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Stormwind Bloodfeather Minmatar Sogdian Traders Inc	Posted - 2008.07.22 03:22:00 - [61] Edited by: Stormwind Bloodfeather on 22/07/2008 03:23:28 Originally by: CCP Mitnal The point I was attempting to make was that there is active and ongoing moderation of the forums. Elsewhere in this thread there are complaints of a lack of moderation, when we point to examples of moderation it's either not enough or too heavy-handed. I'm sure residents of Crime & Punishment will be happy to add their voice on why they think that channel has become a mini-CAOD and how heavy-handed the moderation is there. Moderation is serious (and subjective) business. It will always be not enough or too much for any individual, my point is that there are dedicated individuals doing it on a daily basis. Special Agent Mitnal never lets the side down The other point to be made was that the perception of CAOD is that it's an unregulated mess. On the contrary you could argue that it's over-moderated and that our presence there is too much as shown by the amount of locked threads. I must be strange to enjoy the moderation process and get to read forums as part of a job and I hugely enjoy interacting in threads. At the heart of the process is making the experience that much more enjoyable, whether it be for a veteran player, new player, missioner, industrialist or POS warrior. We can all help improve the quality of the community with the quality of our posts. One only needs to look in New Citizens to see that the advice on offer there from veterans, devs, GMs and new players alike is highly appreciated. The forums may be better or worse than in the past but ultimately its improvement is in the hands of the people that post on them. I am just as guilty as others for starting /rant threads, and occasionally for posting some pretty flame based comments. Your right, as well as other posters that when it comes down to it, WE are responsible for what gets posted. If I see a thread that's full of fail, and respond stating as much, I've simply fed a troll. If I create one that's a rant (like the one you locked earlier today), then I have myself become a troll. The only thing to do then if I am to be a constructive member of the community, would be to not post or respond in threads or create threads like that. Unfortunatly, some of them just BEG responses, and some SCREAM the need to have their fragile world views ripped apart. While I understand what your saying, the implementation of it isn't so easy. I have always had a low tolerance for stupidity (even my own) and have never been one to hold back the /flame when it was needed. But i'll try to be more helpful and less STFO and GTFO. Storm In EVE, your only friend is your ship and it's weapons. All others are the enemy!
Kruntologist Red Eye .Inc. Rare Faction	Posted - 2008.07.22 03:28:00 - [62] Originally by: Rawr Cristina I don't think there's enough moderators in the world to enforce what you ask. Imagine the 40-page CAOD threads of nothing but snip ? The only actual plague on EVE-O is the endless torrents of meme injected into seemingly every thread. Oh and by the way, Your Stuff, Can I have it? Tie forum warnings/bans to the game account and suddenly people would have to gasp start thinking about what they type..
Stormwind Bloodfeather Minmatar Sogdian Traders Inc	Posted - 2008.07.22 03:29:00 - [63] Originally by: Kruntologist Originally by: Rawr Cristina I don't think there's enough moderators in the world to enforce what you ask. Imagine the 40-page CAOD threads of nothing but snip ? The only actual plague on EVE-O is the endless torrents of meme injected into seemingly every thread. Oh and by the way, Your Stuff, Can I have it? Tie forum warnings/bans to the game account and suddenly people would have to gasp start thinking about what they type.. Now THAT would get peoples attention REAL fast. Storm In EVE, your only friend is your ship and it's weapons. All others are the enemy!
Thommy	Posted - 2008.07.22 06:48:00 - [64] If anything i have learned from the past as an community leader & GM it is that sometimes there is an point where the discussions get out of hand and it needs to be kept in check. If this is not done people will tempt their fate and raise the bickering & flameing abit each time till either the boards are deemed an 'lost cause' alltogether because only a very few still will bother to visit it and at that point each topic would have to be locked or it will lead to an massive warning / banning spree. This is never good, it is not good because it leads to very large frustrations because people think their behaviour didnt fall into an rule breaking point as they where not warned for their first minor offences but then suddenly swiftly banned for the ammount. That kind of things usually lead to 'temporary account creation' which are used solely for trying to damage your reputation, your staff, your volunteers and your company as an whole. On the other hand an constant flow of moderation (the bigger the community the more it is needed) will always show positive aslong as the community managers themselves are also kept in check. Make sure that what they ban for is correct and how they punish is reasonable, which is affcourse an open definition aslong as the rules do not allready cover it and line out what kind of punishment can be expected for it. Rules dont have to stay the same list they should grow or cover multiple angles. If you find one or more rules which didnt cover an certain unwanted aspect then alter the rule so it also covers that instance. Also an text message warning may not work enough as an deterrent for some people. There will always be cases where other tools work far more effective like: - Specific forum ban, banned on one part of the forums and have to earn back the right to post there by good behaviour on the others. - Ingame consequences, 'concord' fine for X million(s) for breaking the federal law of the ICB (intersteller communications board) not sure what the forums are called regarding ingame use. - If needed an upper tier version of an post warning / moderation system. What this means is that an specific person is added on an to watch list so posts of him / her will be highlighted so they can be quickly checked. One upper step could even be the non inclusion of these posts untill an moderator approves the message for inclusion on the forums. There are probably many more tools that can be made for an forum system but the main idea is that just textual warnings may not be enough and the point where someone is locked / banned is allready an step to far. I hope these kind of ideas could potentially help in makeing the forums more friendly. Remember the people behind it do not need to be friendly if the game supports the dark side of people, however the forums are an public place and should be an friendly place for potential, new and older customers alike. Forums are much more an front portal to an game these days then they used to be. Guide \| Patch day
Velius Richter	Posted - 2008.07.22 07:29:00 - [65] "SPECIAL Agent Mitnal never lets the side down" Looking for a raise, eh Agent Mitnal? Maybe it's already on it's way in a few more chapters....
Krows Caldari Resource Reallocators Incorporated	Posted - 2008.07.22 07:39:00 - [66] I absolutely agree, CCP can write anything it wants about how things would be different were we to give into its demands and let it poison the relationship between teacher and student, but its cronies feel that "honesty and responsibility have no cash value and are therefore worthless." First off, that's a lousy sentence. If they had written instead that I have an inveterate hatred of CCP then that quote would have had more validity. As it stands, CCP wants to devalue me as a person. Why it wants that, I don't know, but that's what it wants. Now, I don't mean for that to sound pessimistic, although I plan to advance freedom in countries strangled by tyranny. This is a choice I have made; your choice is up to you. But let me remind you that CCP is an inspiration to counter-productive election-year also-rans everywhere. They panegyrize its crusade to separate people from their roots and cut their bonds to their natural communities and, more importantly, they don't realize that CCP demands that we make a choice. Either we let it terrorize our youngsters or it'll kill the goose bearing the golden egg. This "choice" exemplifies what is commonly known as a "false dichotomy" or "the fallacy of the excluded middle" because it denies other alternatives, such as that CCP's plaints are not our only concern. To state the matter in a few words, I don't see how CCP can build a workable policy around wishful thinking d****d over a morass of confusion (and also, as we'll see below, historical illiteracy), then impose it willy-nilly on a population by force. I'm not saying that it can't possibly be done but rather that CCP's ebullitions obfuscate any attempt to locate responsibility for the consequential decisions of those who have access to the means of power. That concept can be extended, mutatis mutandis, to the way that we can all have daydreams about Happy Fuzzy Purple Bunny Land, where everyone is caring, loving, and nice. Not only will those daydreams not come true, but any rational argument must acknowledge this. Its ethically bankrupt, vulgar hypnopompic insights, naturally, do not. As I have tried to show in this letter, even CCP must concede that this is kind of a touchy subject to some people. As long as you remember that, we may yet be able to plant markers that define the limits of what is revolting and what is not.
Lrd Byron	Posted - 2008.07.22 07:40:00 - [67] I think your perspective is a bit skewed. You have been around a while so of course the forums seem less informative, you know most of the information already. I am new and I find the forums to have all kinds of information, even the whine threads, in which most people at least attempt to back up their complaints with facts.
Kyra Felann Gallente Noctis Fleet Technologies	Posted - 2008.07.22 07:41:00 - [68] Originally by: Crumplecorn See illustration. lol
Malicious Manifesto	Posted - 2008.07.22 14:04:00 - [69] Originally by: Krows I absolutely agree, CCP can write anything it wants about how things would be different were we to give into its demands and let it poison the relationship between teacher and student, but its cronies feel that "honesty and responsibility have no cash value and are therefore worthless." First off, that's a lousy sentence. If they had written instead that I have an inveterate hatred of CCP then that quote would have had more validity. As it stands, CCP wants to devalue me as a person. Why it wants that, I don't know, but that's what it wants. Now, I don't mean for that to sound pessimistic, although I plan to advance freedom in countries strangled by tyranny. This is a choice I have made; your choice is up to you. But let me remind you that CCP is an inspiration to counter-productive election-year also-rans everywhere. They panegyrize its crusade to separate people from their roots and cut their bonds to their natural communities and, more importantly, they don't realize that CCP demands that we make a choice. Either we let it terrorize our youngsters or it'll kill the goose bearing the golden egg. This "choice" exemplifies what is commonly known as a "false dichotomy" or "the fallacy of the excluded middle" because it denies other alternatives, such as that CCP's plaints are not our only concern. To state the matter in a few words, I don't see how CCP can build a workable policy around wishful thinking d****d over a morass of confusion (and also, as we'll see below, historical illiteracy), then impose it willy-nilly on a population by force. I'm not saying that it can't possibly be done but rather that CCP's ebullitions obfuscate any attempt to locate responsibility for the consequential decisions of those who have access to the means of power. That concept can be extended, mutatis mutandis, to the way that we can all have daydreams about Happy Fuzzy Purple Bunny Land, where everyone is caring, loving, and nice. Not only will those daydreams not come true, but any rational argument must acknowledge this. Its ethically bankrupt, vulgar hypnopompic insights, naturally, do not. As I have tried to show in this letter, even CCP must concede that this is kind of a touchy subject to some people. As long as you remember that, we may yet be able to plant markers that define the limits of what is revolting and what is not. WALL OF TEXT...EYES BLEEDING...... I think hes trying to say use the report button more
Tenacha Khan E-Thugz	Posted - 2008.07.22 14:54:00 - [70] Originally by: Stormwind Bloodfeather Edited by: Stormwind Bloodfeather on 22/07/2008 03:23:28 Originally by: CCP Mitnal The point I was attempting to make was that there is active and ongoing moderation of the forums. Elsewhere in this thread there are complaints of a lack of moderation, when we point to examples of moderation it's either not enough or too heavy-handed. I'm sure residents of Crime & Punishment will be happy to add their voice on why they think that channel has become a mini-CAOD and how heavy-handed the moderation is there. Moderation is serious (and subjective) business. It will always be not enough or too much for any individual, my point is that there are dedicated individuals doing it on a daily basis. Special Agent Mitnal never lets the side down The other point to be made was that the perception of CAOD is that it's an unregulated mess. On the contrary you could argue that it's over-moderated and that our presence there is too much as shown by the amount of locked threads. I must be strange to enjoy the moderation process and get to read forums as part of a job and I hugely enjoy interacting in threads. At the heart of the process is making the experience that much more enjoyable, whether it be for a veteran player, new player, missioner, industrialist or POS warrior. We can all help improve the quality of the community with the quality of our posts. One only needs to look in New Citizens to see that the advice on offer there from veterans, devs, GMs and new players alike is highly appreciated. The forums may be better or worse than in the past but ultimately its improvement is in the hands of the people that post on them. I am just as guilty as others for starting /rant threads, and occasionally for posting some pretty flame based comments. Your right, as well as other posters that when it comes down to it, WE are responsible for what gets posted. If I see a thread that's full of fail, and respond stating as much, I've simply fed a troll. If I create one that's a rant (like the one you locked earlier today), then I have myself become a troll. The only thing to do then if I am to be a constructive member of the community, would be to not post or respond in threads or create threads like that. Unfortunatly, some of them just BEG responses, and some SCREAM the need to have their fragile world views ripped apart. While I understand what your saying, the implementation of it isn't so easy. I have always had a low tolerance for stupidity (even my own) and have never been one to hold back the /flame when it was needed. But i'll try to be more helpful and less STFO and GTFO. Storm wtf is STFO? I agree, I hate idiocey too.

Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2008.07.22 15:00:00 - [71] Originally by: CCP Mitnal Special Agent Mitnal never lets the side down A couple write-ups in Forum Crimes Weekly and it goes right to his head. Celebrities... Next we'll be seeing him in the gossip rags with Madonna. Move Over ARod - The Material Girl's got a new Bo Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail mods@ccpgames.com ~Saint

CCP Mitnal C C P	Posted - 2008.07.22 19:17:00 - [72] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Originally by: CCP Mitnal Special Agent Mitnal never lets the side down A couple write-ups in Forum Crimes Weekly and it goes right to his head. Celebrities... Next we'll be seeing him in the gossip rags with Madonna. Move Over ARod - The Material Girl's got a new Bo Fairly certain that I'm not moonlighting as the Yankees' third baseman Mitnal Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang Special Agent Mitnal; Saving the forums one thread at a time!

Stormwind Bloodfeather Minmatar Sogdian Traders Inc	Posted - 2008.07.22 19:43:00 - [73] Originally by: Tenacha Khan wtf is STFO? I agree, I hate idiocey too. errr um. a typo shoulda been STFU not STFO Storm In EVE, your only friend is your ship and it's weapons. All others are the enemy!
Zeba Minmatar Pator Tech School	Posted - 2008.07.22 20:32:00 - [74] Originally by: Forum Fanatic Originally by: CCP Prism X I'll have you know I haven't posted a single reply for quite some time now so there is no way I've been breaking any rules! Oh wait, you mean moderation of players? In that case carry on. But seriously, I think it's better that moderation errs on the side of less than more when it comes to players. You are capable of ignoring people you think you should ignore while you will never be able to make judgment like that on removed content. Besides, I think the forums have improved over the past year if anything, at least there are way fewer RMT trolls that catch my eyes. But it's all just a personal opinion. Much like the notion of when you're crossing the lines of those rules is also a personal opinion, so I stick with erring on less than more. So we'll just ignore the concensus that there is generally very poor community behaviour, and be done with it. What an appalling attitude to take. I guess that explains the almost relentless trolling/flaming in eve both on and off the servers. CCP don't care at all the type of community they foster. I shall be cancelling an account which will close on the 23rd. Looks like the only way to seek positive change is to take my subscription money elsewhere. Its the only standard that gets listened to. Anyone asking for my stuff is just another case in point. Your going to quit Eve the game because some random *****s like to post drivel on Eve the forums? Why!?* The game and the forums do not connect in any way past we have to use our ingame names to post with though even that can be bypassed with alts. You keep posting about the juvenile behavior on the forums but Whos the emo kid now refusing to eat his veggies cause they don't taste like chocholate whaa whaa whaa? And your stuff I do not want it. You couldn't possibly have enough to raise my net worth by even a fraction of a percent. Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Gonada now that they have destroyed that game, they leave and move on, and unfortunatly eve is next. We will troll and gank them out of the game. Survival of the fittest and all that. Well death of the weakest to be more accurate, but 'Darwinism' is such a catchy term we may as well continue abusing it But the survival of the fittest relies upon the death/exploitation of the weakest. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Valan The Fated	Posted - 2008.07.22 20:51:00 - [75] Originally by: CCP Prism X Besides, I think the forums have improved over the past year if anything, at least there are way fewer RMT trolls that catch my eyes. Thats a good thing is it? That all those that don't RMT have given up on CCP and have either left, grin and bear it but mostly just buy isk to get ships. With 0.0 and Empire overrun with entire alliances selling ISK. The entire of EVE is balanced on RMT now. Well done pat yourselves on the back. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
D'ceet Shadows of the Dead Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2008.07.23 03:42:00 - [76] Originally by: Faife Originally by: Zinras Well today i tried whining on the forums, and it failed, which annoyed me, How to to fix forums?! SUSPEND ACCT!!! I cant log in at all anymore.Will not pay for something i cant play! Super angry and dissapointed.. 4 mo. of this i think i have been more than patient! 4chan must be down... not only is it down, its getting DDoS'd
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.07.23 03:55:00 - [77] And sometimes the cheese doodles wear party hats and dance by the bonfire next to the ketchup in the old pickup. But once I was there over looking the beach with a cucumber salad and I saw a peculiar shape in the sky. In the moonlight, now I can't be certain but it appeared to be a flying tank pulled by mollusks, it drew near. when who other but CCP Mitnal's face did appear. I hadn't thought I drank that much beer. Thats when I shat myself. Everything went dark he said he has his list. I don't clearly recall the few hours after that, but I did learn squids is not for eats. Ever since that night when I look at the moon and hold my spoon I hear the clickclickclick of threads being locked.
Righteous Fury Slacker Industries	Posted - 2008.07.23 04:03:00 - [78] Originally by: CCP Mitnal Please note the report a post function above every post enables the community to effectively self-police itself by highlighting ones that you deem to break the rules. CAOD has a bad reputation but a quick glance over the last five pages or so will see how heavily it is moderated. This goes for the forums as a whole, one of our daily tasks is to go through each channel both to moderate them and to highlight worthy threads for the rest of the development team. So whilst we may miss a bad post from time to time, the Community Team as a whole gets through most channels, every day. If this is the case, can I get a confirmation that my last couple of CAOD troll threads were left open on purpose and put on display to the internal mod team, simply because they were funny as all hell? I'm only fishing for an ego boost
Buff Plankchest	Posted - 2008.07.23 04:19:00 - [79] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton And sometimes the cheese doodles wear party hats and dance by the bonfire next to the ketchup in the old pickup. But once I was there over looking the beach with a cucumber salad and I saw a peculiar shape in the sky. In the moonlight, now I can't be certain but it appeared to be a flying tank pulled by mollusks, it drew near. when who other but CCP Mitnal's face did appear. I hadn't thought I drank that much beer. Thats when I shat myself. Everything went dark he said he has his list. I don't clearly recall the few hours after that, but I did learn squids is not for eats. Ever since that night when I look at the moon and hold my spoon I hear the clickclickclick of threads being locked. Wow, good thing you didn't see the Lord Garmon... you'd have shat out your lungs
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2008.07.23 04:49:00 - [80] Originally by: Buff Plankchest Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton And sometimes the cheese doodles wear party hats and dance by the bonfire next to the ketchup in the old pickup. But once I was there over looking the beach with a cucumber salad and I saw a peculiar shape in the sky. In the moonlight, now I can't be certain but it appeared to be a flying tank pulled by mollusks, it drew near. when who other but CCP Mitnal's face did appear. I hadn't thought I drank that much beer. Thats when I shat myself. Everything went dark he said he has his list. I don't clearly recall the few hours after that, but I did learn squids is not for eats. Ever since that night when I look at the moon and hold my spoon I hear the clickclickclick of threads being locked. Wow, good thing you didn't see the Lord Garmon... you'd have shat out your lungs we save that for another night

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