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Max to the max, yo! Xtreeeem!

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John Holt Caldari Tovil-Toba's Elite Guard	Posted - 2008.07.17 08:12:00 - [1] Edited by: John Holt on 17/07/2008 08:14:12 "Max to the max, yo! Xtreeeem!" is the title of an article in the most recent edition (Year 3, #28) of Eve Tribune. Most of the Tribune this week focuses on the recently announced "Max" campaign by BOB. In this particular article the author criticizes CCP for promoting Bob and the Max campaign. How did CCP do this? According to the author of the piece CCP did it by writing an article about Bob's recent loses in the North. The problem with this line of reasoning is that CCP didn't write the article--ISD (Interstellar Service Division) IC (Interstellar Correspondents) wrote the article. ISD is a division whereby PLAYERS serve the Eve community in various roles. IC is responsible for reporting the news. These reporters dig up their own material--it is not dictated by CCP to them. I'm not a fan of BOB or their campaign, but let's get our facts right. I know there are many who would like to believe Bob's success comes from favoritism by CCP. Simply put, the facts are not there to support this notion, and the news article referenced by the Tribune doesn't support the notion either. John Holt My Personal Eve Site
Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2008.07.17 08:14:00 - [2] Who is this Max anyway? Is it the guy that won the FanFest tournament that time? Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar?
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2008.07.17 08:57:00 - [3] Originally by: John Holt Edited by: John Holt on 17/07/2008 08:14:12 "Max to the max, yo! Xtreeeem!" is the title of an article in the most recent edition (Year 3, #28) of Eve Tribune. Most of the Tribune this week focuses on the recently announced "Max" campaign by BOB. In this particular article the author criticizes CCP for promoting Bob and the Max campaign. How did CCP do this? According to the author of the piece CCP did it by writing an article about Bob's recent loses in the North. The problem with this line of reasoning is that CCP didn't write the article--ISD (Interstellar Service Division) IC (Interstellar Correspondents) wrote the article. ISD is a division whereby PLAYERS serve the Eve community in various roles. IC is responsible for reporting the news. These reporters dig up their own material--it is not dictated by CCP to them. I'm not a fan of BOB or their campaign, but let's get our facts right. I know there are many who would like to believe Bob's success comes from favoritism by CCP. Simply put, the facts are not there to support this notion, and the news article referenced by the Tribune doesn't support the notion either. Max damage control?
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.07.17 09:04:00 - [4] That's a pretty bitter article. I will forgive the NYT for not having the stomache to delve deep into Eve politics and carefully researching their article, but the Eve Tribune is supposed to have some kind of idea of how the game is played out. Is the Tribune merely a message board where people can blog about their views on the Eve universe, or is it a proper news outlet? This article points to the former. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.17 10:01:00 - [5] Originally by: Ki An Is the Tribune merely a message board where people can blog about their views on the Eve universe, or is it a proper news outlet? This article points to the former. Eve Tribune has ignored bias in their reporters articles for quite while now. The quality of articles published on the formally quite interesting site have been on the decline for better part of a year now and the sad fact is that it seems to be perfectly acceptable these days to have personal rants and uninformed "experts" opinions being headline news. It seems that either not many people bother to put forward articles to ET anymore or the ET editor has given up and interest in it. ---
RaTTuS BIG Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2008.07.17 10:05:00 - [6] People at the NYT play eve I thought no one played eve as it's dead ? -- BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve, USERPROFILE
Zeoliter Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.07.17 10:06:00 - [7] It's a "newspaper" in a game. It's not real life. Do you think whoever runs it really cares if the authors are impartial?
Mr M	Posted - 2008.07.17 10:44:00 - [8] Is it that time of the year already? If you feel you can do a better job than our writers you're welcome to join us at our forum. EVE Tribune \| EVEgeek
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.17 10:56:00 - [9] Originally by: Mr M Is it that time of the year already? If you feel you can do a better job than our writers you're welcome to join us at our forum. Something I had thought of doing once but unfortunately as the response of yourself and your editor to any form of criticism (apart from the occasional spelling error) is a blanket "STFU" I decided against it. I wouldn't want to be associated with a publication who counts biased ranting as journalism. ---
Mr M	Posted - 2008.07.17 11:11:00 - [10] Originally by: Heartstone Something I had thought of doing once but unfortunately as the response of yourself and your editor to any form of criticism (apart from the occasional spelling error) is a blanket "STFU" I decided against it. I wouldn't want to be associated with a publication who counts biased ranting as journalism. You just enjoy telling people they're doing it the wrong way? Ok, fine with me. EVE Tribune \| EVEgeek

Discordia Duenna The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2008.07.17 11:20:00 - [11] Originally by: Heartstone Originally by: Mr M Is it that time of the year already? If you feel you can do a better job than our writers you're welcome to join us at our forum. Something I had thought of doing once but unfortunately as the response of yourself and your editor to any form of criticism (apart from the occasional spelling error) is a blanket "STFU" I decided against it. I wouldn't want to be associated with a publication who counts biased ranting as journalism. You must not read rl journalism then, it's full of it...or are you deluding yourself?
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.07.17 11:33:00 - [12] Originally by: Discordia Duenna You must not read rl journalism then, it's full of it...or are you deluding yourself? Depends on what you read, and what you know about those that wrote it. The problem here is that Eve Tribune has (had) a good reputation. We are merely critizising it for something we thought was bad journalism. The Tribune can either acknowledge this critizism or do as they have done in this thread and go "why don't you do a better job then". Persnally, I'd have preferred if they had gone with the former approach. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
sakana North Eastern Swat Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2008.07.17 11:36:00 - [13] That article is terrible. So full of bias its not even comparable to a UK tabloid.
Zikka Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2008.07.17 15:39:00 - [14] And yet during the Bob/ASCN war everyone was saying we were biased in favour of Bob. I agree that writer does seem to have some bias the other way but everyone brings their own view on things. I second what Mr M said - come write for us and prove you can do better. You get paid Isk for it and we always need more writers. It's funny how people always complain about articles but when challenged to write a counter article to be posted in the following weeks issue (and get paid for it!) they go quiet. Zikka/Zarch
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.07.17 16:01:00 - [15] Originally by: Zikka And yet during the Bob/ASCN war everyone was saying we were biased in favour of Bob. I agree that writer does seem to have some bias the other way but everyone brings their own view on things. I second what Mr M said - come write for us and prove you can do better. You get paid Isk for it and we always need more writers. It's funny how people always complain about articles but when challenged to write a counter article to be posted in the following weeks issue (and get paid for it!) they go quiet. Zikka/Zarch Ok, you seriously have to decide wether your 'Tribune' is an actual news outlet or a mere blog site. A news outlet doesn't really have the luxury of just shouting "do it yourself if you don't like it" at their readers. A news outlet is supposed to go with well researched articles, and when they don't, they are supposed to be critizised for it. Well, this is our critique of your article. It was poorly written, had obvious bias, and was so full of tinfoilhattery I know some UFO journals that would be hard pressed before publishing something like it. This is not a matter of us telling you we could do a better job (although, in this particular case, I'd imagine a lot of us could). This is us saying "Read through your articles before publishing them". This isn't a Goons vs BoB thing. This is readers reacting to bad journalism. Take from it what you will, but I hope you react to it in another way than just throwing your toys off the pram. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Heartstone Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2008.07.17 16:53:00 - [16] Originally by: Mr M You just enjoy telling people they're doing it the wrong way? Ok, fine with me. Nope not at all. I prefer to read well written balanced journalism and be able to point out my frustration with an article/publication if it does have something I view as a problem and having said publication say something along the lines of "Fair enough we see you viewpoint and your reasons for it but respectfully disagree because of X, Y and Z" rather than things such as this. Your forum you suggest we join has many of examples of where people have criticized your publication for some reason only to receive hostility from your own staff for voicing their opinions. In the end though it doesn't really matter what I think. It's not about me. It's about how the publication you started is viewed by the masses who read it. Personally I would veer heavily away from the tabloid side but I guess it does sell. ---
Roc Wieler Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2008.07.17 17:12:00 - [17] Originally by: Mr M Is it that time of the year already? If you feel you can do a better job than our writers you're welcome to join us at our forum. I actually like this statement. It applies to all community efforts, whether it be artwork, music, 3D modelling, writing, application development, what have you. People are so very quick to criticize and tear something down, and yet they don't step up and do better themselves. The response to this of course is "Oh, can't take a critique?" but whatever. The true meaning of criticism is definitely not what 99.9% of the anonymous, ePeen bloated forum users offer. "Never start a fight you can win." - Roc Wieler
Druadan Aristotle Enterprises	Posted - 2008.07.17 17:16:00 - [18] Originally by: Heartstone Originally by: Ki An Is the Tribune merely a message board where people can blog about their views on the Eve universe, or is it a proper news outlet? This article points to the former. Eve Tribune has ignored bias in their reporters articles for quite while now. The quality of articles published on the formally quite interesting site have been on the decline for better part of a year now and the sad fact is that it seems to be perfectly acceptable these days to have personal rants and uninformed "experts" opinions being headline news. It seems that either not many people bother to put forward articles to ET anymore or the ET editor has given up and interest in it. Just about, aye. I stopped reading Eve Tribune when their 'experts' started suggesting 'gank' fits with no damage mods. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint
Kneebone	Posted - 2008.07.17 17:19:00 - [19] It is actually rather easy to ignore the editors. If you write a solid article it will get by on it's own, simple stuff really. Plus we do stuff outside of game politics like interviews, covering things like CSM, looking at ships and what not, etc. There is also the whole summer slowdown going on right now. People are taking a break, getting some fresh air, the usual stuff.
sinqlaison Amarr Capital Builders Inc.	Posted - 2008.07.17 19:03:00 - [20] Don't like it? Build a titan yourself. We have delivered 11 titan packages to date ;-) titan component packages

Kuar Z'thain Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.07.17 19:15:00 - [21] Originally by: sinqlaison Don't like it? Build a titan yourself. We have delivered 11 titan packages to date ;-) titan component packages ....epic threadjack. On-topic: You can't count on anything to be unbiased and honestly, writing your own article would be the best way. I also think the ET's staff response of "STFU and let's see you do better" may be a good response, but definitely not the right way to say it.
Kneebone	Posted - 2008.07.17 19:17:00 - [22] Edited by: Kneebone on 17/07/2008 19:34:13 Originally by: sinqlaison Don't like it? Build a titan yourself. We have delivered 11 titan packages to date ;-) titan component packages Go crawl into the industry forums please... Quote: On-topic: You can't count on anything to be unbiased and honestly, writing your own article would be the best way. I also think the ET's staff response of "STFU and let's see you do better" may be a good response, but definitely not the right way to say it. How about more like an "invitation to write a counter point" instead of "STFU"? Truthfully the guys are open to suggestions for any type of article. They are always looking for stuff they would like to see, but if you have a good thing, even if they don't agree with it, they will put it out there.
FinnAgain Zero	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:25:00 - [23] So if I follow the logic correctly... CCP is not responsible for any bias and sloppy writing because it's EVE players, and not owners, who write it. Even though CCP has to approve and post the pieces, CCP is not responsible. The Tribune is responsible for any bias and sloppy writing although it's EVE players, and not Mr. M, who write it. And because the Tribune has to approve and post the pieces, the Tribune is responsible. Okay. Yet again, the Tribune tries to bring you quality stuff. And when we can't do that, we try to entertain a majority of our readers. And when we can't do that, we try to make sure we at least put issues that might give some readers some enjoyment. We are not 1) journalism students 2) paid 3) paid journalists I detect a trend. It's an internet fanzine about an imaginary world with immortal spaceship pilots, and real-world gigantic egos large enough to have their own gravitational fields. This is not exactly a lack of hard hitting reporting on an administration's claims about weapons of mass destruction. It's about Sir Molle's hat. Criticism is, rightly, often met with an offer for the person complaining to not only state their opinion, but to do it in public, on our own site, in the same place the offending article was. And we offer to pay them ISK for it. I have never once, not once, had someone who complained, take us up on the offer. Not once. Threads on our forums that complain about how we do things/what we write are, again, correctly, locked. After, of course, we let the upset person know that not only will we allow them a public forum to voice their disagreements, we will pay them ISK for their trouble. Many folks want to whine on our forums without contributing anything, and that, quite frankly, is not what they're for. Not. Not. Not. If you have the time to whine, you have the time to put it in a Word document and make ISK for your trouble. If you have time to participate in a flamewar, you sure as sunshine have time to write up a 500 word article on why your view is the correct one. I'm not exactly sure what people expect. You read us, for free. We write, because we enjoy the game. You are out absolutely nothing for reading an issue of the Tribune. We certainly don't claim to be experts (in fact, I don't remember any writer, in the history of the paper, ever seriously claiming to be an expert). We don't claim to be ruthlessly objective, free from subjective opinions or that we cleave to the Principles of Journalism. And for the love of wombats, it's summer. Most people are out in the sun enjoying fun, games, beer and girls in skimpy clothing. (or boys in skimpy clothing, whatever). That we can even get you any issues, at all, is quite frankly miraculous. The suggestion that the decline in quantity, or even quality, of our output is due to our "reputation" is simple tinfoil hattism put forward by folks who don't have any actual information. We've always had a core of two or three prolific writers during any stretch of time, and they generally buoy our issues. Over time, they get bored, burnt out, or just wander away from EVE entirely. Sometimes others step forward and replace them, other times we have to go through a valley before hitting a peak again. And sometimes people just get lazy. That, or people who need to unclench hound them until writing for a fanzine begins to feel less like a hobby, more like a job, and much more like they've got media watchdogs breathing down their necks then people who we hope will read the Tribune for enjoyment and/or bits of info. Does anybody wonder why writing for an internet fanzine might not be fun, when we actually have people seriously comparing our staffers to paid journalists in order to slag them? We do our best to inform, entertain and/or alleviate boredom. That's it. ------------------------------------------------ Hohohoho, Mister Finn, youÆre going to be Mister Finnagain! Comeday morm and, O, youÆre vine! SenddayÆs eve and, ah, youÆre vinegar! Hahahaha, Mister
Soliscout	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:29:00 - [24] Originally by: Chribba Who is this Max anyway? I guess they are talking about Max Payne
Le Skunk Low Sec Liberators	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:42:00 - [25] Maximum Luggage SKUNK
Mazzarins Demise Profit Development and Research Association	Posted - 2008.07.18 16:48:00 - [26] Originally by: Soliscout Originally by: Chribba Who is this Max anyway? I guess they are talking about Max Payne I had a permanent constipated grimace on my face. I was revenge personified.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2008.07.18 17:16:00 - [27] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 18/07/2008 17:23:29 Originally by: FinnAgain Zero CCP is not responsible for any bias and sloppy writing because it's EVE players, and not owners, who write it. Even though CCP has to approve and post the pieces, CCP is not responsible. The Tribune is responsible for any bias and sloppy writing although it's EVE players, and not Mr. M, who write it. And because the Tribune has to approve and post the pieces, the Tribune is responsible. Very simple difference for me: EVE new posts are reports done from a RP point of view by in game reporters, so they are written from the point of view of a citizen of EVE. So they can be biased or misinformed and still be acceptable. The article in question was written from a out of game prospective, speaking of out of game events and not in game events only, so it has standard of objectivity and fairness that aren't required by a article written from a in game prospective. If it was article saying "Alliance X call bullox the max initiative" it would have been perfectly ok.
FinnAgain Zero	Posted - 2008.07.18 19:04:00 - [28] Look, I'm not trying to be condescending but I also think that you don't quite understand what the Tribune is or what it presents itself to be. It has published editorial statements of policy (I know, I wrote 'em), about how and why we conduct ourselves as we do. We do not pretend to hold "fairness" or "objectivity" as guiding principles. We don't aim at "serious news". Anybody who uses the words "serious news" in a discussion about immortal pilots sitting in goo-pods flying imaginary spaceships in the distant future? They have missed the point. We're just trying to inform and/or entertain. That we can, on occasion, point out actual bull and bring it to the attention of our readers? That's an absolute coup and it's wonderful when we can do it. But we're not investigative journalists, at all. We're not even really journalists. We write for an internet fan 'zine. That's it. The idea of criticizing a 100% free internet fan 'zine is a bit silly, especially if folks aren't willing to contribute to it. Any single person in this thread can feel free to write in with their own views on BoB's campaign (and we've solicited comments from members/FC's of BoB itself, hopefully something will come of that). We'll even pay them 20 mil ISK per page. Folks want to call it a blog? Fine, call it a blog. The idea that we're a "proper news outlet" is Jabberwockian, however. I mean, honestly, we write about internet spaceships and get paid in imaginary money. Fiercely criticizing a free product that's only meant to give you some enjoyment is just odd. It's like complaining that public access TV isn't as good as HBO or that the local college newspaper isn't CNN. We're just a bunch of folks who enjoy writing about internet spaceships. And we have real jobs, lives and families which come way, way before worrying about whether or not that week's spitballing would pass muster at the BBC. Has the amount of content we have changed as people moved on or stopped writing? Sure. Has the quality become less even as people have other priorities during the summer? Without a doubt. But, honestly, if folks don't like the Tribune, they shouldn't read it. If they think they have better ideas, they're welcome to contribute. People whose only 'contribution' is to talk about how much it sucks, don't add anything. They can't possibly add anything other than annoyance. That's why we, pretty much without exception, offer them a public forum and ISK to share their views. But I mean, seriously, one guy upthread was whining that we wouldn't let him come to our forums and badmouth us without contributing anything other than kvetching. We're not only supposed to pay you to write contrary opinions, but use our forums to smacktalk us, too? If people like what we write, cool, we're glad. If they don't, they can take the very easy step of not reading it. If they generally like it but see a flaw, they can man up and write down their opinion, earning cash to buy a Gist B-type 1mn MWD or something... or they can snipe and flame us. I don't know what people think that'll accomplish. As if, we've got an issue edited and published, and someone says that our fittings sucks... what're we going to do? Re-open the issue and post "A user with the name of Zoro's Sword thinks that our fittings/opinions/predictions suck. He calls us noobs. Just thought you should know." Even the argument over whether we're "proper news" or "tabloid journalism" is bonkers. We're an internet fan 'zine about imaginary spacaeships. It's a matter of perspective. Hell, as it is, we're routinely told that we're biased for/against everybody in the game. Often the same writer is accused of being pro-BoB and anti-BoB one week to the next. We get flamed for not providing enough news coverage, but then when we do, it's not done right. Of course, if we just stuck to the facts, all we'd be doing was re-writing the same old boring CCP announcements anyway, and we'd be flamed for being boring. ------------------------------------------------ Hohohoho, Mister Finn, youÆre going to be Mister Finnagain! Comeday morm and, O, youÆre vine! SenddayÆs eve and, ah, youÆre vinegar! Hahahaha, Mister
Ki An Gallente Filiolus Of Bellum	Posted - 2008.07.18 20:18:00 - [29] Well, as you are just trying to inform and entertain, let me inform you that the article in question was neither informative nor entertaining. In fact, it was upsetting, as it continued to dig into that wound that is the T20 scandal, without any objectivity or style. It was basically a middle-finger pointed to every player of Eve, we who keep paying for the game, hinting that the game is rigged. Most of us remember the T20 thing. We all remember feeling outraged, and rightly so. That scandal may or may not have had a real conclusion, but most of us decided to accept the dev blogs concerning the issue, accept that CCP would try to better themselves, and keep playing the game. For some reason, which I can only imagine is a lingering bitterness, some people keep trying to turn this two year old episode into a propaganda weapon for today's conflicts. Doing this hurts not only CCP, but the rest of us who have faith in that Eve now is a game where anyone can succeed, wether or not they know the devs personally. People seriously need to stop doing this, or at least make a stand against the devs who they still think are cheating, and quit the game. Stop ****ing dragging it up. Give it a rest, and we won't have the extremely bitter climate surrounding every 0.0 conflict. The article in question did nothing but spurr on new wild conspiracy theories and sew new discontent amongst many players who still feel a bit bitter by being kicked around by BoB in the past. This bitterness should be allowed to heal, and not be continuously poked at. The article was nothing else than a propaganda piece for a current 0.0 conflict, and should at least have been signed with name and alligeance. As it could also be seen as damaging to the game, it should have been pulled entirelly. Again, if you guys at Eve Tribune can't take this kind of critisizm, you really shouldn't be playing news paper. Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
Max Teranous Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.07.18 20:20:00 - [30] Originally by: Chribba Who is this Max anyway? Is it the guy that won the FanFest tournament that time? You called ? Max

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