other from Strix that still cohorts with him. --- This post is not the official statement of my alliance or corporation.
Hero Crane Bilge Rats of Tortuga	Posted - 2008.07.20 05:34:00 - [47] Originally by: Julianus Soter ::snip:: When a madman is on the loose, publicly stating that he desires to kill billions of individuals, am I to arm him with a Duvolle D40 and give him directions to the local transportation hub?... No...but as a champion of the Federation's belief in liberty you are to let him speak, as long as it causes no *DIRECT* harm to befall another. And if the 'madman' so chooses to arm himself in an attempt to carry out the atrocities of which he speaks, you are to put him DOWN...like the ravenous, mindless slaver he has become. WHO'S...YOUR...HERO!!!
Vieve Tisserand Gallente Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.07.20 08:17:00 - [48] I previously stated relief that I was not a diplomatic officer. Now, I do experience regret that I achieved some badly worded middle ground between rage and restraint. It may have been for the best if I had initially said that the reasons I wanted to remove myself from corporate military operations had nothing to do with being revulsed by Strix as a whole, but solely the desire to do my best to protect those who serve with me. To be blunt, it would likely not go well if Captain Zagamesh and I were fleeted together. Our grave philosophical differences might inspire me to act in an inappropriate manner, one that would certainly at the least lead to undue loss of life, even if it was most likely only my own. I do not trust that I could exercise self-control. Those who know me ... well. Jules, you yourself should be well aware of how I openly advocated Caldari and Amarr paramilitary groups' neutralizing pilots who believed the most appropriate reaction to the tragedy at Malkalen was to attack the Caldari Navy or to prey upon those ships involved in rescue operations. That a beyond significant number of those pilots were Federation ones did not even enter into my considerations, save in the moment I may have spared to call them idiots. Granted, being involved in the Federal Defence Union has seen me fly in fleets alongside captains who were at war with Strix, many of whom may have very well harboured genocidal beliefs, but they were not ... family. I did not know them. They did not act in an inappropriate manner during our time working together, and we were able to achieve our common goals without incident beyond those experienced in the normal course of anti-hostile activities. I did not know Captain Zagamesh very well, beyond that he was part of Strix before I was -- indeed, there at its beginning. I believe I now know of him more than I wish to. I do trust that Strix's leadership will ensure that he continues to uphold its core humanitarian values, all of which are rather at odds with any agenda that calls for the extermination of a populace. I also applaud their continued diligence in protecting and promoting the rights afforded every citizen of the Federation. But while doing so, I also acknowledge that I am not as noble a creature as I should be. I do not trust myself not to want to shut him the hell up.
Gervais Zhang Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.07.20 10:15:00 - [49] "A liberty in our system of government, any liberty, only continues so far as it doesn't infringe upon the liberty of others. For example, our freedom of speech only goes so far as so it doesn't directly damage others, or provoke such damages. Is it right for citizens to provoke violent riots? To shout "Fire!" in a public holotheatre and laugh at the bloody stampede? No, it is not... and it cannot be put under the sacred protections of Free Speech. And so it is here, that a man attempts to argue for the destruction of an ethnic group of our race, man, woman, and child. Is it not a sacred principle of the Gallente that every human being has a right to live and decide their own path for themselves? Is that not our rationale behind our position on the slavery issue in the Empire? Then how can you not say that this man's motivations and genocidal tendencies stand as a direct threat to that sacred right? When a madman is on the loose, publicly stating that he desires to kill billions of individuals, am I to arm him with a Duvolle D40 and give him directions to the local transportation hub? No. I will not share intelligence with him or any other from Strix that still cohorts with him." Presumably, if you're familiar with the old "fire" and "fighting words" arguments, you're also familiar with the clarification that such words much cause an _immediate_ breach of peace. Simply promoting violence, or genocide, or anything else illegal is not grounds to suspend freedom of speech. But, I assume you knew that and just wanted to elicit the argument. I mean, I'm assuming that because you're obviously really smart and are familiar with jurisprudence and tradition. You're not REALLY going to argue against the bedrock principles of our rights and liberties as Federation citizens, are you? Strix is recruiting Federation patriots.
Gervais Zhang Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.07.20 10:23:00 - [50] If it's any consolation, Vieve, I've been trying to convince Zagamesh and Gerrard that their views aren't consistent with Gallentean tradition since I met them. No luck so far. I mean, what do you expect from anyone that supported Senator Blaque in the last election? Strix is recruiting Federation patriots.

Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.20 10:23:00 - [51] Edited by: Stitcher on 20/07/2008 10:23:42 OKay, now it's time to address Zagamesh himself. Originally by: Zagamesh If it is in reference to the tactic of planetary "glassing" then all that I have to say is this: If a lawful order was given by the government of the Federation to sanction such a tactic then I fail to see how it would be classified as murder as it would not be an illegal action to enforce. It would, actually. The Yulai treaty again. Minor bombardment of strategic installations, yes, wholesale reduction of a planet to an uninhabitable ball-bearing, no. Besides, I'm amazed at hearing any Gallente-aligned pilot state that they would willingly follow that order, despite the magnitude of atrocity it would represent. I thought an inability to say "no" to unjust orders was a failing of my own people... Quote: On that point, I fail to find the basis of the outrage on such a tactic. Full planetary destruction of key strategic planets within the State should remain as a viable alternative where planetary occupation would be unfeasible Alternatively, you could just leave us the hell alone. I notice that one's not occurred to anyone yet... Quote: or if it is determined that the ability to hold the system the planet is located in is untentable such a tactic will deny the use of that planet's resources to the enemy. "If we can't have it RIGHT NOW, then neither of us can have it at all, ever"? How childish. Not to mention that you'd be killing billions of innocents. Quote: I am certain those planets would be habitable again in possibly a century or two. Cold comfort to the billions of men, women and children reduced to an interesting carbon stratum inside the smooth plain of volcanic glass, even were this true. Unfortunately, it is not: glassing a world would not only blast most of its atmosphere into space, it would also ignite the remaining oxygen content, reduce all of the fertile topsoil to lava (ensuring no future plant growth to provide breathable oxygen), and leave so much dust and water vapour in the atmosphere that the sun couldn't reach the surface for hundreds of years, and that's not counting the near-permanent volcanic and seismic orgy that would stem from the battering of the planet's tectonic plates. Oh, and let's not forget the ton or so per square kilometer of radioactive and toxic contaminants. Glassing a world is only temporary in the same way that stars are only temporary. In my opinion, the only people who would seriously advocate it are those people who lack any realistic perspective of what it is like, or the terminally insane. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Zagamesh Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.07.20 11:05:00 - [52] Originally by: Stitcher It would, actually. The Yulai treaty again. If this war heats up further than the Yulai treaty and the CONCORD Assembly will exist only in the history books. Good riddance I say, CONCORD is nothing more than an obsolete institution that interferes in the foreign policy of the Federation. Originally by: Stitcher Besides, I'm amazed at hearing any Gallente-aligned pilot state that they would willingly follow that order, despite the magnitude of atrocity it would represent. I thought an inability to say "no" to unjust orders was a failing of my own people... An unlawful order would be one that is contrary to the Rules of Engagement of a military organization acting on the behalf of its state. If the lawful government of a state orders that a planet must be destroyed then it is not unlawful for the military of that state to carry out that order. Originally by: Stitcher Alternatively, you could just leave us the hell alone. I notice that one's not occurred to anyone yet... Alternatively, the State could surrender, withdraw their troops from Luminaire, demobilize thier military, pay reparations to injured parties and accept Federal peacekeepers on all planets of the State. Such an action, I assure you, will prevent any further bloodshed. Alternatively, everyone in your State can go take a Promethium bath and go die in a fire. Originally by: Stitcher Not to mention that you'd be killing billions of innocents. No such thing exists right now as an innocent citizen of the State.
Gerrard DuNord Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.07.20 11:14:00 - [53] Originally by: Gervais Zhang If it's any consolation, Vieve, I've been trying to convince Zagamesh and Gerrard that their views aren't consistent with Gallentean tradition since I met them. No luck so far. I mean, what do you expect from anyone that supported Senator Blaque in the last election? Just for the record, I do not wish to be associated with Zagamesh's viewpoint on this topic. I have made my position clear - any supporter of the fascist State is an acceptable target for extermination. Any person not actively supporting the State is a non-combatant and therefore not to be targetted. I do not view the Caldari people and the State as one and the same, and I certainly do not support the use of weapons of mass destruction that target the guilty and innocent alike.
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.20 11:32:00 - [54] Originally by: Gerrard DuNord I have made my position clear - any supporter of the fascist State is an acceptable target for extermination. Any person not actively supporting the State is a non-combatant and therefore not to be targetted. The situation is more complex than that, pilot. I'm not fighting to support the "fascist" State, as personified by Tibus Heth and his Provists. I'm fighting to defend what little is left of the traditional Caldari State - the one where the corporations represented the highest echelon of power, and there wasn't a single man at the top. If you're looking to topple the Heth regime, then we're technically on the same side. And yet I'm forced to shoot at you and yours because otherwise YOU would shoot at me and mine. Don't assume that every soldier in this war is an active supporter of the regime. Many of us are idealogicaly opposed to what the State has become and want to see it return to its former self, keeping what little good Tibus Heth has done us in the process. We would, however, prefer to do so without outside interference. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Gerrard DuNord Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.07.20 11:47:00 - [55] Originally by: Stitcher Originally by: Gerrard DuNord I have made my position clear - any supporter of the fascist State is an acceptable target for extermination. Any person not actively supporting the State is a non-combatant and therefore not to be targetted. The situation is more complex than that, pilot. I'm not fighting to support the "fascist" State, as personified by Tibus Heth and his Provists. I'm fighting to defend what little is left of the traditional Caldari State - the one where the corporations represented the highest echelon of power, and there wasn't a single man at the top. If you're looking to topple the Heth regime, then we're technically on the same side. And yet I'm forced to shoot at you and yours because otherwise YOU would shoot at me and mine. Don't assume that every soldier in this war is an active supporter of the regime. Many of us are idealogicaly opposed to what the State has become and want to see it return to its former self, keeping what little good Tibus Heth has done us in the process. We would, however, prefer to do so without outside interference. If you are attempitng to return the State to it's former self then your actions as a member of the State Protectorate are counterproductive. The one fortunate aspect of Heth's rise to power is that all the fascist rats who have long been hidden within the State have crawled out to the top, making targetting them far easier. If you continue to stand between me and those targets, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. Just to reinforce a very important point. I have absolutely no interest in seeing Federation expansionism into areas where the indigenous population do not desire it. Once the Caldari people have been freed of Heth's schackles, they themselves can decide if they want the corporations back or a new future along a different path.
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.20 13:22:00 - [56] Originally by: Gerrard DuNord If you continue to stand between me and those targets, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. That's a very simplistic view. Excessively so, in fact. Understand that the Provists are founded upon the mandate of limiting (or indeed eradicating) Gallente influence over the State, real or imagined. Any efforts by Gallente pilots, or any pilot loyal to the Federation at all, will serve as ammunition for their propoganda war - fuel for the fire. If you want the Provists to go away, the first step is to accept that you must let the Caldari deal with Caldari problems. So long as there are armed Federation gunmen trying to bring about an end to the present regime, then that regime's hold over the State will continue to be strengthened. This is a problem that WILL be dealt with, in time, but it will not be dealt with by the Federation. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Remy Valios Gallente Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.07.20 14:29:00 - [57] Stitcher- I would first like to say that, assuredly, I have a respect for you and yours. Your points, even when they are against my own, presented clearly and reasonably. Your fellow pilots- in fact I only had occasion to meet one in combat, and he thoroughly had his way with my ship, was still respectful and, I must say, entirely professional about the entire affair. I agree that the State's problems aren't something that the Federation can mend- especially at the point of a railgun. I agree that what's faced is something of- lets call it a Caldari criss of spirit, if you wish to, for simplicity. However... There are Caldari Provists in the Protectorate. There are Caldari expansionists in the Protectorate. As we speak, a Federation system is occupied by Protectorate forces. While the Caldari issues must be resolved by the Caldari internally, coming to terms with the Provists, or the Provists coming to terms with the rest of the State, the Federation cannot simply stand by and wait. We must fight the war to the hilt, go all out, and match aggression for aggression. So long as there are Provists, and opportunists, I cannot but help do my duty (and I use the word quite literally, what I do now is a duty to the Federation in exchange for the myriad freedoms I have been granted) in it's interest. I've always spoken of the necessity of an enhanced buffer zone for the Federation, since this war began- that hasn't changed. It won't make me popular, and it won't be welcome in the State- but it's what's necessary so long as the Provists and opportunists are free to act. I do hope the Caldari crisis of spirit, or upheaval, or whatever one might call it, is resolved soon- for everone's sakes. Remy Valios, Strix _______________________________________________ What a terrible, necessary, dissapointing pursuit, peace is.
Gerrard DuNord Strix Armaments and Defence	Posted - 2008.07.20 14:45:00 - [58] Originally by: Stitcher Originally by: Gerrard DuNord If you continue to stand between me and those targets, then you are part of the problem, not the solution. That's a very simplistic view. Excessively so, in fact. Understand that the Provists are founded upon the mandate of limiting (or indeed eradicating) Gallente influence over the State, real or imagined. Any efforts by Gallente pilots, or any pilot loyal to the Federation at all, will serve as ammunition for their propoganda war - fuel for the fire. If you want the Provists to go away, the first step is to accept that you must let the Caldari deal with Caldari problems. So long as there are armed Federation gunmen trying to bring about an end to the present regime, then that regime's hold over the State will continue to be strengthened. This is a problem that WILL be dealt with, in time, but it will not be dealt with by the Federation. I'm undecided if your insistance that this problem is best solved internally by Caldari corporations and individuals such as yourself is a devious attempt to undermine opposition to Heth, or a genuine, if misguided, point of view. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I'll assume the latter. Your 'traditional' corporations created the mire that allowed Heth to brew and be born. They also singularly failed to stop his rise. Now, most of them line up behind him and shoot his enemies for him. And you expect me to believe that you are capable of stopping Heth without Federation guns? The only thing strong enough to break Heth to the point that the Caldari people will be strong enough to finish the job is the Federation fleet. 'It's a complicated situation' has been the cry of so-called intellectuals preventing direct action throughout history, and the deaths that resulted from inaction are on their hands. Posture, debate and wring your hands all you like Captain whilst the rest of us line up with the fleet and break the fascists once and for all.
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.20 15:30:00 - [59] Ah. Arrogance and impatience. How typically Gallente of you. Heth would not have received even a tiny fraction of the support he did within the State if the average Caldari citizen had not, on some level, agreed with his rhetoric about the Federation's insistence on meddling in our affairs. Even I agree with him that the Federation is over-eager to spread your philosophy wherever it is not wanted, and right now you're perpetuating the stereotype. What I disagree with Heth on is that said interference was directly responsible for all our problems. There's nothing discrete about the Federation. No restraint. You see an objective, or an opportunity to spread your ideals, and you move in a straight line, shouldering everything out of the way like a chuunor in the breeding season. This is a problem that the Caldari WILL deal with. It will not happen today, or tomorrow, or next week. It will take a long time before many Caldari will even acknowledge that there is a problem. It could take years for the Provist problem to be removed but, ultimately, I guarantee that Heth WILL fall and that it will happen with none of the bloodshed and violence that would ensue if the Federation attempted the same task. If you insist on coming right this instant to try and fix our problem for us, then you will just strengthen the dictator's hold by lending credence to his extremism. The most complete victory the Federation could hope for here is to prove him wrong and for once - just once - demonstrate that you ARE able to stay out of other people's business. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Dex Nederland Caldari Lai Dai Infinity Systems	Posted - 2008.07.20 15:51:00 - [60] M. DuNord, The Caldari people aren't going to be the ones opposing Tibus Heth any time soon. They helped to put him in power, he is one of their own, and they don't like the Federation. It is going to take more than a Federation fleet to remove Heth from power and a Federation fleet is only going to strength his position. Are you prepared to make him a martyr upon the altar of freedom? Believe it or not, we both are fighting for freedom; they may be different freedoms. If any foreign power attempts to remove Tibus Heth, he will become a symbol for his supporters to rally around, even dead. The Federation is equally as expansionist as the State. Terraforming worlds; establishing new colonies, yet you can not even maintain the security of the homeworld of one of your major minorities. You think you can occupy 4 regions with trillions of people in it without letting them laps into lawlessness? The State isn't going away; you may remove its sovereign space, but it isn't going away. It is everywhere already with assets scattered throughout the cluster. Be prepared to destroy your own economy and your own way of life to destroy the corporations that make up the State. Founder Heiian Society

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