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Niko medes Gallente Dark Dominion	Posted - 2008.07.21 18:52:00 - [1] some spoilers so if you havent read it dont read on.. but anyhow i have two questions: 1 - did the Jovian ship go through the wormhole at the end of the book or did it just get blown to bits by getting to close? 2 - was the Broker a Edheduanni? or just a really mean pod pilot? - Niko --------------------------------------
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.21 19:26:00 - [2] Edited by: Stitcher on 21/07/2008 19:26:44 Originally by: Niko medes 1 - did the Jovian ship go through the wormhole at the end of the book or did it just get blown to bits by getting to close? 2 - was the Broker a Edheduanni? or just a really mean pod pilot? 1 - blown apart by an enormous blast wave 2 - The Broker is The Broker. He's neither, really. That's two separate links, btw. People pay WAY too much attention to The Enheduanni, imo. It's like, they got mentioned once, it's not entirely certain whether or not they're actually canon, and people STILL yell "The Enheduanni!" every time somebody does... well, pretty much anything. The Broker did everything he did because he was a petty, vindictive man with a terminal vitoc addiction and no sense of restraint. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Niko medes Gallente Dark Dominion	Posted - 2008.07.21 19:38:00 - [3] k thanks man --------------------------------------
Niko medes Gallente Dark Dominion	Posted - 2008.07.21 19:39:00 - [4] another question Why did they end the book the way they did? with the jovian ship getting blown up? --------------------------------------
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.21 19:41:00 - [5] Edited by: Stitcher on 21/07/2008 19:41:29 To make the reader speculate and wonder about what could happen next, I imagine. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Uilliam Nebel Amarr 13th Udorian Rangers	Posted - 2008.07.21 20:59:00 - [6] Originally by: Stitcher People pay WAY too much attention to The Enheduanni, imo. It's like, they got mentioned once, it's not entirely certain whether or not they're actually canon, and people STILL yell "The Enheduanni!" every time somebody does... well, pretty much anything. They are canon though, as the Gallente officer in 'Theodicy' has her mind effected by them to see and hear those visions. And the 'laying' it all out manner with which that Jovian explains them. I think whether people like it or not, the Enheduanni are to stay, as trying to write them out would make the PF seem wishy washy. / "Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do." - Confucius, Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC.)
Sepherim Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2008.07.21 23:04:00 - [7] If there are Ehenduanni in this story, I would bet for Jamyl Sarum. Ordo Quaesitoris Forum
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.21 23:27:00 - [8] Originally by: Uilliam Nebel They are canon though, as the Gallente officer in 'Theodicy' has her mind effected by them to see and hear those visions. And the 'laying' it all out manner with which that Jovian explains them. I think whether people like it or not, the Enheduanni are to stay, as trying to write them out would make the PF seem wishy washy. Fine, so they're in. That doesn't mean people have to link them to EVERYTHING though. It's like rattling on about the Illuminati. Sure, they MIGHT exist, but complete influence over every facet of human life? I doubt it. The larger the population, the greater the range of random events that could derail a well-laid plan. The point I was making is that here's a MacGuffin that showed up ONCE in a single short story, have never been heard from since, and yet every last little thing in the EVE universe is picked over by people looking for an Enheduanni connection. It gets wearisome after a while. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Uilliam Nebel Amarr 13th Udorian Rangers	Posted - 2008.07.22 00:00:00 - [9] Originally by: Stitcher The point I was making is that here's a MacGuffin that showed up ONCE in a single short story, have never been heard from since, and yet every last little thing in the EVE universe is picked over by people looking for an Enheduanni connection. It gets wearisome after a while. On that I completely agree. However, the situation is a monster of it's own creation. Going back and reading Theodicy, when it does talk about the Enheduanni, and when they show their sleeper agents at work, it is presented in such a way to give exactly that suspicion you refer to. And people picked up on it, and now are always on the look out for some grand puppet master. I'm not saying it is good, or right, but with how that PF was presented, it kind of lead people to that mindset I think. / "Our greatest glory is not in never falling, but in getting up every time we do." - Confucius, Chinese philosopher & reformer (551 BC - 479 BC.)
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.22 01:42:00 - [10] Edited by: Stitcher on 22/07/2008 01:42:58 Originally by: Uilliam Nebel On that I completely agree. However, the situation is a monster of it's own creation. Going back and reading Theodicy, when it does talk about the Enheduanni, and when they show their sleeper agents at work, it is presented in such a way to give exactly that suspicion you refer to. And people picked up on it, and now are always on the look out for some grand puppet master. I'm not saying it is good, or right, but with how that PF was presented, it kind of lead people to that mindset I think. See, there's the thing. When the Enheduanni were involved in Theodicy, their interference wasn't so much "implied" as "stated". Not explicitly, but the hints were fairly unsubtle, and the whole framework for their involvement - not to mention a full explanation of their involvement - was included in the novella. Nothing - not Empyrean Age, not one of the various Chronicles and not a single shred of the various other tidbits of PF that have come out since then - has since even mentioned them, not even loosely. If we were conditioned by Theodicy to look for their involvement all over the place, then we were conditioned to do the equivalent of scan a board of blue LEDs and pick out the one green one. What people are instead doing is microscopically scanning every last LED on a solid blue board and saying "well, that one looks a little more green-ish than the others." - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.

Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.07.22 16:25:00 - [11] Edited by: Pottsey on 22/07/2008 16:26:21 ôNothing - not Empyrean Age, not one of the various Chronicles and not a single shred of the various other tidbits of PF that have come out since then - has since even mentioned them, not even loosely.ö They might not have been mentioned by name but you can link various things to them. A number of things have happened where the best explanation, in fact in some caseÆs the only explanation is the Enheduanni. Some of the things that happened in Empyrean Age can only be the Enheduanni nothing else really makes sense. Empyrean Age clearly has things going on in the background and there are lose connections to the Enheduanni. ôWhat people are instead doing is microscopically scanning every last LED on a solid blue board and sayingö Or they are putting two and two together. ItÆs not microscopically scanning to notice the Broker has access to vast resources and super advance technology beyond the 4 empires. Technology thatÆs not just very advance but he has been using for years. Giving that situation there is nothing wrong about speculation about the Enheduanni involvement with him. Add the advance Technology with comments from him like pod pilots where created for this war then it looks like there is more to him that it first appears. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Sepherim Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2008.07.22 17:22:00 - [12] Pottsey, following your logic, the Ehenduanni are behind the actions of the Amarr, the Caldari and the Gallente. Basically, The Broker, Jamyl and the Elders are three Deus Ex Machina, so they have to be touched by the ehenduanni to make sense, because they don't make them on their own... and the ehenduanni is the only thing we know that can be out there to solve those impossibilities. I think the novel was pretty obvious in most of its implications (maybe except the Jove at the end), so I think he would have made some reference to the ehenduanni if they were playing a part. Ordo Quaesitoris Forum
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.22 19:58:00 - [13] Originally by: Pottsey They might not have been mentioned by name but you can link various things to them. A number of things have happened where the best explanation, in fact in some caseÆs the only explanation is the Enheduanni. Some of the things that happened in Empyrean Age can only be the Enheduanni nothing else really makes sense. I disagree. About the only location where I'd even see room for the Enheduanni at all would be (SPOILER!) the interception and alteration of Jamyl Sarum's neural data stream, and even then there's nothing there to explicitly indite them, whereas the last time they were mentioned the connections were pretty clearly stated. Quote: Or they are putting two and two together. ItÆs not microscopically scanning to notice the Broker has access to vast resources That's because he's the goddamn Broker, not because he's an Enheduanni agent. Have you even read the chronicles about him? Quote: and super advance technology beyond the 4 empires. Technology thatÆs not just very advance but he has been using for years. Where the hell did this come from? The only really advanced piece of technology I ever saw him use was his little nanite murder weapon, and even that's well within the scope of ordinary New Eden tech - armour repair systems are nanite-based after all, and the Amarr invented those independently LONG before they first encountered the Jove. It's just as easy to program a nanite to deconstruct as to repair. Quote: Add the... comments from him like pod pilots where created for this war then it looks like there is more to him that it first appears. Or he was just being cynical. I really do think people are desperately hunting for connections that don't exist here. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Sepherim Amarr Ordo Quaesitoris	Posted - 2008.07.22 20:07:00 - [14] Originally by: Stitcher I disagree. About the only location where I'd even see room for the Enheduanni at all would be (SPOILER!) the interception and alteration of Jamyl Sarum's neural data stream, and even then there's nothing there to explicitly indite them, whereas the last time they were mentioned the connections were pretty clearly stated. I agree, that's why I think she would be the only possible Ehenduanni-influenced of all, as I said in my first post in this topic. Quote: That's because he's the goddamn Broker, not because he's an Enheduanni agent. Have you even read the chronicles about him? He does have a wealth that goes waaaaay beyond any lone human could afford on his own, though, but mostly because he's a Deus Ex Machina. Basicall, power and influence beyond logic, only so he can further the book plot in the designed way. Ordo Quaesitoris Forum
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.07.24 07:15:00 - [15] ôWhere the hell did this come from? The only really advanced piece of technology I ever saw him use was his little nanite murder weapon, and even that's well within the scope of ordinary New Eden tech ûô What about having multiply clones active at once, being able to turn someone into someone else including appearance and voice? ôThat's because he's the goddamn Broker, not because he's an Enheduanni agent. Have you even read the chronicles about him?ö Yes and even before the Enheduanni some of us suspected he got that way by backing from a large organisation. I believe itÆs too much for 1 person to do without a massive corp infrastructure backing him. In my mind the Broker isnÆt really one lone person working but a massive corp of sorts like the Angel Cartel, only more in the background or he works for someone. He must have a large base of operations someplace with lots of staff if not more than one base. ôThe Broker, Jamyl and the Elders are three Deus Ex Machina, so they have to be touched by the ehenduanni to make sense, because they don't make them on their own... and the ehenduanni is the only thing we know that can be out there to solve those impossibilities.ö I am not going say itÆs the Enheduanni for sure but to me they make the most sense right now. How did the Elders come back from the dead? What happened to Jamyl for now can only be explained by the Enheduanni unless you believe in god or another advance race. How did the Amarr see the see though the advance Jove cloaked objects with ease? How did psi powers work something only the Enheduanni are known to have. The Broker is the last likely to be linked to the Enheduanni but something somehow infected the Broker which could be them. We still need to explain his advance technology and how he got so powerful. Where did the technology come from? Which I think is most likely because we works for a large corp or organisation in New Eden. ôPottsey, following your logic, the Ehenduanni are behind the actions of the Amarr, the Caldari and the Gallente.ö Considering whom the Enheduanni are and how they operate that makes sense. Why would the Enheduanni suddenly vanish? Why would they stop using high ranking government agents that have been working? Considering how far the Enheduanni worked up the Government treesÆ 100 +years ago they should be by now in a position to infiltrate all parts of Government. Personally I think Jamyl is one of their plans to infiltrate and control the Amarr Empire. ôthere's nothing there to explicitly indite them, whereas the last time they were mentioned the connections were pretty clearly stated.ö Things going on in background are not meant to be explicitly stated. Organisations like the Enheduanni should leave us thinking was it them or not. They donÆt need to be explicitly indicted to be them everytime. What if the one time the Enheduanni where explicitly mentioned it was the exception and every time before and after they have been hidden the background? Perhaps the writerÆs decided the Enheduanni needed to be more in the background. Or they only made direct reference to the Enheduanni as to many people were missing the hints at more going on in the background. The only way we are going to know for sure is to wait and see how the story evolves, get a direct response from the writer or take a peak at the Eve Bible. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Kai Zion The Zion Accounts	Posted - 2008.07.24 10:16:00 - [16] Was re-reading some stuff today and... Quote: ôThere is something else,ö added Matuno, leaning even closer. ôThe Jovian and your brother started looking through station's logs as soon as they arrived. Veniel pointed to something on the screen and said very audibly, æWithout question, that is Admiral Sulei Manatir. Now, look at the hooded female surrounded by the Amarr bodyguards.' Your brother looked very surprised, almost shocked, and then said 'Veniel, are you sure that's her?' The Jovian answered that he was æcertain of it'. Then your brother re-entered the hub and went back to his ship.ö Mattias blinked. ôBack to his ship?ö ôYes. Veniel is still here, just outside in the concourse, still pouring through the logs. Tell me, Mattiasàdo you know who this hooded female is that they were referring to?ö Mattias said he honestly had no idea, and shrugged. Matuno took one step closer to him. The Minmatar Brutor towered over Mattias, and was almost twice his weight. ôI certainly hope you'll tell me if you know.ö Mattias was slightly unnerved, and stepped to the side. ôOf course, Matuno. I'llàsee what I can find out.ö As he took a step forward, Matuno lowered a giant hand onto his shoulder, preventing him from exiting the hub. ôMattiasàif it is her, then you know how personal it is with me.ö Mattias looked up at him. ôI know it is, Matuno. It's probably personal for a lot of other Minmatar's as well. But now is not the time, even if it's who you think it is. So, if you'll please excuse me, I need to get back to the business of trying to keep us alive.ö Source is the short story Forsaken Ruins It's one of a few pieces of the puzzle I've noticed...
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.24 12:37:00 - [17] Edited by: Stitcher on 24/07/2008 12:41:07 Quote: What about having multiply clones active at once, being able to turn someone into someone else including appearance and voice? Why would having multiple clones active at once be beyond New Eden tech? If we have cloning at all, plus the ability to copy our brain patterns, then the only thing stopping us from uploading into multiple bodies as well would be laws, sa*uards and our own sense of "that's really creepy." Looking like someone else including appearance and voice? That's EASY. Every high-quality clone in the galaxy is run up out of human cadavers, and then surgically altered to look like the clone's present occupant. Cosmetic surgery in New Eden can easily alter a cloned body to look like a specific person. Quote: Yes and even before the Enheduanni some of us suspected he got that way by backing from a large organisation. Would ten thousand of his own clones, all of them on their own geniuses at market manipulation and high-profit, low-risk shady business ventures with profit margins of billions of ISK suffice? Besides, if he's rich enough to buy out Caldari Constructions wholesale, I daresay he's rich enough to afford his own private outpost hidden somewhere in the black, plus staff to run it. Quote:** Things going on in background are not meant to be explicitly stated. Organisations like the Enheduanni should leave us thinking was it them or not. They donÆt need to be explicitly indicted to be them everytime. What if the one time the Enheduanni where explicitly mentioned it was the exception and every time before and after they have been hidden the background? And what if (and I know this is just a crazy shot in the dark here ) the reason they've never been explicitly mentioned since was because they weren't involved? This is classic conspiracy theorist stuff, and it hinges on a known glitch in human reasoning. As a rule of thumb, I tend to very vigorously apply Occam's Razor here - if there's a comparatively simple explanation (the Broker is just mad, rich and powerful enough to run hundreds of clones of himself simultaneously, and that the most advanced technology he uses is well within the limits of ordinary New Eden stuff, albeit a bit exclusive, and his whole reason for manipulating the cluster into interstellar war was a petty crusade to utterly destroy the life and philosophies of the one man who ever dared to not give him exactly what he wanted) - and a not-so simple explanation (The Broker is all of the above, PLUS he's an active but possibly unwitting agent on behalf of a secretive force of either alien or transhuman conspirators whose involvement is nigh-undetectable even to him, whose motive for steering the human race constantly towards the path of violence and death seems to be "because that's what the Enheduanni do", who may or may not have provided him with access to hyper-advanced technology that is identical in every way to technology readily available in the rest of New Eden.) Then I'm going to have to go with the first one every time. Now, I'm not denying their involvement entirely - like I said, there is room for it - what I'm SAYING is that some people are too quick to assume that they're involved everywhere and in everything. They should, in my opinion, be a "last resort" theory, not the first conclusion people jump to every time. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Zekarus Caldari MAIDS	Posted - 2008.07.24 13:46:00 - [18] Originally by: Stitcher Now, I'm not denying their involvement entirely - like I said, there is room for it - what I'm SAYING is that some people are too quick to assume that they're involved everywhere and in everything. They should, in my opinion, be a "last resort" theory, not the first conclusion people jump to every time. Now, Stitcher, what line of work are you in? Have you considered becoming a scientist, if you are not one already? You possess traits and qualities that would make a damn fine one. ----------------- MAIDS. Now with black, frilly uniforms.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.07.24 16:56:00 - [19] ôWhy would having multiple clones active at once be beyond New Eden tech? If we have cloning at all, plus the ability to copy our brain patterns, then the only thing stopping us from uploading into multiple bodies as well would be laws, sa*uards and our own sense of "that's really creepy."ö Up until relatively recently, it was impossible to make a clone without destroying the original mind. I was under the impression the Broker had been doing this a lot longer than everyone else, before the tech was developed. Cloning isnÆt 100% either cloning on the scale would have large amounts of memory loss over time and your going get faulty scans which destroy the clone and lose data since the last backup. ôEvery high-quality clone in the galaxy is run up out of human cadavers, and then surgically altered to look like the clone's present occupant. Cosmetic surgery in New Eden can easily alter a cloned body to look like a specific person.ö The Broker did was far beyond just cosmetic surgery he altered the genetics right down to the blood to match another person. ThatÆs the bit that is advance over new Eden tech. ItÆs how he is able to pretend to be people he is not and get past security checks. Clones are not generic batchÆs waiting for hosts. You have a clone made from several tissue samples. A clone is linked to yourself based on your DNA. The Broker though somehow can inset his brain scan into clones of other peoples DNA. Well it sounds more like he makes a clone of himself then alters it to match the other person. ôAnd what if (and I know this is just a crazy shot in the dark here ) the reason they've never been explicitly mentioned since was because they weren't involved?ö The problem is if you assume they are never involved and donÆt look into it youÆre never going to find out when they are involved. Yes itÆs true they might not be involved but when things happen when the only thing that makes sense from what we know is that they are involved. Then I am going to assume itÆs them until I get better data. What happened to Jamyl only makes sense to me if I assume the Enheduanni are behind it. As the Enheduanni are the only ones with the tech, motive and desire to do it that I am aware of. ô- and a not-so simple explanation (The Broker is all of the above, PLUS he's an active but possibly unwitting agent on behalf of a secretive force of either alien or transhuman conspirators whose involvement is nigh-undetectable even to him,ö To me thatÆs the 2nd one is the simpler explanation. Put it like this. Which is simpler? 1 man with some clones that die in short amount of time earning more cash and with more resourceÆs then mega corps with trillions of people, countless planets, factoryÆs, sales teams, shops e.c.t Or 1 Man backed or manipulated by a advance powerful race or mega corp with countless resoureceÆs? The first one isnÆt simple as the logistics and cost behind having 100Æs of clones active at once each dying in a very short amount of time is a nightmare. ItÆs anything but simple. I donÆt see how 100Æs of clones can match mega corps made up of billions or trillions of people. He has to be backed by a mega corp or hidden race. Unless he is the CEO of one of the mega corps. ôWould ten thousand of his own clones, all of them on their own geniuses at market manipulation and high-profit, low-risk shady business ventures with profit margins of billions of ISK suffice?ö** No because that would cost 10Æs of billions per week to maintain if not trillions. Not to mention the logistic nightmare of it all. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.07.24 16:57:00 - [20] ôwhat I'm SAYING is that some people are too quick to assume that they're involved everywhere and in everything. They should, in my opinion, be a "last resort" theory, not the first conclusion people jump to every time.ö I can agree to that. But you sound like your writing them off as a possibility when they are the last resort. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)

Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.24 18:56:00 - [21] Originally by: Pottsey Up until relatively recently, it was impossible to make a clone without destroying the original mind. I was under the impression the Broker had been doing this a lot longer than everyone else, before the tech was developed. It destroys the original brain, yes, but why couldn't you inject copies of the data into TWO clones, as opposed to just the one? Quote: Cloning isnÆt 100% either cloning on the scale would have large amounts of memory loss over time and your going get faulty scans which destroy the clone and lose data since the last backup. So you restore from the last backup. The Broker's behaviour indicates that he has an extreme case of capsule dementia, presumably brought on over time by inaccuracies in the scanning and duplication process. Quote: The Broker did was far beyond just cosmetic surgery he altered the genetics right down to the blood to match another person. ThatÆs the bit that is advance over new Eden tech. ItÆs how he is able to pretend to be people he is not and get past security checks. Actually, that bit's also done to regular clones, otherwise the neural upload wouldn't take efficiently. "Maturing" a clone takes several months, and part of that process is a complete transplant of the genetic data of their intended user to account for the minor physiological differences between bloodlines. Quote: Clones are not generic batches waiting for hosts. Yes they are, actually: Quote: Culturing a clone takes several months, but all clone stations store generic clones that are only put to use when a client buys it. Quote: Put it like this. Which is simpler? 1 man with some clones that die in short amount of time earning more cash and with more resourceÆs then mega corps with trillions of people, countless planets, factoryÆs, sales teams, shops e.c.t Or 1 Man backed or manipulated by a advance powerful race or mega corp with countless resoureceÆs? The first one isnÆt simple as the logistics and cost behind having 100Æs of clones active at once each dying in a very short amount of time is a nightmare. It's also a recent development. The Broker's deteriorative condition was the result of a complete top-to-bottom incurable infection of his cloning system with Vitoxin (don't ask me how that works and why he couldn't just start deriving clone bodies from an uninfected template, you'd have to ask TonyG). I think it's safe to assume that for the vast bulk of his career, his clones were as stable as those of any regular capsuleer. Quote: He has to be backed by a mega corp or hidden race. Unless he is the CEO of one of the mega corps. Which is a distinct possibility. Nevertheless, I disagree. The Broker's supposed to be an absolute genius at profiteering. The combined earning power of several thousand brilliantly talented parasites would be disproportionate to their numbers. Remember, lone capsuleers who really work at it are quite able to generate hundreds of billions of ISK per quarter in their own right. Spread that across, say, ten-thousand apparent individuals all working as one efficient unit, and you have an "individual" with an effective annual earning power measured in trillions of ISK. Especially, as seems likely, if he holds shares in several different corporations and megacorps all over the cluster. Quote: No because that would cost 10Æs of billions per week to maintain if not trillions. Not to mention the logistic nightmare of it all. Would it? a decent clone is only four million ISK. Under normal conditions, if he only lost one a month or so, the upkeep costs would be negligible, especially if he earns, say, two hundred billion a week on a bad week. The vitoxin infection would undercut his profit margin, certainly, but not destroy it entirely. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.24 18:58:00 - [22] Originally by: Pottsey ôwhat I'm SAYING is that some people are too quick to assume that they're involved everywhere and in everything. They should, in my opinion, be a "last resort" theory, not the first conclusion people jump to every time.ö I can agree to that. But you sound like your writing them off as a possibility when they are the last resort. "Last resort" means you only turn to that theory after literally EVERY OTHER AVENUE OF HYPOTHESIS has been disproven, and even then you assume that it is not the case. So long as there remains a single logical argument in favour of a simpler theory, then the last resort is ignored as a potential explanation. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.07.24 20:02:00 - [23] ôIt destroys the original brain, yes, but why couldn't you inject copies of the data into TWO clones, as opposed to just the one?ö Depends on how the data is handled which is rather unclear. I used to think it was buffered in almost real time as there was too much data to store. But really I have no idea how it works, if it is stored then I see no reason two copies cannot be made. Then again I thought with new cloning methods itÆs stored not buffered. Pretty sure there have been cases of people making backups that are weeks old and using them in Eon. EDIT: I seem to recall one pod pilot in Eon getting killed and losing week(s) worth of memory due to an old clone. (He got shot in the head in a star base without the POD pilot implants in the neck). ôActually, that bit's also done to regular clones, otherwise the neural upload wouldn't take efficiently.ö But the Broker does it without making a new clone. He goes in the machine then comes out different with the body genetics changed to match the new target. There is no indication that you can clone someone elseÆs body with their DNA and jump into it that I can see. It more hints towards your clone has to match your body for the brain to accept it. But the whole process is rather unclear. It would be nice for a more detailed cloning article thatÆs up-to-date with newest technology. That old cloning article as I am sure you know is before the days of jump clones being possible e.c.t A lot of the old cloning lore seems to contradict or at last not match the new lore and it doesnt match what happens in newer storys with clones. ôYes they are, actually:ö No you need several tissue samples. ItÆs not a case of you die and they pick a random body of the self to clone you into. At the time of purchase, the customer undergoes a thorough examination and several tissue samples are taken. This is then used to construct a clone of the customerö ôCulturing a clone takes several months, but all clone stations store generic clones that are only put to use when a client buys it.ö When I said clones are not generic batches waiting for hosts to clone into. I meant you donÆt die and clone into a generic clone which is then changed to look like you. ôI think it's safe to assume that for the vast bulk of his career, his clones were as stable as those of any regular capsuleer.ö If his clones where stable and he has more than one it begs the question how did all the clones get infected? How did all the backups and master copies get infected? How did all the minor clones on missions get infected so no clean template? If he has multiply clones active at once surly he would have one to fall back on thatÆs clean. Unless he somehow got infected but no symptoms for years. Would be nice to see a short story on this. ôWould it? a decent clone is only four million ISK. Under normal conditions, if he only lost one a month or so, the upkeep costs would be negligible, especially if he earns, say, two hundred billion a week on a bad week.ö Four million isk for a decent clone, not in my book thatÆs a very poor low end clone. New pilots need small clones like that, but older pilots like me or the Broker need way more. Assuming the Broker has been a pod pilot at least as long as me and assuming he has a vast amount of knowledge and keeps high grade clones your talking 20 million per clone at the minimum perhaps a lot more depending on his age. He is a highly skilled pod pilot who can fly capital ships. I hardly think a 4mill clone will cover his knowledge. If he is as smart as you say he must need a very high end clone. Destroy his profits, I guess it depends on how many clones he has active. I still find it more likely he has a team or two working for him, over doing everything himself. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.07.24 20:04:00 - [24] Edited by: Pottsey on 24/07/2008 20:05:10 "Last resort" means you only turn to that theory after literally EVERY OTHER AVENUE OF HYPOTHESIS has been disproven, and even then you assume that it is not the case. So long as there remains a single logical argument in favour of a simpler theory, then the last resort is ignored as a potential explanation.ö But we have done that with Jamyl and before getting to the last resort the only thing we are left with that makes sence is the Enheduanni. The simplest theory that fits are the Enheduanni, it makes the most sense. The last resort to me is that god is real in Eve and God changed Jamyl, she really is the chosen one but I cannot accept that for now. A lot of what happened to Jamyl doesnÆt just match up with what the Enheduanni do, but the Enheduanni are the only ones with the known technology to pull it off. There are no simpler logical theoryÆs that fit better that I can see. With the Broker there are simpler theorys and I agree with you there that the Enheduanni are not likely to be involed. Unless they infacted him but then we are left wondering why. Without a why its not likely they did it. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Stitcher Caldari Duty.	Posted - 2008.07.24 20:30:00 - [25] Originally by: Pottsey ôWould it? a decent clone is only four million ISK. Under normal conditions, if he only lost one a month or so, the upkeep costs would be negligible, especially if he earns, say, two hundred billion a week on a bad week.ö Four million isk for a decent clone, not in my book thatÆs a very poor low end clone. New pilots need small clones like that, but older pilots like me or the Broker need way more. Assuming the Broker has been a pod pilot at least as long as me and assuming he has a vast amount of knowledge and keeps high grade clones your talking 20 million per clone at the minimum perhaps a lot more depending on his age. He is a highly skilled pod pilot who can fly capital ships. I hardly think a 4mill clone will cover his knowledge. If he is as smart as you say he must need a very high end clone. Destroy his profits, I guess it depends on how many clones he has active. I still find it more likely he has a team or two working for him, over doing everything himself. Okay, let's assume you're right, and he requires 20 million ISK per clone, which he replaces on a (say) weekly basis due to his condition. And let's assume I'M right and he runs ten thousand clones of himself at the same time. That works out to two hundred billion ISK a week. I agree that's a little expensive, so I'm going to drop the number of his active clones by a factor of ten, to a mere thousand. That makes his weekly running cost a mere twenty billion, which is probably a little more manageable, especially if we consider that, because he DEFINITELY has a majority share in Caldari Constructions, it's a safe bet that he holds significant shares in other Caldari corporations and megacorps. And that's just in Caldari space. If he also holds options in corporations affiliated with the other empires, then his dividends from those investments alone would be collosal. - Lt. Verin "Stitcher" Tarn-Hakatain.
Pottsey Enheduanni Foundation	Posted - 2008.07.24 20:35:00 - [26] It certainly would have been doable in the early years. But when is the tipping point? When do the clones last such a short amount of time he cannot afford the upkeep of so many active? Less active mean less income, less income mean even less active. We need more facts. ____ Telltale sign of their presence is non-linear teleportation (www.eve-online.com/races/theodicy/Theodicy_All.pdf)
Istvaan Shogaatsu Caldari Guiding Hand Social Club	Posted - 2008.07.25 01:53:00 - [27] Originally by: Pottsey ôWhere the hell did this come from? The only really advanced piece of technology I ever saw him use was his little nanite murder weapon, and even that's well within the scope of ordinary New Eden tech ûô What about having multiply clones active at once, being able to turn someone into someone else including appearance and voice? ôThat's because he's the goddamn Broker, not because he's an Enheduanni agent. Have you even read the chronicles about him?ö Yes and even before the Enheduanni... You don't have to be the broker to turn people into other people. I do it all the time.

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