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Amandin Adouin
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Posted - 2008.07.17 15:22:00 -
[1]
Against many peoples' advice, I've decided to go with the Matari line of ships for missions. I'm not a power player, and I really just want to like the ships I fly, regardless of whether of not a different ship can do it faster.
That said, right now I have a Rupture. I'm aiming to fly a Maelstrom eventually, so it's shield tanking for me. For the BC, should I get a Cyclone or shield tank a Hurricane?
Also, the 120mil ISK price of the Maelstrom is a bit scary.
How long do you guys think it will take me to earn that running missions in a BC? Should I get a cheaper BS first? Either the Typhoon or a different race's cheap BS?
Like I said the Mael is the one I really want to fly, but I'm not sure how long it's going to take me to earn that much ISK.
Thanks
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Daftex Muleson
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.17 15:28:00 -
[2]
Cyclone for shield tank...large shield booster and a shield boost amp plus an invulnerability field. Great ship for ratting.
The real earner missions are lvl 4 so for those you'll need to get into a BS. I'd probably go with the phoon (which I have for lvl 4's) although you're looking at armour tanking for a mission phoon really. If you wanna stick with shields then you may want to cross train to get into a Raven
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Bager Gray
Gallente
COBRA INC
Private Military Contractors
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Posted - 2008.07.17 15:30:00 -
[3]
I would say to buy the typhoon for now. By the time you have the skill to use the mael in a effective way, you will have the isk to buy it.
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Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.07.17 15:30:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Amandin Adouin
Against many peoples' advice, I've decided to go with the Matari line of ships for missions. I'm not a power player, and I really just want to like the ships I fly, regardless of whether of not a different ship can do it faster.
That said, right now I have a Rupture. I'm aiming to fly a Maelstrom eventually, so it's shield tanking for me. For the BC, should I get a Cyclone or shield tank a Hurricane?
Also, the 120mil ISK price of the Maelstrom is a bit scary.
How long do you guys think it will take me to earn that running missions in a BC? Should I get a cheaper BS first? Either the Typhoon or a different race's cheap BS?
Like I said the Mael is the one I really want to fly, but I'm not sure how long it's going to take me to earn that much ISK.
Thanks
You should not get a Tempest or Phoon first for PVE. I'd consider a Raven tbh as your first BS, although that's not the answer you want to hear, haha. The missile skills will help your future Phoon, and the shield skills will help your future Maelstrom, and it's a better mission ship overall than either. For BC, I'd probably go with the cane, as the T1 BC's in general are on the weaker side. With level 3 missions, especially if you salvage the good ones, it won't take you terribly long to earn enough for a Raven.
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Bager Gray
Gallente
COBRA INC
Private Military Contractors
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Posted - 2008.07.17 15:34:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Daftex Muleson
Cyclone for shield tank...large shield booster and a shield boost amp plus an invulnerability field. Great ship for ratting.
The real earner missions are lvl 4 so for those you'll need to get into a BS. I'd probably go with the phoon (which I have for lvl 4's) although you're looking at armour tanking for a mission phoon really. If you wanna stick with shields then you may want to cross train to get into a Raven
Raven is a good mission boat, and if you train for a phoon and a mael you will have most of the skills.
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Amandine Andoiun
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.17 15:35:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Boz Well
You should not get a Tempest or Phoon first for PVE. I'd consider a Raven tbh as your first BS, although that's not the answer you want to hear, haha. The missile skills will help your future Phoon, and the shield skills will help your future Maelstrom, and it's a better mission ship overall than either. For BC, I'd probably go with the cane, as the T1 BC's in general are on the weaker side. With level 3 missions, especially if you salvage the good ones, it won't take you terribly long to earn enough for a Raven.
Even the Raven goes for 90 mil ISK. I'm kind of looking at the first Tier BS's that goes for around 50 mil - if I have to get a different BS for a while that is.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.17 15:38:00 -
[7]
You may have to run.. a few missions in your cane to get the mael, but that's what it's all about right? You're doing missions for fun, so what's the biggie? 
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Amandine Andoiun
Gallente
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Posted - 2008.07.17 15:41:00 -
[8]
Originally by: AstroPhobic
You may have to run.. a few missions in your cane to get the mael, but that's what it's all about right? You're doing missions for fun, so what's the biggie?
Well the difference between 90 mil ISK and 120 mil ISK isn't that big... so I was thinking I could just for the Mael in that case. If I was actually getting a first tier, 50 mil ISK one, it would make sense for me. But if it costs 90 mil ISK, why not just run a few more missions for the Mael?
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Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.07.17 15:41:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Boz Well on 17/07/2008 15:43:46
Originally by: Amandine Andoiun
Originally by: Boz Well
You should not get a Tempest or Phoon first for PVE. I'd consider a Raven tbh as your first BS, although that's not the answer you want to hear, haha. The missile skills will help your future Phoon, and the shield skills will help your future Maelstrom, and it's a better mission ship overall than either. For BC, I'd probably go with the cane, as the T1 BC's in general are on the weaker side. With level 3 missions, especially if you salvage the good ones, it won't take you terribly long to earn enough for a Raven.
Even the Raven goes for 90 mil ISK. I'm kind of looking at the first Tier BS's that goes for around 50 mil - if I have to get a different BS for a while that is.
If you really want a cheap BS, then consider the Dominix. It'll rely on armor tanking and drone skills, and you'll need those for Matar anyways. Basically, instead of relying on what's cheap now, I would suggest looking at what you want to cross train to in the long run. The Dominix is certainly not a bad ship, as it's arguably the most versatile BS and will grow with you as your skills improve (can start with a heavy tank setup and move to a gank/sentry setup as your SP increases). However, if you don't care for drones, then you won't care for the dominix. Same goes for the Raven really, in that if you aren't a fan of missiles, then it's not the ship for you. IMO you want to get a ship that you enjoy flying if you're going to be investing SP into it. That said, the Raven and Dominix are pretty much the easiest of all the ships for a new player to hop into and go straight to level 4 missions (and thus gain a nice ISK income).
Even with top notch skills, the phoon is a little underwhelming in PVE (PVP is a bit different). The Tempest is crap atm, and the Maelstrom gets beaten by a Raven in terms of efficiency. I would stay away from Matar BS for the moment, and hope that they get some CCP attention (specifically, large projectiles need that attention).
Edit: And if you really want a Maelstrom, I'd suggest just saving up for it. There aren't any good options along the way if you insist on staying Matar, and if your goal is solely to earn enough cash to buy a Maelstrom, then it's not worth cross-training for a cheap BS. If your goal is to get a ship that's efficient and newb-friendly for level 4 missions, then I'd go with what I said above and get a Raven or a Dominix.
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Amandin Adouin
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Posted - 2008.07.17 15:46:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Boz Well
Even with top notch skills, the phoon is a little underwhelming in PVE (PVP is a bit different). The Tempest is crap atm, and the Maelstrom gets beaten by a Raven in terms of efficiency. I would stay away from Matar BS for the moment, and hope that they get some CCP attention (specifically, large projectiles need that attention).
I know that the Matari BS's suck. 
I actually like Drones alot, many the Domi is a good first tier BS for me to use for awhile. I was hoping to use the Geddon if I had to go this route though.
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Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.07.17 15:48:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Boz Well on 17/07/2008 15:51:53
Originally by: Amandin Adouin
Originally by: Boz Well
Even with top notch skills, the phoon is a little underwhelming in PVE (PVP is a bit different). The Tempest is crap atm, and the Maelstrom gets beaten by a Raven in terms of efficiency. I would stay away from Matar BS for the moment, and hope that they get some CCP attention (specifically, large projectiles need that attention).
I know that the Matari BS's suck.
I actually like Drones alot, many the Domi is a good first tier BS for me to use for awhile. I was hoping to use the Geddon if I had to go this route though.
I don't find the Geddon a particularly great PVE ship (some, with great drone skills, may disagree), and especially not if you're a low SP char. If you want an Amarr ship that works well with low SP, get the Apoc. But again, if your sole purpose is to earn enough cash to buy a Maelstrom, it's not worth cross training. You'd be better off using those SP to improve the ship you want to fly long-term, rather than trying to save a small sum like 30 million in the short term.
Edit: Yeah, that works. Mael can work for PVE. I'd look up some of Liang's setups for that, and adjust those to fit your SP. It can field a nice tank, and so you should be safe on missions. The downside is you have to use large artillery, which is just laughably bad. AC's could possibly work once you get t2, if you fit falloff rigs, but considering how the Maelstrom handles, you'll probably find them more frustrating than useful.
Still, if you're new, it doesn't hurt to try various things and figure out what you prefer. Even if you change later, a lot of the skills you train for the Matar BS will come in handy for other ships.
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.17 15:49:00 -
[12]
In short, if you want to stop for a "midway" ship, the only "real" choice is the dominix. Otherwise, stick it out until you get the mael.
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Amandin Adouin
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Posted - 2008.07.17 16:04:00 -
[13]
Great, so I'm going to just save up for my Maelstrom.
One more thing... Boz mentioned that the Hurricane would be better than the Cyclone for my BC ship. But I'm going to shield tank. Is the Cane okay to shield tank?
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Hanso Sparxx
We The People
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Posted - 2008.07.17 16:53:00 -
[14]
For level 3's, I have used a boosted Cyclone and a Passive 'Cane... I find that the Hurricane was much better in it's tank and it's DPS. I've even used the Passive 'Cane setup in 0.0 for belt ratting with excellent success.
I can't remember the fit off the top of my head as I've converted my 'cane to a dual repping pvp ship.. but if you can search this forum or Battleclinic for "Passive Cane", you should find the fit easily.
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Joe Starbreaker
AnTi.
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2008.07.17 17:04:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Amandin Adouin
Great, so I'm going to just save up for my Maelstrom.
One more thing... Boz mentioned that the Hurricane would be better than the Cyclone for my BC ship. But I'm going to shield tank. Is the Cane okay to shield tank?
Matari ships take a lot of skills to fly all of them well, because some are shield tankers and some are armor tankers. You might want to focus on just one type of tanking. Focusing on shield tanking, you'd fly the Stabber, the Cyclone, and the Maelstrom. Focusing on armor tanking suggests the Rupture, Hurricane, and Typhoon/Tempest. Trying to fly all of these ships is going to require a lot of support skill training.
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Gimpb
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Posted - 2008.07.17 17:28:00 -
[16]
What's so bad about using a phoon as a stepping stone? One could fit cruises and ACs with moderate skills and probably do just fine on it. It wouldn't have all the missile punch of a raven but it has better drones and would mow down the small stuff.
It doesn't make a ton of sense to spend a couple weeks cross training to another race's BS if he just wants to fly the mael. Spending that training time on skills that make matari function better would be a better investment.
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Transmaniacon
Minmatar
Strike-Force-Alpha
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Posted - 2008.07.17 17:34:00 -
[17]
I used the cyclone for lvl 3s (my second time), and with its shield boosting bonus, you can permarun a medium shield booster and still fit2 damage mods. It tanks any lvl 3 mission I have run, and deals out about 320 DPS. The hurricane will deal more damage, but only with a passive tank because armor tanking it will not allow damage mods (an effective armor tank).
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Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.07.17 17:37:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gimpb
What's so bad about using a phoon as a stepping stone? One could fit cruises and ACs with moderate skills and probably do just fine on it. It wouldn't have all the missile punch of a raven but it has better drones and would mow down the small stuff.
It doesn't make a ton of sense to spend a couple weeks cross training to another race's BS if he just wants to fly the mael. Spending that training time on skills that make matari function better would be a better investment.
Because his entire goal was to save a piddly 30 million before getting his Maelstrom, and the Phoon is one of the most skill intensive ships out there. For one, fitting cruise + AC is mixing long and short range weapons, which is a mistake. Second, he won't have t2 AC, and without barrage his range will be crap. Third, the phoon is very difficult to fit, and most mission setups end up fitting faction gear just to get a full rack of weapons and a half-arsed tank. And he's going to use that ship to learn level 4 missions, and use it only because he wants to save 30 million before buying a Maelstrom? You really think that makes sense? Lol.
I guess he could throw a few cruise missiles on there and tank it up, but the DPS will be pretty poor and half of it will be only for short-range enemies. If he wants a missile boat, I'd just train for a Raven, heh. Not to mention he wants to shield tank his ship, and the Phoon is not going to do well shield tanked.
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RuriHoshino
Minmatar
Stimulus
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Posted - 2008.07.17 18:00:00 -
[19]
Phoon with cruise and heavy drones does just fine. It's not as efficient as a Raven, but really nothing else is anyway. Tanks exactly like a Domi with 2x LARs, 4 hardeners and a CPR, 3x Cap Recharger IIs and 3x CCCs. Utility highs can go for salvaging, remote reps for drones, smartbombs, whatever you feel like. Getting it all to run does take good engineering skills, but you'll want those anyway. The Phoon was incredibly frustrating for me when I first started flying it, but it does grow on you and it will make you money faster than a Mael / Pest.
Honestly, don't plan to just use one kind of tanking when you fly Matari. We get some of the best frigates and arguably the best cruiser class ships in space, but the schizo slot layout means you need to be ready to either shield or armour tank with T2 gear if you want to get the most out of them.
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Amandin Adouin
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Posted - 2008.07.17 18:30:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Boz Well
Because his entire goal was to save a piddly 30 million before getting his Maelstrom, and the Phoon is one of the most skill intensive ships out there. For one, fitting cruise + AC is mixing long and short range weapons, which is a mistake. Second, he won't have t2 AC, and without barrage his range will be crap. Third, the phoon is very difficult to fit, and most mission setups end up fitting faction gear just to get a full rack of weapons and a half-arsed tank. And he's going to use that ship to learn level 4 missions, and use it only because he wants to save 30 million before buying a Maelstrom? You really think that makes sense? Lol.
I guess he could throw a few cruise missiles on there and tank it up, but the DPS will be pretty poor and half of it will be only for short-range enemies. If he wants a missile boat, I'd just train for a Raven, heh. Not to mention he wants to shield tank his ship, and the Phoon is not going to do well shield tanked.
I don't ususally do this, but the multiple uses of "his/he" just really gave me a good laugh.
Don't assume all Eve players are guys! 
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AstroPhobic
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.17 18:35:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Amandin Adouin
I don't ususally do this, but the multiple uses of "his/he" just really gave me a good laugh.
Don't assume all Eve players are guys!
I thought it was the other way around, always assume all eve players are guys until proven otherwise. 
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Norwood Franskly
Minmatar
Fleet of the Damned
Dark Trinity Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.18 06:17:00 -
[22]
If your a casual mission runner like me I went straight from doing level 3's in a hurricane to doing level 4's in a Sleipnir (took me about a year to get the standings for level 4 missions).
Training straight to a command ship is certainly an option as Minmatar battleships do suck and the sleipnir is an excellent shield tanker and by training up to Sleipnir you'll unlock HACS which are great for pvp as well.
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Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.07.18 06:20:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Amandin Adouin
Originally by: Boz Well
Because his entire goal was to save a piddly 30 million before getting his Maelstrom, and the Phoon is one of the most skill intensive ships out there. For one, fitting cruise + AC is mixing long and short range weapons, which is a mistake. Second, he won't have t2 AC, and without barrage his range will be crap. Third, the phoon is very difficult to fit, and most mission setups end up fitting faction gear just to get a full rack of weapons and a half-arsed tank. And he's going to use that ship to learn level 4 missions, and use it only because he wants to save 30 million before buying a Maelstrom? You really think that makes sense? Lol.
I guess he could throw a few cruise missiles on there and tank it up, but the DPS will be pretty poor and half of it will be only for short-range enemies. If he wants a missile boat, I'd just train for a Raven, heh. Not to mention he wants to shield tank his ship, and the Phoon is not going to do well shield tanked.
I don't ususally do this, but the multiple uses of "his/he" just really gave me a good laugh.
Don't assume all Eve players are guys!
Pics or it didn't happen.
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Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation
Circle-Of-Two
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Posted - 2008.07.18 07:16:00 -
[24]
I progressed Rupture - Hurricane - Maelstrom. I rushed my jump into Hurricane somewhat, so harder lvl3s were tricky, but those were just my skills, Cyclone was no better. Plus, cyclone is more skill intensive at that point - missiles and medium drones are significant part of your DPS, its a mini-phoon, so to say.
Shieldtank Hurricane with artilleries, then switch to Maelstrom.
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Redesign local/scanner feature - make the place huge, dark and scary again! |
Anubis Xian
Reavers
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Posted - 2008.07.18 09:35:00 -
[25]
It goes something like this:
Rifter -> Stabby -> Hurricane -> Geddon/Apoc/Abaddon -> Archon/Revelation -> Aeon -> Avatar -> Bhaalgorn -> Cake -> Pie
Originally by: CCP Oveur
The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal.
I'm the Juggernaut, *****! |
Shinta Kobi
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.18 13:12:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Shinta Kobi on 18/07/2008 13:12:22
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
I progressed Rupture - Hurricane - Maelstrom. I rushed my jump into Hurricane somewhat, so harder lvl3s were tricky, but those were just my skills, Cyclone was no better. Plus, cyclone is more skill intensive at that point - missiles and medium drones are significant part of your DPS, its a mini-phoon, so to say.
Shieldtank Hurricane with artilleries, then switch to Maelstrom.
I flew a Cyclone for a month before I realized that about them, the skill requirements for effective operation I mean(active shield tanking). Being an armor tank originally, I switched to a 'Cane and wow; dps, tank, and overall operation seemed to work above expectations. I hear where your coming from. Indeed, 5 gun and 3 missle slots; the Cyclone is a smaller active tank version of the 'Phoon IMO. I think the most fun I had with a T1 ship was the Thrasher though; tough and fast.
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Shinta Kobi
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.07.18 13:22:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Amandin Adouin
Against many peoples' advice, I've decided to go with the Matari line of ships for missions. I'm not a power player, and I really just want to like the ships I fly, regardless of whether of not a different ship can do it faster.
That said, right now I have a Rupture. I'm aiming to fly a Maelstrom eventually, so it's shield tanking for me. For the BC, should I get a Cyclone or shield tank a Hurricane?
Also, the 120mil ISK price of the Maelstrom is a bit scary.
How long do you guys think it will take me to earn that running missions in a BC? Should I get a cheaper BS first? Either the Typhoon or a different race's cheap BS?
Like I said the Mael is the one I really want to fly, but I'm not sure how long it's going to take me to earn that much ISK.
Thanks
Sorry for the double post guys.
If you're looking into Minmatar BC's, go for the Hurricane. As far as going to a BS, Maelstrom for that matter, be sure what you want to do with it. If you're thinking PvP, think again. All you will be is a very expensive target for someone to pop. If you're going for L4 misions, then yeah, it's a great ship. If you want fast, good hitting ships, go for T2's. Rapier, Sabre, etc.
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Norwood Franskly
Minmatar
Fleet of the Damned
Dark Trinity Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.18 16:57:00 -
[28]
Reading this topic and a few others I'm curious what the setup people use on their shield tanked hurricanes are. I've never been a fan of passive tanking and
have stubbornly armor tanked all my hurricanes (pvp and pve) the only shield tanked cane I've ever flown was a corp mates I borrowed to rat in a while ago and was pretty unimpressed it seemed to me like it was out performed by my trusty cyclone setup and the armor tanked hurricane.
Inspired by this topic I whipped out EFT and did some playing around (I know eft is not eve!!!):
The best passive cane I could come up with looked something like this (could probably improve it with mission spec hardners)
[Hurricane, shield]
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Large Shield Extender II
Shield Recharger II
650mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP M
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Thunderbolt Heavy Missile
Core Defence Field Purger I
Core Defence Field Purger I
Core Defence Field Purger I
Hobgoblin II x4
Hammerhead II x1
you can whip off an spr for a gyro but it reduces the tanked damage quite a bit not being an expert on passive tanking no idea if I screwed up the mids and lows there but theoretically this setup tanks 370 dps and puts out 470 at lvl 5 (with my skills it's a somewhat reduced). Which seems fairly decent.
In contrast my current favorite cyclone setup
[Cyclone, mission]
Co-Processor II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Large Shield Booster II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Cap Recharger II
650mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, EMP M
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Assault Missile
Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II, Torrent Assault Missile
Semiconductor Memory Cell I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Capacitor Control Circuit I
Hammerhead II x3
Hobgoblin II x2
tanks 240 sus / 340 reinforced and deals 460 dps at level 5 skills quite similar to the hurricane. Though a hell of a lot more skill intensive just to use and fit the damn thing.
I guess the morale here is that while the hurricane may not be a shied tanker in the traditional sense it still beats the pants of the cyclone at doing it and is much less skill intense. So I say go for it try a passive shield tanked hurricane (not for pvp though). Cyclone has it's uses in the game but a hurricane beats it for mission running. If you don't have or (don't intend to train) level 5 battlecruiser the cane comes out even further ahead as the cyclones tank takes a tanking hit due to the (7.5% per level boost bonus).
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Traderboz
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Posted - 2008.07.18 16:59:00 -
[29]
Can't say I've ever bought a cyclone, and I don't plan to. Love the cane tho.
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Boz Well
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Posted - 2008.07.18 22:12:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Amandin Adouin
Edited by: Amandin Adouin on 18/07/2008 22:09:15
Originally by: Boz Well
Pics or it didn't happen.
lol. Maybe if you buy me dinner first j/k
Originally by: Norwood Franskly
If your a casual mission runner like me I went straight from doing level 3's in a hurricane to doing level 4's in a Sleipnir (took me about a year to get the standings for level 4 missions).
Training straight to a command ship is certainly an option as Minmatar battleships do suck and the sleipnir is an excellent shield tanker and by training up to Sleipnir you'll unlock HACS which are great for pvp as well.
yeah I've thought about that actually. The Sleipnir looks like a great ship. So it can really do Level 4 missions alright? I'm not too worried about using the quickest ship, I just don't want to get blown up 
Sleip will survive level 4's no problem, but it tends to either have range or damage and not both, heh. All in all, battleships are the choice for level 4's, but command ships can work (less efficiently).
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