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Author	Topic
Dinilysia Interregional Market Watch	Posted - 2008.07.20 13:01:00 - [1] Revamp! Ships should have means for self defense besides their main armament - Battleship and upwards: Primary, secondary and tertiary mounts. Cruiser: Primary and secondary mounts Frigate: Primary mount Besides these armament mounts, utility/hardware mounts should be provided for non weaponry euipment and upgrades. Theres no logic in having a battleship pilot rely on a number of other players for self defense under conditions where only one or two smaller craft are attacking. That I have an issue with. Just beause it s an mmorpg, cooperation between players doesnt have to be taken to an absurd level. To a degree,people should be able to cope solo while not being able to immediately get support. A battleship shouldnt be a pushover for one lone tackling frig holding it down indefinately until they can muster reinforcements. No, I didnt get shot down recently ^^ CCP! Give me one of these ffs!
Siberys	Posted - 2008.07.20 13:08:00 - [2] Edited by: Siberys on 20/07/2008 13:08:26 Ummm what? Besides, point defence weapons are so weak they might have a range of a kilometer at most, and they would have less than a third of a second to get that nigh-impossible missile hit, so anti-missile weps are a no-no. Frigates? Meet smartbombs, drones, and your own frigate support. If you get tackled by a frigate in lowsec and you're alone, it would be against the battleships role to be able to kill that and any reinforcements it gets, and besides, the point of eVE is that every ship has a role, I.E. no omnipotent frak trains that are the bane of all ships of equal size or smaller. So it would be cool, but unbalanced.
Furb Killer Gallente USC Militia	Posted - 2008.07.20 13:13:00 - [3] Edited by: Furb Killer on 20/07/2008 13:13:22 Drones, energy neutralizers, stasis webifier, clue. Edit: for clarification, you should get all 4
justsometrader	Posted - 2008.07.20 13:20:00 - [4] Edited by: justsometrader on 20/07/2008 13:20:52 Originally by: Dinilysia Revamp! Theres no logic in having a battleship pilot rely on a number of other players for self defense under conditions where only one or two smaller craft are attacking. That I have an issue with. well I guess thats the reason, why nowadays every aircraft carrier (talking about the real world now) swims out there with a huge support fleet...what do you think some smaller ships (submarines for example) would do with a lonely carrier without support?...getting a clue I hope
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.20 13:23:00 - [5] I do not want my retribution to become useless.
Dinilysia Interregional Market Watch	Posted - 2008.07.20 13:43:00 - [6] Originally by: Siberys ... Thing is with this role stuff that it makes the game one dimensional. It s like you have to have one player in a big ship to fire the big gun, another player in a medium ship to fire the medium gun, and a third player in a small ship to fire the small gun. Thats just immersionbreaking and counter intuitive in so many ways that it makes me cringe. Why would it make the game inbalanced? You dont fly one frig against a battleship, not even two or three. Try four or five frigs and you might just be the lucky one that survives and manages to hold it down until your own firepower arrives from nearby to finish it off. Point is there should be no 'whizzing around under the guns' webbing and scrambling like it is now, leaving you totally and royally screwed against smaller craft should you stick your nose out the door without any mates around that can help you out in an instant. Cooperation and effort should to higher degree be forced on the attacker than on the defender. work from there to create balance.
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.20 14:00:00 - [7] Originally by: Dinilysia Originally by: Siberys ... Thing is with this role stuff that it makes the game one dimensional. It s like you have to have one player in a big ship to fire the big gun, another player in a medium ship to fire the medium gun, and a third player in a small ship to fire the small gun. Thats just immersionbreaking and counter intuitive in so many ways that it makes me cringe. Why would it make the game inbalanced? You dont fly one frig against a battleship, not even two or three. Try four or five frigs and you might just be the lucky one that survives and manages to hold it down until your own firepower arrives from nearby to finish it off. Point is there should be no 'whizzing around under the guns' webbing and scrambling like it is now, leaving you totally and royally screwed against smaller craft should you stick your nose out the door without any mates around that can help you out in an instant. Cooperation and effort should to higher degree be forced on the attacker than on the defender. work from there to create balance. You have never flown a pulse apoc have you?
Siberys	Posted - 2008.07.20 14:13:00 - [8] What you propose is that either: A. We have omnipotent raep boats flying all over the place, able to screw anyone who doesn't spend excessive ammounts of money. B. You're complaining because you can't lead with your gun turrets and one shot anything that is a threat to you. Battleships in WWII needed destroyers to keep planes from torpedoing their sorry asses out of the water, and in EVE the concept is essentially the same, except that out battleships can launch little things called gasp drones, that shoot down the frigates for you. So use drones, all BS's have drone space enough to fit a few lights drones, so stop complaining. In other words: Congradulations, you have reached the rank of lazytard second class! Line up here for your free T shirt and cat ears!
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum TRUST Coalition	Posted - 2008.07.20 14:17:00 - [9] Originally by: Dinilysia Thing is with this role stuff that it makes the game one dimensional. It s like you have to have one player in a big ship to fire the big gun, another player in a medium ship to fire the medium gun, and a third player in a small ship to fire the small gun. Well, you don't have to fit large guns on your battleship. You could fit 8 large, one medium and one small if you really wanted. It's a compromise between your offensive power versus large ships, and your offensive power versus smaller ships. Most setups maximise their power against targets they can hit, with the assumption that the turrets will not be used against smaller targets. Though you are free to deviate from this if you want. Light and medium drones will completely eat any frigate they can catch. Heavy neutralisers reach beyond T2 warp disruptor range, and will ensure that said drones can catch any frigate. And if the frigate is crazy enough to get within 13km, webs will do the same thing. Sensor dampeners can also be used to bring your typical frigate's lock range close to or within 13km, such that damps in combination with a web can deter pretty much any frigate you can't otherwise shut down. Anyway, think about your proposal. If it went through, there wouldn't be a downside to battleships as they could counter any size of ship successfully while doing the greatest subcapital damage in the game. That would be one dimensional. Now, you need to cover several bases, which is great because you get to choose where to divide your limited resources, and you get a game of rock-paper-scissors, rather than rock-scissor-scissors.
EVIL SYNNs Minmatar dearg doom	Posted - 2008.07.20 14:38:00 - [10] the OP is right, the navies of the world send out their carriers/battleships(well maybe not any more) out solo.

Basha Rylshald	Posted - 2008.07.20 14:40:00 - [11] Originally by: Dinilysia Revamp! Ships should have means for self defense besides their main armament - Battleship and upwards: Primary, secondary and tertiary mounts. Cruiser: Primary and secondary mounts Frigate: Primary mount Besides these armament mounts, utility/hardware mounts should be provided for non weaponry euipment and upgrades. Theres no logic in having a battleship pilot rely on a number of other players for self defense under conditions where only one or two smaller craft are attacking. That I have an issue with. Just beause it s an mmorpg, cooperation between players doesnt have to be taken to an absurd level. To a degree,people should be able to cope solo while not being able to immediately get support. A battleship shouldnt be a pushover for one lone tackling frig holding it down indefinately until they can muster reinforcements. No, I didnt get shot down recently ^^ CCP! Give me one of these ffs! FEATURES AND IDEAS section is that way -->
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.20 14:55:00 - [12] Battlecruisers and Battleships should both be able to effectively engage more than one smaller class target simultaneously. I like the idea that my battleship could have 16 weapon slots: 5 large turrets, 3 large launchers, 5 medium turrets, and 3 medium launchers. I do not think a ship should fit more than one class lower than its native weapon size. BSes with L and M, caps with XL and L, and BC/Cruiser with M and S. Frigs/Dessies will of course retain S only. Drone use should be toned back a bit till only droneboats or special hybrids really use them. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Blackened Soul	Posted - 2008.07.20 15:09:00 - [13] Originally by: justsometrader well I guess thats the reason, why nowadays every aircraft carrier (talking about the real world now) swims out there with a huge support fleet...what do you think some smaller ships (submarines for example) would do with a lonely carrier without support?...getting a clue I hope course the likes of the nimitz class carriers are designed and equipped such that they dont NEED thier support fleet, they can turn on the power and leave the fleet behind, get to thier destination, start, fight and finish a small war then turn round and buggeroffski sharpish. not really a fair comparison, do you want a mothership being that powerful? anyway, the op was talking about BATTLESHIPS, which irl are pretty much buggered if caught out on their own.
Seleucid Secundus	Posted - 2008.07.20 15:15:00 - [14] Originally by: EVIL SYNNs the OP is right, the navies of the world send out their carriers/battleships(well maybe not any more) out solo. no, but when u look at the WWII battleships, they have alot more then their main 3-4 turrets. They have many smaller guns, along with AA. They dont send them out solo because it still cant defend it self against an entire fleet .
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.07.20 15:16:00 - [15] Idea will cause lag. Idea will cause solopwnmobiles. Idea will cause slight lowering of IQ if considered for too long. - DesuSigs
Spurty Caldari Cthulhu seaworm cult	Posted - 2008.07.20 15:30:00 - [16] eve is an mmo. Its not a mistake that to be effective, you need many people in different roles. solo players are boned for being solo and that fact, if changed breaks the need for 'wingmen' to succeed. As it is, there are drones to help to some degree, but the are not as effective as a real live human (well thats debatable, there are plenty of plonkers you can have in your gang that don't lift a finger or are afk). I understand your point and were the game a single player game, would endorse it, but I know how the game works, so listen to what people are telling you. They are correct, not in eve and no thanks as well. -- A guy walks into the psychiatrist wearing only clingfilm for shorts. The shrink says, "Well, I can clearly see you're nuts."
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2008.07.20 15:40:00 - [17] Originally by: Spurty eve is an mmo. Its not a mistake that to be effective, you need many people in different roles. solo players are boned for being solo and that fact, if changed breaks the need for 'wingmen' to succeed. As it is, there are drones to help to some degree, but the are not as effective as a real live human (well thats debatable, there are plenty of plonkers you can have in your gang that don't lift a finger or are afk). I understand your point and were the game a single player game, would endorse it, but I know how the game works, so listen to what people are telling you. They are correct, not in eve and no thanks as well. This is pretty much it. Realistically, I would think big ships would have some variety of weapons, not just weapons for use against the same size ship. They'd probably have a lot more than 6-8 guns total. But this isn't a strategy game or a spaceship sim, it's an MMORPG, and along with that comes certain gameplay requirements. Keep in mind, you can always fit smaller guns, and drones are also good for defense. In short, I agree that it's not really realistic, but gameplay pretty much demands that it works the way it works now.
Zinras Caldari Order of draugr	Posted - 2008.07.20 15:45:00 - [18] Originally by: Seleucid Secundus Originally by: EVIL SYNNs the OP is right, the navies of the world send out their carriers/battleships(well maybe not any more) out solo. no, but when u look at the WWII battleships, they have alot more then their main 3-4 turrets. They have many smaller guns, along with AA. They dont send them out solo because it still cant defend it self against an entire fleet . This is solved via technological progress. Why put 20 guns on a ship if 5 can do it just as well? Also, game balance and a Massively Multiplayer Online game are good reasons for not having a "lol I haz a Death Star". Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal Originally by: Jenny Spitfire That si a fact comming out from my bran.
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.20 16:25:00 - [19] There seems to be a misconception regarding what is being discussed here. A BS for example being able to fit two classes of weapons and still be effective overall is not the same as asking for one ship to solo a fleet. And increasing solo viability is not contrary to MMO 'Rules'. I don't view solo as some kind of god complex, nor do I see it as some kind of anti social thing, and I certainly don't think soloing is against the MMO 'Group Mandate'. You still have to invest more to get more, you still need more people to control and do more. Allow people to solo effectively, what could it possibly do to your gang that goes against what an MMO 'Is'? Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Zinras Caldari Order of draugr	Posted - 2008.07.20 16:51:00 - [20] Originally by: Anubis Xian There seems to be a misconception regarding what is being discussed here. A BS for example being able to fit two classes of weapons and still be effective overall is not the same as asking for one ship to solo a fleet. And increasing solo viability is not contrary to MMO 'Rules'. I don't view solo as some kind of god complex, nor do I see it as some kind of anti social thing, and I certainly don't think soloing is against the MMO 'Group Mandate'. You still have to invest more to get more, you still need more people to control and do more. Allow people to solo effectively, what could it possibly do to your gang that goes against what an MMO 'Is'? A BS can fit two classes of weapons if you like it to. Most have both missile and turret slots and nothing prevents you from mixing it up as you like. Likewise, you can put medium and small turrets and such on it as well. Most also have at least some sort of drone space, usually enough for 5 T2 mediums, so I don't see what the issue with soloing is. EVE is specifically designed for a well rounded group = win, and as such every ship won't get a bonus to every weapon. You can fit turrets on a Raven but don't cry when someone fiting missiles on it performs better. Taking ships out of their intended roles is like having an amphibious car: It can both sail and drive but don't expect it to overtake a Ferrari on land or a speedboat on sea. Originally by: CCP Greyscale moderated - mother abuse - Mitnal Originally by: Jenny Spitfire That si a fact comming out from my bran.

Sinulan Kahn Gallente Cloak and Daggers HUZZAH FEDERATION	Posted - 2008.07.20 16:55:00 - [21] I think you arent really looking at the modules and ship systems properly. Firstly, their are differences between RL and EVE(duh) like the fact that you cant suck the power from a battleships nuclear powercore, you cant throw a blue lasso around an enemy ship that reduces its speed by 90%, there is no way to warp back to port and consequently no need for a weapon system that disallows that, and finally, the last time we tried to cloak a ship here on earth i think the crew ended being fused to the metal in the bulkheads(at least thats what my Enquirer told me;)). Basically, we do already have defensive systems onboard our ships. Hell, we even have Anti-Missile Defenses, in the form of Defender munitions. These defensive systems are more centered around the EVE game mechanics. Also, any Battleship in Eve can mount smaller size weaponry and decimate any smaller fleet it comes across, by virtue of another system that has no analogue in the real world, active armor/shield tanking. How many small ships would it take to chew through a BS that is fit with a massive tank, anti-frig modules, and medium guns? Add on some medium or even better a ton of light drones, and then ask yourself, how many frigs would it take to kill that thing? A battleship that kits itself out to kill frigs, is pretty damn good at it. A battleship that kits itself out to kill other battleships and frigates *at the same time* is probably not that great at either.
Hannobaal Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2008.07.20 17:02:00 - [22] Originally by: Dinilysia Originally by: Siberys ... Thing is with this role stuff that it makes the game one dimensional. It s like you have to have one player in a big ship to fire the big gun, another player in a medium ship to fire the medium gun, and a third player in a small ship to fire the small gun. Thats just immersionbreaking and counter intuitive in so many ways that it makes me cringe. Why would it make the game inbalanced? You dont fly one frig against a battleship, not even two or three. Try four or five frigs and you might just be the lucky one that survives and manages to hold it down until your own firepower arrives from nearby to finish it off. Point is there should be no 'whizzing around under the guns' webbing and scrambling like it is now, leaving you totally and royally screwed against smaller craft should you stick your nose out the door without any mates around that can help you out in an instant. Cooperation and effort should to higher degree be forced on the attacker than on the defender. work from there to create balance. Not only is it the things you're asking for that are immersion breaking and unrealistic (in real life naval combat at sea, bigger ships are extremely vulnerable without escort), but in fact the things you are asking for are allready in the game. Most lone frigate sized tackler can't hold down a properly fitted battleship as it is, and the defenses that battleships have against it have allready been mentioned in this thread. In my opinion it shouldn't be that way and a battleship should require lighter escort to be safe, but that's the way it is. --------------- I'm not as think as you drunk I am.
Ehranavaar	Posted - 2008.07.20 17:09:00 - [23] Originally by: Siberys Edited by: Siberys on 20/07/2008 13:08:26 Ummm what? Besides, point defence weapons are so weak they might have a range of a kilometer at most, and they would have less than a third of a second to get that nigh-impossible missile hit, so anti-missile weps are a no-no. the phalanx is rather shortranged granted but it gets to watch things and set up the shot well before the missile enters the engagement envelope. the british goalkeeper has over twice the engagement range and then the rolling airframe missiles are several times the goalkeepers range. not sure what the seawolf's range is but that british missile can pick a 5" shell off never mind a missile.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2008.07.20 17:27:00 - [24] can I haz solopwnmobile? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
PI Staker	Posted - 2008.07.20 17:31:00 - [25] Perhaps something like this can open a door to other point defense weaponry rather than just relying on defender missiles, Flak guns perhaps?
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.20 17:58:00 - [26] Originally by: Avon can I haz solopwnmobile? Sounds better than 'can I haz blobmobile'. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2008.07.20 18:01:00 - [27] Originally by: Anubis Xian blobmobile Oxymoron. - DesuSigs
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.20 18:06:00 - [28] Right, the simple fact of the matter is that the way ships in Eve work...or don't...promotes blobs, which while that sounds good, all it ends up being is lag. I'd prefer a bunch of solopwnmobiles and little lag over blobwars and dead nodes. Besides... Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!
baltec1 Antares Shipyards Vanguard.	Posted - 2008.07.20 18:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Anubis Xian Right, the simple fact of the matter is that the way ships in Eve work...or don't...promotes blobs, which while that sounds good, all it ends up being is lag. I'd prefer a bunch of solopwnmobiles and little lag over blobwars and dead nodes. Besides... It would still lag because people would still blob up. Only now they will have battleships that will turn my assault frigate inside out in no time. Being too small to hit is the only advantage I have
Anubis Xian Reavers	Posted - 2008.07.20 18:14:00 - [30] Originally by: baltec1 Originally by: Anubis Xian Right, the simple fact of the matter is that the way ships in Eve work...or don't...promotes blobs, which while that sounds good, all it ends up being is lag. I'd prefer a bunch of solopwnmobiles and little lag over blobwars and dead nodes. Besides... It would still lag because people would still blob up. Only now they will have battleships that will turn my assault frigate inside out in no time. Being too small to hit is the only advantage I have Weeelll. If friendly fire was an issue, people would group up less. Introduce line-of-sight FF. Originally by: CCP Oveur The client handles no logic, it is simply a dumb terminal. I'm the Juggernaut, *****!

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