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John Holt
Caldari
Tovil-Toba's Elite Guard
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Posted - 2008.07.17 08:12:00 -
[1]
Edited by: John Holt on 17/07/2008 08:14:12
"Max to the max, yo! Xtreeeem!" is the title of an article in the most recent edition (Year 3, #28) of Eve Tribune. Most of the Tribune this week focuses on the recently announced "Max" campaign by BOB.
In this particular article the author criticizes CCP for promoting Bob and the Max campaign. How did CCP do this? According to the author of the piece CCP did it by writing an article about Bob's recent loses in the North.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that CCP didn't write the article--ISD (Interstellar Service Division) IC (Interstellar Correspondents) wrote the article. ISD is a division whereby PLAYERS serve the Eve community in various roles. IC is responsible for reporting the news. These reporters dig up their own material--it is not dictated by CCP to them.
I'm not a fan of BOB or their campaign, but let's get our facts right. I know there are many who would like to believe Bob's success comes from favoritism by CCP. Simply put, the facts are not there to support this notion, and the news article referenced by the Tribune doesn't support the notion either.
John Holt
My Personal Eve Site |
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
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Posted - 2008.07.17 08:14:00 -
[2]
Who is this Max anyway? Is it the guy that won the FanFest tournament that time? 
Secure 3rd party service ■ Do you Veldspar? |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2008.07.17 08:57:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: John Holt
Edited by: John Holt on 17/07/2008 08:14:12
"Max to the max, yo! Xtreeeem!" is the title of an article in the most recent edition (Year 3, #28) of Eve Tribune. Most of the Tribune this week focuses on the recently announced "Max" campaign by BOB.
In this particular article the author criticizes CCP for promoting Bob and the Max campaign. How did CCP do this? According to the author of the piece CCP did it by writing an article about Bob's recent loses in the North.
The problem with this line of reasoning is that CCP didn't write the article--ISD (Interstellar Service Division) IC (Interstellar Correspondents) wrote the article. ISD is a division whereby PLAYERS serve the Eve community in various roles. IC is responsible for reporting the news. These reporters dig up their own material--it is not dictated by CCP to them.
I'm not a fan of BOB or their campaign, but let's get our facts right. I know there are many who would like to believe Bob's success comes from favoritism by CCP. Simply put, the facts are not there to support this notion, and the news article referenced by the Tribune doesn't support the notion either.
Max damage control?
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Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.07.17 09:04:00 -
[4]
That's a pretty bitter article. I will forgive the NYT for not having the stomache to delve deep into Eve politics and carefully researching their article, but the Eve Tribune is supposed to have some kind of idea of how the game is played out.
Is the Tribune merely a message board where people can blog about their views on the Eve universe, or is it a proper news outlet? This article points to the former.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.17 10:01:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Ki An
Is the Tribune merely a message board where people can blog about their views on the Eve universe, or is it a proper news outlet? This article points to the former.
Eve Tribune has ignored bias in their reporters articles for quite while now. The quality of articles published on the formally quite interesting site have been on the decline for better part of a year now and the sad fact is that it seems to be perfectly acceptable these days to have personal rants and uninformed "experts" opinions being headline news. It seems that either not many people bother to put forward articles to ET anymore or the ET editor has given up and interest in it.
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RaTTuS
BIG
Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2008.07.17 10:05:00 -
[6]
People at the NYT play eve
I thought no one played eve as it's dead ?
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BIG Lottery, BIG Deal, InEve,
USERPROFILE
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Zeoliter
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.17 10:06:00 -
[7]
It's a "newspaper" in a game. It's not real life. Do you think whoever runs it really cares if the authors are impartial?
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Mr M
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Posted - 2008.07.17 10:44:00 -
[8]
Is it that time of the year already? If you feel you can do a better job than our writers you're welcome to join us at our forum.
EVE Tribune | EVEgeek |
Heartstone
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.17 10:56:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Mr M
Is it that time of the year already? If you feel you can do a better job than our writers you're welcome to join us at our forum.
Something I had thought of doing once but unfortunately as the response of yourself and your editor to any form of criticism (apart from the occasional spelling error) is a blanket "STFU" I decided against it. I wouldn't want to be associated with a publication who counts biased ranting as journalism.
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Mr M
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Posted - 2008.07.17 11:11:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Heartstone
Something I had thought of doing once but unfortunately as the response of yourself and your editor to any form of criticism (apart from the occasional spelling error) is a blanket "STFU" I decided against it. I wouldn't want to be associated with a publication who counts biased ranting as journalism.
You just enjoy telling people they're doing it the wrong way? Ok, fine with me.
EVE Tribune | EVEgeek |
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Discordia Duenna
The Gosimer and Scarab
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Posted - 2008.07.17 11:20:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Heartstone
Originally by: Mr M
Is it that time of the year already? If you feel you can do a better job than our writers you're welcome to join us at our forum.
Something I had thought of doing once but unfortunately as the response of yourself and your editor to any form of criticism (apart from the occasional spelling error) is a blanket "STFU" I decided against it. I wouldn't want to be associated with a publication who counts biased ranting as journalism.
You must not read rl journalism then, it's full of it...or are you deluding yourself?
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Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.07.17 11:33:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Discordia Duenna
You must not read rl journalism then, it's full of it...or are you deluding yourself?
Depends on what you read, and what you know about those that wrote it.
The problem here is that Eve Tribune has (had) a good reputation. We are merely critizising it for something we thought was bad journalism. The Tribune can either acknowledge this critizism or do as they have done in this thread and go "why don't you do a better job then". Persnally, I'd have preferred if they had gone with the former approach.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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sakana
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.17 11:36:00 -
[13]
That article is terrible. So full of bias its not even comparable to a UK tabloid.
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Zikka
Hematite Rose
Bionic Dawn
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Posted - 2008.07.17 15:39:00 -
[14]
And yet during the Bob/ASCN war everyone was saying we were biased in favour of Bob. I agree that writer does seem to have some bias the other way but everyone brings their own view on things.
I second what Mr M said - come write for us and prove you can do better. You get paid Isk for it and we always need more writers. It's funny how people always complain about articles but when challenged to write a counter article to be posted in the following weeks issue (and get paid for it!) they go quiet.
Zikka/Zarch
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Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.07.17 16:01:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Zikka
And yet during the Bob/ASCN war everyone was saying we were biased in favour of Bob. I agree that writer does seem to have some bias the other way but everyone brings their own view on things.
I second what Mr M said - come write for us and prove you can do better. You get paid Isk for it and we always need more writers. It's funny how people always complain about articles but when challenged to write a counter article to be posted in the following weeks issue (and get paid for it!) they go quiet.
Zikka/Zarch
Ok, you seriously have to decide wether your 'Tribune' is an actual news outlet or a mere blog site. A news outlet doesn't really have the luxury of just shouting "do it yourself if you don't like it" at their readers. A news outlet is supposed to go with well researched articles, and when they don't, they are supposed to be critizised for it.
Well, this is our critique of your article. It was poorly written, had obvious bias, and was so full of tinfoilhattery I know some UFO journals that would be hard pressed before publishing something like it.
This is not a matter of us telling you we could do a better job (although, in this particular case, I'd imagine a lot of us could). This is us saying "Read through your articles before publishing them". This isn't a Goons vs BoB thing. This is readers reacting to bad journalism. Take from it what you will, but I hope you react to it in another way than just throwing your toys off the pram.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Heartstone
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.07.17 16:53:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Mr M
You just enjoy telling people they're doing it the wrong way? Ok, fine with me.
Nope not at all. I prefer to read well written balanced journalism and be able to point out my frustration with an article/publication if it does have something I view as a problem and having said publication say something along the lines of "Fair enough we see you viewpoint and your reasons for it but respectfully disagree because of X, Y and Z" rather than things such as this. Your forum you suggest we join has many of examples of where people have criticized your publication for some reason only to receive hostility from your own staff for voicing their opinions.
In the end though it doesn't really matter what I think. It's not about me. It's about how the publication you started is viewed by the masses who read it. Personally I would veer heavily away from the tabloid side but I guess it does sell.
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Roc Wieler
Tribal Liberation Force
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Posted - 2008.07.17 17:12:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Mr M
Is it that time of the year already? If you feel you can do a better job than our writers you're welcome to join us at our forum.
I actually like this statement. It applies to all community efforts, whether it be artwork, music, 3D modelling, writing, application development, what have you.
People are so very quick to criticize and tear something down, and yet they don't step up and do better themselves.
The response to this of course is "Oh, can't take a critique?" but whatever. The true meaning of criticism is definitely not what 99.9% of the anonymous, ePeen bloated forum users offer.
"Never start a fight you can win." - Roc Wieler |
Druadan
Aristotle Enterprises
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Posted - 2008.07.17 17:16:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Heartstone
Originally by: Ki An
Is the Tribune merely a message board where people can blog about their views on the Eve universe, or is it a proper news outlet? This article points to the former.
Eve Tribune has ignored bias in their reporters articles for quite while now. The quality of articles published on the formally quite interesting site have been on the decline for better part of a year now and the sad fact is that it seems to be perfectly acceptable these days to have personal rants and uninformed "experts" opinions being headline news. It seems that either not many people bother to put forward articles to ET anymore or the ET editor has given up and interest in it.
Just about, aye. I stopped reading Eve Tribune when their 'experts' started suggesting 'gank' fits with no damage mods.
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint |
Kneebone
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Posted - 2008.07.17 17:19:00 -
[19]
It is actually rather easy to ignore the editors. If you write a solid article it will get by on it's own, simple stuff really. Plus we do stuff outside of game politics like interviews, covering things like CSM, looking at ships and what not, etc.
There is also the whole summer slowdown going on right now. People are taking a break, getting some fresh air, the usual stuff.
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sinqlaison
Amarr
Capital Builders Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.17 19:03:00 -
[20]
Don't like it? Build a titan yourself. We have delivered 11 titan packages to date ;-) titan component packages
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Kuar Z'thain
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.17 19:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: sinqlaison
Don't like it? Build a titan yourself. We have delivered 11 titan packages to date ;-) titan component packages
....epic threadjack. 
On-topic: You can't count on anything to be unbiased and honestly, writing your own article would be the best way. I also think the ET's staff response of "STFU and let's see you do better" may be a good response, but definitely not the right way to say it.
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Kneebone
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Posted - 2008.07.17 19:17:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Kneebone on 17/07/2008 19:34:13
Originally by: sinqlaison
Don't like it? Build a titan yourself. We have delivered 11 titan packages to date ;-) titan component packages
Go crawl into the industry forums please...
Quote:
On-topic: You can't count on anything to be unbiased and honestly, writing your own article would be the best way. I also think the ET's staff response of "STFU and let's see you do better" may be a good response, but definitely not the right way to say it.
How about more like an "invitation to write a counter point" instead of "STFU"?
Truthfully the guys are open to suggestions for any type of article. They are always looking for stuff they would like to see, but if you have a good thing, even if they don't agree with it, they will put it out there.
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FinnAgain Zero
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Posted - 2008.07.18 16:25:00 -
[23]
So if I follow the logic correctly...
CCP is not responsible for any bias and sloppy writing because it's EVE players, and not owners, who write it. Even though CCP has to approve and post the pieces, CCP is not responsible.
The Tribune is responsible for any bias and sloppy writing although it's EVE players, and not Mr. M, who write it. And because the Tribune has to approve and post the pieces, the Tribune is responsible.
Okay.
Yet again, the Tribune tries to bring you quality stuff. And when we can't do that, we try to entertain a majority of our readers. And when we can't do that, we try to make sure we at least put issues that might give some readers some enjoyment.
We are not 1) journalism students 2) paid 3) paid journalists
I detect a trend.
It's an internet fanzine about an imaginary world with immortal spaceship pilots, and real-world gigantic egos large enough to have their own gravitational fields.
This is not exactly a lack of hard hitting reporting on an administration's claims about weapons of mass destruction. It's about Sir Molle's hat.
Criticism is, rightly, often met with an offer for the person complaining to not only state their opinion, but to do it in public, on our own site, in the same place the offending article was. And we offer to pay them ISK for it. I have never once, not once, had someone who complained, take us up on the offer.
Not once.
Threads on our forums that complain about how we do things/what we write are, again, correctly, locked. After, of course, we let the upset person know that not only will we allow them a public forum to voice their disagreements, we will pay them ISK for their trouble. Many folks want to whine on our forums without contributing anything, and that, quite frankly, is not what they're for. Not. Not. Not. If you have the time to whine, you have the time to put it in a Word document and make ISK for your trouble. If you have time to participate in a flamewar, you sure as sunshine have time to write up a 500 word article on why your view is the correct one.
I'm not exactly sure what people expect.
You read us, for free.
We write, because we enjoy the game.
You are out absolutely nothing for reading an issue of the Tribune.
We certainly don't claim to be experts (in fact, I don't remember any writer, in the history of the paper, ever seriously claiming to be an expert). We don't claim to be ruthlessly objective, free from subjective opinions or that we cleave to the Principles of Journalism.
And for the love of wombats, it's summer. Most people are out in the sun enjoying fun, games, beer and girls in skimpy clothing. (or boys in skimpy clothing, whatever). That we can even get you any issues, at all, is quite frankly miraculous. The suggestion that the decline in quantity, or even quality, of our output is due to our "reputation" is simple tinfoil hattism put forward by folks who don't have any actual information. We've always had a core of two or three prolific writers during any stretch of time, and they generally buoy our issues. Over time, they get bored, burnt out, or just wander away from EVE entirely. Sometimes others step forward and replace them, other times we have to go through a valley before hitting a peak again. And sometimes people just get lazy.
That, or people who need to unclench hound them until writing for a fanzine begins to feel less like a hobby, more like a job, and much more like they've got media watchdogs breathing down their necks then people who we hope will read the Tribune for enjoyment and/or bits of info. Does anybody wonder why writing for an internet fanzine might not be fun, when we actually have people seriously comparing our staffers to paid journalists in order to slag them?
We do our best to inform, entertain and/or alleviate boredom.
That's it.
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Hohohoho, Mister Finn, youÆre going to be Mister Finnagain! Comeday morm and, O, youÆre vine! SenddayÆs eve and, ah, youÆre vinegar! Hahahaha, Mister |
Soliscout
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Posted - 2008.07.18 16:29:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Chribba
Who is this Max anyway?
I guess they are talking about Max Payne
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2008.07.18 16:42:00 -
[25]
Maximum Luggage
SKUNK
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Mazzarins Demise
Profit Development and Research Association
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Posted - 2008.07.18 16:48:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Soliscout
Originally by: Chribba
Who is this Max anyway?
I guess they are talking about Max Payne
I had a permanent constipated grimace on my face. I was revenge personified.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.18 17:16:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 18/07/2008 17:23:29
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
CCP is not responsible for any bias and sloppy writing because it's EVE players, and not owners, who write it. Even though CCP has to approve and post the pieces, CCP is not responsible.
The Tribune is responsible for any bias and sloppy writing although it's EVE players, and not Mr. M, who write it. And because the Tribune has to approve and post the pieces, the Tribune is responsible.
Very simple difference for me:
EVE new posts are reports done from a RP point of view by in game reporters, so they are written from the point of view of a citizen of EVE.
So they can be biased or misinformed and still be acceptable.
The article in question was written from a out of game prospective, speaking of out of game events and not in game events only, so it has standard of objectivity and fairness that aren't required by a article written from a in game prospective.
If it was article saying "Alliance X call bullox the max initiative" it would have been perfectly ok.
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FinnAgain Zero
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Posted - 2008.07.18 19:04:00 -
[28]
Look, I'm not trying to be condescending but I also think that you don't quite understand what the Tribune is or what it presents itself to be. It has published editorial statements of policy (I know, I wrote 'em), about how and why we conduct ourselves as we do. We do not pretend to hold "fairness" or "objectivity" as guiding principles.
We don't aim at "serious news".
Anybody who uses the words "serious news" in a discussion about immortal pilots sitting in goo-pods flying imaginary spaceships in the distant future?
They have missed the point.
We're just trying to inform and/or entertain.
That we can, on occasion, point out actual bull and bring it to the attention of our readers? That's an absolute coup and it's wonderful when we can do it. But we're not investigative journalists, at all.
We're not even really journalists. We write for an internet fan 'zine. That's it.
The idea of criticizing a 100% free internet fan 'zine is a bit silly, especially if folks aren't willing to contribute to it. Any single person in this thread can feel free to write in with their own views on BoB's campaign (and we've solicited comments from members/FC's of BoB itself, hopefully something will come of that). We'll even pay them 20 mil ISK per page.
Folks want to call it a blog? Fine, call it a blog. The idea that we're a "proper news outlet" is Jabberwockian, however. I mean, honestly, we write about internet spaceships and get paid in imaginary money. Fiercely criticizing a free product that's only meant to give you some enjoyment is just odd. It's like complaining that public access TV isn't as good as HBO or that the local college newspaper isn't CNN.
We're just a bunch of folks who enjoy writing about internet spaceships. And we have real jobs, lives and families which come way, way before worrying about whether or not that week's spitballing would pass muster at the BBC.
Has the amount of content we have changed as people moved on or stopped writing? Sure.
Has the quality become less even as people have other priorities during the summer? Without a doubt.
But, honestly, if folks don't like the Tribune, they shouldn't read it. If they think they have better ideas, they're welcome to contribute.
People whose only 'contribution' is to talk about how much it sucks, don't add anything. They can't possibly add anything other than annoyance. That's why we, pretty much without exception, offer them a public forum and ISK to share their views. But I mean, seriously, one guy upthread was whining that we wouldn't let him come to our forums and badmouth us without contributing anything other than kvetching. We're not only supposed to pay you to write contrary opinions, but use our forums to smacktalk us, too?
If people like what we write, cool, we're glad.
If they don't, they can take the very easy step of not reading it.
If they generally like it but see a flaw, they can man up and write down their opinion, earning cash to buy a Gist B-type 1mn MWD or something... or they can snipe and flame us. I don't know what people think that'll accomplish. As if, we've got an issue edited and published, and someone says that our fittings sucks... what're we going to do? Re-open the issue and post "A user with the name of Zoro's Sword thinks that our fittings/opinions/predictions suck. He calls us noobs. Just thought you should know."
Even the argument over whether we're "proper news" or "tabloid journalism" is bonkers.
We're an internet fan 'zine about imaginary spacaeships.
It's a matter of perspective.
Hell, as it is, we're routinely told that we're biased for/against everybody in the game. Often the same writer is accused of being pro-BoB and anti-BoB one week to the next. We get flamed for not providing enough news coverage, but then when we do, it's not done right. Of course, if we just stuck to the facts, all we'd be doing was re-writing the same old boring CCP announcements anyway, and we'd be flamed for being boring.
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Hohohoho, Mister Finn, youÆre going to be Mister Finnagain! Comeday morm and, O, youÆre vine! SenddayÆs eve and, ah, youÆre vinegar! Hahahaha, Mister |
Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.07.18 20:18:00 -
[29]
Well, as you are just trying to inform and entertain, let me inform you that the article in question was neither informative nor entertaining. In fact, it was upsetting, as it continued to dig into that wound that is the T20 scandal, without any objectivity or style. It was basically a middle-finger pointed to every player of Eve, we who keep paying for the game, hinting that the game is rigged.
Most of us remember the T20 thing. We all remember feeling outraged, and rightly so. That scandal may or may not have had a real conclusion, but most of us decided to accept the dev blogs concerning the issue, accept that CCP would try to better themselves, and keep playing the game.
For some reason, which I can only imagine is a lingering bitterness, some people keep trying to turn this two year old episode into a propaganda weapon for today's conflicts. Doing this hurts not only CCP, but the rest of us who have faith in that Eve now is a game where anyone can succeed, wether or not they know the devs personally. People seriously need to stop doing this, or at least make a stand against the devs who they still think are cheating, and quit the game. Stop ****ing dragging it up. Give it a rest, and we won't have the extremely bitter climate surrounding every 0.0 conflict.
The article in question did nothing but spurr on new wild conspiracy theories and sew new discontent amongst many players who still feel a bit bitter by being kicked around by BoB in the past. This bitterness should be allowed to heal, and not be continuously poked at. The article was nothing else than a propaganda piece for a current 0.0 conflict, and should at least have been signed with name and alligeance. As it could also be seen as damaging to the game, it should have been pulled entirelly.
Again, if you guys at Eve Tribune can't take this kind of critisizm, you really shouldn't be playing news paper.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Max Teranous
Reikoku
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2008.07.18 20:20:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Chribba
Who is this Max anyway? Is it the guy that won the FanFest tournament that time?
You called ?
Max
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FinnAgain Zero
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Posted - 2008.07.18 21:02:00 -
[31]
Just so we're clear, we don't have to "take" conspiracy mongering lunacy that sees bias behind every corner and a plot to destroy EVE... via fan 'zine. It doesn't hurt our feelings. It doesn't make us engage in soul-searching at 3 a.m. on lonely nights.
We can publish a fan 'zine and still laugh at emorage.
Multitasking is awesome.
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Hohohoho, Mister Finn, youÆre going to be Mister Finnagain! Comeday morm and, O, youÆre vine! SenddayÆs eve and, ah, youÆre vinegar! Hahahaha, Mister |
Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.07.18 21:03:00 -
[32]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Just so we're clear, we don't have to "take" conspiracy mongering lunacy that sees bias behind every corner and a plot to destroy EVE... via fan 'zine. It doesn't hurt our feelings. It doesn't make us engage in soul-searching at 3 a.m. on lonely nights.
We can publish a fan 'zine and still laugh at emorage.
Multitasking is awesome.
I suppose this is another one of your "We don't care what you say la-la-la" posts, huh?
Have you even read your own article? You're pretty stupid for a pretend news man.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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FinnAgain Zero
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Posted - 2008.07.18 21:38:00 -
[33]
So, to sum up: it really burns you up when anonymous strangers on the internet have minds of their own and won't do what you tell them, especially when you're factually incorrect and your arguments are irrational?
Sorry to hear that.
Keep demanding that we do what you tell us.
It's got to work sooner or later.
Maybe if you call us more names.
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Hohohoho, Mister Finn, youÆre going to be Mister Finnagain! Comeday morm and, O, youÆre vine! SenddayÆs eve and, ah, youÆre vinegar! Hahahaha, Mister |
Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.07.18 21:50:00 -
[34]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
So, to sum up: it really burns you up when anonymous strangers on the internet have minds of their own and won't do what you tell them, especially when you're factually incorrect and your arguments are irrational?
Sorry to hear that.
What was factually incorrect? Are you saying that everything in your article is God's truth and I am bad to question it?
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Keep demanding that we do what you tell us.
It's got to work sooner or later.
Maybe if you call us more names.
As I recall I haven't actually demanded anything. I have asked you to please accept my critisizm as such, and not as attacks on your writer. You responded by claiming I was a conspiracy nut that was emo-raging. I thought your reply was stupid, and I said as much.
I was thinking about actually speaking to people to see what they thought about your little magazine, and maybe even write an article for you to debunk the one I critisized. Then I thought that your tripe of a magazine didn't deserve as much, and I'd do my best to make sure people know that you not only write lies, but you're actually proud of it.
Now I've realised I don't have to do any of the former. You've pretty much buried yourself. GG.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Kneebone
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Posted - 2008.07.18 22:44:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Ki An
As I recall I haven't actually demanded anything. I have asked you to please accept my critisizm as such, and not as attacks on your writer. You responded by claiming I was a conspiracy nut that was emo-raging. I thought your reply was stupid, and I said as much.
I was thinking about actually speaking to people to see what they thought about your little magazine, and maybe even write an article for you to debunk the one I critisized. Then I thought that your tripe of a magazine didn't deserve as much, and I'd do my best to make sure people know that you not only write lies, but you're actually proud of it.
Now I've realised I don't have to do any of the former. You've pretty much buried yourself. GG.
So write the article and debunk it! In the time it took you to respond to these threads you could have written the piece you thought about, submitted it, etc.
And the pride doesn't come from writing truths, lies, opinions or whatever else pops into our minds, the pride comes from actually doing it.
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Atlas Oracle
Minmatar
Native Freshfood
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Posted - 2008.07.18 22:46:00 -
[36]
Originally by: FinnAgain Zero
Just so we're clear, we don't have to "take" conspiracy mongering lunacy that sees bias behind every corner and a plot to destroy EVE... via fan 'zine. It doesn't hurt our feelings. It doesn't make us engage in soul-searching at 3 a.m. on lonely nights.
We can publish a fan 'zine and still laugh at emorage.
Multitasking is awesome.
great marketing tactics. i really want to read your stuff now.
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Ki An
Gallente
Filiolus Of Bellum
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Posted - 2008.07.18 22:51:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Kneebone
So write the article and debunk it! In the time it took you to respond to these threads you could have written the piece you thought about, submitted it, etc.
Like I said, I'd rather stay away from your little pretend newspaper in the future. That's the thing about capitalizm. People can chose where they get their fill of things. You don't respond well to critique of your articles. As such, I'll chose not to read you.
Also, your articles suck.
Originally by: Kneebone
And the pride doesn't come from writing truths, lies, opinions or whatever else pops into our minds, the pride comes from actually doing it.
Yeah, that pretty much sums it up for me. Feel proud about your rep's behaviour in this thread.
Filiolus of Bellum is recruiting
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Franga
NQX Innovations
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Posted - 2008.07.18 22:55:00 -
[38]
@ Ki-An's long winded rants.
At least you can't say the guy has spunk. Or sass. You can't the guy doesn't have some form of sass.
Originally by: Rachel Vend
... with 100% reliability in most cases ...
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FinnAgain Zero
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Posted - 2008.07.18 23:20:00 -
[39]
Edited by: FinnAgain Zero on 18/07/2008 23:23:51
Originally by: Kneebone
So write the article and debunk it! In the time it took you to respond to these threads you could have written the piece you thought about, submitted it, etc.
The problem is, there's really nothing to "debunk". That CCP, objectively, published player news that was clearly pro-BoB propaganda is beyond dispute. That we stated, correctly, that by posting it CCP was posting pro-BoB propaganda and effectively taking BoB's side and repeating their rhetoric is, likewise, not really debatable. Even if CCP didn't mean to do that, that's what happens when each and every single EVE player who signs in is met by "The Max Age" complete with 100% uncritical acceptance of quotes directly from Shrike himself.
The only debunking the rage-filled boy conducted was of, quite frankly, conspiracy theories which he has to invent first, such as the Tribune publishing an article that "was nothing else than a propaganda piece for a current 0.0 conflict".
I fail to see how saying that CCP should remain impartial and not publish player news articles that obviously favor one alliance, is propaganda. In fact, we went out of our way to publish another article pointing out that Bob were talented, dedicated, well motivated and well backed by their industrial base.
Some people, it seems, are reacting quite strongly to the mockery used to point out the absurdity of the player news article's position. Denying that BoB is somehow the defining feature of EVE is not propaganda for or against any alliance at all. It's just pointing out silly rhetoric.
I suppose, of course, that someone could argue against the conventional EVE wisdom that you can only destroy an alliance by destroying its morale, but that'd be tough. Arguing for BoB being able to "control" people without controlling their space or their actions would be a much harder argument, but I suppose someone could make it.
Still, do you think he ever had anything to contribute other than "You are wrong, do what I tell you and don't talk back!"
Originally by: Kneebone
And the pride doesn't come from writing truths, lies, opinions or whatever else pops into our minds, the pride comes from actually doing it.
The funny thing, of course, is that he's alleged lies while pointing out... none.
That while making numerous demands and then playing all innocent. It's very weird for someone to continually demand that we do some things and refrain from doing others, and then act as if he wasn't actually making demands.
I'm not quite sure what those type of people actually believe the word "criticism" means. Someone offers their view, we think about it (and probably thought about it long before we were challenged), decide to trust our own judgment, and don't do what they're demanding. Then they say that we can't "take criticism". I don't even know what the heck they think that means. Does "taking criticism" mean we have to do anything other than see what they say, disagree with it, and go have a beer?
Something tells me that with the dishonesty he's shown, "responding well" to his criticism means obeying his demands. I've tried politely telling him he was wrong, and why. I've tried a bit of gentle mockery. Then I had to sit back and laugh as he hit meltdown. It's funny that someone can insult someone's integrity by claiming that they were shilling for an alliance, and pretend that he wasn't attacking anybody. (Just like calling me stupid, and then saying he was really talking about my argument.)
Emoraging children who demand that I "respond well" to their demands, not by listening and making up my own mind, but by obeying their commands are... funny.
Originally by: Atlas Oracle
great marketing tactics. i really want to read your stuff now.
I was marketing?
I should accept unfounded and untrue charges that we were publishing propaganda, otherwise you won't read the 'zine? You also think that "taking criticism" means demands should be obeyed?
Somehow, we'll manage.
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Hohohoho, Mister Finn, youÆre going to be Mister Finnagain! Comeday morm and, O, youÆre vine! SenddayÆs eve and, ah, youÆre vinegar! Hahahaha, Mister |
fuze
InfoMorph Services Ltd
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Posted - 2008.07.19 00:19:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Ki An
Have you even read your own article? You're pretty stupid for a pretend news man.
Hi mr condescending BOB COAD spunky flame alt.
The article itself was criticizing a fellow journalist who wasn't being objective with their report.
That in itself is a valid subject for an article. ISD is for reporting on Eve events but not being a bulletin board for alliances.
But he simply went too far with his anti-BOB and CCP rant. |
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Mr M
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Posted - 2008.07.19 00:33:00 -
[41]
What Finn said.
Oh... and if you're still upset about T20 two years later you really should think about you priorities. It's a game, and we're not even playing about real money here.
EVE Tribune | EVEgeek |
FinnAgain Zero
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Posted - 2008.07.19 01:08:00 -
[42]
Fuze: While I can respect that opinion, I have to argue against it.
Was the article harsh, even mordant?
Yes, without a doubt.
It also raised some valid questions about the backstory that both the 'player news' and NYT articles left out. Namely, that BoB had indeed claimed in the past that their goal was complete galactic domination is interesting considering that they now admit that is impossible... without ever admitting defeat. Even then, when they suffered a fairly notable defeat, their response, via ISD, was literally that they could not be stopped unless they chose to stop.
That's not anti-BoB. BoB are, of course, elite PvP'ers with an awesome alliance war machine at their back. Stating that their rhetoric sometimes gets away from them doesn't take away from the very real skill and talent that BoB possesses.
It's also not anti-CCP to point out that by posting uncritical alliance propaganda in the player news section, they end up, by effect even if not by design, taking BoB's side in a propaganda slinging contest.
I doubt there even would have been an article, in the first place, if Magnus Balteus had titled his article something like "BoB initiates their 'Max Campaign'". But the title, plus the content, was simply too much.
Even now, someone logging in and just casually browsing the news items would only see:
Quote:
The Max Age Has Begun
reported by: ISD Magnus Balteus | 2008.07.10 22:48:42
Band of Brothers has initiated an operation they call ôMaximum Damageö, or the ôMax Ageö for short. In the first of four planned deployments, Shrike has led the first team of over 350 capital ships and 600 support ships into a staging area in Saranen, Lonetrek.
Magnus took what he himself said was BoB's name for the campaign, "Max Age", and then uncritically used that as his title, as if it wasn't just BoB's name for it, but that they were correct and it was, indeed, a new Age for EVE that was totally directed by and due to BoB, and BoB alone. Even putting "Max Age" in quotes in the title would have worked to separate the ISD article (and thus, CCP's tacit endorsement by posting it), and BoB's claims.
We would've definitely published the same article if the player news section treated us to an article titled "The Goon Age Has Begun" and provided claims from Goon leadership about how they were about to dine in NOL.
So, to get back to your last point, was the article too harsh on BoB and/or CCP?
I honestly don't think so. I think it provided valid criticism on CCP's inclusion of alliance propaganda in the player news section, the history and use of BoB's rhetoric and why CCP shouldn't allow something that is essentially one-sided propaganda to be posted as 'required reading' to each and every single player who logs in.
Reasonable people can disagree on that point, of course. One man's rousing verbal sparring is anther's rhetorical bar brawl.
I think, however, that we have a very good mechanism to prevent any institutional bias. Anybody who can write passingly well is always able to submit their counter arguments. Even now, if anybody wants to argue that it's perfectly proper for CCP to publish pro-BoB propaganda, we'll publish it. Of course, we may have a counter-rebuttal, but that's only fair.
For obvious reasons, we wouldn't publish anything in our own 'zine that amounted to tinfoil hattist accusations that we were engaging in propaganda for the northern powers. That's not a rebuttal, that's a smear.
But the offer is still open. Anybody in this thread, or reading it, or thinking about its subject is invited to write a rebuttal and earn 20 mil ISK per page for it.
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Hohohoho, Mister Finn, youÆre going to be Mister Finnagain! Comeday morm and, O, youÆre vine! SenddayÆs eve and, ah, youÆre vinegar! Hahahaha, Mister |
FinnAgain Zero
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Posted - 2008.07.19 01:15:00 -
[43]
Oh, and, sorry for the double post, but:
Originally by: Kuar Z'thain
On-topic: You can't count on anything to be unbiased and honestly, writing your own article would be the best way. I also think the ET's staff response of "STFU and let's see you do better" may be a good response, but definitely not the right way to say it.
It really isn't "STFU and let's see you do better."
If I had to put it in a quote, it'd be:
"We're doing this for fun, and people shouldn't take it too seriously. If you like it, great. If you don't, that's too bad, but we're not going to change what we're doing because a few people get angry at us. This is a hobby, not our job.
If all you have is criticism, there really isn't anything to be done as we're not going to go back and censor a previous issue to remove a writer's opinion simply because some readers found it offensive.
We will, however, provide you a public forum, on our bandwidth, so that you can write a rebuttal. And we'll even pay you 20 mil ISK per page to do it. But just berating us won't do any good. We're not idiots, we've already looked at the situation, and the only offer we'll make is that we'll provide a forum, on our dime, for dissenting viewpoints."
Heck, we'd be happy to interview any and all BoB FC's/leaders/what-have-you who'd like to defend claims that Max is unstoppable barring BoB's consent, that it defines the current era of EVE, or even if they just want to chew the fat a bit and tell the gaming community a bit more about the nature of Max.
Feel free to forward the offer along. If they email editor.evetribune@gmail.com, we can schedule something.
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Hohohoho, Mister Finn, youÆre going to be Mister Finnagain! Comeday morm and, O, youÆre vine! SenddayÆs eve and, ah, youÆre vinegar! Hahahaha, Mister |
John Holt
Caldari
Tovil-Toba's Elite Guard
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Posted - 2008.07.19 05:12:00 -
[44]
This has become much more than I ever intended when I made the opening post. I would argue that my original points still stands. The Tribune representative says...
Quote:
Even putting "Max Age" in quotes in the title would have worked to separate the ISD article (and thus, CCP's tacit endorsement by posting it), and BoB's claims.
The fact is he still doesn't understand the unique place that ISD IC holds. CCP does not post their articles; they post their own articles. They have their own oversight, and chose their own subjects for their articles. When opinions are given they represent the opinion of the reporter, not of CCP.
Its true that CCP provides guidelines for ISD IC, but these guidelines pertain to conduct, not to a point of view about certain alliances and such things.
The second main point of the opening post still stands as well. Bob is not Bob because CCP favors it or endorses it. Bob |