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Kano Sekor
Amarr
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.07.21 11:30:00 -
[1]
Back in Rev when they nerfed the old school ECM did they overlook ECM drones or what? cause i use ECM drones as a get out of jail free card sure its only been in frig and cruiser battles, but wth when i release those babies wether they be light or meds wait two-three sec and hit the warp button and your out.
Its kind off like having a nano-ship but w/o the need for polys where another ship might lose i just lose 5 ecm drones instead. :D
DISCLAIMER: This is by no means op against two or more opponents as you will get raeped then. Or against smartbombing ships.
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Desu Sigs |
Aria Seniste
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Posted - 2008.07.21 11:42:00 -
[2]
They work very well against light ships (cruiser and below), not so much against battleships.
You basically get 5 1.5 strength (assuming you're using medium) chances to jam... every 5 seconds.
Most cruisers have 15~ish strength, so 5 10% chances. Not terrible odds. They'd be much worse if they cycled like normal ECM (every 20).
I think the jam time is only 5 seconds as well, as opposed to 20 (normal ECM).. but that's more than enough to warp out if you're already aligned. I find that by the time you target someone again, you're likely to get hit with another jam.
Then again, it's no different than flying say.. a scorpion. Whenever someone tries to tackle you solo, you just laugh, jam them, and continue on.
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Kano Sekor
Amarr
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.07.21 11:46:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Aria Seniste
I think the jam time is only 5 seconds as well, as opposed to 20 (normal ECM).. but that's more than enough to warp out if you're already aligned. I find that by the time you target someone again, you're likely to get hit with another jam.
I know you are wrong. And i know the bernoulli trials so ive made the math,calculated the odds and it seems correct and nice but my experience flying around and actually using them tells me otherwise i always get first cycle == jam.
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Desu Sigs |
Taco Raptorian
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Posted - 2008.07.21 12:41:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Taco Raptorian on 21/07/2008 12:42:02
Shh! Don't divert the attention of the nerf bat from the nanos. 
I think you are just having some lucky streaks and besides they take up both drone space and/or "drone in space" spots so no further balancing needed.
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Ignatious Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.21 12:44:00 -
[5]
I SERIOUSLY don't understand why people think ECM drones are even close to being overpowered. I have tested them to no end and found them to be horribly inconsistent. Sure, against a cruiser they are pretty decent. But when you get into BC and above I have NEVER gotten more than 2 jams in a 2 min time period. Not to mention the DPS you give up from not having 5 hammerhead II's (If your can fit 5 mediums).
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Rajere
No Trademark
The OSS
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Posted - 2008.07.21 12:47:00 -
[6]
don't fit mediums. or Larges for that matter.
NOTR
How to Fail at Eve
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Kano Sekor
Amarr
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.07.21 12:47:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
I SERIOUSLY don't understand why people think ECM drones are even close to being overpowered. I have tested them to no end and found them to be horribly inconsistent. Sure, against a cruiser they are pretty decent. But when you get into BC and above I have NEVER gotten more than 2 jams in a 2 min time period. Not to mention the DPS you give up from not having 5 hammerhead II's (If your can fit 5 mediums).
I guess my lack of BC and BS ship combat is the reason i feel they are a slight OP but if it is as you say and BC:s dont feel the wraith of the 5 x Med ECM drones i guess they are fine. But how is it in BS combat with 5 x Heavy ECM drones?
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Desu Sigs |
Kaileen Starsong
Amarr
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.21 12:55:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
I SERIOUSLY don't understand why people think ECM drones are even close to being overpowered. I have tested them to no end and found them to be horribly inconsistent. Sure, against a cruiser they are pretty decent. But when you get into BC and above I have NEVER gotten more than 2 jams in a 2 min time period. Not to mention the DPS you give up from not having 5 hammerhead II's (If your can fit 5 mediums).
Maybe you're unlucky.. or maybe it's me who's unlucky.
I'm flying ECCM'd BC, sensor strength is 35; guess what? I consistently get fights where I get jammed 2-3 times in a row by a flight of light ECMs 
My only actual gripe with ECM drones is that they allow one ship to have gank, tank and EW, which is not how it should really be imo.
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Kano Sekor
Amarr
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.07.21 12:59:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Kaileen Starsong
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
I SERIOUSLY don't understand why people think ECM drones are even close to being overpowered. I have tested them to no end and found them to be horribly inconsistent. Sure, against a cruiser they are pretty decent. But when you get into BC and above I have NEVER gotten more than 2 jams in a 2 min time period. Not to mention the DPS you give up from not having 5 hammerhead II's (If your can fit 5 mediums).
Maybe you're unlucky.. or maybe it's me who's unlucky.
I'm flying ECCM'd BC, sensor strength is 35; guess what? I consistently get fights where I get jammed 2-3 times in a row by a flight of light ECMs
My only actual gripe with ECM drones is that they allow one ship to have gank, tank and EW, which is not how it should really be imo.
gank,tank and EW im thinking rupture?... Well i wonder what is wrong when you get jammed by light ecm drones when you have ECCM:s the ECCM or the drones?
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Desu Sigs |
Rajere
No Trademark
The OSS
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Posted - 2008.07.21 13:04:00 -
[10]
you could have a sensor strength of 1 million doesn't matter, if you have enough light ecm drones on you you'll get jammed. There is a floor in the formula the game uses to calculate chance to jam, so regardless of how lopsided the jam vs sensor strength is, that little hornet ec-300 and his 1 point jam has the baseline chance to get a jam off.
NOTR
How to Fail at Eve
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Ignatious Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.21 13:16:00 -
[11]
I think that if you are getting jammed even when packing ECCM there is probably something else going on like a falcon or blackbird or something that you didn't see. But then again a single ECCM isn't as effective as I think they should be which is why a lot of people consider it a waste to fit. The other thing is that luck does have a lot to do with it. I don't doubt that sometimes whoever is using them goes on a lucky streak and you get jammed to hell. But on the other end of the spectrum I'm sure plenty of people get un-lucky and get no jams. I found the average with the mediums to be about 2 jams per 2 mins. I honestly think that is pretty decent when you consider the amount of DPS your giving up.
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Kaileen Starsong
Amarr
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.21 13:20:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Kaileen Starsong on 21/07/2008 13:23:44
Originally by: Kano Sekor
gank,tank and EW im thinking rupture?... Well i wonder what is wrong when you get jammed by light ecm drones when you have ECCM:s the ECCM or the drones?
Nah, it's pretty much every ship that can be setupped for gank and has a dronebay. I.e. Hurricane, Harb, Astarte.. you get the idea. Sure, on some ships like Deimos or gank Brutix ECM drones serve as a tank.. and they're fine on them, since they're dead if drones don't get a jam.
Thing is, ECM drones don't require any serious training SP-wise, they don't require any wits/skills to use, however they basically shut you down if they get a jam.. and you can do nothing about it, thanks to a RNG.
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
I think that if you are getting jammed even when packing ECCM there is probably something else going on like a falcon or blackbird or something that you didn't see. But then again a single ECCM isn't as effective as I think they should be which is why a lot of people consider it a waste to fit. The other thing is that luck does have a lot to do with it. I don't doubt that sometimes whoever is using them goes on a lucky streak and you get jammed to hell. But on the other end of the spectrum I'm sure plenty of people get un-lucky and get no jams. I found the average with the mediums to be about 2 jams per 2 mins. I honestly think that is pretty decent when you consider the amount of DPS your giving up.
Lol at the falcon/bb guesstimation 
On a more serious note.. 2 jams per 2 minutes means the jammed person is missing 40 seconds out of those 2 minutes.. 33% less time to fight.. actually more, since you have to retarget. Go figure if it's worth 100-150(light-meds) DPS. Not to mention that to achieve 100 dps with lights you need maxed out drones skills, while ECM drones require pretty much none.
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Kano Sekor
Amarr
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.07.21 13:36:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Kaileen Starsong
Go figure if it's worth 100-150(light-meds) DPS. Not to mention that to achieve 100 dps with lights you need maxed out drones skills, while ECM drones require pretty much none.
And not to mention the tactical advantage off being able disengage when a jam cycle hits.
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Desu Sigs |
Kaileen Starsong
Amarr
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.07.21 13:41:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kano Sekor
And not to mention the tactical advantage off being able disengage when a jam cycle hits.
Yeah, this actually hints to a possible solution of a problem. Make it so that ECM drones don't jam, rather make target lose lock. That makes them actual utility drones, instead of more effective offensive weaponry than combat drones are 
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Kano Sekor
Amarr
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.07.21 13:45:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kaileen Starsong
Originally by: Kano Sekor
And not to mention the tactical advantage off being able disengage when a jam cycle hits.
Yeah, this actually hints to a possible solution of a problem. Make it so that ECM drones don't jam, rather make target lose lock. That makes them actual utility drones, instead of more effective offensive weaponry than combat drones are
Well you should be able to get enough time to warp out atleast.
Not like ECM bursts or whatever their name is, i find em kind of useless.
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Desu Sigs |
fivetide humidyear
Gallente
EXCESS10N
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Posted - 2008.07.21 14:01:00 -
[16]
projected eccm is better than carrying your own (even overheated) racial in a small gang that isn't going to be too separated in a fight.
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Kano Sekor
Amarr
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.07.21 14:03:00 -
[17]
Originally by: fivetide humidyear
projected eccm is better than carrying your own (even overheated) racial in a small gang that isn't going to be too separated in a fight.
So instead of rr gangs we will se projected eccm gangs? PE gangs?
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Desu Sigs |
Ignatious Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.21 14:04:00 -
[18]
It really comes down to a trade off. My standard gank fit brutix puts out 697 DPS with 5 hammerhead II's. Without them it drops to 569. I consider giving up 128 DPS to have a chance to have a change (10 percent x5) not to be worth it. 128 DPS is a LOT of damage. If I KNEW the ECM's where going to jam that would be one thing. But since I don't I figure I have a better chance of killing whatever I'm fighting with that extra 128 DPS.
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fivetide humidyear
Gallente
EXCESS10N
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Posted - 2008.07.21 14:06:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Kano Sekor
So instead of rr gangs we will se projected eccm gangs? PE gangs?
probably :(
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Ignatious Mei
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Posted - 2008.07.21 14:06:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Kano Sekor
Originally by: fivetide humidyear
projected eccm is better than carrying your own (even overheated) racial in a small gang that isn't going to be too separated in a fight.
So instead of rr gangs we will se projected eccm gangs? PE gangs?
No reason for everyone in gang to fit one. Just bring along one or two http://www.eve-search.com/thread/820251/page/1#17 and watch ECM ships flee in terror.
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P'uck
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Posted - 2008.07.21 15:27:00 -
[21]
ec- drones have less hitpoint than combat drones of the same size, iirc they pop comparatively easy to smartbombs.
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Caractacus Potts
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Posted - 2008.07.21 16:56:00 -
[22]
Originally by: fivetide humidyear
projected eccm is better than carrying your own (even overheated) racial in a small gang that isn't going to be too separated in a fight.
This might seem true when looking at the raw numbers but is in fact false in practice.
A gang that relies on remote projected ECCM from gangmates will be easier to lock down than one fitted with the weaker on-board modules. While the projected ECCM gives a much larger boost to sensor strength, it also requires locking a friendly target. The first successful jam against your remote ECCM network starts a cascade of dropping sensor strengths.
To put it simply, once the person boosting your sensors gets jammed, you are going to be that much easier to jam also, leaving you unable to boost someone else's sensors, ect.
Projected ECCM really shines in boosting a critical asset that you know will be the focus of jamming, such as a carrier, logistics ship, your own ECM ship, or a sniper assigned specifically to taking out ECM boats. The idea is to try and buy your team a few extra critical seconds early on to neutralize the enemy ECM.
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Lance Fighter
Amarr
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Posted - 2008.07.21 17:45:00 -
[23]
Originally by: P'uck
ec- drones have less hitpoint than combat drones of the same size, iirc they pop comparatively easy to smartbombs.
Very true, a small smartbomb means that they die rather fast (something stupid like two cycles). Medium or large smartbombs are faster...
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adriaans
Amarr
The Movement
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Posted - 2008.07.21 17:57:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
It really comes down to a trade off. My standard gank fit brutix puts out 697 DPS with 5 hammerhead II's. Without them it drops to 569. I consider giving up 128 DPS to have a chance to have a change (10 percent x5) not to be worth it. 128 DPS is a LOT of damage. If I KNEW the ECM's where going to jam that would be one thing. But since I don't I figure I have a better chance of killing whatever I'm fighting with that extra 128 DPS.
uhmm.... my gank brutix goes just above 1k dps (including dmg drones), so your 'gank' fit aint that ganky really....
on topic though: I have a few recent encounters with ecm drones where i was actually perma jammed the entire fight... (thorax vs thorax, and thorax vs rupture), i started using them myself...and behold... they jam like mad...
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Support the introduction of Blaze M crystals for Amarr!
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Ong
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Posted - 2008.07.21 18:15:00 -
[25]
For god sake, every time some people loose a ship they want whatever was used by their opponent to be nurfed. If the developed actually listened to all the cry's of nerf we would be in ships that did no more then 100kms, webs that worked for 40km, with paper thin tanks and crap damage!!! For god sake if you loose a ship SUCK IT UP, if you cant afford to loose the ship, don't fly it.
The people that use ecm drones, as stated above loose dps, I use them on some ships I fly and I've had plenty of fights against cruisers and Bc's that they didnt work for the whole fight, If I would have had the extra dps from normal drones I may have won!
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Derek Sigres
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Posted - 2008.07.21 18:44:00 -
[26]
Originally by: adriaans
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
It really comes down to a trade off. My standard gank fit brutix puts out 697 DPS with 5 hammerhead II's. Without them it drops to 569. I consider giving up 128 DPS to have a chance to have a change (10 percent x5) not to be worth it. 128 DPS is a LOT of damage. If I KNEW the ECM's where going to jam that would be one thing. But since I don't I figure I have a better chance of killing whatever I'm fighting with that extra 128 DPS.
uhmm.... my gank brutix goes just above 1k dps (including dmg drones), so your 'gank' fit aint that ganky really....
on topic though: I have a few recent encounters with ecm drones where i was actually perma jammed the entire fight... (thorax vs thorax, and thorax vs rupture), i started using them myself...and behold... they jam like mad...
I'm curious how a medium gun toting gank fitted brutix (with fewer and smaller guns) can deliver 1k DPS. I'm not saying it can't happen because every time I think something like that I'm proven wrong but even with Void ammo, faction mag stabs and level 5 skills I dont' see how those numbers are possible. Care to share the fitting to free me from my ignorance?
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Reverend Mayhem
Caldari
State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.21 19:53:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Derek Sigres
I'm curious how a medium gun toting gank fitted brutix (with fewer and smaller guns) can deliver 1k DPS. I'm not saying it can't happen because every time I think something like that I'm proven wrong but even with Void ammo, faction mag stabs and level 5 skills I dont' see how those numbers are possible. Care to share the fitting to free me from my ignorance?
Overheating with full rack of neutrons, drones and 3 mag stabs gets you around 940-980ish range depending on skills. It's one of the new(er) crazes on here, to quote unsustainable dps figures. The only other way to get close is with officer MFS.
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Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2008.07.21 20:36:00 -
[28]
Does Eve involve more than 1v1 in frigates and cruisers?
Just wondering...
__________________________________________________
Sup brosef!
Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
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Bodhisattvas
Wife BEATERS
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Posted - 2008.07.21 20:46:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ignatious Mei
I think that if you are getting jammed even when packing ECCM there is probably something else going on like a falcon or blackbird or something that you didn't see. But then again a single ECCM isn't as effective as I think they should be which is why a lot of people consider it a waste to fit. The other thing is that luck does have a lot to do with it. I don't doubt that sometimes whoever is using them goes on a lucky streak and you get jammed to hell. But on the other end of the spectrum I'm sure plenty of people get un-lucky and get no jams. I found the average with the mediums to be about 2 jams per 2 mins. I honestly think that is pretty decent when you consider the amount of DPS your giving up.
Speaking from a recent previous engagement with a rax and
a drake, Me in pilgrim. Having just observed the pair
taking a stabber out in a belt. Drake with mwd,point and
web...yeah what tank !!
Anyhow I didn't manage to observe the hornet jamming
Drones..a measly 5 of them from the drake.
The same drones that basically had me perma jammed and I
was in a recon !!!!!
Sour icing was on the cake that the small chance I had I
was unable to break the lock from the drake with my vespa
ecm drones !!!
I can remember 2 other instances of hornet ecm drones
jamming me in my mega when pie humping on gate camps.
The math in them working is loaded in them jamming well
their original spec.
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Gimpb
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Posted - 2008.07.21 22:38:00 -
[30]
As it's random and in a large population, there's going to be someone out there that gets lucky and has it work for them many times in a row.
It seems you're that person, congrats.
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