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Kora Bequin
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.07.20 16:06:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Kora Bequin on 20/07/2008 16:07:51
Edited by: Kora Bequin on 20/07/2008 16:06:38
 Originally by: Stitcher
Ah. Arrogance and impatience. How typically Gallente of you.
Racist and opportunist, how Caldari of you. I am only responding in kind due to your arrogance in assuming you know what's right for the Federation, Mr. Stitcher, as I worked within Caldari space for many years as know very much what the State is like.
Originally by: Stitcher
Heth would not have received even a tiny fraction of the support he did within the State if the average Caldari citizen had not, on some level, agreed with his rhetoric about the Federation's insistence on meddling in our affairs. Even I agree with him that the Federation is over-eager to spread your philosophy wherever it is not wanted, and right now you're perpetuating the stereotype. What I disagree with Heth on is that said interference was directly responsible for all our problems.
I mostly agree with you there. Our government does not understand that others may not wish to live our way. If the Caldari are not a threat, we should leave them alone. However, right now, the Caldari government IS a threat and must be treated as such.
Originally by: Stitcher
There's nothing discrete about the Federation. No restraint. You see an objective, or an opportunity to spread your ideals, and you move in a straight line, shouldering everything out of the way like a chuunor in the breeding season.
It could be said that you Caldari are far more ruthless when pursuing profit opportunities.
Originally by: Stitcher
This is a problem that the Caldari WILL deal with. It will not happen today, or tomorrow, or next week. It will take a long time before many Caldari will even acknowledge that there is a problem. It could take years for the Provist problem to be removed but, ultimately, I guarantee that Heth WILL fall and that it will happen with none of the bloodshed and violence that would ensue if the Federation attempted the same task.
I agree with you again. In the meantime, though, Strix must work to keep the Federation itself safe. We, except for a few exceptions, have no desire to destroy the entire Caldari State. We simply wish to push them back into their own territory so they'll stay out of what is currently ours. If that also includes creating a buffer zone between our empires, so be it.
Originally by: Stitcher
If you insist on coming right this instant to try and fix our problem for us, then you will just strengthen the dictator's hold by lending credence to his extremism. The most complete victory the Federation could hope for here is to prove him wrong and for once - just once - demonstrate that you ARE able to stay out of other people's business.
While the iron is still burning hot within the civilian populations and in many pilot's hearts due to an attack on our sovereignty by a man who wishes the Federation dead, the more rational of us are quite happy with letting the Caldari deal with Heth, assuming they are up to the task. Unfortunately, they don't seem to be at this point.
The longer Heth stays in power, the greater risk to the Federation. If our President announced that he wanted the State abolished and enslaved, I doubt your tune would be similar, Mr. Stitcher, for, though you claim otherwise, you are very much acting like Heth in the way you describe us.
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Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.20 17:19:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Kora Bequin
Racist and opportunist, how Caldari of you.
Hah! Touche!
Nevertheless, my point here is that Heth is at least to some small degree a monster of the Federation's making. He's effectively a personification of all the hatred my people feel for yours, both deserved and otherwise. He's mostly our fault, I'm quite prepared to admit - we did all the hard work of backing his rise to power after all - but he's a product of his environment. His hatred, and the response it has engendered among the Caldari "vox populi", would not have formed without there being some kernel of truth for it to form around.
If Foiritain began a similar call, I'd be pressuring the Federation to impeach the man and replace him, actually. Unlike some of my countrymen (or indeed, some of yours) I have a lot of faith in the Federal government's abilities to limit the damage any one man can do. We too have our systems for dealing with troublemakers, even at the very top of our societies. If enough like-minded capsuleers threw enough money into purchasing a majority share in Kaalakiota, Ytiri and Caldari Constructions (vastly expensive, but not impossible), then we could have Tibus Heth back in an MTAC within a week, for example. Of course, the current majority shareholders probably aren't willing to sell (I imagine many of them are Provists), but that again is not an insurmountable obstacle.
Finally, I keep hearing people talk about "buffer zones" being established. What buffer zones? both our sides are conquering whole star systems here and converting them to the banners of our respective nations. That's hardly a "buffer" in my opinion, just a way of redrawing the map.
A buffer zone, to me, implies neutral territory - either a DMZ or a thin third-party interest separating the two borders. Federal attempts to claim systems in Black Rise can no more reasonably be called "attempts to build a buffer zone" than the Caldari occupation of Odamia.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Trent Valtine
Gallente
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.07.20 17:32:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Stitcher
If you want the Provists to go away, the first step is to accept that you must let the Caldari deal with Caldari problems.
It seems that your view is becoming a bit simplistic as well, Captain Tarn-Hakatain. What was originally a Caldari problem has become quite a large problem for the Gallente, seeing as the new regime has started to take things that aren't theirs to take, people and planets and systems that are part of the Federation, and using excessive violence to do so.
You can argue all you want about whether or not the Caldari State, the institution, not the people, has a right to Caldari Prime. We've discussed it before, and I don't think we're going to reach anything near an agreement on that. However, it has also taken the Odamia system, and its grubble little hands have been continually reaching into the rest of Placid.
This is very much a Federation problem, and any argument to the contrary is utter nonsense.
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Kora Bequin
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.07.20 17:42:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Stitcher
A buffer zone, to me, implies neutral territory - either a DMZ or a thin third-party interest separating the two borders. Federal attempts to claim systems in Black Rise can no more reasonably be called "attempts to build a buffer zone" than the Caldari occupation of Odamia.
The Caldari militia stages most of their attacks on the Federation from within Black Rise. We choose to bring the fight to then.
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Remy Valios
Gallente
Strix Armaments and Defence
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Posted - 2008.07.20 20:46:00 -
[65]
Allow me perhaps, to say two words on this then-
Firstly, by that definition, buffer zone is most certainly the wrong choice. Allow me to say instead, that I believe the Federal Defense Union needs to march into the outlying regions of Black Rise and take systems to ensure they cannot be used as staging grounds for offensive actions against the Federation- and to change the nature of the war so as to dictate a defensiev that makes sense.
It would be ill advised for us, the attacked (I trust we don't have to argue as to who begun the war in earnest, whatever else we care to think about the Malkalen Tragedy), to simply accept that we're to be attacked and have to perpetually wage a defensive in our own systems. This, then, is what I mean- to move forward into outlying State systems and prevent incursions from there.
Though it's hardly my choice, I would, at war's end, not be adverse to the systems being returned- however, there's so much more to such things than one man's feelings that it's useless to discuss for any such discussion has little practical application. I'm still willing to though, feel free to reach me by FTL.
Secondly, I don't believe there is a right side to this war. I believe there is a necessary side to this war, in fact I believe both are necessary, but both because of internal forces, not each other.
The war hawks, the warmongers, and the opportunists, who set eyes and hands to grabbing, make this required. One might argue that the Federation had no need of the F.D.U. until war was thrust upon us by the Protectorate- I might even have been willing to accept this once: once, but no longer.
There are forces in the F.D.U. that are just as blood thirsty, opportunistic, and warmongering, as any of the most proven and loyal Provists. When war was forced upon us, the Protectorate was validated as a necessity against the inevitable response of greedy men and women with Gold almost literally dripping from their eyes, blinding them.
I don't believe myself to be one of those, so please, do not accuse me of seeking to take systems for the Federation so as to expand and force Federation ideals on others. I simply believe that while this war is waged, it must be fought earnestly and cannot, due necessity and duty, do other than drive towards such with my all.
Remy Valios, Strix
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What a terrible, necessary, dissapointing pursuit, peace is. |
Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2008.07.20 21:22:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Kora Bequin
Originally by: Stitcher
A buffer zone, to me, implies neutral territory - either a DMZ or a thin third-party interest separating the two borders. Federal attempts to claim systems in Black Rise can no more reasonably be called "attempts to build a buffer zone" than the Caldari occupation of Odamia.
The Caldari militia stages most of their attacks on the Federation from within Black Rise. We choose to bring the fight to then.
By the same token the Federal Defense Union stages attacks on the State out of Essence and Placid.
 Founder Heiian Society |
Ereka Nihil
Crux Offensive Systems
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Posted - 2008.07.20 22:50:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Dex Nederland
Originally by: Kora Bequin
The Caldari militia stages most of their attacks on the Federation from within Black Rise. We choose to bring the fight to then.
By the same token the Federal Defense Union stages attacks on the State out of Essence and Placid.
For crying out loud, this is like the third time in this thread that one side has claimed the other does something, and the other points the finger right back at them.
Its like watching creche infants fight - now I understand why the front lines have not moved in over a month, several preeminent capsuleer groups are too busy slinging insults at the other via Galnet.
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Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
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Posted - 2008.07.20 23:53:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Ereka Nihil
For crying out loud, this is like the third time in this thread that one side has claimed the other does something, and the other points the finger right back at them.
Its like watching creche infants fight - now I understand why the front lines have not moved in over a month, several preeminent capsuleer groups are too busy slinging insults at the other via Galnet.
Perhaps that is because the goals of the groups (not necessarily the individuals within them) are not mutual exclusive. As an example, Strix's and Lai Dai Infinity Systems' basic goals can actually both be achieved; the goal being the defense of sovereignty of their respective government (or in the case of LDIS megacorporation). There is perhaps 1 megacorporation that might have reason to occupy one of the systems that falls under the CONCORD militia act in Federation space; I have not seen a pod pilot partner to that corporation nor seen any request from that megacorporation to aid in securing that corporation's assets.
The goal of the Provist? I can only guess.
Pilots say we will win this war, but what is winning? Is it space superiority across the whole of the other's empire? Is it the glassing of very world under their authority (which will cause internal issues within the State as some megacorporations have assets scattered throughout the Republic, Federation, and Empire)?
Founder Heiian Society |
Stitcher
Caldari
Duty.
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Posted - 2008.07.20 23:54:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Stitcher on 20/07/2008 23:53:52
Actually, I think the front lines have failed to move for more than a month because the vast bulk of the pilots on both sides of the line are massively incompetent, and the few skilled soldiers on either side lack the numbers to actually achieve anything.
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Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain. |
Ereka Nihil
Crux Offensive Systems
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Posted - 2008.07.21 00:54:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Ereka Nihil on 21/07/2008 00:53:54
Originally by: Stitcher
Actually, I think the front lines have failed to move for more than a month because the vast bulk of the pilots on both sides of the line are massively incompetent...
Isn't that the truth...
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BloodBird
Gallente
Federal Defence Union
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Posted - 2008.07.22 03:40:00 -
[71]
Mr. Zagamesh, your oppinions, vile as they are to me, have been noted.
As I have stated on STRIX's internal boards, the only flaw with said corporation I've found up until now is YOU. You alone are the sole reason I've started to second-guess my desire to join your corporation. While the rest of STRIX seems decent enough, a man of your belief and attitude will be a real hindrance to any enjoying or lasting time in your corporation. For the moment I will still give this a try, have a chat with Miss. Tisserand and see where things stand. In the meantime your oppinions are something I will sadly have to live with.
All of this don't prevent me from trying to understand your point of view though. As is my custom, when dealing with people like you, I'll ask you a question.
Pilot Zagamesh, what is the reason(s) behind you apparent hatred of the Caldari, to the point where you feel that having them all killed is an acceptable outcome of this war? Previously I've asked several others something simmilar and only one did answer up until now. his answer was not satisfying either. I hope you will prove diffrent.
By all means, start talking, I'm eager to hear this.
Sig source |
mastergsann
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Posted - 2008.08.06 12:58:00 -
[72]
Did you aggro them are are you just able to just shoot at people?
also are you guys messing about or are you really taking the game this seriously but i guess some like their role playing.
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Rhanna Khurin
Minmatar
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.08.08 16:34:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Rhanna Khurin on 08/08/2008 16:37:16
Edited by: Rhanna Khurin on 08/08/2008 16:36:07
Tibus Heth was once a terrorist himself, among the Minmatar militia is it widely known that he once was part of an organisation that was hunted by both Gallente and Caldari.
The Caldari leader is nothing but a racist, the sooner the maniac is removed from any position of power the better.
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